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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 15:19:24 pm 
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JAPAN STAMPS - Kobans, Dragons, Mihons, Cherry Blossom. Real or Fake?

I am a keen collector of early Japanese stamps and as a result have accumulated quite lot of forgeries and learnt some of the basics in identifying forgeries (sometimes at my own cost!)

So if you are interested in liaising on this area, or putting up queries or photos, within my work time and travel constraints, I would be pleased to see if I can assist and if there are others out there with similar interests I'm sure we could share some useful information shared amongst us.

I'm also a member of the ISJP but not an expert on the subject, particularly on how to validate genuine dragons and cherry blossoms.

However I do subscribe to their DVD covering many of the known forgeries typically Wada, Spiro, Hirose for example.

Anyway - looking forward to any responses and discussion points that might arise. :D

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 15:21:42 pm 
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I have been working with my Japanese stamps and I cannot seem to identify the following stamps :(

I would appreciate any information regarding them and their approximate value as I would like to include

them in a lot of Japanese stamps I am going to sell shortly.

I thank you folks in advance for your time and any feedback at all,

Have a Good One :)

Skilo54

Unidentified Japanese Stamp 1
Image


Unidentified Japanese Stamp 2
Image

Unidentified Japanese Stamp 3
Image

Japanese Telegraph Stamps (my friends parrot got a hold of the 2nd one :lol: :oops: :lol: )
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 17:42:52 pm 
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skilo54 wrote:
I have been working with my Japanese stamps and I cannot seem to identify the following stamps :(

I would appreciate any information regarding them and their approximate value as I would like to include

them in a lot of Japanese stamps I am going to sell shortly.

I thank you folks in advance for your time and any feedback at all,

Have a Good One :)

Skilo54
Nice clear scans Skilo! :D

The reference I use for Japanese revenues is John Barefoot's :D South East Asia Revenues (2006).

skilo54 wrote:
Unidentified Japanese Stamp 1
Image
General Revenue Barefoot #22 of 1874 - 50p

skilo54 wrote:
Unidentified Japanese Stamp 2
Image
General Revenue Barefoot #25 of 1898 - 50p

skilo54 wrote:
Unidentified Japanese Stamp 3
Image
General Revenue Barefoot #19 of 1883 - £1.00

skilo54 wrote:
Japanese Telegraph Stamps (my friends parrot got a hold of the 2nd one :lol: :oops: :lol: )
Image

The best reference I know for telegraph stamps is Telegraph & Telephone Stamps of the World by S.E.R. Hiscocks (1982).

There was only one set of Japanese telegraph stamps and this was issued in 1885 with 10 values from 1 sen to 1 yen. Hiscocks lists 26 different perforation gauges for this issue!

5 sen is Hiscocks #5
10 sen is Hiscocks #6
15 sen is Hiscocks #7
25 sen is Hiscocks #8

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 21:50:45 pm 
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Thanks for the very informative and helpful post NigelC :)

I appreciate your effort in responding with such a clear and detailed response to my question.

Only 26 pref gauges on the telegraph stamps - eh! :shock: Holy!

I don't think I'll be picking that $250.00 catalogue up any time soon :shock: :lol: :oops:

Once again,

Thanks for the very helpful answer NigelC,

Have a Good One :)

Skilo54

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 23:12:21 pm 
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These are three general fiscals of Japan:

grey, 1873 type (to be precise, the 1872 type which was rouletted on native paper; reprinted in 1873 perforated and on western paper)
blue, 1890s type
violet, 1880s type (Your one inscribed "securities" tax, but the same type was used for general income tax and for medical tax, with different inscriptions)

They were printed in the billions, only odd or X-high denominations resp. unused fiscals command some catalog values comparable to postage stamps. Attractive though as they usually were similiar in style as the then current postage stamps - until 1925.

Telegraph stamps of Japan are in stamp catalogs of Japan (of course), Yvert (France) and Michel (recently). Telegraphs of some countries likeFrance, Brazil, Belgium ec. are in the worlds stamp catalogs for a century now. Other countries seem banned, oddly even UK which appeared in the SG of 1940 for the last time :shock:

Issued 1885, redrawn from service 1888, made invalid 1890. Papers and perforations are the same ones as used for the contemporary typographed (Koban) issue.
Each telegraph stamp pictures another working device of the then telegraph service. These are the only telegraph stamps issued by Japan.
They are small, cute and loved by many collectors of 19th c. japanese issues. Mint, they are difficult to find!

