Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

Folks,

As a commercial cover collector its important to be able to determine if a cover is commercial or philatelic. It would be great to be able to get other opinions of that from interested Stampboarders.

I think the three most important things in determining if a cover is commercial are:

What rate is the cover paying as compared to what franking should be on the cover? Though sometimes covers are over and under paid and still commercial.

What time-frame were they used in? Was it used within a valid time-frame of the stamps being issued?

How does the cover smell? I don't mean this as in scent but does it emit a philatelic or a commercial odour. I think this is a judgement call. How has it been opened? Are the stamps lined up in a row and all members of the set there?

Is it a philatelic cancel from a show for example? How is it addressed? Really neatly or perhaps a bit roughly? Is it a first day cover? ect ect ect. Any one of these things would not necessarily rule it out but may make a collector suspicious.

Here is one to start the discussion. Is this cover commercial or philatelic? Have a look at my summary underneath the cover but come to your opinion first.



Its obviously airmail to the USA. The rate at the time was 60 cents for the first 10 grams and 35 cents for each additional 10 grams. For a triple rate cover weighing up to 30 grams that would add up to $1.30. The cover franking adds up to $1.32 The cover is a Pre-stamped Envelope and could have easily have coped with 90 grams.

The Waltzing Matilda strip was issued on 7 May 1980 and this cover was postmarked 23 May 1980. It was withdrawn on 30 January 1981 from Philatelic Sales Centres. So the stamps would have been in the post office at the time.

How does it smell? I guess I would always be suspicious of a strip like this. The postmark is OK. It has a handwritten address. Its uprating a PSE. If philatelic why would the sender not have put the strip on an envelope on its own and sent it? I think it smells OK.

I am going Commercial. What do others think?

Tim

Tim clearly is was philatelic as the sender overpaid AND insisted the clerk at Pambula do the cutesy little half moon cancels along top.

Maybe the sender knew the recipient was a collector, and asked clerk for something "nice", but that still makes it philatelic.

Question - which will seal this one .. WHICH side it is opened on?

Glen
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Glen,

It was opened along the top of the envelope which has short perfed a couple of the Swagman stamps.

Tim

It's seems really hard to come up with a definative answer.

Although a cover might look completely commercial, how do you know the collector wasn't trying to obtain commercially used examples of new issues as they came out? And would a cover produced in this situation be considered commercial or philatelic?

Ewen

Confirms the recipient was not much of a collector then!

I think the sender has asked for these specially, and asked for the light cancels.

Glen

Ewen,

That is true but as a commercial collector you have to try and determine if you think an article is commercial. Would some of the covers that Glen sends out material to collectors be considered philatelic or commercial? I think if the stamps are paying the correct rate and are current stamps the cover is commercial. Even though he has gone to the trouble of using nice combinations of stamps. The primary purpose is to send you the material not to make the cover.

Others may disagree.

What about this one? Its a FDC of the 5d Hargraves issue. I think its commercial and someone has written FDC on it at a later stage. The handwriting is very different and it looks like it has been written over the machine cancel.

Tim

Tim, I'd bet my house all the writing on face was done by 1 hand, using the same pen.

The rather unusual S of FIRST and Southwell are stylistically identical is my guess.

Glen

Hi Didge,
Interesting Topic.

One with many "What If,s"

Also Remember WAY back in the 80,s,, that is now almost 30 years ago Stamp Collecting was enjoying a major boom.
But not many people know what Postal History was, or even cared ,and as far as collecting Commercial mail.that was stuff out of the rubbish bin that smelt of pencil sharpenings,

Point I am making,, is people then did not care about proper rates etc,and if sending to anyone Overseas,extra stamps was quite ok.if it was to a collector,

The one you show,is addressed to a Mr and Mrs,so it was most likely a letter,or an Anniversery card although that would have come with its own envelope.
(Does it have a senders name on the reverse that says Ansley) if it does it may mean that it was a son/daughter send mail home to Mum/Dad who were collectors,
If just handed over at the counter the Postal Clark WOULD have put on the HIghest stamp value to hand that covered the cost.

