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The research you have is incredibly limited. Have you looked at anything from Tuvalu or Scotland Yard?

Hi Kevin,

Philatelists Ltd is the ones who started the Island issues not Clive. Many people get mixed up what with all the different names of companies involved.
Philatelists Ltd.
Philatelic Distribution Corporation
Philatelist Caribbean Ltd.

The reprinting was not authorized until 1987 which was 4 years after the first LOW trains/cars issues began. Understanding the process of reprinting can only be shown with invoices of what was shipped to the PDC. Obviously the varieties were never shipped to the postal admins as they were to be used in promotion programs set out by the PDC and associated companies. The postal admins knew about the progressives and other varieties as per their contracts with the PDC.

The "errors" went a bit too far I agree but they were proven not to be illegally made nor sold at least under Clive's companies as genuine rare errors. This is shown in the article posted.


This is where the real conflict arose and does not just entail LOW issues. The names are withheld of these entities that used false ads as some still exist under new company names today. Some are very large dealers.

All the deterring comments on British Locals, validity, etc; does not pertain to this study as it is a simple study about the named issues and how many were made.

The article pertains to the legality of making the varieties which shows that they were made legally. Yes, to some it is unethical but then today many countries would have to be put under the same rules. They are not. Many countries would have to be delisted if this were the case. They will not be.

In the case of Tuvalu they apparently did not keep records of what they received. We have tried numerous times to get the info. There is no response except from the Finance manager of today which states they have no way of finding out. Is it by design? A piece of history that does not wish to be shown as they did make profits from the agreements.? In the the letter which changed the agreement in 1988 it states that 430,000 GBP was sent to them in profits for the previous year. This includes the production of varieties as per the reprint agreement. Perhaps one of you have the means of getting the information?

Scotland Yard does not keep court records.

Agreed that the evidence is limited but with the mass of invoices, print orders, process of printing documents describing right down to the reams of paper used, for many countries
we can get a quite accurate picture of what went on. Much taken right from the prosecutors own exhibits used in the trials. How much more proof is that? Did the prosecutors falsify the documents? No. They were using them against Clive and others to convict. There were 6 volumes of them! The massive quantity of evidence used in the trials to convict did not win the case. Why? Because nothing illegal was done. Thus to call Clive a "crook" would be considered slander and grounds for lawsuits. That would be the same as if I were to call you a crook or Glen. I do not.

I do not really care if Clive was "convicted" or not as that is not what I am interested in. Simply the interest is in what was made, how it was made, and wherever possible how much was made. Basically all this talk and playing on words is useless retoric and I do say designed to deter the thread. The project moves forward and all who have input as to quantities, what exists etc; are welcome to put it here.

As to value...some say none...some say some. A matchbook really has no value but to some it does. It is up to the individual to decide. LOW issues are listed. 1,000's of issues produced by the Format printers are listed. Many are with contraversy. Shall we delist Guyana? Shall we delist St. Vincent? Shall we delist the Falkland Islands? Shall we delist most African countries? Where would it end? All issued stamps printed by Format and many many issues were made when Clive was in charge. Shall we delist them all?

No YOU are saying - and offering zero evidence to support that statement, that there was no conviction recorded, despite the published article above in the world's leading stamp trade journal that says there was.

It is, and always has been a most conservative magazine, and is owned by Stanley Gibbons. The editor then, is the Editor now.

Clive did NOT challenge that statement in his lifetime AFAIK, and knowing him he'd have spent whatever it took, had that been wrong, and demanded a correction be run.

The published record clearly shows he was convicted of Contempt Of Court over these Leaders Of The World issues.

So the burden of proof clearly lies with YOU to publish a Police Report here showing a clean record criminal record for Feigenbaum on this matter.

Until you do, your words are just more unsubstantiated hot air, and have as much relevance as your nonsense claim that the Leaders Of The World issues were not printed in the millions.

True, the sentence here was for disobeying a court order rather than a specific charge, and thus handed down directly by the court rather than coming as a result of being found guilty by a jury. I suppose it's possible that technically the term is "held in" rather than "convicted of" contempt of court -- you'd need to check with a solicitor for the finer points of the law. But the practical effect is the same, it's still a criminal record.

It's likely that there's considerably more to the story than the Philatelic Exporter managed to find out (or at least dared to print) -- but court judgements of that kind are pretty much a matter of record, and I don't doubt that they got that bit right. The records would doubtless still be there, both in the court files and in the court reports in the non-philatelic press, but I'm afraid the onus is on you here if you want to make the inquiries to show they're not -- it's your contention, I don't see why anyone else should bother going to the time and expense of getting them.

If anyone is interested you can also search google news "Archives"

Although some of them are Pay per view , there are a few free ones archived there.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&g ... 5818775075

This has been a very interesting topic.

I feel very sorry for Tuvalu. I read that Stamp revenue was once a major source of income for them.

Following the LOW scandal and when collectors lost confidence in Tuvalu philately, the cut in revenue meant the country really was in dire straits.

