Postage Stamp Chat Board and Stamp Bulletin Board Forum

A UK dealer had this on their website, I pounced on it, and it arrived here today. MOST interesting.

This below is how they described it, and they were large professional dealers, and like me, members of the PTS.

"01/04/1936 Australian FDC Opening of Submarine Telephone Link to Tasmania, home made with wrong date."

It is clearly machine cancelled at Perth GPO March 31, (so backdating is not an issue, as with many small town hand cancels) and it will possibly re-write the "FDC" date of this, and is probably worth a great deal more than what I paid.

Back in this era FDC were a generally un-collected novelty. In the entire period of Kangaroo issues from 1913 to 1936 there are only two FDC's recorded - despite the myriad of face values, of changing watermarks, and even many colour changes. No collectors seemed to care.

The same is true of our KGV heads - very few issues have genuine FDCs recorded. For some, the earliest recorded date is often assumed to be the day of issue.

"Mr Wesley", John Gower wrote in 1960's - "prior to 1936 as far as I can remember, "First Days" and the collecting of same, has very few friends among the philatelists at that time. Very few seemed to be interested in that branch of the hobby, and the reason for this I think was on account of no printed or cacheted covers being available to the few collectors who were interested."



Some genius bid $A5,125 for this apparent simple date-slug error on a commercial cover at auction in February 2009, that had a shopping list scrawled across the back. The cover had some of those types of shopping notes erased from face and back the auctioneer advised, and clearly had some tone spots.

There has been no evidence presented by anyone I have seen, that these 1d green KGV stamps existed anywhere in Tasmania on April 30, 1924, much less in tiny Ulverstone! Indeed I do not believe there is any evidence of a cover even with a May 1 date from anywhere in Tasmania. Supporting my date-slug error theory, unless one can be shown. Some KGV heads NEVER went to Tasmania at ANY time, such as the 4d violet of 1921.

However this cover was touted as being cancelled the "DAY BEFORE ISSUE" and was allegedly unique thus -- and the genius bidders pushed it up to $A5,125.

Yet we are to believe tiny Ulverstone had the new stamps on April 30, and sold them - and yet no capital city - or ANY other city in the country did. Hmmmmm. Highly unlikely is my view. Anyway, someone paid $A5,150 for this this rather sad looking thing, and good luck to them when they try and sell it!

The Prestige Philately description for the auction stated in part -

"We expect that a local merchant arrived at the post office late in the day to post a batch of invoices; the 1d green stamps had been placed in the counter-book ready for the next day's business; they were sold to the customer in the normal course of business, release the night before they were supposed to be issued being in the "Who cares?" category."

Hmmm. Well that may be correct. I still aim for a simple date-slug error, very common in small offices as it was done manually, was very fiddly, and mistakes often occurred.

There is NO such chance the Perth GPO machine cancel was likely to be wrong at the GPO at 11.45am. And a simple month or day error was not possible as THREE wheels then needed to be wrong. Clearly the date and date are showing "Perth/11.45am/31 MAR/1936/W.A."

The OFFICIAL release date seems to be agreed by catalogues as April 1.

Clearly this is a day BEFORE. The morning of the day before in fact. March 31, 1936 was a Tuesday -

http://www.hf.rim.or.jp/~kaji/cal/cal.cgi?1936

So very plausible it was used March 31.

The only other question is - was it possible for the stamps to have been at the Perth GPO on March 31?

Well April 1 FDC's of this are not common at all to check against, and are listed in the ASC at $125, and indeed I've seen them sell for far more. There were virtually no illustrated covers at that time for anything (see Gower quote above) - that aspect all largely started later in 1936, mainly with the August 1936 SA Centenary trio, and then really took off in mid 1937.

There seems to be concrete evidence that these stamps WERE at Post Offices March 31.

The new "Australian First Day Covers" book by Michael Moore et al, that I reviewed last month depicts one that is stated to be the first ever John Gower (founder much later of Wesley covers) FDC. (Despite Gower writing that his "first" illustrated FDC was made 5 months later!)

That FDC is illustrated on page 2 and is cancelled April 1, 1936 at remote "Antechamber Bay" on just as remote Kangaroo Island, SA!

As there was only a sea ferry a couple of times a week, from the also remote Yankalilla SA coastal area, to Kingscote Kangaroo Island. Clearly if they were on hand there April 1, they almost certainly would have been at Perth GPO, March 31.

The cover is denoted "First Day Cover" in the same pen hand as the address. And interestingly has "March 1936" at lower right.

