Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

If someone posts a poorly described but extremely good item in an auction.

What is your response?

Do you, inform the seller of their ineptitude?

Sit on the auction till the last second to get it at the lowest possible price.

Bid what you think the item is really worth to you, the moment you see it.

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If it erupts, don't blame me!!

I selected "Would You"

....but really, I would contact the seller at all costs.

I assume that you are asking - would I tell them that it's worth a whole lot more? As opposed to asking would I just get annoyed and refuse to bid because someone puts up some crappy description like "see scan" taken in the dark, with no scan of the back, yet they can type out an additional 4000 words on their entire life history?

I never, ever know what stuff is worth (I just go by aesthetics and what I can afford) but if I did and in that case, I would put in a bid for what it is worth to me and not talk to them about it. Not to be unethical, per say...but I do believe that most things will go for what they will go for and if it is that special people will probably find it if the seller knows it's great worth or not. And because I really, really don't like to interfere with people and their actions at all unless they are personally bugging me or doing something extreme that they are unaware of (and selling a stamp in any way, shape or form doesn't count).

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'The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.' -H. P. Lovecraft

I invariably bid what the item is worth to me. At auction I expect its cost to be less than retail. If it is something I particularly want, and it is hard to find, I will am willing to pay retail value or above. It all comes down to what it is worth to me.

The price I am willing to bid also takes into account my assessment of condition etc and my assessment of the seller.

If it rises above the value I put on it, then I invariably dont buy it. I dont think ethics comes into it as an issue, as auctions are both buyer and seller beware.

ebay would go out of business in a heartbeat if the stamp sellers there KNEW what they were offering!

This example below from today is perfect -- clueless ebay seller highlights an £800 stamp in a photo, but does not have a clue what he has -

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=16129

Result -- the lot sells for a fraction of the value of just a single stamp in the large lot.

C'est la vie.

"Knowledge Is Power" and these clowns do not deserve to be told a thing.

I really do not feel "ethics" is at stake in such cases.

Glen

And as for option #3 - "make a bid commensurate with the item's value immediately" - my long held view is that only complete idiots bid anything on ebay until the last 5 seconds, but that discussion is on another thread.

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If it erupts, don't blame me!!

A similar question to this arose in another forum about 12-13 months ago.

At the time, I responded that I would advise the dealer of the situation. But even if someone chose to remain silent, it isn't a question of ethics.

How interesting, that you apparently know what I do not - about my own posts.

I repeat (and I know this IS what I think!) any schmuck who mis-describes stamps as he is too dumb to look up real values, deserves to lose money to those who DO. In all fields of life.

The example link I gave above is perfect. Clueless seller and informed buyer. LOSER - the clueless seller. Every time.

Not an 'ethical' question at all.

The ones who list up knowingly forged or knowingly mis-described stamps should -- as been our active policy here for 3 years, be reported to ebay, and exposed.

THAT is what I think. Trust me .. I just sent myself an email and double checked.

Glen

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If it erupts, don't blame me!!

I would definately keep quiet.

I guess some of the posters above dont like picking up bargains due to there superior knowledge.

Let the seller know, thats hilarious.

This is the other way around described as something better than what it actually is. Even though there was a scan of the back it was bid to US $80.99

I took the time to inform this seller he was selling a mis-described stamp.

Listed as ROOS AUSTRALIA 1913 5/- Shilling Scott # 12 . It was a C of A.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 0383324688





But I would probably make a snipe bid, and have done so on a few items.

I have picked up two commercially used 10 Shilling perf OS Kangaroos for the CTO price.

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We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

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If it erupts, don't blame me!!

I very rarely buy single items at Auctions,but buy bulk lots,the same with E-bay,,

so if, when I am inspecting cartons of stuff before the auction,I find good stuff,do I run up to the Auctioneer and say "Oh I discovered a mint sheet of 1d Blacks in lot 1109.that you have not discribed as being in that lot," No Sir.I bid on that lot,and hope no one else has seen it too.

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Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

As they say......One mans rubbish is another mans gold!



This item had a start price of US$150 on ebay approx 18 months ago.