Around that time they had to be bailed out by Australia, New Zealand and UK, and others, who all contributed to a trust fund. The interest from those contributions earns them an income today.

edit: adding link to newspaper report
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=13 ... amps&hl=en

Tuvalu may not have needed that help if their philatelic reputation wasn't ruined by the LOW issues.

(Just my opinion from reading a few articles, or course I may be totally off base and it's just a coincidence that the trust fund was set up around the same time as the stamp sales plummeted)

I might start collecting Tuvalu, to help support modern Tuvalu philately. When the islands go under water they may be no more Tuvalu at all.

Sorry to go off topic

edit: thankyou to mods for editing the post layout sorry, I will take time to add gaps and paragraphs in future much appreciated thankyou

_________________

Collecting - Stamps, poster stamps and covers that feature Kangaroos.
Wanted: Illustrated Tourist cover of "Waratah Park", Sydney, NSW. Australia

also mentioned in this book
Taking Responsibility, Personal Liability Under Environmental law. Stephen Trumans p40



http://books.google.com.au/books?id=69T ... 22&f=false

EDIT: just noticed that book has a Typo, it should be
Attorney General Tuvalu v Philatelic Distribution Corporation Limited [1990] 1 WLR 926
the "V" is in the wrong place.

_________________

Collecting - Stamps, poster stamps and covers that feature Kangaroos.
Wanted: Illustrated Tourist cover of "Waratah Park", Sydney, NSW. Australia

Thank you Skippy for coming up with more FACTS - that further confirms what has been posted before, but our non learned friend keeps disputing was the FACT.

To summarise - again - only the prison sentence was removed on appeal, as I kept assuring him was correct.

The Contempt Of Court conviction and fine for "GALILEO" Feigenbaum still remained.

China (P.R.C.) has waded into the international diplomatic and foreign assistance fields hugely in recent years. The fact that their government is sitting on by far the world's largest currency reserves is well-known, ie. it was published recently in the newspaper that for Q3 or Q4 2011, their reserves increased by an amount equal to the entire reserves held by Malaysia.

This slush fund is thrown around lavishly when it comes to smaller places like Tuvalu, be it to secure natural resources, or in that simmering, long-running spat that is the status of Taiwan (R.O.C.). I believe it was Kiribati that recognized Taiwan, and so a year or two ago, PRC came along and said "y'know, we're developing our space programme, and need to build a tracking station in the South Pacific. The project is worth $50million, and we were thinking of building it in your country, but there's just one little hang-up..." and poof, the island group switched its allegiance.

Developing countries are an 'easy mark' for people like CF, or IGPC, or Format. Dangle the prospect of money in the bank, with the added enticement that the country donating its name doesn't even really have to do anything, and its a hard proposition to resist.

Indeed, who would collect modern Tuvalu, or most of the Caribbean states, or a lot of other parts of the world. Pitcairn used to have a following, which has apparently declined, maybe people realized "wait a minute, why do 5 dozen people need so many stamps?"

_________________
Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

To try and prevent yet another round of applied pedantry from "The Researcher", I think the issue may lie around the use of the word "conviction" in this sense.

One is generally "found" to be in contempt of court, or "held" in contempt of court.

I think we can all agree that Feigenbaum was "found" / "held" in contempt of court and that is what the record will show.

That, to any sane person, should be the end of the debate on that particular point.

If the Researcher wants to continue to play these word games, I suggest he goes away and plays with himself.

He has been certainly been getting in lots of practice.

Indeed. Although to be fair to Feigenbaum (and The Researcher!), breach of a court order is a very different creature from proof of or even evidence of fraud, which he apparently wasn't ever convicted of, even if it was a letter-of-the-law thing.


I don't think it is, actually -- the case was in a UK court not a Tuvaluan one. Presumably contempt of court charges (and in this case appeal) are legally recorded as "Attorney General vs X" rather than "Rex vs X" as for an ordinary criminal charge?

I had missed this thread until today as I have no interest in "Leaders of the World" stamps. But it can be very interesting to read about other collectors' material and in particular any research into that material.

I have therefore just ploughed through six pages of what one contributor quite rightly called a "train wreck".

The thread wanders off into, among other minimally related topics, criminal records (or not), British local issues (or not) and has a very unhealthy level of gratuitous insult rather than reasoned argument from both sides.

I had to flip back to the first page to find what the research was supposed to be about. Because it is not stated very clearly.

I have in my time written several articles for research journals. The thing about research articles is that they are peer reviewed. You have to present your evidence or the articles don't get published.

Your evidence has to be attributable. The peer reviewers will ask you to justify your statements and to provide valid citations. You should present the other side of the argument in a fair manner and attempt to refute it.

There is only one piece of evidence presented by The Researcher. It is as valid in its presentation as the recent April 1st letter supposedly from Nicolas Sarkozy that was on Stampboards. I have no doubt, however, that there is a verifiable physical copy of The Researcher's evidence so will not challenge it as such.

Where is the other evidence?