If the genius buyer or under-bidder on the rough looking 1d green "Day Early" FDC, would like to send me just 20% of what was cheerfully paid for that, you'll have a REAL "Day Before" cover for your money.

Comments?

Glen

Wow nice buy.

I had to read it twice over I don't quite understand the KGV cover, but... my guess for the other is that a very charming (and smart) young man gave a pretty little postal worker a sweet smile and a promise to get an earlybird stamp special.

The little lass then hid the envelope in a pile of others, sent them to Perth and they lived happily ever after.

Ha ha, seriously though what do you think the cover is actually worth?

Ha ha, seriously though what do you think the cover is actually worth?[/quote]

Sally, I have not decided yet, but will probably place $1000 on it on my Rarity page, and I feel sure it will sell.

I auction nothing, never have - but who knows .. might be another $5,000+ item at auction if 2 keen collectors both want it.

Pre-Decimal FDC collecting is still in its total infancy as Frank Pauer's decade long awaited catalogue is STILL not out, but that will revolutionise the field.

Glen

I should have read it 3 times over, for now that I have it makes EVEN more sense.

A very nice find, Glen

The question I would like to ask is this:

How long before the official date of release would the stamps have arrived at the main Post Offices in the State capitals?

No idea how long before, but if they clearly were on remote "Antechamber Bay" on just as remote Kangaroo Island (well before air mail existed there) on April 1 they almost certainly were at GPO's the day before.

Great cover Glen.

I have a 3d Tas. cable FDI from the Post office North Melbourne, which is probably not that unusual being in the heart of Melbourne.

I think this cover that you have is superb, being first of all from WA and a few hours before the day of issue.

As far as the delivery of stamps to Post offices goes, I think you are correct that the major post offices would have issues for the first day, as occurs now, but some of the more remote locations with no air service may be a day or so lagging behind.

For example, the 1927 Canberra issue (all be it the first commemorative issue for Australia) indicates a concerted effort was made to give all post offices copy of the issue. Rosenblum (The Stamps of the Commonwealth of Australia) quotes "Careful arrangements were made to ensure the simultaneous issue of these stamps at every Australian Post office on May 9 1927 (first day of issue) and it has been established that such simultaneous issue actually took place"

So far evidence backs this up, although I am sure a few post offices/agencies may have missed out by a day or so, but if they were able to organise efficient delivery of stamps for this particular issue, I am sure that the experience and infrastructure would be in place to do so again, particularly some 9 years later for the Tas cable issue.

Great cover Glen, I would love to be able to include it in my pre-decimal commemorative exhibit, but sad to say I may have over indulged just before Xmas with some auction purchases

Will be really interested in the progress of this item

Cheers
Jeff

I think the Tas Cable early use cover is an interesting item and I congratulate Glen for his find.

I am a little amused however with the comments made about a certain person who purchased a 1d green KGV early use FDC and the fact the inference is made that this purchase was ridiculous.

What unfortunately Glen has not clearly understood in this matter is that the change from the 1d violet to the 1d green KGV in 1924 was a UPU instigated requirement. Now if anybody is familiar with the public service mentality in the early part of last century, you will be aware that the Postmaster General's Department would have done their utmost to assure that the new 1d green stamps would have been available at every post office around the country well before the issue date.

As a matter of fact, since this cover was purchased at Prestige last February and not long after (about 1&1/2 weeks), a distinguished authority in philately, Dr Kellow uncovered archival proof that these stamps WERE in fact available at every office Australia wide, he gives proof why they were and how this situation eventuated and that the 1d violet issues were packaged up to be sent for destruction to a state central point of accumulation, in this case Hobart the last day before the new stamps were to be issued.

As Glen clearly says, small country offices sometimes accept mail from locals via the back door late after the office is closed for trade but not closed for sorting & distribution. It looks like this may have been the situation at ULVERSTONE at 6.00pm the day before the issue date. With the 1d violet stamps already having been pre-packaged to send out for destruction, the possibility of using the 1d green stamp was high.

I think that as collectors, we need to keep an open mind in these matters and if one sits down and thinks logically, we can determine that a certain circumstance or situation may be possible. Most great collectors who have done well over the years have had the ability to research this material and make a judgment on these items prior to actually getting all the proof. Once the proof is then found, the items are of course worth much more than originally purchased.