The seller started it at the price he thought fair, yet I saw far greater value and no-one else bid.
Seller must have been happy with the start price, as he's a quite large ebay seller whom travels world wide obtaining material.

Unethical because I thought that the item was worth more? (an intuition proved correct at later date.)
I dont think so in this particular case.

So #3 for me. Place your bid for what you believe the item is worth!

An interesting discussion tho!

With most issues on this board, Io, my cyber-friend, you and I are in agreement.

Not this time, though.

A few random thoughts on the subject.

Your thread title implies that it is unethical to remain silent and not inform a seller that an offered item is more valuable that the seller seems to realize.

In a public auction, live or electronic, it is the responsibility of the seller to know what he or she is selling, and what its approximate market value is. It is not my duty as a buyer to inform the seller of anything.

Besides, how do I know what a seller knows? I've seen very obviously high value items started by eBay sellers at 99 cents. Clearly they know what they are doing, and are taking the risk that bidding will see the item sell at an appropriate level. It is a valid marketing strategy that can and does work.

Talk to any collector of a specialist area. Those collections are virtually always built by making use of superior knowledge.

Many dealers are aware that some items they sell, although they may not know which, are worth more than they realize at auction or even in face to face sales. It's a cost/benefit thing. Nobody can know everything, and it's not always worth the effort to find out. Most successful dealers I know are happy if they make a profit, and if a customer makes an occasional find, well, that's good for business.

There are circumstances where I feel differently. If I'm at one of my stamp clubs and a fellow member is making that kind of an undervaluing error, I will point it out to that person. In that case, I feel a duty to do so, because the stamp club is primarily a social organization where we all go to learn and to pass on knowledge if we have it. (Of course, more often than not, they have overvalued an item and I'll let them know that as well. ) Nothing annoys me more (well, few things annoy me more) at a stamp club than to see some members taking advantage of others in that kind of setting.

With Stampboards, it is a little less clear cut. I feel that we are a sort of club, and I have sent e-mails to members when I have noticed something up for sale at too low a price, and it's clear that it's from a lack of experience. On the other hand, we have some very knowledgeable folks here who are experienced sellers, and I would be less inclined to provide unsolicited advice to them.

I would, and have, given private advice to members who have e-mailed me with questions about an area where I have some experience and they do not, and I am only too happy to do so. I have also solicited that kind of advice myself on several occasions. (This is a great place for that! )

An interesting question, and it applies not just to stamps, but anything that can be bought and sold.

I'm a bit with Glen on this one, I constantly troll through auction lots looking for stamps that haven't been identified correctly that I can resell. It's partly how I fund my collecting. If I see a rare post mark in a lot of used stamps that the seller doesn't know about, I'll buy it and resell it. I don't feel unethical. Same as spotting varieties that haven't been picked up.

Unrelated to stamps but a similar situation, my wife bought a doll a couple of weeks ago at a garage sale for $2. She put it on eBay and it sold for $1225 (wish I could make that sort of profit! ) My wife knew what the doll was worth, but to the seller it was just an old worthless thing. My wife wasn't about to point out that it was valuable.

As Glen says, knowledge is power, and not just in stamps.

I would feel worse telling the seller later, I feel better that they're ignorant of their mistake. They got what they wanted for it and they're happy. It would make them feel bad if they later discovered they had something valuable.

If it was a forum member selling something however, I'd feel differently and definitely let them know.

Balf

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Be yourself. Everyone else is taken.

This is not a question of ethics, it is about information, and is an issue as old as dealing in anything has been going on.

If I have a possession, and I'm thinking of selling, I don't do so unless I check first to see what I've got. If I don't do that, and a buyer does their research, they've earned their bargain.

The thread topic is the equivalent of telling a buyer they've paid too much at an auction. Under those circumstances, assuming the seller hasn't lied, it's caveat emptor.

Not a question of ethics, simply a question of brains, work and common sense.

I one time emailed a seller that had a page of Heligoland stamps for sale most of which were reprints as usual but there were 3 genuine nice stamps with genuine postmarks and I suggested to him that he would do much better to separate the 3 good ones and sell them separately

I was told to mind my own business and did I work for Ebay trying to get more fees. I had the winning bid at $42 and then he refused to sell then to me at that price using my email as the reason when I started an Ebay dispute AND HE WON.