Dont mix up with telegraph seals - those were used to seal enveleopes by telegraph offices (later P&T.O.), later also for telegrams folded into letter form for delivery.

There is an affordable japanese fiscals&seals catalogue for around US-25 by Shimomura in english. Look for a 1990s or 2k copy.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 23:33:41 pm 
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Hi Skilo,

It's good to see this thread bumped again as I'd missed your reply. :D

The Hiscocks catalogue cost me £17.50 when I bought it a few years ago. It's a small catalogue but it does cover telegraph and telephone stamps of the whole world.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 03:36:01 am 
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It seems to be a slightly blurry impression, but when I compare it to the scans of common forgeries that I was able to find online I can't rule it out as genuine.

I see what appears to be signs of of the "dot" indicating Plate 1 in upper left.

It's definitely on (vertically) laid paper, but I have no experience identifying the right paper types.

Any experts out there?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 03:45:35 am 
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I'm highly suspicious of this one, but again, can't rule it out as genuine based on what I can find on-line. I'm not seeing clear evidence of the secret mark, but having never looked at these before I'm not sure exactly what to look for.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 03:50:14 am 
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I'm nearly 100% certain this is a forgery based on the shape of the right-hand dragon's head and claw.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 04:18:26 am 
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Not sure about this one, in bad shape anyway:
Image

This one is suspicious, not least because I can find no reference to roulettes on this issue.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 06:58:39 am 
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Last one for now...

Most of the Koban were pretty easy to tell -- but this one is higher-value and I'm not sure. Perfs of course look wonky, but apparently that's quite normal for these. I really have no idea...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:02:54 am 
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Nevermind, this one is a "signed" forgery (I didn't realize exactly where to look for the sanko characters, but they are quite obvious).


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:33:09 pm 
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Good afternoon from New Zealand!

You may find the "Forgeries of the Dragon, Cherry Blossom & Koban Postage Stamps of Japan" by Casey et al, most useful?

A few years ago I obtained this via the ISJP for US $50.00

Try this site: www.isjp.org for more information - thank you.

David

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:40:50 pm 
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These stamps were extensively forged, often very expertly, so the book is a great buy! 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 14:02:56 pm 
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Thanks for the advice. I was able to use the ISJP online resources and have corresponded with them. I was able to "weed out" a lot of forgeries as well as determine that many are "genuine enough" to need physical viewing.

The few that I posted here fall into the category of "an expert can probably tell me from the scan if this is a certain fake."

The ISJP offers that service but only to members -- as a non-member I'd have to send them off (cheap, at $1 a pop, so I will).


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 Post subject: Japan - Early Issues
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 02:27:33 am 
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These were issued in 1876

Any comments welcomed

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 Post subject: Re: Japan - Early Issues
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 02:45:37 am 
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These were issued in 1872. Any comments?

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 Post subject: Re: Japan - Early Issues
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 05:04:42 am 
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Both postings show Wada forgeries of cherry blossoms resp. Koban issues.
If in clean condition, these sell at ebay at US-$1 (some more) per piece.

cheers
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 09:23:35 am 
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200 mon #3 is genuine and a plate I - plate II colour shade is different.

48 mon #1 is a Wada-forgery.

1 sen dragon is genuine and plate II.

500 mon #4 is another Wada-forgery.

45s Koban confirm forgery.

-- Get the ISJP CD-rom on forgeries. The 48 and 500 mon are easily found.

cheers
ligneN (an ISJP member)


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 Post subject: Re: Japan - Early Issues
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 15:02:17 pm 
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Thanks. It's you again. Saw your other feedback earlier. I like a second opinion if any.
I didn't get mine thru Ebay because it didn't exist 50 or more years ago.....


