Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

Hi,

Most of us, I believe build one country collections, either in the traditional or postal history classifications mainly and there are of course postal stationery, aerophilately, etc.

I have been drawn to censored covers recently and I find them pretty intriguing and exciting in its own way.

Being new in this area, I would like to invite a discussion on how do you collect censored covers? What I mean is how do you develop a theme - by country? mixed censorship? military? POW? etc.

For instance, the prospect of finding all the censor nos. of a type sound possibly do-able but I am not sure what purpose it would serve other than personal satisfaction.

So, any comments from censor collectors are much appreciated to enlighten the uninitiated like me, in this area.

Note : Since collecting censor covers is not really beginners' topic, I have chosen to post this thread here rather than the beginners' questions forum.

Hi Enoch.

I will post again tomorrow re censor covers,.
I have been collecting for many years,and can help you in getting started I am sure.

Ron.

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

Hi Again.

Censored covers hold a fasination for me too.and I started collecting them about 25 years ago,
anything that came my way with a censor label attached,was stashed away.until I had enough covers with various different labels to start to sort them out,

I have started with Australia first as they were the "Home" country and I had access to more of them plus access to information,I.E.some specalist groups.I joined the The Forces Postal History Soc,and poured through Stamp Magazines,snipping out any related information.then when I thought I had enough information I started to pull together what I had,

Australia For example started with just a plain label.OPENED BY CENSOR in red at the begining of the War,
then added a series of Dots under the wording ,,,then even later changed the Dots to Numbers,these dots and Numbers,relate to which State the Envelope was opened in,so by collecting the plain labels ,Dots ,Numbers I was able to amass a visual history of part of the censorship of the WW11 material of Australia.

and these Numbers by the way still are used today in relation to our current Post Codes.

so to start you off,I would suggest.

1, join a specialist Group.

2, collect EVERYTHING that comes your way,

3,cut and paste anything at all from magazines,internet etc,

4,collect the world to start with,as many covers cross many borders.

5.Generally place under country ,,,,(but refer to number 4.)

6.remember that many covers will have many other markings on them,other than censors,then you have to decide which collection to place them in.

7. I collect only WW11 censored covers,as these are more abundant,than WW1,and less expensive.

so I hope these few basic pointers are of some help.I shall try to scan the Australian lot asap.time is the enemy.

Ron.

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

A while ago I purchased a WWII censored cover from Australia to USA (November 1941, just before the war erupted in the Pacific).

Purchased it because it has the usual censor marks and had a pair of Penny Halfpenny Brown GVI paying the postage.

The stamps turn out to be the perf 15, issued in that month and discontinued less than a month later. This was due to imposition of halfpenny War Tax on 10th December and change in colour of stamp to green.

So, I ended up with a censored cover that has a stamp only current for around a month with the correct usage period postmark.

I must admit though, I really only dabble in censored covers. Really must think about getting more into them.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Any pictures, please???

_________________
Collecting Tasman Empire Airways Limited

I need to get my scanner working over the weekend. Will post a scan then.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

showing pages 1 -- 15 of a display I did a Number of years ago
.
it starts with No numbers.then on to the Dots, and finishes with the printed Numbers. there are a few odd bits on some of the covers,but this display was only concerned with the censor labels.
I have since found a few more covers and this display WILL be updated very soon.

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

Mr Boggler,

Was this infomation available in any books, or did you work all this out from your collected covers? Looking forward to the updates!

Cheers,

Ewen

_________________
Collecting Tasman Empire Airways Limited

A little bit of both.
some info was in the News letters from Societies that I belonged to.and a bit from me. I think by now the lists would be updated,as this display was done at least 20 years ago.and is DUE to be redone.

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

Fantastic info MrBoggler !!

I have seen a few censor covers in the boxes here, I want to find them now and check out the dots

Skippy

Just make sure you don,t end up Dotty like me.

