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B/106 is from Kheerpoy

B/172 is Singapore and was used on Indian stamps until the Straits Settlements had their own.

Thanks, Maalgard, for coming to the rescue!

I'd be astonished if Indian stamps were used telegraphically in Sarawak by the time of Edward VII. I'd expect that Sarawak stamps would have been used.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Ahoj!

Thanks Maalgard & Tony.

The basis of my query was this stamp which I found in a collection I bought many years ago and was described as used in Sarawak. I checked for Pusa in Sarawak and it was there, but what I did not do until this morning was to check for Pusa in India and of course there is one in Bihar. Sorry to have wasted your time.

Honza

Ahoj again!

Would this be used in Busrah in Iraq or is there an Indian Busrah?


Secondly on surer ground an Indian Silver Jubilee with nice Mombasa, Kenya paquebot cancellation.



Cheers,

Honza

The top one looks like similar to other Busrah, India used in Iraq, cancellations so I'd suggest it was that. As for the Mombasa, paquebot, it does look like you've correctly identified it: it's certainly a nice cancellation!

It's also good to see this thread is proving useful and interesting!

And, thanks xanthorrea for your helpful response to my questions which I rudely didn't acknowledge.

Ben

Gibbons quotes the approximate date for the start of this type of BUSRAH cancellation as 1894, which would make an 1889 use rather early - unless the year numerals were reversed, of course.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Ahoj Ben!

Thank you for your comments. It is a very interesting thread. Thank you for starting it. Let's hope more and more people show their India used abroad to educate the rest of us.

and ahoj Tony!

Interesting what you say about the early date. Careless setting of the numerals could explain it as you say, but maybe someone else viewing this thread could check their copies for dates earlier than Gibbons give.

Burma cancellations must be common given its size, but I'll post a few now for your comments.



A nice clear strike of 156 Rangoon. Would this be a duplex where both parts of the cancellation are applied in one stroke?



A Service stamp with Secretariat postmark. Would this be on a letter or on a document? - postal or fiscal?



The first of these is similar to the Busrah postmark above. Is the second one two separate strikes superimposed? Does anyone have illustrations of them complete?



Two later KGV usages. Would MO on the right one be Money Order?



and finally is a barred R Rangoon and only Rangoon?

Thank you in anticipation,

Honza

Hi Honza,

Here are some comments about your stamps.

The 8 annas pair have a type 10 cancellation, in use between 1862 and 1873. It is quite common because Rangoon was an important place at this time.

The yellow 2 annas have 2 different cancellations :

The Rangoon type 17 duplex R-1 similar to this one :



and a small commercial strike.

I'm not sure about the 1 anna KGV jubilee cancel. Maybe Main Office ?
The R type 19 is very common and was used in all Burma.

Matt

Ahoj Matt!

Thank you for your prompt help and especially your scan of the full type 17 duplex.

By commercial strike for the secondary postmark do you mean a forwarding agent?

Thanks again,

Honza

Ahoj again!

Does anyone have any India used in the French or Portuguese enclaves, either on cover or singles that they could post? I have a Pondicherry loose, but no Portuguese ones.

Meanwhile here are two examples of the same Bahrain cancellation on EVII



and could this one be assigned to Bahrain too or are there too many Indian offices beginning BA?



and finally a rather faint Muscat postmark.



All comments and observations welcome!

Honza

Honza, there are a great many Indian PO names beginning with BA... - Barwani (very dear to my own heart) for one

And here is a slightly exotic Pondicherry usage: a 1946 Hyderabad Service cover to Pondicherry (without additional Indian postage, which was not required for Hyderabad Service mail):

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Ahoj Tonymacg!

A lovely cover! Thanks for posting! Interesting that the Pondicherry slogan is in English.

Do you have any Victorian postmarks for there?