NO - I would not tell anyone again - Tony

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If no one else collects Heligoland or UPU how come I have to pay so much ?????

I'm not sure I would call it unethical to not tell the seller that what they have is worth more.

This is how it recently worked the other way around (where the photo didn't match the descriptions hype)... I recently advised a seller who listed an Australian "MINT ... PO FRESH" £1 Arms stamp.

Though listed as MINT and PO FRESH, it had a noticable (though faint) CDS cancel across a quarter of the stamp. I wasn't particularly interested in it, and it was only starting at $0.99 from memory, but thought they may not have noticed the cancel and so I was very polite and just mentioned that it has a cancel on it.

The response I got back left me puzzled... "just a mark on the plastic" (quoted verbatim and in entirety)... on rechecking that sellers listings, the original listing was cancelled and a new listing popped up with a new stamp (different perforation lengths) - though at least this time it was MINT and PO FRESH (at least from the photo's perspective).

If the response was just a thanks, or even no response at all... that would have been fine... but to come back with B.S. is what I call unethical.

It's all swings and roundabouts on ebay... you sometimes see what you think is a gem and is crap, and vice versa...

I too have tried to help a seller on TradeMe about a year ago and was told to F*** off and that I did not know what I was talking about.

Further he told me he had consulted with a "world renown web site" on the Penny Universal and that he was 100% sure he was selling at the right price.

So I put a bid in and won the item for $15. At that stage I informed him that the "world renown web site" was my own and thanked him very much for the $300 item !!

Fortunately I had the item in my possession and had paid for it because he then complained to TradeMe that I had "stitched him up"................ prat!!

Cheers

Roly

Iomoon ... here is a perfect example that I got in the mail today.

A UK dealer had this on their website as normal stock, and it cost me about $A45.

This below is how they described it, and they were large professional dealers and like me, members of the PTS.

"01/04/1936 Australian FDC Opening of Submarine Telephone Link to Tasmania, home made with wrong date."

It is clearly machine cancelled at Perth GPO March 31, (so backdating not an issue as in small town hand cancels) and it will re-write the FDC date of this most likely, and is probably worth at least TEN times what I paid.

Was it "ethical" of me to buy it at $45, and am I obliged to advise them it is worth ten times that?

Trust me, I will sleep very easily at night.

Glen

I dont believe ethics can even be considered for this type of thing.

Remember the old saying "one mans junk is another mans treasure" .

The value of an item is only what someone is willing to pay on the day, catalogues are guides not bibles. US philately is a perfect example where good specimens of common massively issued stamps selling for 1000s more than cat value.

I bet that whoever sold those roos, that Glen mentioned earlier ,would have been chuffed with their $150 sale , blissfully unaware that a major Australian kangaroo rarity was in amongst them, I know i would have been happy with the amount as a non australian collector. However now that its been brought to my attention I will be rechecking my stockpages of used roos that i've picked up through bulk sales.

Things like this are what make this website so great , a massive knowledge database of items , experience and information unobtainable virtually anywhere else.

Below is a scan of some items where i was lucky for once. These were bought from ebay in a mixed lot that had the worst photo ever. You could just about make out the officals under a heap of junk in the blurriest picture i've ever come across . I decided to save the picture and try and play with it a bit with photoshop. Once i'd sharpened it slightly i still couldnt make out if they were mint or used so just put a token bid in and won them.

Grand total to me $5 plus postage.




All stamps are MLH SG O120 , O121 , O122, O123 , O124a , O125 , O126a , O127 , O128 , O129 , O130 , O131 and O132.

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Collecting early empire MLH up to and including KGV.

I will double your investment and give you $10 for the third one in from the left on the bottom row.

Well spotted Roly!!


Offer declined at this point in time though

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Collecting early empire MLH up to and including KGV.

I totally agree with the response from pandadog28.

I use my knowledge of Papua to pick up varieties on eBay and other auction sites. If the seller can't get the perf or watermark right, why should I tell them?