Back to the 1d green KGV first day cover. Brusden White which is the authority when it comes to KGV items prices the only known 1d red KGV first day at $20,000 and if it goes to auction, i am sure will sell for a much higher price than this. So now that the 1d green is found to be genuine, what does it make that cover worth? I think the so called genius who had the forethought to purchase this cover and did their own research prior to the auction is the ultimate winner.

Sorry, Glen says or said nothing of the sort. Please stick to facts, and do not misquote me.

The Auction house PRESTIGE came up with that fanciful fairy tale, complete with bizarre ockerisms.

Re the 1d Green .. please add your debate on the long thread on that subject, as it has no bearing on this matter, which relates to a clearly marked "FDC" cancelled without doubt a day early, with a GPO machine cancel. With no date wheel glitch on a handstamper being the likely cause, as I have stated was the case IMHO with the 1d green "shopping list" cover.

Disagree with the latter all you wish (you already have on there!) but on the correct thread please for that discussson.

Glen

I did not infer it was 'ridiculous' or use that word. He just overpaid wildly -- IMHO.

I just hope the same $5,150 buyer still clearly has too much money laying around, and sends me a mere $1,000 cheque for something very similar, of which there will never be a cloud or reasonable doubt about.

To return to the topic in question......

A few random thoughts.

KGV/Roo "FDCs" and commemorative FDCs are quite different areas. As Glen says, the former are extremely rare as there were often no official first days of release and the term "Earliest known use" is more appropriately applied to these issues.

The 2d on 1½d Red KGV is a good example. For many years, the FDI was believed to be 31 Jul 1930, but examples from 28, 29 & 30 Jul have since been discovered. I used to own a cover cancelled 31 Jul 1930 at Tooraweenah, with "First Day Cover" handwritten on it. No doubt it was the FDI at Tooraweenah and before the 28/29/30 Jul dates were discovered it was worth a lot of money - not any more though

Commemorative stamps were a different matter, with planned, co-ordinated and pre-publicised dates of issue.

As Glen says, illustrated FDCs in this era are not common, but they do exist, some with the FDI date printed as part of the design, proving that the PO released the information well in advance.





Plenty of examples also exist without any specific-to-issue cachet, but endorsed as FDI either hand or type written. All are cancelled 1st April.





As Glen also says, the chances of the date being an error on Perth GPO's machine canceller are slim.

So how did the cover come about?

Certainly not as part of any official release - the catalogues do not need to be rewritten.

Therefore, it can only have been done by accident by someone not paying attention, or deliberate action on the part of a PO worker - probably in collusion with a collector. The fact that it is clearly a philatelic piece suggests the latter.

Why does it say March in the lower right corner?

If the cover was the result of a deliberate pre-release to create a unique cover, then writing March would seem natural thing to do.

An alternative possibility is that March 1936 refers to when the cable itself was inaugurated - stamp issues are not always on the same date as the event they commemorate. Does anyone know when the cable was actually "switched on"?

I would therefore say that the FDI for this issue, was, and remains April 1st.

This cover was almost certainly genuinely cancelled a day early, under unknown circumstances. I would personally regard it as a curiosity, rather than an item of philatelic importance.

Cheers
Chris

The only reference i can find says it was laid in 1935!

http://atlantic-cable.com/stamps/Other/index4.htm

Chris - I agree with you on most Roos and KGV, however in the case of the 1d green we are earnestly advised the 1d green had a gazetted national issue date of May 1. The ACSC states 2 x real May 1 FDCs exist of this stamp. The cover some genius paid $5,150 for was (apparently) cancelled the day before - April 30.

No-one has claimed that April 30 shopping list cover was a First Day .. simply an envelope someone apparently had cancelled a day before the official date of issue - exactly as is this one. So I assume you regard that $5,150 auction price cover too as a "curiosity", of no real philatelic importance?

Glen

We all know some quite insane prices are paid for "FDC" related material in diabolical condition - that are not even FDC's!

We had a guessing thread recently where almost no-one guessed this ratty looking thing sold for $A6,650 - and is not even close to being a FDC.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15212&tart=124

So weird things occur with FDC prices at times.

Hi Glen,

I found that reference too, still can't find any details on when it was actually switched on.

I'm right with you as far as the 1d Green goes, as this is one of the KGV Heads with a known pre-designated FDI (as far as current knowledge goes).

So yes, I would regard both covers as curiosities. If you can get someone to give you $1000 for the Cable cover, good on you, but I can't see it being worth anywhere near that.