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

Just shows how much we don,t know,

after looking at these scans I have just discovered a mark I did not know I had,

its on the Bottom of the 2 covers from Perth,with the number 5 censor labels,
It shows a rectangular boxed censor mark in violet with a passed by censor 1 but the amazing thing is the 5 dots down each side,I had never noticed these before.and a quick check through some others I have, did not reveal any others,
so to my knowledge I have not seen this type before,

anyone else.

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

All right, all right, I wiull join on to this thread,.
Does this mean that all the censor covers I have been purchasing from you, come from your discard bin?
Regards and will call in Monday fior coffee

Of Course.

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

Oh, !(at)#$%^&*()_+&*()_

WOW - like many I had also picked up the occassional censor cover, but only for the stamp attached - I had not realised the variety of the censor labels available. Looks like I will have to go through the covers I have also. (BTW - love the Ram surcharge overprint on cover - not very common at all.)

Are these censor covers? The reverse side of the tape (on back) has the words 'EXAMINED BY'.

Yes, but by the USA censors

Were they afraid that state secrets being smuggled INTO the US? OR was it common practice to examine items which were not checked at the point of departure?

All of the above, I have censor covers checked by the sending nation, and then again in the USA, others checked on entering the USA, and even one from Puerto Rica (USA) to the mainland that has been censored. The interesting thing is, if they found something, what happened next, without computers and only scissors or black pens etc? Other covers had to indicate that the letter was in a foreign language, and was sent on to be read by persons who understood that language. Others were mailed before hostilities, but arrived after war declared etc

Not as clearcut as we think today.
I have covers used from Scotland to England,.Australia,-New Zealand, Ireland to Australia, Australia-Australia.all have been censored.
in Fact a Humungas amount of mail was subject to censorship.
remember it was a World War,and so many countries had residents from overseas living in them.and who really knew where these peoples sympathies lay
think about this,,, a Aircraft carrying mail from Australia to The USA,that may have been shot down.and the mail could have ended up in enemy hands,
make do doubt about it the Enemy WOULD have salvaged some bits and pieces of Info from any mail salvaged,and used it to their own benifit.
I have an old Postcard somewhere which I shall try to find,but it shows, one of the USA censor rooms.and there are 100,s of people sitting there reading other peoples mail.

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

In fact, the British used this to advantage against the Germans. Read the story 'The man who never was' to see the details but, briefly, the British put a body 9dressed as a British oficer) into the water off Spain. The body had a briecase attached and in the briecase were plans or teh supposed invasion of the Pas De Calais.

The Spanish passed on the papers to the Germans, who believed the oficer had been in a shot down plane. The ruse fitted with German (speciically Hitler's) ideas of where the invasion would come and was believed.

The point is that, from memory, the body also had at least one letter on it that was designed to add to authenticity of the ruse.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Thanks for the comments and fot sharing the collection.

Now I know why I have not seen many of such covers in ebay or dealers' stock!

The area I am interested in, British Asia has been well-documented by the CCSG, which I also recently joined. Hence, other than looking out for unrecorded marks, tapes and censor numbers, I was wondering if there are any other structured approach to collecting them.

For eg Malaya was much more manageable with only 100+ censor nos for either Penang or Singapore and I presume that tracking down each number is do-able.

However, the middle east seems mosre interesting and shrouded in mystery still. There's plenty of scope there for new discovery, I think.

I started collecting POW mail about a year and a half ago, which is but a tiny subset of the censored mail collecting area.

At first, I did not limit myself to any area or conflict. I was soon overwhelmed with the vastness of it all, and quickly determined if I stayed on that course, I would wind up with hundreds, then thousands of items, each interesting in their own right, but totally disorganized and not telling a story nor having any hope of contibuting to philatelic knowledge. There was no way I would ever have the funds or the time to do such a broad collection justice. (And I still collect other stuff, too!).

My solution was to concentrate on one area where I would invest most of my POW collecting dollars - POW's in Canada during WWII - with the hope of putting something significant together over time.

But I still have the collector disease, so I still collect pieces from other areas, trying to get a small number from every area and every conflict just for my own interest, education and fun - without investing any (for me) serious money.