Some of the rarer stamps I have in my collection have come from mis-identification or from completely missing a flaw.

I picked up Papua SG 48a, the "POSTAGIE" flaw on eBay for a whopping US$60. The seller missed the flaw and obviously all the other bidders did as well. The last one of these I saw sold, was in the April 2009 Prestige auction and it fetched AU$1400.

On eBay in particular, if you are prepared to "take a punt" and spend a little on a lot with poor descriptions or scans - you can win big time - just as Jonah did!

Bill

I agree. I think that kismet has just won 4 internets for this response.

One lot I purchased from Glen (who presumably made his margin) contained two stamps catalogued at over $A200 each because he did not bother to check the more than likely cheapies among a fairly extensive Czechoslovakia collection. (a couple of Hradcany's, among many dozens of the damn things) - and sold the lot at I think around 25% Catalogue (less the Hradcany's). These were the bonuses for me.

Io, do you honestly think that I should have contacted Glen and offered him more money? The original seller was happy, the reseller (Glen) was happy, and I was happy.

They may be forgeries - I will never know, I find this doubtful because it was a very old collection, and they look good to me. But some day, somebody else may get them expertised, and go "yay! I got these for next to nothing". His/her gain.

Somebody sells something at a price that they find satisfactory - meh! It happens at garage sales, thousands of them, every weekend.

Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

I'm going with the majority on this one - the photo/scan is an integral part of the description and usually a better guide to the lot: "a picutre is worth a thousand words" and all that.

Agree with previous posts that say there's no ethical dimension to this one. The seller has provided words and pictures and the value will be determined by that.

Also, as previously stated the advantages of using snipe software are clear, so Option 2 it is

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If it erupts, don't blame me!!

Less ethical as well as just bad etiquette. People should always do what they consider to be the ethical thing to do.

So, what would be the point of trying to undo the past after you already knew (when it was in the present) that is was something you considered unethical (unethical - by means of not acting on the ethical thing to do when you knew you should). No, I think that would make me feel worse. For sure.

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'The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.' -H. P. Lovecraft

Hearkening back to my "media ethics" course in college, everyone here could like come to a different conclusion on whether or not its "unethical" to not notify the clueless seller.

A disciple of the Judeo-Christian ethical perspective, for example believing in the "Golden Rule" (do unto others as you would have them do unto you), might find it unethical to not tell the seller, as he or she would want to be told were they in the seller's position.

On the other hand, a proponent of Objectivism, believing "that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness or rational self-interest" (Wikipedia), might very well find it unethical to tell the seller, as doing so would harm the individual by potentially preventing him or her from getting a deal.

There are of course numerous other ethical perspectives, and like most folks I know which one I personally subscribe to and I think everyone else should subscribe to the same thing...but I will end now lest I wax philosophical.

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Download free U.S. stamp album pages at philosateleia.com

Huh?

I picked an answer but couldnt tick a box with - it would depend!

If I thought someone had just made a big mistake I would feel obliged to tell them and I have done so.

For example I watched with interest a group of COGH triangulars including 3 woodblocks go to auction, but the bidding never reached an unknown reserve. They were passed in at about $2,000AUS still a bargain if you saw the set for sale.

Anyway, the seller then relisted them again - however this time and he didnt know how it happened, he listed as a buy it now price but the price was exactly the amount they had been passed in at! I saw them and messaged him saying are you sure? As I was happy to press buy it now! This new price is the passed in value? He messaged back with profuse thanks and removed the listing.

I did not want to gain from someones misfortune. I would find no enjoyment in owning those stamps! Why? Because Im a collector first with a conscience and a seller second.

What if someone had made an honest but stupid mistake? The type of the upset daughter gets to the keyboard and lists daddy's new Porsche at $5,000? Or an honest mistake of not typing enough zero's?

But if a dealer just lists an item for sale he usually puts a start of what he's happy to get back, or just wants some cash flow - whatever - and you see that its worth 2 or 3 times as much then bid away! He's a professional and in the business of selling more than 1 item a day. He working on turnover.

If its gone to auction, people are looking and searching for that illusive bargain, Im not so proud that I think I'm the only one who sees a rarity and the price should rise and rise perhaps surprising the seller. Good for you, good for him.