The Researcher says:


Challenge what findings? A piece of paper that might or might not give either some or the whole of part of the story referring only to Tuvalu.

There is no other evidence. How can anyone offer proof or refutation of what are merely unsubstantiated claims?

Those claims might indeed be quite valid, but where is the proof?

Saying essentially that all will be revealed later is not proof. It's saying "watch this space".

Saying that your collaborators must remain anonymous but that you yourself have seen the evidence is not proof. It's hearsay.

Saying that there are more of you than there are of us is not proof. Might does not equal right.

What might well could have been perfectly valid research into printing quantities of these issues (whether for commercial gain or not) has been crippled by a lack of any willingness to follow the basic standards and methodology required for such research and to resort to insult if any doubt is expressed. Just because somebody publishes something themselves does not make it true.

_________________
You may not be interested in strategy, but strategy is interested in you

[/quote]

Sorry Mozzerb, I should have explained why I know it is a typo.

When you put that in google ie: "Attorney General Tuvalu v Philatelic Distribution Corporation Limited [1990] 1 WLR 926"

many more hits come up where the case has been cited in other rulings (the correct terminology I don't know, is it precident maybe? )

the two "bodies" are -
Attorney General for Tuvalu Government, and
Philatelic Distribution Co Ltd.

law gazette here >>
http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/contem ... c-distribu

The above is just for the contempt of court.
Fraud was a whole other case (or cases and appeals) which happened years earlier,

but I can't be bothered looking it up.

_________________

Collecting - Stamps, poster stamps and covers that feature Kangaroos.
Wanted: Illustrated Tourist cover of "Waratah Park", Sydney, NSW. Australia

Ok Sheriff you win.

This is what I am talking about as in proof which others did for you.

The word convicted is not used in any writings and as others agree the word is not convicted but held or found. The only point I was mad on.



This ties with the article stating

! think there is an error in the article which throws off things

Should be 3 March 1988. Agreed?

Also I do no see where ordering album pages for stamps would even fall into the category of breaching the order as they have nothing to do with the stamps.

Anyway enough on it back to the thread ok?

Next post on evidence showing printing practices.
Will try to show more evidence here which you all can then possibly be more assured that we have it. Problem is I cannot post 100 pages of documents here and that is why I say stay tuned to the site. Please be patient as I work the next reply...which...lol... will be a long one.

Just out of curiosity what does:



mean?

It could be taken as there was 239 previously to it making the numbers of the general stamps be in the millions.

Interesting snippet...,


The Montreal Gazette - Dec 14, 1985 p143

In 1981, revenue from sale of stamps
brought Tuvalu $2.1 million Australian
dollars.
In 1982, it was $1.1 million Australian dollars.
By 1983 It was down to $600,000 Australian (dollars)
There is no doubt that the decline was the reaction
of philatelists to the needless issues being poured out
each year.
A ray at the end of the tunnel?
Nope, just another train coming
- literally.

......
The Leaders of the World series is expected to
push philatelic revenue back up to $1 million
Australian this year

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BT ... elic&hl=en

_________________

Collecting - Stamps, poster stamps and covers that feature Kangaroos.
Wanted: Illustrated Tourist cover of "Waratah Park", Sydney, NSW. Australia

A million dollars revenue after costs in just 1 year for one small Island nation in physical stamps is a LOT OF STAMPS!

Lets say an average of 40c profit per stamp. That's 2.5 million stamps in one year. I'm being generous as it looks (on paper) that the stamps appeared expensive to produce.

The report was already rubbishing the issues in the mid 80's.


Tuvalu did produce some very nice sets of stamps prior to that with good profits and worthy of collecting. Apart from a sudden case of rampant greed, what on earth possesed them to sell out and totally stuff their first or second highest source of income? (They probably didn't sell out, someone else stuffed it for them).

$1,000,000 dollars spread amongst 10,000 people was a decent business for the Island.
I wonder how much they sell now?

_________________
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

Not much
I was reading a 2010 Tuvalu economic report and stamps don't even rate a mention anymore. It also mentioned the Tuvalu Philatelic Bureau was running at a loss and was being subsidised.
Didn't save link,
edit: found link, will add it to Tuvalu thread rather than here

edit: It was $100,000 from stamps in 2008

_________________

Collecting - Stamps, poster stamps and covers that feature Kangaroos.
Wanted: Illustrated Tourist cover of "Waratah Park", Sydney, NSW. Australia

I have only just noticed this thread.

As a matter of interest, Crown Agents and later Caphco used watermarked paper and this was held in a secure bond in each printers factory.

The required paper was issued from that bond and then all used paper was tallied to ensure that no sheets had gone missing.

As printers closed down, so the bonds were closed and whilst at one time there were bonds at Bradbury Wilkinson, Format, Harrisons and Son, House of Questa, Waddingtons and Walsall, the number of bonds (or offices, most of which were locked and only opened by a member of Crown Agents or Caphco staff when visiting) this number reduced considerably.

So, the much-vaunted "Office" is almost certainly no more than one of these paper stores:

Sooner or later the thickest head accept the FACTS.