I tend to feel it is Philatelic,more than Commercial.

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

I'd consider virtually all FDC's to be philatelic rather than commercial. It was basically made to be collectible and so is philatelic by definition.

With your Hargraves cover, it sure looks to me like the writing was done in the same hand.

To me it had totally commercial usage without the words "First day Cover", but adding these makes the definition of commercial and philatelic a bit less defined.

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Tony

I'd bet Glen's house that the writing is by two different hands. Check out the E in COVER versus the E in EPPING.

(Incidentally, I think mine and Glen's posts are examples of satisficing, when the first solution that makes sense is adopted, rather than looking for the solution that makes the most sense. Easy to do.)

Cheers,

Ewen

Folks,

I tend to agree with Glen about the writing but I dont agree that all FDC's are philatelic. There must have been stamps that were genuinely commercially used on the first day of issue.

Large multiples dont make it philatelic either I think. How about this 8d Tiger Cat x 6 paying the double airmail rate to the US. Why not the 4/- Navigator? Or 2 x 2/- stamps? Still commercial I think. The tiger cat is quite scarce on cover as well.

Yes, but along top is all printed caps and Epping is cursive.

I certainly use totally different formations for both.

Glen

Tim the Nun cover looks 100% commercial to me.

8d was HEAVILY used as overweight 1st step domestic, so all mail folders had lots of those, and lots of 5d.

_________________
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Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

Fair enough - the lower curve of the S is smaller on each of them, so you win your house.

Ewen

Tim,

Agree with you there, that's why I said "virtually all FDC's were philatelic".

Your 8d. tiger cat cover is absolutely commercial usage IMHO.

Now if that one was way overpaid, had some sort of a cachet, even had Aust. states stamps, etc., we would be well into the realms of purely philatelic usage.

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Tony

Lakatoi,

What does IMHO mean? Seen it alot but not sure of it.

Tim

in my humble opinion

(generally the "humble" is used in an ironic sense, IMHO)

I gather Commercial means "normal Postal Use" and Philatelic means ???I think I know what it means, but can't explain it properly. So if someone would enlighten me

Arlene

Arlene,

Philatelic usage normally means that the item has been produced or contrived to be collectible.

Commercial usage is anything that isn't philatelically inspired.

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Tony

Arlene,

Good question. How about a cover that is manufactured purely for collecting purposes and not the normal transport of information or goods? The cover would be the object of the exercise and not carrying out any commercial function.

Tim

Gee Didge, it is a hard one. I have thought about Glen's mailings before and wondered if the "Castlecrag" postmark will be avoided by future collectors in the years to come.

I reckon commercial mail from a Stamp Dealer automatically becomes philatelic even if only their business name is printed on the letter.

What about aerophilately? As an example, do you avoid obtaining covers addressed to E.A. Crome as they are 'philatelic'? Do first flight cachets make an object philatelic?

Cheers,

Ewen

OK, what about this scenario.

I pay a bill to my local chemist, who is also a collector. I send him a markets of Aust. (50c) and a 5c QEII from 1966 to cover 55c postage. Is it commercial or philatelic?
or I use a 45c and a 10c?

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Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.

Philatelic - who else has 40 year old mint 5c stamps?

Ewen

Waroff,

I would certainly not put that cover in my 1966 decimal usage collection. It does raise the question of covers that are both philatelic and commercial. It is serving a commercial purpose but is using out of date stamps. I would not add those to a collection.

Tim

Ewen,

I dont agree that mail sent by or to a stamp dealer is philatelic. I dont like the practice that most dealers do of using out of date stamps to sent their mail as I dont get a nice current usage cover. I particularly hate dealers using counter stamps. That really bugs me.

Tim

Tim,

What about this situation; you are rummaging through an old box and come across two envelopes, both with a stamp that you have been trying to obtain used commercially. One is addressed from a dealer and one isn't. Assuming they are both in good condition, which one would you go for?

I suppose, if they were both used in period it wouldn't really matter but the thought would still nag me (that one might be philatelic).