Cheers,

Honza

Honza, this cover passed through the British Indian post office at Pondicherry, not the French. I'm not sure what would have happened if the French system had handled it, but I doubt that it would have been accepted with Hyderabad stamps alone.

As to Pondicherry in general, I'm sorry. My interest in the cover was as a Hyderabad cover, to an unusual destination. I don't collect French India (or British India, for that matter).

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Ahoj Tonymacg!

Thank you for the further information.

This is the only Pondicherry usage I have found.



and is anyone able to identify these two postmarks please? The one on the left looks like C 2(3?) and the one on the right C 10. They were with the "Sarawak" stamp above and described as used in French India, but they have probably been mis-attributed as well.



Thank you,

Honza

both Madras circle type 6 : C/23 is Kurnool and C/10 is Bangalore

Thank you Maalgard for your prompt helpful reply. I think the former owner must have been a phantasist!

Honza

Ahoj everyone!

I just picked up these two stamps today - my interest in this area has been rekindled by this thread.



Gibbons does not list these because it says they were not used for postage. What were they used for? Is the postmark Cossipore and would the PAR make it a parcel cancellation?



This second postmark looked unusual, but I cannot make it out. I hope I haven't posted it upside down. Can anyone please help?

Cheers,

Honza

Ahoj again!

Here is a 1937 1 R KGVI used in Nepal.



Honza

Honza, as none of the India specialists have yet responded to these two posts, I'll have a go myself. However, please do remember that British India isn't really my specialty.

The POSTAL SERVICE overprints were, I believe, used for internal accounting purposes in the Post Office. They do appear from time to time, but I have no idea of their value. Cossipore seems perfectly possible: it was a suburb of Calcutta, which was the capital of British India at the time. The PAR almost certainly indicates 'Parcels', though I don't know why it was used on this stamp.

Your 1 Anna brown seems to have a forwarding agent's cachet across it. I can't make out the agent's name, but these sorts of cachet are fairly common from the period.

The Nepal CDS dates from a time when Nepal was largely closed off from the outside world, and external communications were handled through the British Indian PO in Kathmandu. There were no roads into Nepal, and no scheduled air links either; everything (including the occasional car) was carried by porters up through the mountains. Your 1 Rupee stamp was probably from a small parcel, which was carried on someone's back, all the way from Kathmandu down to the Indian exchange post office at Raxaul in Bihar. Not terribly much value, I'm afraid, but there is a nice story behind it

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Ahoj Tony!

Thanks a lot for your trouble and sharing your knowledge. All very interesting!

Honza

At the time of this postmark, 1940, a railway existed from Raxaul to Amlekhganj built in the 1920s. The problem was the Chandragiri Pass and the rough going between Bhimphedi and Thankot. The rest of the root was capable of motor transport other than during a heavy rain.

The route was Raxaul - Birganj - Amlekhanj - Bhimphedi - Thankot - Katmandu.

An agreement between Nepal and India in 1937 allowed letters bearing Nepalese stamps to be accepted and delivered by the Indian Postal system. Nepal had such an isolationist policy that it did not join the UPU until 1956 (with an effective date in 1959). Therefore, its stamps were not valid internationally not unlike the stamps of the Princely States.

Though not an Ugly, I am becoming interested in the postal history of Nepal.

Ahoj maptrekker!

Thank you very much for this further fascinating information.

This is the only Indian stamp with Nepal postmark that I have come across. It must be quite common to find one, however, if they were the normal prepayment for international mail to destinations beyond India.

Thanks again,

Honza

There was trade between Nepal and Tibet, and between Nepal and India -- other than that Nepal isolated itself from the rest of the world.

I have never seen a British PO in Nepal from this period sent internationally other than to India. I know they exist but I think they are relatively rare.

A registered letter from 16 Jun 1939 originating at the British PO in Kathmandu. The indistinct rectangular postmark reads काठ मान्डु ए आ and indicates the Nepali Exchange PO in Kathmandu. The letter was therefore transferred to the Nepal PO for delivery.