What bothers me about grossly underpriced items is this...It does concern me that some items being offered may be because they were stolen and the seller has no idea what he's got! (How did that guy in NZ go with all those cheap penny blacks. No one and no dealer who collects them would underprice them).

As far a moral and ethical beliefs go - only an idiot would argue that its unethical to tell someone they've made a mistake. "The pursuit of ones own happiness or rational self interest" may actually harm you because you missed the bargain. What absolute rot! indeed! How totally selfish!

Thats what leads "the world owes me a living" types to shooting a bunch of people in a shopping mall because their coffee was 3.4 degrees too hot.

So yes if I see it I will tell. Just the same as if I see stupid bids on fakes I will also tell. Remove the extremes and balance is maintained. Theres a nice philsophocal rant!

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

I like your answer, Allanswood. I think you're spot on--we're fortunate there aren't more people in the world who completely subscribe to Ayn Rand's Objectivism.

Taken to the extreme, it's an "I'm doing what's best for me--the women and children can drown" approach to life. I realize that's how a few go about things, but it certainly sticks in my craw.

Thanks Philatelius,
Yes its those extremes which need to be kept in check otherwise it leads not to the self determination they crave but the self extermination of not working together.

Like the saying goes "Bad things happen when good men (people) do nothing".

It reminds me of what happened to the inhabitants of Easter Island, for so long an unknown history because there was no one left to tell the story!

Yes, make someones day, feel good about yourself, an boy the beer tastes so much better after that!

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

I'd probably not say anything, as it's the old knowledge is power adage. And this sentiment goes for collectors of all things...I remember years ago watching a tv show about an American Civil War uniform collector whom sorted a rare uniform in a box, put it as far down into the box as possible before anyone else realized its value, and made a snipe bid come auction time. He called it the bargain of a lifetime. I applaud him and would do the same thing.

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Lover of all things KGVI.

My 5c worth

I very seldom buy online and most of my purchases are at auctions where i can actually see the items. If I see a beauty, there is no way I am going to let the seller or auctioner know as it is their own fault that they did not do their research properly.

Many esteemed collectors have built up valuable collections from dealers scratch boxes as many a gem has been found in them - do the collectors let the dealer know - of course not that is the dealers problem. If the dealer wants to conduct his/her business in selling stamps and documents then they had better know their products.

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Philatelists are not boring old F A R T S that smell of mothballs

Your F A R T S smell like mothballs?
What have you been eating?

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

Who are the two people who selected "would you"

Good work Glen

This is a difficult one - as in most ethical questions it all depends. As someone once said there is no black and white when it comes to right and wrong - only different shades of grey.

If someone is buying and selling to make a living or on e-bay for example I probably would not mention it ( whether or not I was a buyer ). However if I had a strong "hunch" that the person on e-bay was a rank amateur ( for example a first timer selling stamps among a lot of other "inherited" junk ) my conscience might well prod me toward disclosure.

I might feel that also towards a seller here on the board, as I would feel that in one sense I "know" the person, even if I don't, and there is therefore an obligation as to an aquaintance or friend.

I disagree with Glen and others about people knowing all about what they are selling. It is reasonable to expect that a dealer or experienced "regular" collector/advertiser has that knowledge but a person selling off their inherited assets cannot have it ( or what is more important with something as complex as stamps be expected to aquire it ).

I would feel guilty taking advantage of someone (genuinely) selling off their Dad's collection in blissful ignorance of it's value. Yes you can argue, as Glen and others have, that it is the collector's responsibility to pass on to their heirs the value of such collections - but you can also argue that their failure to do so is not the fault of said heir.

Similarly at Car Boot Sales I would be disinclined to notify an obvious trader with a large stock of items selling out of the back of a van, whereas I might tell a scruffy large obviously modest-income family selling miscellaneous household goods out of the back of a beat-up old car.

We all have our ethical point -of -view, but I do think it a wee bit hypocritical to expect to take advantage of other's ignorance while at the same time expecting dealers like Glen and others to have a high standard of ethics - hopefully we are not advocating a return to the law of the jungle.