Ewen

This is an interesting topic, so I might as well fan the flames a bit. See the scan below. What if I had left the parcel that the item below came on, rather than remove the stramps and recycle the paper?

The piece itself is full gum, with the "infamous" Castlecrag cancellation, and it was used exactly for the purpose for which it was originally created - to pay postage for an overweight item.

It can be nothing but postally used, because that is what it was used for. To send something through the post. But I would bet that 20 years from now, it would never be described as such. I would not even try to sell it now as such (not that I would sell it).

It will always be a grey area, and open to interptretation. Any cover which shows anything unusual can be open to interpretation, and it will always be a subjective judgement call.




Norm

_________________
Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

Ewen,

I agree. If I had the choice I would take the non dealer one. It takes away one of my smell items.

Another question, could a Waltzing Matilda strip be genuinely commercially used? Or a Cook strip?

Tim

These post raise a lot of issues. The first is in this day and age when getting ANY stamps on mail is scarce does the commercial/philatelic divide matter as much?

Also IMHO I would say that almost all aerophilatelic covers with cachets etc. are contrived and therefore purely philatelic.

(OK you areophilatelist, try climbing into your Sopwith Camels and shooting me down!)

Rabbit

Pretty much all aerophilatelic mail is PHILATELIC - by definition.

This one I have on my rarity page right now. Many of these stamps are cat up to $750 EACH on commercial cover! Indeed you'd almost never see them. And it DOES pay the correct airmail rate to UK.

Despite the 17 different stamps, total franking is only 2/2d, which I think was actually the correct air postage. For starters there is a 1913 1d Engraved - cat $750 on cover. A 1d violet ... scarce on any cover - minimum $45. Even a 1913 ½d Roo .. "SG #1". The 1d Red is a rare Die 3 .. and better still, has the scarce plate flaw "White Flaw Below Right Wattle Stem" (ACSC 75N). Now that one is a $150 flaw OFF cover, and ANY Die 3 on cover is cat $400+ - without flaws!

The 1d Green is Large Multiple Wmk (cat $90 on cover.) 2d brown has a plate flaw etc. Even the 3d Airmail pair are from the scarce BOOKLET plate, with the small green booklet dots in margins - minimum cat $125 on cover etc. Melbourne Registered plus Ararat plus and UK Registered arrival backstamps.
.

Rabbit,

I love flight covers but agree with you 100%. They seem to nearly always be philatelic - exceptions may include, as you suggest, covers with no specially made cachets.

The divide between commercial and philatelic is very blurry it seems, especially when both are collectable.

Tims first day Roo cover has to be philatelic but, in my opinion, does not lose any charisma because of this.

Cheers,

Ewen

Ewen

Ewen,

I agree that the Roo FDC is philatelic and still collectable. Of course lots of philatelic items are collectable. Its just what catagory they fit into. Commercial covers are probably the only collecting area where this distinction is one that applies. I am sure that FDC collectors are not concerned that their covers are mostly philatelic. Though many years ago when I collected FDC's I thought commercial FDC's were worth a premium.

Tim

Okay, my Dad has been into postal history since it was invented- he still exhibits in his 80s. I'm also into it (obviously!). I live in the UK-he's back home in Oz. But all our mail is 'honest use' BUT all of it is dreadfully philatelic. But it's (normally) correctly rated etc... For example dad does speak to the local guy at the PO and gets nice handstamps - I always use Prestige Stamp Booklet material or equivalent. So, it's philatelic but it is real, normal use. So, sometimes it's just going to be both (and I also use nice stamps on normal mail as welll...)

I agree with you Jack - there are items that are clearly a bit of both.

Scott

It most definitely does.

I've shown this elsewhere on Stampboards, but it fits well with the theme of this discussion:



Bhutan 3D Project Apollo - postally used to Patna, India.

Very unusual on cover (think hen's teeth!!!).

This was addressed to a stamp dealer in India, so is "Philatelic" in that respect, but is also "Commercial" in terms of being genuinely postally used.

I've got a better definition......if I can afford it..it's commercial use. If I can't afford it, it must definitely be Philatelic. Just ask Aust Post.

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Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.