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 00:29:44 am 
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I think the best way to give any evaluation about these first stamps of Japan is looking at a clear scanned version of the genius stamps. Below are the links for the dragon stamps as putting on sale by Japan Post's Japan Philatelic Company this October. Hope this can help you.

http://www.yushu.co.jp/shop/g/g191047/

http://www.yushu.co.jp/shop/g/g191048/

http://www.yushu.co.jp/shop/g/g191102/

http://www.yushu.co.jp/shop/g/g191103/

http://www.yushu.co.jp/shop/g/g191104/

http://www.yushu.co.jp/shop/g/g191049/

http://www.yushu.co.jp/shop/g/g191050/

You should pay attention to the ball of foot and toes.

The pages are only in Japanese, however you can click on the photos to have a larger version of them. You also can use Google's Chrome browser with auto-translation function turned on.

Khanh


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 01:13:10 am 
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I have a question about Japanese Mihon overprints. According to Scott catalouge these overprints started with Scott #9. I recently obtained two stamps from the 1871 Dragon series Scott #2 & 4 which both have Mihon overprints. Is the catalouge incorrect? Any information regarding these stamps is greatly appreciated. Since these are both fairly valuable stamps assuming they are not forgeries, would this overprint if legitimate make the stamps less or more valuable? Thanks!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 01:24:30 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:45:45 pm 
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Mihon overprints are found on all of the Dragon stamps in three character manuscript and the black dot Sumitan are only on 1, and 5 to 8 - I have in my collection only number 2 and number 5 in the manuscript type -- the 1985 MIHON catalogue from Japan list values from 16,000 yen for number 6 type 2 to 300,000 yen for number 3 type 2 and the Sumitans from 20,000 for number 5 to 1,200,000 for number 6


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 01:50:46 am 
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The printed (3-character) mihons were added to the dragons in connection with a request by the UPU to its members, to send a full collection of all previously issued stamps. More info see: Bendon, James: UPU specimen stamps. Limassol, Cyprus, 1988. --> An updated 2nd edition is under preparation, see http://www.jamesbendon.com/

All dragons exist with printed mihons.

"The Specialized Catalog of Hand Engraved Stamps" 2007 (last) edition states for the printed (three character) mihons (II = plate 2, y = japanese Yen):

#1 I y55.ooo, 1II 65.ooo
#2 I y50.ooo, 2II 160.ooo
#3 I y50.ooo, 2II 300.ooo
#4 I y80.ooo, 4II 120.ooo

#5 I y45.ooo, 5II 18.ooo
# 6II y45.ooo
#7 y200.ooo
#8 y90.ooo


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 05:31:39 am 
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Very useful 24 page book for identifying forgeries of the Dragon Issues of Japan. Although now superseded by the ISJP CD, this is an easy way to start on these.

Price $C10.- plus something for Postage. I will cover part of the postage.

Weight packed is 100g:
Canada $1.-
US & Worldwide $2.-

Payment by PayPal or Moneybookers, other ways are ok too

Image

Thanks :D


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:42:39 pm 
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Can anyone help with identifying this Japanese stamp?

It's quite thin, so perhaps a cut-out from Postal stationery?
I've looked at Fiscal & Revenue images but had no luck there either.
Image
Thanks.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 14:48:30 pm 
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A good guess, but actually a legitimate postage stamp! This is from the emergency issue after the 1923 earthquake (issued 25 Oct 1923), one of a set of 9.

I'm afraid I don't have the SG number, but you should be able to find it from the date. (Scott # is 181, and 2013 catalog value for used is $1.00.)

Hope that's helpful!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 18:23:26 pm 
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philatarium wrote:
A good guess, but actually a legitimate postage stamp! This is from the emergency issue after the 1923 earthquake (issued 25 Oct 1923), one of a set of 9.

I'm afraid I don't have the SG number, but you should be able to find it from the date. (Scott # is 181, and 2013 catalog value for used is $1.00.)

Hope that's helpful!

-- Dave


Thanks Dave, that's great! I see it now. Value doesn't matter, I'm trying to do some cataloguing of ones I couldn't ID before, before I make the leap and try to design album pages :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 03:44:11 am 
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Great! It's always satisfying to finally get an elusive one identified.

Good luck with the pages!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 08:53:04 am 
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Dear friends, I acquired a "collection of old Japanese stamps" from ebay for a considerable sum (well, at least for me :)).