You are almost there.

Repeat after me, what you have already been advised ten times on this thread -

"CLIVE FEIGENBAUM WAS FOUND GUILTY BY A BRITISH JUDGE OF CONTEMPT OF COURT, AND WAS FINED, AND HAD A LIFETIME CRIMINAL RECORD AS A RESULT."

Accept reality, and you can then move on to your fuzzy invoices, which of course have zero to do with changing that reality.

Your dogged and inexplicable refusal to accept the most basic and clear cut FACTS above makes it difficult for others to accept one single word of whatever else you post - do understand that.

It is like arguing with a Morman about Religion - a wasted exercise generally.

But entertaining at times.

Move on with the subject of the thread or don't. I do not care anymore because it cannot stop the project which more and more will be all over the internet. It will be there every time you google anything about stamps that were made by Format. It will be there pretty much every time you google anything about stamps. You cannot stop it with big letters in a forum. You cannot stop it with any laws as there is nothing in it that anyone can sue over. You cannot stop it.

So.....what will it be.......your move.

Kevinm that is the internal code for the sheet being reprinted.

The diagram of the printing company is only partial. Less than half of what is the full diagram. The point of showing it was this statement made by you know who.


There are no dimensions but judging from the size of the company the office is pretty good size....about double of everyone elses. I doubt that it was packed with reams of watermarked paper. Ever been in a printing company? Reams are big!

Kevin note the St. Lucia cars one. Reprint Sheet 88. It is the 2nd series cars. Older set. The sheet has all 4 values on one sheet. There are a lot of press sheets that make up the LOW trains/cars series. Most have 4 values but there are some with only 2 values and some with 3 values and a blank pane.

Forget to take your tablets today?

You are delusional.

Luckily googling absolutely anything on stamps takes one to stampboards. No link provided to your ramblings whatever - thank goodness.

And luckily for anyone interested (luckily for philately, almost no-one) they'll also be directed right here, when snooping around for "Leaders Of The World" real information.

And most often, on most searches, direct readers to the real facts behind the LOW fiasco -

http://www.tuvaluislands.com/stamps/LOW_story.htm

"TUVALU AND THE LEADERS OF THE WORLD – A PHILATELIC SCANDAL"

That detailed report comes direct from Tuvalu - not Hooterville USA.

Thank goodness for google.

Google is an excellent way of locating sites, but you still have to actually read what they say. That (outline, not all that detailed) report doesn't come direct from Tuvalu, it comes direct from Canada -- it's the site of a private citizen with a Tuvaluan wife.

It's certainly not an official Tuvalu Government site, which is presumably why it's quoting the Philatelic Exporter on the subject of the stamp scandals rather than Government papers -- something which seemed odd enough for me to take a closer look.

Oh hell, I'll just follow the house style and make a big quote of what they say (I can't be bothered to add the big capitals and colour coding):

For the record, I voted undecided, & don't want to know.

Like most people, I don't care.

They may be pretty, they may be well produced & a handful may have been genuinely used for postage; but they don't fall within my definition of postage stamps.

Regards,

_________________
mobbor

Typing specific searches in google such as "Tuvalu stamps Leaders of the World" does bring up several results on page 1 to "golowestamps.com", but also to Brian Cannon's tuvaluislands.com site, and also other work authored by him, such as a 7-page PDF article outlining the "scandal" and trial et al,

http://www.freewebs.com/stvincentstamps/Format%20International%20Security%20Printer%20article%20re%20Tuvalu%20et%20al.pdf

There may be only 56,000 'normal' sets produced; but there could be "only" 10% of that number produced and there would probably be ample stock to go around, and the material wouldn't be worth more than 10 bucks a set to thematic collectors.

_________________
Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

He's from Tuvancouverlu

What I find suspect in the evidence (Exhibit 42), the last page of the letter at point 4 where it states that the normal PDC Allowance should be provided and invoiced seperately. This doesn't include the remainders that are to be sent to the same adddress as PDC.

Based on the letter 61,565 stamps were ordered, the last document shows that 81,565 were printed. This is roughly 32% more than ordered. For the souvenir sheets 6,565 were ordered but 17,565 were printed. This is an overage of over 200%. I can easily see that there are millions of these stamps based on this small sample.

_________________
Alyn Lunt
http://alynlunt.com/stamps - http://phabphilately.blogspot.com - member of the: RPSC, BNAPS, ISWSC, ATA

alyn good point on the accounting practices. But then I am not really into all the details of accounting practices.
My take is that all PDC allotments were invoiced separately as copies of the invoices go to where the stamps go. Like packing slips. I don't know if Format ever got "audited" but do have a couple sale ledger balance sheets showing sales to all kinds of different countries and including Crown Agents, PDC and even IGPC.

alyn please reread the documents. The totals include all the specimen overprinted, imperforates, progressives, and errors. It is the only printing of the Tourism issue for St. Vincent. There was not a reprinting. Note the dates. Format was close to bankruptsy. This is one of the last sets they made for St. Vincent.

