Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

I bought this postcard, years ago, it was described as Malay Sultans.

I don't recognise any of these chaps as Malay Sultans ! Do you ?

I guess the picture was taken between the wars, probably 1930s

any help would be welcomed.

_________________
Hatter

They all look very Gilbert & Sullivan

This is a hard one as there are no western garments to go by and I don't think Sultans clothes or military uniforms changed that much as to pinpoint a time frame.

What about the last Sultan on the right, he has a patch or medal on his left side. Does anybody recognise this?

try identifying the military chaps. There cannot be that many high ranking British officers that the Sultans could look down on?

Are some of the English wearing naval uniforms? And is
the photo taken on the deck of a ship? If so, that would
rule out quite a number of locations.

Is he Lawrence of Malaysia?

I believe it is on a ship but I doubt that narrows it down at all. The only 'old' picture I have come across did not help. There was a decoration somewhat similar to that shown but the image is not clear enough to be sure. The person wearing it was named as Sultan Idris of Perak but the snap was taken in 1897.

Perhaps the headgear might help Anyone with stamps of the Malay states narrow it down from that?.

It seems there have 'always' been nine sultans with one named as King but it would probably take a lot of research to identify faces. Best of luck.

_________________
Here to learn
Here to enjoy

I looked at the uniforms but you can't see the pips and the one at the front doesn't have as much bling on his chest that I would have expected for a high rank.

I thought they were on a ship but, fat chance finding out anything about what and where that is.

Lack of "bling" and jodpurs pith helmets etc suggests pre WW, with planking and rank unlikely to be less than a capital ship.
from Lawrence of the Isthmus

Is there anything on the reverse of the postcard, such as printers' details, which may add a clue

Thank you all for comments + questions.

it looks like it was taken on the deck of ship, could be in any harbour anywhere.

yes the military uniforms look British 19202 - 1930s and the white uniforms could be Royal Navy. Its the chaps in the turbans and similar headgear who are the questions. The Military are wearing pith helmets but those were worn in all tropical areas.

I had checked the 1930 - 1950 stamps of Malaya which show the various Sultans but couldn't match any of them. Hence this thread, and sadly no printer's imprint / no town name / no stamp and no postmark on the reverse.

_________________
Hatter

I think the most productive result will come from contacting
an organization of collectors of Malayan/Commonwealth insignia,
medals, and decorations; there's bound to be a group somewhere.

No doubt they can immediately identify the 10-sided (?)
sunburst type device on the nearest Malayan's chest, and if
it is a big deal, even find a list of persons who have received it,
and when, and from whom. So start Googling.

The military in Malaysia might just know too, or a Professor
of military history, etc., etc. That doodad is the KEY.

Three of the Malay gentlemen seem to be wearing identical decorations on ribbons around their necks. That suggests to me that they are the Sultans; the others are retainers.

Could this have been the aftermath of some decoration conferring ceremony? Did a royal yacht visit Malaya during the 1920s or 1930s?

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Just a bet. I think that "Shorty" will be the key doodad. Cant have been many high ranking officers of such short statute, and I think identifying him, or the naval comander will be the key.
So come on Military historians, help be the first to pin it down, before the Sultans are identified.

I was looking for those medals for the best part of yesterday (I don't have a LIFE) and haven't had any luck YET! I'll plod along for a while, might get lucky

It might be post-1917.

The "sultan" (I'm not convinced the subjects are Malay) on the right appears to be wearing a star denoting membership of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire. I don't think it is a GBE or KBE (they are bigger stars), but it may be a CBE.

The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire was established by George V in 1917.

It looks like a formal ceremony photograph.

Maybe the three guys in the front were all being presented their medals on ribbons around their necks?

I don't think it's a formal ceremony photograph; I think it's
an afterthought. If the honorees are Malay, you don't make
them come to you (on your ship), you go to them. This may
be the last photo-op before sailing away.

Also, the CBE is in the form of a cross (now, at least), not
a sunburst.

And, everyone's wearing "street" clothes.

Finally, the reason I brought up the "shipboard" issue in the
first place is that it rules OUT a lot of places (where a big
ship can't go). For instance, chances are good that it's not
Kuala Lumpur.

There is one other interesting point in the photo -- there
do not appear to be any Chinese persons present. Odd!!

This image does not solve the mystery but it does emphasise how difficult it is to research such things.

This is the Sultan of Johor, taken in the 1950s. He was Sultan from 1895 so is well and truly in the frame for the period under question.

He received at least 19 medals from about 12 different countries or states. I can identify one or two of those he is wearing (including the KBE) but there is no 10 pointed star as in the postcard. One of his awards even has 16 points.