Another angle to consider when looking at censored covers is that of "undercover address mail". The most famous of which is probably P.O. Box 506 in Lisbon, Portugal. However, there were hundreds of undercover addresses during WWII. The Thomas Cook organization ran some of these operations on behalf of various governments. I recently saw a large part of the "undercover address mail" collection of one of my clients -- it is amazing how much we don't know about such operations (and about which current government archives seem to contain no records). It takes some sleuthing, but one can still find previously unknown addresses. Not too long ago I found a CALIFORNIA USA undercover address used on a letter to Norway, but with Canadian censorship (it had been sent on to Canada).

One of the types of "undercover address mail" has a tell-tale sign that will usually puzzle the owner: A cover from country X to county Y, but with the censor marks of country Z -- that showed no reason for transiting country Z. For example, from Norway to a P.O. Box in New York USA, but with CANADIAN censorship. (That is a US$150-250 cover!)

["Undercover address mail" systems were designed to transmit mail across enemy lines, via neutral countries. The mail was then forwarded to the destination.]

There is a terrific little book listing the known addresses: "Undercover Addresses of World War II" by Charles Entwistle: Chavril Press (that's him), Bloomfield, Perth Road, Aberneth, Perth, Scotland UK PH2 9LW. [no email address given.] Be sure you have/get the THIRD EDITION.

Some of these covers, when properly identified, can be quite valuable -- hundreds of US$ sometimes. The value of just one cover will pay for the book.

Jay

_________________
Visit www.JaySmith.com for the best in all aspects of SCANDINAVIAN philately, as well as U.S. and WORLDWIDE stamps, collections, lots, etc. There are always interesting Specials available.

_________________
If it erupts, don't blame me!!

I have a couple of "Thomas Cook" covers and shall scan them when back in Shop.Thursday.

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

Hi

let me put in my input on censor covers. I am an Indian censor collector who is a member of Civil censor Study group based in UK/ USA and in my opinion this is how you generally go about collecting censor covers.

1. Decide which country(Countries, may be) you would like to collect. You will find that it is easier to start with your own country as you may have accumulated enough of them already.
2. Decide whether You wanted to do civil or military censorship
3. Decide whether you want to do WWI or WWII or the entire period including the in between wars and pre world wars. (The last one is possible if you are going for military censorship and if regiments from your country had been involved in overseas campaigns)
4. Decide whether you want to do POW related to your area of interest to be included

Once you have decided it will be easy to get specialised hand books on censorship of your area of interest and take it from there.

You may also join related censor study groups. For instance The Military censor groups based in UK and USA are their for military mails.

If you want to ask further questions on this generally I would be only to glad to answer. I may not be able to answer Australia specific questions

_________________
Call me "Viswa" please.

Hi Viswa,

Thanks for the input.

I have decided to collect POW and censorship in Malaya. What are some possible approach to develop a theme?

Once more, really appreciate your guidance here.

Hi Enoch



For POW in Malaya WWI

There were few Germans imprisoned in Singapore and there have been mails to and from them. Apart from that I doubt whether you will find any other POW material.

For POW in Malaya WWII

Please google David Tett . He has written couple of volumes on POW Malaya . My only advice is ,if you decide to buy the volumes ask him to send it by registered mail. I am still waiting to receive my copy which he sent by sea mail a couple of years ago. It is there in some catamaran , I guess.

Civil censorship

For Malaya WWI , there have been articles written by Graham Mark in Malaya Study Group / CCSG and there have been updates of them over the past two years.

For Malaya WWII, You need to buy K.W. Morenweiser's British Asia published by CCSG.

But Malayan censorship is not very complicated. During both wars , there were only two censor stations in function. Penang and Singapore. It is easy to complete or to achieve a level of completion.

For Military censorship

You need various reference books , as there were British, Indian, Australian and Malayan army units in operation during WWII . I am not certain whether there were any New Zealand troops as well. Not my area of specialisation. But I can tell you about Indian army units in Malaya.

Hope this starts you off.