Agreed that the Tuvalu article was not written using official government papers. It is compiled as it states in the beginning. Uses various articles and excerpts of which much is hearsay including testimonial by key witnesses. Suspicions about it started a long time ago and thus research back to it's origins started.

Obviously created after the trial. Obviously created by parties favoring the losing side of the trials. It is their right to post as they see it. Free speech. Clive was "found guilty" of contempt which is really a trivial thing. Yet it is made a big thing because it is the only thing they could get him for. And so he turned his head when they printed some more Tuvalu stamps....

So what? Thousands of big boys do it every day. Some get caught. Most do not. Put your hands to close to the fire they can get burned.

The entities involved were trying anything and everything to get him for a long time. Some were fired by him. Some were "taken over" by him. Some just plain did not like him for whatever reason personal or whatever.

Some wanted to "get rid" of the competition for their own personal gains. Whatever the reasons our research is in quantities produced and what exists not just in the trains and cars but of all issues from many countries. The LOW Cars/trains series is only a small piece of the research.

What will happen with Diana issues? What will happen with Halley's Comet issues? What will happen with Manned Flight issues? On and on. Will there be all this about Clive on each and every one of those issues? Guess you who are selling them better stop.
Clive was in charge so they are no good

Format produced countless issues during Clive's ownership. And countless issues before he took over ownership. Imperforates, specimen overprinted, errors and such were there before and during his time.

I have full uncut press sheets of progressives from Sharjah produced by Format. so is it Clive's fault that I have them? I don't think so.

So point being again it is about quantities produced and what exists.

Anybody have evidence of the made for collector errors for trains and cars for St. Vincent? The page is under construction and the data we have and find is being used.
The "errors" are inconclusive though as many were printed but much that was printed was destroyed so that only one error exists in a series..

This can be missing color, inverted specimen overprints, misperfed, etc;.
Anyone that can show images of such and if it is new info we do not have...we can add it to the page.

This is only for St. Vincent at present time. Not the dependencies.

Also so far no St. Lucia LOW trains/cars "errors" seem to exist. Are we wrong?

In the end of the day, I think it us up to collectors if they wish to collect materials or not... So i don't see a point of the entire thread and discussion that is dragging on...

I know that the totals include all the "varieties", the problem is that these were not ordered, the document states that 61,565 stamps were to be sent to the PMG of St. Vincent. Even including trials and or proofs, there should have been no more than 2 to 3% more being printed for quality control/approval purposes. This reeks of philatelic manipulation. How is there a missing colour error when it was printed as such?

The terminology suggests that there were far more than required. with 70,000 mint perf sets, this was an actual printing of 280,000 individual stamps (4 values x 70,000 sets). This still does not address the 32% increase in production for the stamps (proofs, errors, etc...) alone.

If this is the norm, then we could easily imagine that 32% more of every order placed by PDC was produced. So for every 1,000 stamps ordered we get an extra 300. With souvenir sheets it increases by 200% so 3000 souvenir sheets for every 1,000 ordered.

based on the letter of 21 January 1988 the excess printing would be considered remainders and would be shipped to Chandlers Ford. This does not include in my reading anything that was to be produced for PDC alone.

_________________
Alyn Lunt
http://alynlunt.com/stamps - http://phabphilately.blogspot.com - member of the: RPSC, BNAPS, ISWSC, ATA

Hi alyn

ok as I stated some time ago the PDC allotment was approx 2/3rds more than the order.

In this case 60,000 normal sets and 5,000 SS's went to St. Vincent
10,000 normal sets and 5,000 SS's went to PDC.

5,000 sets of specimen overprinted sets were produced of which 4,000 sets were perforated and 1,000 sets imperforate.

2,000 sets (perfed) to St. Vincent 3,000 sets (2kperfed, 1k imperf) to PDC

4,000 SS's specimen overprinted.

2k perfed to St. Vincent and 1k perfed and 1k imperf to the PDC

All the normal imperfs (sets and SS's) and the progressives and "errors" went to the PDC
for promotional programs.

The design in numbers chosen is according to interest and popularity of the subject of the stamps. In this set the SS depicts windsurfers thus a more popular topic than the single stamps depict (scuba diver etc;). This is why the lower percentage of the sets versus the 100% count on the souvenir sheets.

Looking at the numbers of the singles sets the PDC received was 1/6th of the quantity ordered. Way lower than 2/3rds. See the quantities vary widely mainly depending on popularity of the subject.

The PDC allotments are always on top of the original orders. They are in the contracts.
"At their discretion".

You see it was also the PDC's business to promote sales for other countries. If only the country had the stamps to sell how would all the other collectors in the world get them? Many countries collectors do not even know exist. They reach out through the PDC's resources to these collectors. How could this be if the PDC did not have an allotment? Many countries you cannot even get a hold of their agencies today. Many do not provide new issue services.

The "errors" were made as a novelty item and for promoting the issues. Not meant to be claimed as genuine errors that slipped through the cracks. As was stated in the trials certain dealers "claimed" this.