As well as being unethical it is impractical. In a highly populated, complex world with many interdependant relationships, some sort of ethical ground rules are essential. The alledged over-regulated,over-governed societies we live in are the cause as well as the effect of the decline of individual morals and ethics.

The more unethical we are as individuals, the more the governors will take over the decision as to ethics and morality and we are too far down that slippery slope already in the developed world.

Just to conclude I am not sure about the title . How ethical are you ? Compared to whom? Ethics are not absolute. They are by nature comparative. Compared to God ? Adolf Hitler ? Tony Blair ? ( perhaps not !)

I rest my case

Malcolm

Well sometimes dealers do have the knowledge, but still do not see everything as they look at things very fast!

Often what a collector might take a week carefully peering at I'll assess in 10 seconds and go onto the next thing. A chocolate box of off-paper KGV heads type of thing.

If I sell something worth $100s in there for peanuts --- well I just smile and think that will make for a VERY happy customer for next time round!

Only recently I sold a huge carton of junk on here for $150 - that was worth well over $150 by my judgment, but unknown to me, included in it also was one very rare New Guinea first flight cover catalogued at $2,000.

Now do I NOT ever expect the buyer -- whether you or anyone else on this thread, to hand it back with a grimace and say- "you must have missed seeing this Glen".

Heck no -- that is WHY folks buy boxes of junk. The occassional chance of a major find!

"Ethical" to keep it?
OF COURSE IT IS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For me it is just good advertising, and life goes on. I wrote about this cover in my monthly "Stamp News" column, and lots of collectors got a laugh out of it.

The finder reported his find here - and I was the first to congratulate him. I've done busness with Sam for decades, and great to see it go to a nice guy.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16025y

I do believe in Karma though, and often it comes into play. Sam approached me last week and asked it I wanted to buy the cover back.

As it is a very rare item, I of course said I would, and told him I'd advertise it for $1,500, and if based on that, his asking price was sensible - he had a deal.

It was, and he got same day payment as promised, and it goes up on - http://www.glenstephens.com/rarity.html - Rarity Page later today for $1,500. (Along with the Edie Creek Goldfields inwards first flight cover, he also sold me via this board yesterday.)

So Sam made a great find, and also ended up with a decent chunk of change in his account - at exactly what HE thought was fair under the circumstances. And avoided the myriad delays and fees and commission and GST deductions of auction.

I am happy as I will make money on it twice, as it will sell in days at $1500.

No-one's "ethics" were comprised or abused, so "WIN - WIN" all round I'd say.

Those of us who remember the Ampol Stamp Promotion in the '60's will also probably recall seeing newspaper articles where a rare stamp "accidentally" got included in one of the free packets, and that the promoters would make an enquiry into "what went wrong".

Accidental? I don't think so. "What went wrong?" Nothing - it was intentional and got a lot of free marketing.

Other examples, less common these days, are dealers who sell bulk, and ask buyers to "please tell us if you find something rare". They made their margin on the resale anyway, so the free publicity (for their next ad) saying "Fred found a $500 stamp in a $25 parcel..." Who wins?

Collector = looks for flyspecks
Dealer = looks for markup and quick sale and turnover

Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

I generally only bid on ebay if I see the prospect of a bargain. There are enough risks for the buyers esp. when the scans are usually lousy.
But there was one lot about a month ago which might have given me a guilty conscience. It consisted of 9 aust. KG V inverted wmks, well scanned front & back. 6 were common, one was a nice 3d worth about $100 which I didn't need,
i was a 1 1/2d green cat. (at) $25000 & the last was a 1 1/2d CofA & if it was genuine it would have been the first one discovered. So although I was highly sceptical I kept an eye on it & No interest whatever was shown.
I emailed the seller & asked if he was sure- he turned out be a very nice bloke: said "I think so, but will refund, no problems". (That must have given him a clue.) Anyway in the last minute somebody bid 1% & I bid 10%. Of course neither was inverted, but they were not that easy to see. Turned out he did not collect australia & just sold off anything he got in mixed lots. Even so??????????