Routing to the Indian Exchange PO at Shohratgarh (Suharatgarh) in Basti District via the Nepali Exchange PO at Taulihawa (Tawalliwa) is indicated in English. There were 11 other Nepali Exchange Post Offices (including Birganj mentioned earlier).

There is an indistinct receiving postmark of SHOHRATGARH / 20 JUN. 39 / BASTI on the stamped side.

I think the letter was addressed in Hindi (or is it Nepali?) and presented to the British PO in Kathmandu were the routing was added. Someday I will get around to figuring out the address.

For a few days (weeks?) after the Indian invasion of Portuguese India, stamps from both Port. India and India were allowed to circulate. There was a hybrid cover on FleaBay recently with stamps from both issuing authorities. A rarity, I'd say. I was tempted to bid on it, but was in the middle of too many other auctions at the time.

Dear crew,
I missed on commenting on this earlier but just to bring you up to date the Postal Service overprinted stamps were used in a similar manner to the Australian customs stamps. The stamps were overprinted in Calcutta and were first issued in March 1896. They are for the customs duty to be paid by addressees for incoming foreign parcels. They were never issued to the public for payment of postage on letters and were withdrawn after about 10 years. After collection of the duty the stamps were affixed to the import documents and obliterated with the date stamp of the office concerned. Used copies are usually cancelled with large block letter cancels in purple ink and sometimes round skeleton cancels in purple ink.
Issues overprinted were QV 1a on 9p mauve of 1876, 1a on 9p rose/carmine 0f 1882/88, 1882 1/2a, 1a, 2a blue, 4a, 8a, R1 green and carmine, 1895 Rs2, Rs3 and Rs5, 1901 2a violet and EVII 1/2a postage, 1a postage, 2a, 4a, 8a, R1 and Rs2.
I have a few and am interested in them.

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I'll think of something inspiring one day.

Are you sure postal service were never postally used? I recall seeing one on eBay in last 10 days which had what certainly looked like a postal CDS to me. Will try and find it so can post a pic.

Ben

Ben, you can never rule out the possibility of an irregular, unauthorised use. To my mind, a postally used POSTAL SERVICE overprint would just be a curio, in the same class as revenue stamps that have somehow seen ... postal use. (I was about to write 'postal service' )

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Ben,
Further to Tony's comments I would reiterate the point as it may not denote postal use as in usage on a letter but usage in a postal facility. I would also point out that many so called "postally used" cancels are in fact from related usages such as telegraphs and in revenue functions occurring at post offices. General tips are:
1. Single ring skeletons cancels of late QV and EVII are not postal but more likely telegraph - commonly seen on the higher values but not postal.
2. Tel stands for Telegraphs and is a giveaway on double ring cds cancels above the bridge of the cancel.
3. Vertical killer bars above or below the bridge on double ring cds cancels of EVII to GVI period are mostly telegraph cancels.
4. Never trust a QV value over Rs2/-, EVII over Rs2/- or GV over Rs10/- as being postally used unless it is sitting on the cover (and for the QV and EVII I would like to see the cover) or it has the letters PAR (for parcels) or INS (for Insured) as part of the cancel. These values were mainly issued and used for telegraphic purposes and saw little postal use. Most used copies I have seen are telegraphic cancels. This does not mean that they are not collectable and I would be the first to show you the odd dozen of them, but they are not used on letters or parcels going through the mail system. They served a different mail service.

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I'll think of something inspiring one day.

PS Further to my previous comments I should add also the concentric half circles on the double ring cds cancels such as shown on Ben's avatar are also telegraphic cancels.

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I'll think of something inspiring one day.

PPS. There was a query about Portuguese India a little while back so I thought I'd toss these two into the fray to illustrate. Needless to say they are not too common.

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I'll think of something inspiring one day.