_________________
Call me "Viswa" please.

Hi
I have found this thread very interesting and educational - especially the posting explaining how the dots show where Australian covers were censored.

The following cover is from New Zealand to UK and was not opened in NZ, but was opened by the censor in the UK. It is registered and is franked with 6/3 rate from NZ to UK plus 4d registration fee. Can anyone please tell me the significance of the P.C. 90 on the censor tape?




Thanks
Bob

_________________
My website: "New Zealand Stamp Images", at www.nzstamps.org.uk describes New Zealand philately, postage stamps, airmails and postal history.

P.C. Stands for Postal Censor(Ship) . PC 90 is the name of the one standard label used by the postal censor department

There were few resealing labels like this PC90 and PC66 etc which were supposed to be standardised through out the " British Empire". They never were and that makes the labels interesting

There are specialist collectors for PC90 labels of WWII from different countries and it is very interesting line of collection.

_________________
Call me "Viswa" please.

The British/UK PC90 and PC66 censor labels were mentioned.

The PC66 labels *ON WWII-ERA MAIL* are especially interesting because these labels were actually left over from WWI. A check of the dates of any PC66-label WWII-era covers that you have will demonstrate that they were used only in the early days of the war.

One can make a fascinating collection of just PC66 usages based on the label type (typestyle, size, formatting, color [Ireland was pink!], etc.). What makes such a collection even more interesting is that it was in this period that there was the greatest use of undercover addresses, regulations were still developing, mail services were being suspended as countries fell under Axis control, etc.

I recently had a cover sent from Sweden to book author via the book publisher in England. The cover was mailed before France and England (and some parts of the BC) declared war with Germany. The cover reached London, was forwarded to France, then forwarded to "Dublin" (which was probably supposed to be Dublin, New Hampsire, in the U.S.) and ended up in Dublin, Ireland, where it was censored -- it may have gone through England again -- and then forwarded to the U.S., where it was again forwarded. While the cover is a mess (other dealers to whom it was initially offered refused it at any price due to quality, without stopping to look at the "story"), it is fascinating.

_________________
Visit www.JaySmith.com for the best in all aspects of SCANDINAVIAN philately, as well as U.S. and WORLDWIDE stamps, collections, lots, etc. There are always interesting Specials available.

Wow...I knew there was something about censored covers!

Thanks for all the additional comments.

I've got David Tett's books (regretfully shipping cost a bomb from Australia) and CCSG's British Asia. I thought so - there was nothing much to go on Malaya - glad you confirmed it.

The resealing tapes in Malaya was EM77. What did EM stood for?

By the way, Viswa's articles in the recent CCSG bulletin intrigued me to pay serious attention to censored covers as an area of specialisation.

I am tempted to purchase all the other handbooks - just a hunch that they will be handy no matter which area I collect. What do you advise?

Hi enoch:
I collect WWI Red Cross Postal History and WWII intercontinental airmail covers (routes and rates). Many of those covers are, of course, censored. To figure these out, I have purchased a good number of censorship books over the years. Knowledge is power! Here are a few that I have found useful (all in English).

Civil Censorship in the United States During World War-II, by Wilfrid N. Broderick and Dann Mayo, Civil Censorship Study Group and War Covers Club: 1980.

Civil and Military Censorship during WW II by Dr. H.F. Stich, W. Stich and J. Specht: 1993.

Intercepted in Bermuda: The Censorship of Transatlantic Mail during the Second World War, by Peter A. Flynn, The Collectors Club of Chicago: 2006

West African Censorship: World War I and II, by J.J. Martin and F.L. EWalton, West African Study Circle: 1993.

West Indian Civil Censorship Devices in World War II, Roses Caribbean Philatelic Handbook No. 1: 1976.

World War Two Censorship Marks, edited by J.A. Daynes (covers marks and labels used by British Empire and Occupied Allied Forces), Forces Postal History Society, 1984.

There are many more besides these!

It's a fascinating area, and will keep you occupied for a lifetime!

Cheers!