Come on, how is it possible for the whole tennis ball to be missing without creating a plate without it on it? Any collector would question that!

Inverted frames for cheap? The whole set? Obviously made on purpose. Again...only certain dealers claimed they were genuine even as far as to go making certificates of authenticity for them. Then asking huge amounts. Some are still doing it today. Check it out.

Missing colors? for cheap? Denominations? For cheap? The PDC outlets would have been asking 1,000's for them if trying to sell as authentic errors. Look at the old catalogs for them. 10-30 GBP is not a lot in comparison to genuine error prices which are 100's if not 1,000's.

alyn the printers notes and the print order above tell the exact numbers produced. Nothing more. St. Vincent on one side. PDC on the other. Invoices for the St. Vincent side are in the exhibit. I just didn't post them here. Invoice for PDC is not but it would be the same as the exhibit 50 ones showing all the varieties and quantities sent which would concur with the documents shown.

Nothing hidden. Costs are standard. Standard printing for progressives 3,000. In early 80's was 2,000. Standard printing for specimen overprints usually 2-3k including 1k imperforate. St. V just wanted more for this set for whatever reason. Therefore 5k total printed.

There are a couple issues where the progressives were reprinted also...but only a couple. Here is a clue.......Diana.

But that is another subject.
On with the Train wreck.

So after 10 posts above DENYING Feigenbaum has a Criminal Record, for Contempt Of Court you now concede, at last, this is the case. As all others have know for a week.

But openly defying a Court order from a Judge in a Superior Court is "a trivial thing" to you?????

Do you realise how absurd that makes all your other statements?

Imputing the balanced 'Exporter' reports of the trial are all biased is ditto. Exactly WHAT part of the following report is untrue please?

It was all written way before Feigenbaum passed and if a word of it were untrue the authors WOULD have been sued I'd suggest.

And then go on for a page regaling us with YOUR spin on the accounting practices you claim to know nothing about, desperately trying to make the figures fit your version of events.

This is like a Beavis and Butthead script.

Beavis and Butthead aren't that bad.

Sheriff
IGNORED

Eric Casagrande
IGNORED

I think it's time that this thread should be locked (as others have already said previously here).


Research on "Leaders of the World" Cars & Train Stamp Issues
IGNORED

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My wantlist for Malta Revenues

Shows your twisting of words again as accounting practices which pertain to the finances is completely different than accounting of the quantities issued. A desparate ploy made and that is why it is being ignored.

Reasonable people can see right through all these attempts to defer the thread.
Intelligent people will see that perhaps the "expert" opinions on much in this forum may not be so expert as once thought.

Perhaps you should delete the whole thread as these people will see the truth in the childish way it has been overrun with troll tactics. I think we may create a page showing this and send it to #1 on google thus "deferring" them from this forum in general.

Let's see using multiple user names.
Using gigantic letters.
Shouting all the time.
Bringing in all sorts of subjects not pertaining to the thread.

Umhmm. Perfect signature of TROLLS
And to think it is the ones running the forum themselves. Very sad

We tried to show you new information never before seen but you refuse to accept whether it be because of personal bias or belief. You mentioned arguing with a mormon? Look at yourself in a mirror.

You use your little article like a page from the bible. Look in the mirror.

You pick out little lines and make big things and twist them. Look in the mirror.

The thread proves many things. It now also proves the forum is rigged. Better delete it.
Oh....but it is already saved...in a special folder.

So.....lock it....delete it....whatever you want. It is YOUR forum ...not mine.
I will ignore anything not pertaining to the subject of the thread and your last comments are just that.....nothing to do with the subject of the thread. Only personal attacks.
How childish.

The project moves on....no matter what you say or do here.

The only "twisting of words" I have seen on this thread is your repeated obfuscation over the Feigenbaum contempt issue. Do NOT make these accusations.


As a "true" Researcher, perhaps you'd be kind enough to give a precis of the "Project" - its aims and objectives; the method; the sources you intend to use and so on. That is the minimum expected from even a small-town college, let alone the world-altering research you claim to be involved in. Let's see the colour of your money, otherwise the calls to lock this thread are more likely to be heeded

alyn is and was talking about the financial end. Audits etc;. I am talking about the quantities issued. Two completely different things Gavin...thus my counter accusation.

Your request to write out a 10 page book report on everything to do with the project on this "forum" will not happen as it has never happened on any other subject brought forth in this forum. I do not have time to waste on it as it only will be twisted and ridiculed by biased moderators under a biased leader.

In short the aim of the project is to show what was printed and what was saved. Showing evidence to back it wherever possible. You know and I know that some evidence will never be found but we have a lot more evidence than any of you as to what WAS printed.

The method is to utilize all surviving documents including exhibits by the court prosecutors, printing records saved by the owner of the printing company, and materials that are being sold and have been sold all over the world.

Some answers are being witheld by certain entities for fear of devaluing their stock which in most cases it appears that already happened many years ago.