Onwards Muslim Soldiers

By the way, I think that in Australia my friend is more likely to be called Lofty than Shorty.

_________________
Here to learn
Here to enjoy

Yow! Wouldn't you hate to be his drycleaner??

I'd lay long odds that the two bemedalled gentlemen on the right are Malays, and I wouldn't be surprised if the third was, too.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

OK, I have written the "Muzium Negara" in Kuala Lumpur,
for possible information, and enclosed the photograph.

wow

thank you for writing to the Museum, that is very kind and helpful of you, I look forward to their reply.

I have suspected that these 'Sultans' are not Malay, because I cannot match the faces to the known Sultans of the 'Between the wars' years, as on their stamps.

Like Crosscrescent I thought they might be Indian. Which also ties in with British military / ship visit / medals in that time.

The photo posted by 'Kevin' is Sultan Ibrahim of Johore, looking serious as on his 1955 Diamond jubilee stamp.
He liked Military uniforms, and medals, he was Sultan 1895 - 1959. His grandson is the present Sultan.

_________________
Hatter

I am 99.99% sure the turban guys aren't Malays nor South East Asians.

The uniformed guys make up of 'white' so probably Navy; there are also another group whose uniform appear to be 'tropical/expedition' khaki - army. The colar braids on the khaki group doesn't come across as British unless 19th Century?? Too bad not a single revolver can be seen which could have helped narrow the possibility.

The deck of the ship has what looks like wooden planks so the 'ship' is light (river/small gunboat?); if such a ship is sufficient to attract a visit from a high level chieftain then the photo is in some far flung colonial region in late 19th C. or very early 20th Century.

I suggest the turban guys are either Yemen/Aden(ese) or Omanese/South Arabia. If you look at the stamps from Aden (1937,1938-48)and Oman, the turban comes close.
I see one distinctive weapon, the Aden knive, worn by the the stiff and stern looking chap right to the 'leader' in white.

_________________
Stick with stamps

I have not heard from the National Museum of Malaysia yet.

Also, I was looking at the shoes. Are all the natives wearing
English-style shoes, except the main guy?

yes, all visible footwear is 'european' style. This might be a status thing, or even fashion (!)

the Aden / Yemen suggestion is feasible or up the coast at Zanzibar.

Sultan Kalif bin Harub of Zanzibar had stamps 1926 - 1936 showing him looking like the central chap in the dark robe and white belt

_________________
Hatter

Zanzibar sounds a good place to start.

What about Sultan Seyyid Hamoud-bin-Mohammed bin Said

He was Sultan 1896-1902.



His beard matches the one worn by the guy on the left

For Tony---I was reading about Zanzibar, and found this little
paragraph about Heligoland:

In 1886, Britain and Germany signed a treaty according to which the territory of the Sultanate of Zanzibar on the African continent was split up between the Germans and the British; the island of Zanzibar itself, with the island of Pemba was to remain independent.

In 1890, Germany and Britain signed another treaty. Germany recognized Zanzibar and Pemba as located within the British sphere of interest, and ceded German claims over WITULAND, BENADIR and UGANDA in exchange for the much smaller and less populated island of HELIGOLAND, located in the North Sea, as well as the CAPRIVI STRIP linking German South West Africa with the Zambezi river.
===============

Hatter can you scan and host at the full 800 size we allow?

Then all detail will be 40% larger than you have given us here!

had another go at scanning as requested, as large as possible, trimmed a bit at the sides but it is the guys in the middle who are the puzzle



on my screen this makes the picture larger than in real life

I think the photo is later than 1902, which means not the Zanzibar Sultan who died in 1902, but still possiblely a later Sultan from there

_________________
Hatter

The 4th figure from the right (English, just the head showing)
seems to be wearing the same 10-sided emblem on his helmet
as the "main" Sultan is wearing on his chest. Now the English
soldier/sailor was not awarded this device to wear on his hat,
surely.

So is it some sort of regimental insignia, and the Sultan and
friends are allies or even members?

here's the Zanzibar's Sultan on the stamp :



He's not the man on the left but his scimitar looks like those worn by the central and the right guys.
I don't think these swords to be from Malaysia.

Matt

I decided to see if I could find information from the military perspective and just hope that might lead to the guests of honour being identified.

I will be surprised if the photo is not taken on the deck of a capital warship. The planks used for decking and the small amount of rigging support this thought. The battle cruiser HMS Hood was launched in 1918 and her planks were made from teak. Having said that she was capable of being deployed to areas ranging all the way from Zanzibar, through to India via Aden and down to what is now Indonesia.