I guess in the 19th century, most if not all covers were commercial. Over the past century or so, the share of philatelic covers has been rising, and this will continue.

I believe philatelic covers, including FDCs, fit well into medal-winning collections, so it does not really matter. I know a dealer, who over the last 3-4 decades has been making philatelic covers with error stamps. They sell!

For me, however, I try NOT to collect philatelic covers.

I agree with Jack- many many covers may be "philatelic" in their intention but fully "commercial" in their use.

One thing- what difference does it make?

If I stick 5 x 36p stamps on an envelope, or 1 x £1, 1 x 50p and 1x 30p, or 1 x £1.50 and 1 x 30p etc etc- stamps are there to be USED- it doesnt matter how they are used providing they meet their primary purpose- pre payment of an item sent in the post.

I know what Didge is saying regarding philatelic and commercial but do we philatelists sometimes get consumed by our own smoke?

Folks,

Some good comments there and I am sure that philatelic covers would fit very well into lots of gold medal exhibits but if you are doing an exhibit on the commercial use of the Australian 1966 decimals would you include a FDC with the full set of stamps in it? I certainly would not.

Tim

I agree 100% with Slayers comments.if we follow the purists,then we should really be cutting all the Philatelic Used stamps OFF THE COVERS.burn the lot of them I say.
who,s with me,
come on lets tear them off,,,, burn them at the stake.

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

Another Ron ,senior moment.

I would even pay to watch him do some of the above to his collection.

non omnis moriar...

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Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.

I have some apparently non-philatelic flight covers from Holland to S Africa from the 30s or 50s (can't be 40s I don't think!). Not sure where they are now, but I'll dig one out sometime. I know the recipient or sender (now deceased) and they were family correspondence using the early KLM flights - and have the cachet to say so.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Nice Ian,

Start a thread and share some of them. The pictures are the best thing about this place, I reckon.

Cheers,

Ewen

I have much to share with the world - I just need to stop dealing in new issues and FDCs. Next year, perhaps.

_________________
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Folks,

I am always in for some philatelic (and commercial) fun and appreciate all of the posters on this site but the reason that I started it was genuine. As a collector of commercial cover I (really) would appreciate comments from fellow collectors about what are and are not commercially used covers.

I am pleased that lots of stampboarders have commented including members offering to burn (yes BURN) their collections. As a stamp collector myself (Yes I have a philatelic collection) I could not ever condone such an action.

I would however appreciate being able to post the odd cover (perhaps commercial and perhaps philatelic) and seek opinons from collectors with much more experience than myself on if a cover is considered to be philatelic or commercial.

Tim (to burn or not to burn that is the question?)

There is certainly a big collecting area in PR China for 'real posted' FDCs - ie that have gone through normal postal channels. The criteria are:

- properly postally used on the day of issue;
- not overstamped; and where the value of a set is more than the basic rate, then the cover is normally sent by a premium service such as registered, in which case...
- additional stamps to make up the rate should not be from the new issue but should be definitives.

Now these ARE philatelic, but they are much less philatelic than those churned out in hundreds of thousands by our postal administrations. See this blog - http://myfdc.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

I believe a cover should be considered non-philatelic if the sender does not care if it will be collected.

Throughout the wars in Vietnam, no northerners to my knowledge ever intentionaly made philatelic covers, which were believed to be "artificial", or "fake". This helps explain why Viet Nam Dan chu Cong hoa (the Democratic Republic of Viet Nam) covers in the 50 and 60s are more pricy today.

LIke this perhaps?



[/img]http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee342/Faustbelg/AAphoto0029.jpg[/img]

2/- was for up to 1 oz AIR, so 6/- (72 pence on this cover) for 3 oz was probably correct postage. But food strips are near unheard of COMMERCIAL used. The date is certainly right.

SEA mail would have cost a quarter as much. And in those days near as fast as air!

Sender was at a hostel so likely a dutch backpacker/tourist sending it home.

Very likely collector inspired but one could never say for SURE!

The heavy smeared cancels almost points to NON philatelic to me.

Neither of those on this cover are strips though.