Certain articles will not be used as they are biased and play toward proving in favor of the writer. Ever watch FOX NEWS? Same scenario.

Here are examples of twists and conjecture and bias from the "holy article".


They most certainly did know. They made huge profits from it. Building base for conjecture by the writer.


Included imperfs, specimens and progressives for many sets not just LOW issues.
They are not "flawed". Note the word "alleged". Articles were written knowing Clive may come down on them like a ton of bricks so words like these are used so as not to be contested.


including the right to reprint the stamps as the reprint agreement is the main reason they lost the trials.


Worded like this is something new. Format produced all of their stamps before this.
Here is a tidbit....Questa.



Not because of advertisement. It was because a disgruntled ex-employee (Laagerwood) started writing letters to the Tuvalu government about it. We have copies of the letters.
Dated February 1988. Very bad.

Conjecture on the writers part.


They knew exactly what they were printing except we will give you the "errors". That is still up for debate though but does not pertain to this thread.


The wording "flawed" over and over. "flawed" including imperfs and specimens which are the majority of the 14,000 ordered. since when is an imperforate stamp or Specimen overprinted stamp considered "flawed"? Guess everyone who owns any have "flawed" stamps then. Better consider them all junk.

The use of the word is biased and meant to demean. Inclusion of the imperfs etc; used to exaggerate the amounts.


Complete conjecture and manipulation of words. They found some newly printed.....yes....but at the time they were still printing Tuvalu stamps under contract. The majority were taken out of the archive along with every progressive, specimen overprinted and imperforate plus much more for St. Vincent, St. Lucia, Nevis and so forth.

Read the line "as well as other material" Inclusion used....biased and worded to minimize inclusion of everything they took.


"where Detective Constable Faulds saw a substantial quantity of Tuvalu stamps which had just been printed."
Conjecture and manipulation by the writer. Of course there were Tuvalu stamps that were just printed. Probably the Red Cross issue or the Voyages of Captain Cook issues...duhhhhh.


The reason Clive got fined. He did not stop the employee. Oooops



Your big letters don't make it any bigger of a crime. As it is stated in the book Taking Responsibility, Personal Liability Under Environmental law. Stephen Trumans p40
"If he fails in this duty he will be punished for contempt of court notwithstanding that he had not actively participated in the breach"

You act as if the guy murdered somebody. So self righteous.

These points are shown to show you some of the twisting and bias of the articles used in the "holy article". I really do not care about it...it is not about the thread. But you continually put it in the thread and you personally continue to twist it and word it in your biased ways for whatever reason...personal or otherwise. Name calling and making personal attacks continually is childish and tyrannical only because this is your forum. If you did this in another persons forum I am sure your comments would be deleted and probably you would be kicked out by now for trolling a thread.

Now....delete it....lock it.....or move on with what the thread is about.
It is not about Clive. But you cannot get off of it can you? I think his ghost haunts you.

Aw, come on, play fair. I've just laid in a fresh supply of popcorn.

How can you claim to be doing valid research when you will not take views which contradict yours into account?

It is your task to present your views with the evidence to back them. It is also your task to present evidence which convincingly contradicts the opposing points of view.

Ignoring the opposing points of view effectively lessens your claims as the doubts will always be raised - and you have done nothing whatsoever to countermand those doubts except to say that you are ignoring them because they are "biased".

"Biased" here means that they do not agree with your point of view. You are therefore equally as biased in respect of those opposing views.

Research which is not conducted properly by positing a hypothesis, presenting the evidence which supports that hypothesis and countermanding the evidence which does not support that hypothesis is worthless.

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You may not be interested in strategy, but strategy is interested in you

Because the views in this article are about a trial to convict for fraud and was lost.

It is not about the subject of the thread. We know millions of stamps were made as a whole. Cheeezzz you can take any section out of any standard catalog and say the same thing. The point is millions of a single stamp or a single set of stamps was not made and any person can see that.

Repeatedly posting pieces of this article and yelling Clive this and Clive that is not a view about the subject of the thread at all!

Why should I reply to these type of comments when they have nothing to do with it?

Read the article 100 times then maybe you will get some kind of inkling of what I am talking about. Why was it posted originally? The articles were already posted in various newspapers and stamp mags. When was it posted. Where was it posted. And here you got me commenting on something that does not have to do with the thread again.

Invoices and documents are all that can be used as evidence. Where are your invoices and documents showing millions were made? So far only words. So far only an article which stares you straight in the face telling you millions were made but not telling you millions of what?

Can't you see it? Cheeezzz!

Hypothesis:
Millions of a single stamp or set of stamps was not made by the Format Printers.

Evidence:
Invoices and documents.

Evidence not supporting:
This article and a bunch of words in big letters and massive replies not pertaining to the hypothesis and no documents.

Is that cut and dried enough for you?

OK. So based on those documents what are your best estimates for the number of each "complete" stamp and each variety printed? (Break it down in whatever way you consider appropriate -- by stamp, by pair, by set, whatever.)

At the moment it's not clear what you're talking about -- you're just stating that they show something, not actually stating specifically what that something is.