John

_________________
.
My Thematic Obsession: "The Story of the Middle Ages (500-1500)"

Have never wondered what EM in EM77 stood for in Malayan Labels . Thanks for the question !

I will dig into this and let you know.

Re the list of Books given above , In my opinion none of the above would be useful in your area of interest. Daynes would be of interest if you collect GB and Indian censorship

_________________
Call me "Viswa" please.

Here's one of my favourite Red Cross (censored) covers from World War One.

A diplomatic cover from the Serbian Exile Legation in Algiers, French Algeria to RC Zurich. French censor and censor tape, and local military censor.

Front and back shown:

Front:



Back:



THIS IS SEXY CENSORSHIP!

John

_________________
.
My Thematic Obsession: "The Story of the Middle Ages (500-1500)"

Thanks Viswa and Jay for the information on PC 90. The following cover is postmarked 30 November 1941 and was sent from New Zealand to US by sea. The USA entered WWII while it was in transit.



It has a very simple Passed by Censor handstamp and the censor tape is plain brown with no inscription. I assume that it was censored on arrival in the USA. My question is about the simplicity of the censor tape and handstamp. Is this because the US had just begun to censor letters and had not yet distributed official censor tape and handstamps to their offices?
Bob

_________________
My website: "New Zealand Stamp Images", at www.nzstamps.org.uk describes New Zealand philately, postage stamps, airmails and postal history.

This does NOT look like a U.S. censor to me. I am NOT expert on that subject, but I suspect that it was censored long before it got to the U.S.

_________________
Visit www.JaySmith.com for the best in all aspects of SCANDINAVIAN philately, as well as U.S. and WORLDWIDE stamps, collections, lots, etc. There are always interesting Specials available.

If my memory serves me right, it is a US censor mark and I should have a few examples somewhere.

Before the US entered the war, the censorship rules in US were not really steam-lined and were chaotic. So did an informed US censor collector friend say to me once.

Hence use of plain paper resealing label is not uncommon.

_________________
Call me "Viswa" please.

Bob:

It is a US censor mark! Known struck in black and dark blue from Dec '41 - May '42 from San Francisco. Type C 1.1.3 in Broderick and Mayo.

Cheers! John

_________________
.
My Thematic Obsession: "The Story of the Middle Ages (500-1500)"

Enoch

Still working on Em and Konrad seems to be on a vacation.

If you want to make your Malaya censor collection interesting try this theme.

Destinations and origins of censored covers bearing Malaya censor marks during 1914-19 or 1939-45 . You will find that it will keep you on your toes and you will be forced learn about the Horse shoe route, Penang-Negapatam-Bombay overland route,
Pacific clipper rates and Atlantic clipper rates just to explain the transit marks and the postage . And there are about 160 odd countries from which mail to Malaya during this period to be chased.

I have one such collection going for WWII Indian censor marks and it makes collecting interesting.


I dont think anyone will manage get all the countries in his lifetime though.

_________________
Call me "Viswa" please.

Hi Enoch + Viswa,

earlier this year there was a display meeting of the Malaya Study Group about censorship, led by Mac. The latest ( August ) edition of the newsletter includes a write up of the meeting. MSG members have received it by now - sent airmail - and it will be on the MSG website sometime soon { should already be there but summer hols appear to have delayed it
}
anyway the article might add a bit of information. Or you can contact Mac through the MSG site

I also enjoy censored covers, especially those which can be "traced" to locate the sender. I can do this with US censored field post items from soldiers/sailors as I have "the books". I am not able to do so with British field post covers, however. Does anyone out there have the means to locate British field posts?

also, anyone interested in swaping censored covers?

thanks

Mike Cherrington

_________________
I am a cover, postal history accumulator who enjoys corresponding and trading with other collectors. Member APS

http://www.pbbooks.com/war.htm

That is the website you need to go to buy a book by Charles Entwistle for Info on British FPO's.

_________________
Call me "Viswa" please.

I realise that this question is like asking "How long is a piece of string?", but was wondering about the typical delay imposed by censoring letters. I am talking about items that passed without any problems. My main interest is in trying to determine which flight a particular cover was sent by.