The reason I think it is a large ship is that the military officers on board include Royal Marines and they are unlikely to be on smaller vessels.

The two men on the extreme right are from the Royal Navy and the others at the rear, behind the army officers, are Royal Marines. You will note the differences in the helmets - the marines' helmets include badges and straps above the brims. The collars of the tunics are also different.

I have not been able to identify the army uniforms. It is easy to identify the others because of the standard issues. The naval officers are in approved tropical uniform and the marines are wearing 'hot-weather' dress. The army uniforms tend to vary according to regiment or other unit, although that was rapidly changing during the relevant period. I would only add that the dress is typical of any British staff officer in the area ranging from the Levant down to the equator.

From the above we can also confirm the period involved. I had considered it was earlier than others thought but not so. I am sure we can say it was no earlier than the start of WW1 and no later than the start of WW2. The reason for this is that the pith helmets of that design were introduced as standard in 1914 or thereabouts. The naval uniform of the design shown was replaced in 1938.

I will post this and soon make a second post with some other comments.

_________________
Here to learn
Here to enjoy

great detective work

I keep studying the photo looking for nuances too.

The three natives at the left seem to be wearing no medals,
no decorations, no insignia of any kind.

The central British officer seems to be wearing WW1 era uniform is my guess.

The locals appear to be North Indian or maybe Afghani by their dark coloring is my first guess.

_________________
If it erupts, don't blame me!!

Exploring Glen's suggestion re Afghani/pakistani ethnicity of the 'sultans'.

There were 3 Anglo-Afghan wars-possibly this image relates to the 2nd or 3rd.

First Anglo-Afghan War (1839-1842)
Second Anglo-Afghan War (1878-1880)
Third Anglo-Afghan War (1919)
On August 19, 1919 Afghanistan formally gained its independence from the United Kingdom, ending decades of direct British control of Afghan affairs. It was in May of that year that Amir Amanullah Khan led a surprise attack against British forces in India, sparking the Third Anglo-Afghan War. Tied down by its commitments in World War I, the British signed the Treaty of Rawalpindi in early August, agreeing to give Afghanistan full control over its foreign affairs.

Here are some related images:

_________________
If it erupts, don't blame me!!

And some British troops from the period:

Not having a coast is the least of Afghanistan's problems, sadly

I still reckon 'ethnically' that region looks right......am trying to track down whether any negotiations/meetings were held in neutral territory in the Mediterranean/Gulf etc?

Alternatively...could this be in a tent?

I see no evidence whatever to confirm a ship.

Someone above suggested it was a ship, and all others took it for granted.

Looks more like a large TENT to me with central tentpole support strut and wooden flooring. However Kevin seems to have ID'd the white uniforms as Navy for sure.

The KEY is that 10-sided decoration/emblem on the main
guy's chest; find that, you know everything.

How about sending the decoration (or the whole image) to
the military decorations person at the British Museum?

Also, my opinion, nothing to do with Afghanistan. Remember
the shoes!! And minimal beards.

Two new ideas: ethnic Turks on Cyprus, and, before/after Gallipoli.

Still reckon the headresses suggest afghanistan/Northern India

Bengal Cavalry Regiments 1857-1914 By R. G. Harris, Christopher Warner




Here are some images of Turkish soldiers from this period:

_________________
If it erupts, don't blame me!!

_________________
If it erupts, don't blame me!!

Doug I was looking at the larger photo and the railing has been cropped out on that one .. agree it now does look like a ship!

I would suggest they are not wearing shoes but are all wearing boots, either outer long boots or dress boots. I have looked at the turbans that have been worn by sultans on Malayan state stamps, only 1 seems to come close to any worn in the picture ( but there is a great deal of difference in turbans even with the state over the periods, I have stamps for.) It must also be remembered that not all states had sultans but were governed by the British in the period of the photo.

On the Army side, the Officers collar patches could all be a sign of Staff Officers. I also think that this was a fairly informal occasion as the Officers are wearing only ribbons and not medals ( although I don't know the customs of the Indian Army/B.A, in India.)

_________________
Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.

OK, Margo, not Turks LOL LOL.

Thank you, Glen, landlubbers like me pay particular attention
to the DECKS just like first-time flyers pay attention to the
WINGS.

I am leaning toward Aden, Muscat, and Oman since all those
locations would have had a good many Indians in residence
and on station, I would guess.

Found this guy with a sunburst-decoration fetish while I was
browsing through images of Sultans.



Armenian Pasha

Well- I hope he never flies anywhere, cos he'd be spending 30 minutes unpinning at each security counter