Some people have much too much spare time....

I have just hit on 6 pages of verbal Diarrhoea calling itself " RESEARCH" about some pathetic wallpaper, produced in dubious circumstances by some shady printers.
Stuff that most of us dismiss as philatelic trash and which no amount of ill spelled puff by a "Researcher" will ever elevate above junk status.

He asks
"Read the article 100 times then maybe you will get some kind of inkling of what I am talking about. Why was it posted originally?"

Now that is a good question ! or rather two questions!

1 Why was it posted originally ? Why indeed?
2 Who would want to read his rubbish 100 times -------------or even more than once? I tried reading it and haven't a clue what he wants to " research"

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whatever it is -------it's better than a poke in eye with a wet umbrella !

Leave the bloke alone!!!!

I got a S@$%tload of this stuff and I'am hoping that it will go up price....

It is quite simple Mozzerb.

The invoices show the reprinting of specific uncut press sheets.
Each uncut press sheet has a number and usually contains 4 values of one of the series.

The numbers on the invoices are exact numbers of what was reprinted
21,000 of each value listed in normal state.
5,000 of each value listed in imperforate state
and so on.

Reprinting was only once.

You add these to original printing orders and you come up with close to
finite numbers of what was printed.

Please notice no more progressives were made. The presentation folder program
did not sell well thus there was no need for more to be printed. Supply and demand.

There was no demand thus no need to supply. They had already made 3,000 sets.
Standard printing practice for all issues not just LOW ones.
The 250 limited edition folders were just that. Yes they had more sets of progressives but they were not meant to use in the presentation folders as that would be fraud.

We do not have the original print orders as many were before Clive took over the company and were probably shredded. We are still searching.

We can still base quantities on more recent orders for newer sets other than the trains/cars by the various countries. As stated on the website we are estimating a high number to compensate for the "good overs" and such.

Look Tuvalu...St. Lucia....St. Vincent never ordered millions. How could they afford to pay for them? PDC would not have millions of a single value or set made on the "hope" that they would sell.

For St. Lucia for instance we have based the number of normal sets at 75,000 set.
That is a lot of sets! Based on estimated original orders of:
21,000 sets ordered by St. Lucia +
14,000 sets made for PDC outlets +
21,000 reprint sets for the PDC outlets +
the "good overs" estimating a high number of 19,000 sets =
75,000 sets.

Tuvalu is less because they are smaller and less collectible. And as letters stated because SG and other catalogs were not listing them with numbers they were trying to cut down production of the island stamps at that time. Why would they produce a million sets for a country that was not selling? Think that letter made Tuvalu mad. Meant they were not getting as much money from them.

Most of the Specimen overprinted stamps out on the market are from the reprinting. A good example is the 1986 Royal wedding issues. There are two types of overprint. One is in heavy silver italics whereas the other is smaller silver block letters. Many issues are this way. We only state numbers of the reprints. The originals were produced in lower numbers and usually 565 were sent to the U.P.U.

We do not believe the imperforates were produced in the original printings but some may have been.

We do not believe the "made for collector errors" were made until the reprinting. Yes some "errors" existed but the mass production did not start until after the reprint agreement was made. It would have been fraud!

So I am just stating that the thread is quite simple. We just wanted people to know that we are beginning to present evidence of what really was printed. We were hoping for people to come in with more evidence supporting or changing the evidence.

If documents surfaced proving numerous reprints were done we would use them!
If huge counts of the issues proved more were printed we could use it! This would entail witnessed counts and pictures showing them.

I am not your enemy nor do I say I am biased except for the evidence.
Look....I have pages as I stated earlier showing bad things like the inverted Royal Ruby Wedding issues...The Elvis and Michael Jackson variants...on and on. Why can't you see I am neutral? Good or bad I will post it. Makes me mad also to see overinflated pricing for things that should be sold cheap.

I can see Glen's side totally. but why can't you see at least a little of mine? Some people here have.

Why not all work together to uncover the truth. Put aside feelings about the owner and such and dig into what exists. The stamps are everywhere. Why not get some stats on them since the issuing countries seem not to care.

Since some here seem to be in higher places why can't they use their resources to get to the bottom of it? Perhaps you have inside contacts with the countries in question? Perhaps you have examples of errors produced that are not logged or known. Instead of letting some shady dealer sell them to some unsuspecting collector for a huge sum wouldn't it at least be nice to have a source that they could look at to make decisions with before losing their money? The internet? A page on the issue in question?

I say the issues have been grossly undervalued in the sense that Catalog values are being ignored. No they are not worth a bunch but they are worth what the catalogs state.
50c is not the catalog price at $3.00. The last issues of LOW cars/trains were only printed once. The company went bankrupt and stopped printing them. Some are getting difficult to find and the catalogs are reflecting that pricing them at $8.00+. Should they still be sold for 50c?

It is fun for me to try to figure out. It could be fun for all if we all worked together instead of butting heads. That is getting us nowhere and thus...yes...hehe...causing this train to wreck.