Cheers

Chris

Chris -- until the Prestige Auction sale at $5,150 for the 'shopping list' 1d Green cover (well above estimate) I'd have agreed with you 100% - but as we know it takes at least two bidders make an auction.

Oddly as both covers may well be unique "day before issue" covers, some folks seems to seek such things. And at least two current collectors seem to think ~$5000 is the ballpark for such pre-war pieces.

Glen

Amazing.

I passed this thread onto Frank Pauer to take a look at. Frank has with no doubt THE largest and most extensive Australia FDC collection in existence. Nothing else comes close.

If Frank does not have it, or has not see it -- basically it does not exist!

He phoned me with some amazement to say he found that he had a near IDENTICAL cover. (See top pic above.)

Same handwriting, same addressee, same comments along base. And exactly the same 11.45am Perth 31 March machine cancel!

Frank recalls buying this 10 or 20 years ago, and says he has not seen or heard of another since.

He agrees that being a GPO roller cancel there is no doubt whatever these covers were both cancelled on the day BEFORE issue. (He also pretty much shares my view on the 1d green KGV "shopping list" cover and the price obtained!)

As an aside, I asked him how the superb new Cover society book was selling after my reviews and others, and he says they are near sold out and they have done 2 or 3 times more copies than they expected - so if you need one, read the review below, and order fast! I have them for sale, as do most large dealers.

I asked him how his own decade long in the making Australia FDC catalogue was coming along. Frank said he and Paul Walker have taken the work back from the previous guy, and are starting afresh with it, so it will still be a while yet until it appears.

http://www.glenstephens.com/snnovember09.html

According to "The Age" newspaper it reported on 25 March 1936, that it was switched on "last night"

Does that mean it was switched on 24 March 1936 ?

Read article here >>>

http://news.google.com.au/newspapers?id ... %2C2649479

Edit: sorry, top of the page says "Thursday March 26 1936" so it was Inaugurated Wed 25th March 1936

I was reading the webpage date, which isn't the same as the newspapers actual date.

Skippy

Glen, why not put it into one of the Auction Houses, and then the value will be established

True.

However Philly, in 30 years as a dealer I have auctioned almost nothing. Many smaller dealers need to use Auctions as they have no way of reaching a global audience for such a piece. If their 50 clients are not pre-war FDC collectors where will they sell it? Luckily I have the webpage and worldwide visitors to enable that wide coverage almost instantly.

http://www.glenstephens.com/rarity.html

I simply prefer to put a fair nett price on such things, and list them on my 'Rarities' page. I will list this up at $A1,000 tomrrow if not sold before, as I think that is fair and reasonable. I am not greedy, and think 'fair is fair'.

A lot of collectors prefer to see the EXACT price an item will cost them, and then give it some thought, and not have any nasty surprises. If you buy a dealer (or any overseas vendor) lot at a a large auction that is offered as a "T" lot, 10% GST must be added to the hammer price and THEN the 15% buyer's fee on top of that!

At an auction, with a $1,000 estimate it might sell for $1,000 - if which case my cheque - 6 months from now, will be $850 after seller fee deducted, but the BUYER will be invoiced $1,265. So I am $150 worse off than selling for $1000 now. And the buyer is $265 worse off than paying $1,000 now. The only winner here is the Auction house.

Even if it sells under the hammer for $1,200, my cheque will still be only the ~$1000 I can readily sell it for now, once their fees are deducted. But the BUYER's invoice will be over $1,500, when the "T" GST, and Buyer's Fees are all added on. Many collectors forget all those "add ons" when bidding at auction - which on 4 figure pieces, really do pile up.

Of course such a piece might well sell for $5000+ like the 1d KGV cover if the same two keen FDC buyers chase it up at auction . . who knows. The only loser then is me, but I feel that price was an absurd aberration, and $1,000 right now will do me just FINE!

Frank Pauer agreed with me yesterday he thought $1000 if listed on my Rarity page will be readily achievable, and that is what I am doing.

Pre-Decimal FDC collecting is still in its total infancy. Many key pieces today wil be worth three or 4 times present levels in 5 years time, when the Pauer/Walker catalogue is released, and worked from.

Arthur Gray got $7.15 million for selling most of his Kangaroos collection in 2007.

http://www.glenstephens.com/arthur-gray-kangaroos.html

If offered just 10 years earlier, he would have got about a QUARTER of that. FIVE MILLION $$ LESS. Why? As monograms and imprints and proofs in 1997 were only just starting to get popular.