Thanks for this post; that list is really helpful and will be really useful as I start trying to find postally used copies of some of the higher values. Do have a couple of small clarification questions, however.

"Single ring skeleton cancels" - does that mean the cancels which are just a circle with a town name at the top and almost nothing else? and are these always telegraphic usage or is it just impossible to determine if these cancels were or were not telegraphically used if not on cover?

Were stamps with a PAR cancel actually used on the item or were they attached to a card separately? (I have a couple of 15R EVII with PAR which seem much too neat to have been attached to a huge parcel as I would expect.

Even though my avatar is telegraphic usage, I still like it, as its still the only India used in Tibet (for any purposes) I have. Telegraph cancels seem just as interesting a field in my opinion!

Ben

I'm not sure I'd go so far on the single ring skeleton CDSs. They commonly turn up in postal use on low values from the smaller post offices





during the late QV to EVII period.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony does raise a good point as the particular cancels that I was thinking of as I wrote the comments were a slightly different style that I will illustrate when I get home and can fish one out. (The joys of lunchtime access with no material sitting about with you. )
The examples shown are from smaller offices and I think might be a case of just one or two cds being supplied in the first place so that all usage, both postal and telegraphic, at the office used the same hammers. It is really a matter of then proving that use on a higher value was postal. When one considers that the postage rate was 1 anna then Rs2 is 32 times this normal rate. For something like a EVII Rs25 genuine postal use must be exceedingly rare and associated with insured parcels. The vast majority of used copies that I have seen have telegraph cancels and those with "postal" style cds I suspect were used telegraphically but one cannot prove either way as they are not on cover.
It raises the whole question of downgrading telegraphic cancels. Consider the high values of anywhere, whether this be the 5 pound values of GB or the 2 pound roos of Australia or wherever. How many of the used specimens were used on postage? Nobody quibbles about them although it is fairly clear most used copies were used to pay for telegrams. In the case of these Indian high values there is a "downgrade" in catalogues as telegraphic usage is somehow lesser than postal use. I suppose I would not mind if auctioneers and dealers ever got it right and were able to demonstrate unequivocal postal use but why differentiate when most people cannot tell? Note we can quite easily include Gibbons and most reputable dealers in those who cannot differentiate.
For me the stamp is still the stamp and if it is genuinely used for a legitimate purpose associated with the postal and communications functions of the time then that is a "Postal" use. If it had a revenue function, to pay court fees or whatever then that is a legitimate "Fiscal" use. Either way it is still a nice stamp and deserves to be recognised as such. I do however like to ascribe their use appropriately though and if telegraphic or postal like to recognise that.
This might seem a bit of a rant but I think you can understand. It's good to be able to raise these issues somewhere with people who might understand.

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I'll think of something inspiring one day.

Edited to remove misplaced reply

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I recently purchased what can only be described as a hoard of British Indian stamps on the basis of having seen quite a few Tibet postmarks dispersed throughout it! Its only arrived today so not had much time to find items - theres a lot to look through!


These first two are used in Yatung-Tibet, via Siliguri (Hellrigl B15 I believe) on the 9 Aug 1937. I suspect they were attached at some point as they have the same dates (why did someone have to remove them from piece!).

Nonetheless I particularly like them, as they are my first postal usage India in Tibet!





Regards,

Ben

An excellent find.

The postmark relates to the trade markets set up by the British in the Chumbi Valley of Tibet. The goods were hauled across Sikkim to the railroad station at Siliguri.

Those post offices were turned over to the Chinese in 1954. There was a treaty signed in 1954 between India and the PRC for mutual trade markets which included the one at Yatung. For all I know, it still may be active.

I am currently at 8 copies of the 1r, all from the same day, - it must have been a pretty huge parcel! I also have a variety of Nepal postmarks to show later this week when I have time to scan them,

Ben

No clue about this overprint never seen another like it any info would be appreciated.