My heart sank when I read stuff on the net about these things being 'tourist items' and all stamps are fake. Is this really true?

Is there any hope that at least some of these will be genuine?

Thanks in advance for your inputs,

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 08:59:55 am 
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Without scans of what you are taking about how can anyone provide the answer you are after :!:

Please have a look at how to load scans up here using Photobucket. Just look in the relevant forum.

I have also changed the title to better reflect your question.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:22:29 am 
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I hope you can see the scans of the dragons now! Lemme know what you guys think...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:29:20 am 
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Dear friends,

Please have a look and let me know what you think: Forgery or real?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:37:42 am 
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Hey guys,

Are these genuine or forgeries? Your guidance is much appreciated.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:38:37 am 
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Rule #1 is to ASSUME all Japanese Dragon, Koban etc issues are FORGED unless they have a Cert.

Just like Heligoland stamps!

We need far bigger scans - 1 of EACH stamp to even start to tell. The fakes were excellent.

Glen


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:51:55 am 
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Not real, I'm afraid.

The printing is finer, and the perfs are generally much less regular. Plus they usually have 'Bota'-type cancels that would be immediately dismissed by anyone aspiring towards fine used (though Botas grow on you, given a bit of effort)

Apologies, Mike


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:58:25 am 
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Location: That's on a need to know basis - and YOU do not need to know!
I just merged several threads on this general subject into ONE consolidated one to assist all members better with this tricky area! 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 19:26:31 pm 
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Hi SG Dragon,

all stamps as shown by Your three scans are Wada forgeries. Only the 1 sen brown look a bit more deceiving, as colour and perf appear good (for a scan, not when seeing an original. But the pseudo-postmarks clearly ID them as fakes even with a small scan provided only.

As stated above, never ever buy non-expertised Japan classics: any stamp issued before 1883 was forged, in huge numbers. Plus any overprint issue (1900, military, 1919 air).

Get some faulty but genuine classics to make Yourself acquainted. Use a lupe. Remember the genuine ones were etched (very detailed, usually sharp-lined intaglio printing) on good quality paper. And not these blatant flat-bed prints on low quality coarse paper as the Wadas are.

But be warned: "used" dragons and Koban high values, though genuine basic stamps, may be ink-dot specimens with fake cancels trying to hide/cover the dots. Copies with the ink-dot razed, stamped and stated as "tiny thin" appear as well. The dot is always in the center and often on the chrysanthemum crest.

The pre-1960 experts (like Koehler, Richter, Pirl, Raybaudy etc.) were not aware of that. We find their signs and certs with "postmarked" specimens stamps or faked covers with genuine stamps.

Not aware either were and are the late Holcombe, the very lively Sismondo and a bunch of french dealers. Their certs should be met with errm, *caution*. Particular for dragon covers (so called "made covers").

This is due for classic japanese stationery as well, particular the 3-5-6 UPU cards and any of the cherry blossom envelopes and any wrapper (even the cheapos with $30 cat value and easily available genuinely used). Hong Kong based auctions boasting with classic China and also doing some sideline Japan have repeatedly offered those fake postmarked stationeries/"made covers".


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 07:03:19 am 
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Hi freinds,
Can you please help in identifying if these are genuine? I tried to look for signatures, but could not find any...appreciate your help...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 07:04:13 am 
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Many thanks for your replies. Now I will not get into this Japan stamps business till I am well educated :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 20:09:25 pm 
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I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
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ligneN wrote:

The pre-1960 experts (like Koehler, Richter, Pirl, Raybaudy etc.) were not aware of that. We find their signs and certs with "postmarked" specimens stamps or faked covers with genuine stamps.

Not aware either were and are the late Holcombe, the very lively Sismondo and a bunch of french dealers. Their certs should be met with errm, *caution*. Particular for dragon covers (so called "made covers").