Those who bought then, like Arthur have seen phenomenal increases, and good catalogues of them like the ACSC have offered accurate price guides.



I sold this unique Die 2A Monogram block 6 in November 1999 for $A3,500 and was delighted with the price, which I felt was fair - at THAT time. At the Gray sale, the same block was invoiced at $A21,000. That is a SIX fold increase from BUYING off a dealer, to selling at auction. Not bad in 7 years.

http://www.glenstephens.com/ad.pdf

Truly scarce material is nearly always a good buy, when you look at it a decade later.

This cover seems to only have 2 copies known. Frank's is not for sale, so $1,000 for the only one that is available for sale, seems a fair deal to me.

The reality is that many "FDC's" have cancels on them that are not related to the day the cancel was used! Near all post offices in Australia today are LPO's - or private businesses. Clearly there is a high chance that "monkey business" might be to blame if a cover of a 'December 1' issue is offered cancelled November 30 etc. They could be done to order very readily these days. November 30, November 15 -- you name it.

John Gower founded Wesley Cover Service in the 1950s, and at the time he ran it, also was also Postmaster at Larg's North - a beach-side suburb of Adelaide. The book above rightly points out that all KINDS of "Funny Business" occurred with backdated cancels from Larg's North. Often a decade or so backdated, done by Gower or his "helpers".

Capital City GPO's were an entirely different kettle of fish. The huge machines in there cancelled 100,000 mail pieces a day, and the slugs were changed each 15 minutes in most cases - this one being 11.45am.

There is no record of any 'funny business' that I am aware of involving a GPO machine canceller. i.e it can be taken as read these 2 covers were cancelled for certain on March 31, and even more precisely between 11.45 and noon, when the time slug would have again been re-set.

Glen,

Could you put a copy of the FDC book above, away for me please?

Thanks,

Tim

I would like one also. I haven't purchased before, so I may need a nudge in the right direction. Thanks!

They are near sold out as reported above.

Please order via - www.glenstephens.com/order.html and call it "FDC Book" - a really useful reference book - and highly recommended - www.glenstephens.com/snnovember09.html

Glen

Done.

Do you still have more of these FDC cats left? if so, at what price for one?

NOTE Well !!!! these are not actually Catalogues and have no prices, only comments like scarce,few seen etc,,
BUT having said that its a MUST HAVE if you are into Australian FDC,wealth of information.
I got one just before Christmas, and Have found one cover which is in the scarce class already and that one cover will pay for the Book.

Thanks for the heads up MrB. Fortunately I'm not after it for pricing, I'm after a resource so I know which I'm missing Does this book at least provide a thorough list of the main FDCs made? (at least AP issues, though would be handy for the other large scale makers of FDCs).

In A word Yes,
But its set out more like a ref book that a listing,
so cover Publishers are listed in each chapter,and it may take a bit of page turning until you find what you want,
But the illustrations are great,and you will find stuff you never knew existed,

Rule Number 1 is always to read the Instruction Book.

http://www.glenstephens.com/snnovember09.html

I have an identical illustrated cover as The Pom , but with a Newcastle cancel instead of Sydney.



Faust

Copy of my early dated 5c wattle cover as previously indicated. Nice Melbourne parcel roller cancel as well as Melbourne slogan cancel at base both dated 24th April
[img]s1000.photobucket.com/albums/af124/smacma/?action=edit&current=scan0017.jpg[/img]

i noted my image did not connect to the link. Any suggestion would be appreciated thanks

suda
s1000.photobucket.com/albums/af124/smacma/?action=edit&current=scan0017.jpg
is not a full image code

Maybe you should have a read here first

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15603&start=0

And preview your post 1st before you submit

Thanks Glen;

I did try this originally but did not work so i assumed that the image may not necessarily come up straight away unless the administrator checked it first hence my submission.

I will try and get in in the correct format

Tried again so it looks like it worked this time

Great looking cover.

I think this producer only ever made one cover, Frank Pauer advised me?

It's by the Northern Stamp co, Newcastle. They made a few FDCs in the mid-late 1930's. See Australian First Day Covers, pp149-151.

Spot on Chris.

I'd almost bet the house the one Faust of Belgium posts here is identical to the one on page 150.

Thoughts?

Glen

Ha!

No I see a MINOR difference .. can anyone else spot it?

The cancel is not at the same place, there is a small diffence.

Faust

Correct!

The far right of the roller cancel is a few mm difference in location.

This sold yesterday for A$113.61

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350309285203

What do you think of that as a price Chris?