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mobbor

100% correct. I have a book of the actual press clipping here somewhere that Bill gave me.

This would get on page 3 of the Tabloids all over the country.

"Little Julie Smith from Penrith finds rare stamp in Ampol free packet"

There would be a picture of a smiling Julie clutching the £2 used roo Bill Hornadge's staff had allegedly added to the packets "in error".

Bill is still with us (in his 90s now) and I was talking to him a few weeks back so he can still sue me for defamation, so I cannot say here the "lucky" girl was possibly his niece or grand-daughter in my view.

Seven Seas would have an official quote that they were so busy making up 5 million stamp packets for Ampol Petrol they had no idea what was being added to them by their clueless staff.

Leading dealers of the time would piously comment the stamp was rare and worth "$XXXX" - and everyone got a plug in mass circulation media and STAMPS were more popular than ever.

That promo turned Ampol's profits around in that year and got a big mention in their annual report at the AGM.

Talking of the tabloids ... The test I like to apply is that old question: Would you want what you've just done plastered over page one of tomorrow's daily paper?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Perhaps all collectors should warn their potential heirs that the world is full of unscrupulous dealers who will take advantage of their ignorance and offer unfair prices if approached with a deceased estate collection.

Perhaps, like some of us, one should simply explain to heirs a guestimate (and that is all it can be) of what one should get from a scrupulous dealer, how quickly they will get paid, make a list of honest dealers (we all know, or should know, who they are) and what the time delay will be (and possible on-costs) if they choose auctions instead.

It's easy enough to do in a will attachment, and if you have a 5 - 6 figure collection, it is absolutely insane not to do it.



Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

I will be ethical when youngsters come to me and want to trade a stamp with me that has value but they don't know it. I will tell them and say they need to come back later when they had a proper thought about it.

However adults is a different thing. Why in the world should I tell them what it is worth. They should do their homework. Just like I have/had to do.

And when internet sellers are to laisy to write things out clear or add proper scans to it. Stampdealers and actiounhouses are even more different. They are "profesionals" and I'm the last one that will be telling them something.

A few years back I bought this postal staionary card for 4 times the catalogue value at a way overpriced (and a bit arogant) dealer. He was looking very happy to see some one buying his overpriced material as he claimed to know so much about postal history.

Yes I had noticed that......................... that it was a air story.

I bought a postal stationary reply card send by the special crossborder mail rate back to the Netherlands. Crossborder mail is hard to get anyway and the chance of getting a replycard by that rate is almost winning the jackpot.

It was the first one I ever saw and I saw a lot! The price I paid for that overpriced card can easily have 2 zero's added to it's value.

I have more of such stories to tell and the only reason I can is because I learn everyday something new.

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Knowledge is Power, but it is worthless when you don't share it!

As fromdownunder has pointed out, any collector too lazy or too foolish to have SPECIFIED CLEARLY what to do with their stamps on their passing is, IMHO - a fool - or to use Norm's word "insane". Do not blame your relatives for YOUR own laziness!

Each few years I write that out in great detail -- it might well be worth you reading it -

http://www.glenstephens.com/sndecember03.html

And then you wil NOT "turn in your grave" at what is occuring. As it will be exactly as you WANTED to occur.

================

The first part of it goes like this ---

I bought five large Estate collections during the past month, and in all cases the deceased had left no guidance whatever to the family as to WHERE the material should be offered.

If you have some spare time on your hands over the next week, you really should read the following very carefully, as it truly concerns each and every reader.

A local TV program bought my attention to that fact that a vast number of Australians die without leaving a legal last Will and Testament.

Roughly half of all Australians die intestate. That is, they die without leaving a valid, Legal Will. I have no doubt similar figures apply to British and American readers. Naturally, none of us wishes to die unexpectedly - but we are all mortal, and accidents happen every day.

Less than 50% of Australians prepare a legal Will, often in the mistaken belief that all their worldly goods and chattels will automatically go to their next of kin. Without a Will, the Government may levy death duties and the Government also decides on the distribution of the assets.

You may wish to make a bequest to a friend or relative to acknowledge a special relationship. There may be items of sentimental or monetary value that you wish to give to a specific person. You may wish to leave a portion of your estate to a favourite charity, institution or cause. Unless this is specified in a Will it will likely NOT occur.