Is it right to assume that items that do not show any censor marks still went to the censor's office as the decision about whether or not to open an item would have to be made there?

I read that most items in the UK were censored in Liverpool. Does that mean for eaxmple that a letter from London to be sent by air from Poole in Dorset to Australia was first sent to Liverpool? That would impose a significant delay.

I have assumed that covers were postmarked before they were sent to the censor's office. However, I wonder if that was always the case with special flights. For example, the first regular Panam flight from Auckland to San Francisco left on the morning of 20 July 1940 and are postmarked in Auckland on 19 July which does not leave much time for censorship. I have some such covers censored in New Zealand. Were they opened by the censor before they were postmarked?
Thanks
Bob

_________________
My website: "New Zealand Stamp Images", at www.nzstamps.org.uk describes New Zealand philately, postage stamps, airmails and postal history.

I have resource material that will allow me to locate mailers' unit given APO numbers, FPO numbered units, as well as most naval shore units up to 1990.

I would be interested in getting same assistance for British field post numbers from WWII years.

I have some of these items to trade including a few POW covers from German stalags going to Poland for the most part.

thanks

Mike Cherrington

_________________
I am a cover, postal history accumulator who enjoys corresponding and trading with other collectors. Member APS

Is it right to assume that items that do not show any censor marks still went to the censor's office as the decision about whether or not to open an item would have to be made there?

Yes. That is correct. Any cover that came in or went out of the country and in some cases from /to sensitive areas (Inland censorship)were supposed to go through the censor's office. A censor mark with out a resealing label means it has been passed by the censor unopened.

A resealing label obviously means it has been opened.

Absence of censor mark on a cover that required passage through censor's office is usually an oversight.

I read that most items in the UK were censored in Liverpool. Does that mean for eaxmple that a letter from London to be sent by air from Poole in Dorset to Australia was first sent to Liverpool? That would impose a significant delay.

Yes , That is correct. The delay would not have been more than two-three days. In 99% of the cases the censorship would have been done the same day it was received in the censor's office. .

I have assumed that covers were postmarked before they were sent to the censor's office. However, I wonder if that was always the case with special flights. For example, the first regular Panam flight from Auckland to San Francisco left on the morning of 20 July 1940 and are postmarked in Auckland on 19 July which does not leave much time for censorship. I have some such covers censored in New Zealand. Were they opened by the censor before they were postmarked?

There was a special branch called traveler's censorship for people boarding a ship or an aircraft or airmails in most countries,.It is possible that one such branch handled the Special flights. I repeat , a censor mark does not mean that the covers have been opened in the absence of a resealing label. . It just means that the censor has passed them That does not take a long time to put in a stamp in such cases. The post mark was applied usually before the censor mark by the receiving post office/agency.

_________________
Call me "Viswa" please.

Thanks for the suggestion. I thought of that initially but wasn't sure how the theme goes. I guess one way is to identify all the possible routes that passes Penang & Singapore and identify all the countries that could have used those routes, hence censored at Malaya?

Routes can be identified mostly but rates are quite another thing if you dont have the literature of that particular country.

Thanks Viswa for your answers. However, I have a couple of supplementary points.

About half my 1940/41 New Zealand covers to Australia, US or UK have no censor marks of any kind. Indeed, I have only one with a Passed by Censor mark that has not also been opened. I also have UK to NZ covers with no censor marks of any kind. On the other hand, my few covers from India or Malaya all have censor marks and so it could be that procedures differed in different countries.

In my last point about covers postmarked on 19 July 1940 and flown on the morning of 20 July, I was referring to covers that had been opened by censor and then resealed. Given the large quantity of mail on the first regular PanAm flight from Auckland, I cannot see how many such covers could have been opened by the censor unless this happened before they were postmarked.
Bob

_________________
My website: "New Zealand Stamp Images", at www.nzstamps.org.uk describes New Zealand philately, postage stamps, airmails and postal history.