Great comment. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 00:59:26 am 
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SG_Dragon wrote:
Hi freinds,
Can you please help in identifying if these are genuine? I tried to look for signatures, but could not find any...appreciate your help...
Image

Image


Two more Wada forgeries. Get the ISJP-CD rom: http://www.isjp.org/isjp/CDROM.html
Otherwise yer expedition into classic Japonistan will end bloody and honourless :twisted:
"No free lunch" (US), "No food for the lazy man" (Ghana...) :mrgreen:

BTW, Germany has two experts BPP for Japan - they know their job.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 01:12:03 am 
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GlenStephens wrote:
ligneN wrote:

The pre-1960 experts (like Koehler, Richter, Pirl, Raybaudy etc.) were not aware of that. We find their signs and certs with "postmarked" specimens stamps or faked covers with genuine stamps.

Not aware either were and are the late Holcombe, the very lively Sismondo and a bunch of french dealers. Their certs should be met with errm, *caution*. Particular for dragon covers (so called "made covers").



Great comment. :)


Plus there is some another :cry: "If-it-not-took-shelter-on-a-tree-in-time-I-expertize-it-merciless :evil: &universal :shock: ":
he is resident in a certain Oz and goes by the nym of Zckrysztov aka Zckrys (all personal and country names anonymized).


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 01:44:20 am 
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ligneN wrote:
SG_Dragon wrote:
Hi freinds,
Can you please help in identifying if these are genuine? I tried to look for signatures, but could not find any...appreciate your help...
Image

Image


Two more Wada forgeries. Get the ISJP-CD rom: http://www.isjp.org/isjp/CDROM.html
Otherwise yer expedition into classic Japonistan will end bloody and honourless :twisted:
"No free lunch" (US), "No food for the lazy man" (Ghana...) :mrgreen:

BTW, Germany has two experts BPP for Japan - they know their job.


Hi, What did you mean 'experts BBP'? And can you please tell me how I can assess these 2 as Wada forgeries? I tried to find out , but lloks like I missed something :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 04:17:24 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 09:42:09 am 
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SG_Dragon wrote:
ligneN wrote:
SG_Dragon wrote:
Hi freinds,
Can you please help in identifying if these are genuine? I tried to look for signatures, but could not find any...appreciate your help...

(..)

Two more Wada forgeries. Get the ISJP-CD rom: http://www.isjp.org/isjp/CDROM.html
Otherwise yer expedition into classic Japonistan will end bloody and honourless :twisted:
"No free lunch" (US), "No food for the lazy man" (Ghana...) :mrgreen:

BTW, Germany has two experts BPP for Japan - they know their job.


Hi, What did you mean 'experts BBP'? And can you please tell me how I can assess these 2 as Wada forgeries? I tried to find out , but lloks like I missed something :)


BPP see previous posting.

Wada was the main producer of faked japanese earlies. And how to ID:
1) get the CD as stated above, and/or
2) the 1981 book by Wilhelmsen.

The late Wilhelmsens book is still available in the philatelic trade, googling "wilhemsen forfalskninger 1981" e.g. resulted in:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WILHELMSEN-K-JAPANS-KLASSISKE-FORFALSKNINGER-TROMS-1981-/170965386137?pt=Briefmarke&hash=item27ce54c399

The majority of Old Japan fakes are [url]without[/url] hidden characters for "imitation".


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:15:17 am 
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I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
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ligneN wrote:

Plus there is some another :cry: "If-it-not-took-shelter-on-a-tree-in-time-I-expertize-it-merciless :evil: &universal :shock: ":

he is resident in a certain Oz and goes by the nym of Zckrysztov aka Zckrys (all personal and country names anonymized).


Well he works for the auction house who owns most of the stamps that his opinions are associated with. Pretty strange I find but many do not seem to know that.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 16:23:25 pm 
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GlenStephens wrote:

Well he works for the auction house who owns most of the stamps that his opinions are associated with. Pretty strange I find but many do not seem to know that.


Good morning Glen,

Is it the same expert from whom I had requested you to kindly arrange a MUH certificate of a high value Kangaroo stamp offered by you? As I recall you refused my request in your special colourful way.

All the best

Zaved


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 23:28:19 pm 
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Zaved - I only accept Certificates from INDEPENDENT COMMITTEES.

Lone Wolfs are just that. One single 'opinion'.

You can choose to use whom you wish of course.

Anyone who buys MUH high value Kangaroos has a screw loose anyway - sorry. You are every regummer's wet dream. :lol:


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