Prudence and common sense dictates that we prepare our families against any such eventuality. I did some further research, and was astounded to learn that some 42 per cent of Adult citizens of Victoria do NOT have a Will.

These figures were compiled by the Victorian Manager of ANZ Bank Trustees. As Victoria has the highest number of stamp collectors AND stamp dealers in Australia (by a long way) this figure is very significant to this article.

Even accepting many adults do not make any kind of Will, I'm darned sure that 90% of those who DO have wills and are connected with stamps, even when dealers, do NOT make any specific written arrangements as to the disposal of their stamps upon death. Be honest think about your own situation .... How do YOU score here???!!!

Sometimes, a family member is also keen on philately, and stamps are passed on to that person, which is a sensible option, but clearly if that person eventually dies without a will the same situation exists. The reality is that countless thousands of Australian collectors die every year, leaving absolutely NO guidance to their non-collecting families as to their specific wishes re the stamp collection.

Often a collector will spend many thousands of hours over a lifetime buying, mounting, studying, sorting and enjoying their stamps. It really does seem odd to me that they can't bother taking just an hour of this time to briefly outline instructions for their eventual disposal.

etc, etc,

In view of the above, please give some serious thought to leaving a precise note among your personal papers, or with your Solicitor, or better still in your Will. Simply advise precisely how you wish your material disposed of in the event of your death.

If you are lazy, why not at least tear out this page, and leave that with your papers, which will serve as a warning to the family not to accept the local second-hand dealer's offer at least!

Either way, you owe it to your family to do something positive. Often the dealer or Auction house from whom you mostly purchase will be precisely aware of the special value of any unusual or specialist items you have.

Often your wife or husband will have met or spoken to your most usual suppliers, which makes the process a lot easier after a bereavement, rather than dealing with a totally unknown person or firm selected from the local Yellow Pages or whatever.

Likewise for stamp DEALERS. They have stocks that typically run into $100,000's, and frequently millions of value. I have specifically noted in my Will a trusted colleague to be engaged by the Executor to lot and sell my stock to best effect.

I have instructed in writing that he be paid his usual hourly rate and all expenses connected with the work. You'd be amazed how few dealers make ANY such arrangement, and likewise often receive a fraction of the true value of their lifetime stock.

etc, etc,

I take on board everything said here,however none of this touches on personal ethics. We are not talking about what dealers, deceased collectors and e-bay sellers should and shouldn't do - their shortcomings or not - and even with all due respect to Glen and others whether they have made an error or whether they have achieved their required mark-up. These are all in my opinion technicalities.

We are talking about personal morality, and OUR individual perceptions of right and wrong. All the arguments trotted out here are, again, in my opinion, excuses to justify why it is OK to take advantage of someone else's ignorance. Note from my original post I' m not squeaky-clean myself, so I am not taking an " I am holier than thou" stance, but let us not hide behind excuses. We have to take personal responsibility for our own ethical( or otherwise) behaviour.

I am the last person to criticise anyone elses morality - I quite often fail to live up to my own professed standards, but am quite willing to accept criticism ( and what is often more damaging my own self-criticism) when I do so. After all none of is perfect - and we all sin from time to time ( to use an outdated concept ), some more than others.

Also to use the excuse that many e-bay sellers cheat is not an excuse. The person that you or I "cheat" likely is not one of them. Two wrongs do not equal one right .

I think that this is actually quite a dangerous topic. I am trying to use reasoned argument, but it would be quite easy for some people to take offence and become offensive in return - and also lead to individual "fallings out".The last thing I think we want is for people to start mud-slinging about individual's behaviour. As I said before ethics are a personal thing and between each individual and his conscience ( or his God if he has one).
Also I would hate someone to start comparisons like "How is this action different from stealing from a shop?".I happen to think that is a spurious argument but there are those who do not.

While not expecting to have "the last word" I think that moderators should consider whether there is any further mileage in this particular journey - we are getting into fairly hazardous territory - there could be religious and cultural difficulties ahead !

Malcolm