Hi I have only ever seen one of this set before in many years of looking. I was able to get this in a junk lot off of Ebay a few years ago.I was wondering if any one else had any of the others would love a look at them thanks.

As I recall, this was a commercial overprint (a type of anti-theft device) of the Oriental Government Security Life Assurance Company.

Thank you

Maptrekker is quite right about the source of the ORIENTAL overprint. Three examples of this stamp were shown in the India Study Circle journal India Post in the 1990s, all used as revenues on premium receipts from 1932 for the company.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

A few interesting postmarks to show!

The trade route betwen Tibet and Sikkim was very well travelled at the beginning of the 20th Century. Traders moving between Tibet and Sikkim would move travel down the Chumbi valley from the villages of Tibet to Darjeeling.

This selection of postmarks from Sikkim covers the principle towns which traders generally passed on their circuit. The route began in Tibet (Yatung, Gyantse, Gartok etc) before heading to Gangtok then on to Kalimpong and finally on to Darjeeling. I hope to eventually have postmarks of all the towns in the region and Tibet!

There is a good map of the region here:
http://www.sikhspectrum.com/062002/tibet.htm



These following postmarks are India used abroad. There are examples of Aden, Nepal and Thanoot (a relatively scarce Burman postmark) and a Southampton postmark which is either due to mail posted at sea or simply a misplaced cancellation.



Does anyone know if Yatung cancellations have a similar value to the other Tibetan cancellations of this period (Gyantse, Pharijoing etc.) as I may be interested in offering some for trade if they did.

Ben

Ben

Ben, Robson Lowe in the Encyclopaedia of British Empire Postage Stamps rated the Pharijong and Yatung CDS equally at 2/6 on piece and 5/- on cover. I have the impression (note 'impression') that Yatung cancels are more common than from the other Tibetan POs - for what that's worth

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Okey - I suspected that might be the case - I'll have to keep looking for some better ones to offer for trades.

Next one is a suspected used abroad. Its a Maskar cancellation which, according to some ebayers, was used in Aden. I'm suspicious as it looks like there is a word (seems to be a number 2 imo) before Maskar based on its position, and I have not seen a real reference to Maskar, Aden.



Ben

Worked out the answer to the above problem: its a Khormaskar cancellation which was used in Aden during the period.

But... just as I thought I'd met everything I could meet in postmarks I decided to start working through the hundreds of GVI defins... The variety of postmarks is great but it leaves me with lots of questions. Here goes!

1) This stamp has been hit with a pretty harsh obliterator - certainly stands out alongside neat CDs! I'm guessing its a War-time cancellation?


2) I have several of these purple cancellations but they all seem to have half the letters off the stamp... What are they?



3) Is this an experimental cancellations?


4) I'm sure Indian stamps have never been used in Jerusalem but since the Indian Army did have units in Palestine and I can't find any other matching cancel - might it be... ?


5) Field post offices. I believe these were used by units during WW2 and thus were used wherever the units were stationed. Is there any way to identify where these were used? Nos 126, 159, 199



6) Finally... a simple postmark id question. Normally not having any issues identifying postmarks but can't seem to find this one.



I realise this is a lot of questions...

Thanks!

Ben

4) Salem is a city in Tamil Nadu

Indian post marks are fun. Get a pile of Indian stamps and you allways find one or two that make you go hmmm. Writers building in Calcutta lol your a writer we got just the spot for you.

No.1: I've seen these big black Xs on other rupee values during the War years, but I can't recall the explanation, if there was one.

No.2: Could these have been private 'security' cachets, to prevent theft? They were widely used in much earlier years.

No.3: Try Yeotmal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavatmal)

No.4: Agree with Maalgard

No.5: Brigadier Virk wrote several books on the FPOs. The India Study Circle library will certainly have them. They will identify the locations for you.

No.6: Can't place this. It looks as if it ought be a badly spaced '(something) Ghat'. Maybe a specialist can identify it.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu