Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

He certainly covered the Feudatory States - don't know about the Convention States (too dull)

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Don't ya mean "too pretty"?

Certainly not

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Here is another interesting story which appeared in the March 2008 issue of India Post. The story centers around an India collector by the name of Gerald Sattin (FRPSL), who was President of the India Study Circle from 2003-2006.

In his own words --

"My interest in military mail stemmed from a chance meeting on a bus in 1934. I was on my way from Tottenham Court Road, to school at Colet Court in Hammersmith, when the 73 bus in which I was travelling filled, and like a well-mannered boy I gave my seat to an elderly lady.

As the bus thinned out after Hyde Park Corner, the seat next to this lady became vacant and I sat down again. The lady, a Mrs. Pringle of Gloucester as I was to find out later, asked me how old I was; where I lived; when was my birthday; and did I collect stamps? I did, being a page filler -- quantity without quality.

As a result of this conversation, I received from this good lady a parcel of stamps and covers on my birthday, for the next five years until she died. The parcels contained stamps and covers, including 1854 issues, from her family who served in the British Army in India, between the 1840s and 1920s.

So started my interest in India and its military mails. It was further stimulated when, doing my National Service, I was commissioned into the Royal Artillery, and served my time as a Troop Officer with the 5th Regiment Royal Horse Artillery, a regiment with its origins as a Bengal Horse Artillery Regiment, and steeped in Indian military history.

I came home on leave on a 48 hour pass unexpectedly, to be greeted by my mother who thought I would be home that weekend and had tidied my room! She saw me visibly pale, and said immediately: "Don't worry, I know you collect stamps." She did indeed ... and had torn all the stamps off the covers, and thrown the envelopes away.

I was so distressed that I sold all my stamps and kept just the pre-stamp entires. India had become independent a few years before, so, when I was demobbed, I decided to concentrate my collecting to India and eventually to the "CAMPAIGN MAILS OF INDIA TO 1909."

And a terrible warning to us all ...

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I am very pleased to announce my order of mint Dhar SG7; SG7b; SG8; SG9; and SG10 arrived in the mail today. Truly a gorgeous set! But I am prejudiced.

Going back to the sheet settings, it's obvious there is no prob in knowing what setting the SG2 sheet is -- since there was only one with which to deal.

But how does one differentiate between the different settings of SG1, since there are four of them?

Eric, there you'll have to fall back on the literature. That said, Setting I is unlikely for the ½ p because it seems to be rather rare. That leaves Setting IV (with its subsettings) and Setting V. When I can (but it may not be until next week) I'll post scans of the other settings I have.

You could probably plate the SG 7 to 10s, if you could find good enough scans of the sheets somewhere, too. That would really be a first AFAIK. I don't think anyone has been crazy enough to attempt it, yet!

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I think there is also Setting 6 as well -- but I don't know how rare that is for SG-1. Well time to start doing some research. As a former history prof once told me -- it's good for the soul.

Eric, I think the ½ p was only SG 2 in Setting VI, but I stand to be corrected. (Hope it does turn out there are both types in Setting VI! It will make life just that bit more interesting still )

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Ah ... you are partly correct .... so I stand corrected (partly).

Correct?

Here is what Gibbons has for Setting VI:

1/2p. (No. 2). 1/4a

Which implies (to my weak mind), SG2 and SG3 are in Setting VI (but not SG-1 as you have noted).

BTW --

I find the idea of attempting to plate SG7-SG10, to be rather intruiging. Even if overwhelming, it allows me as a newcomer to contribute an original area of study.

Go for it, Eric! I'm sorry I can't offer any sheets for scanning, but if you float a request for scans on the ISC, you never know. And that contribution really would make your mark in the annals of Uglies Philately

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Harking back, and having deleted all the pictures and nested quotes ... here is what a Dhar CDS looks like:



Stamps cancelled Dharampuri, and with the Dhar Town receiver below

(And before Eric becomes agitated , the SG 1s are positions 7 to 10 of Setting IVai, and the 2 Annas is position 7 in (of course) Setting VII)

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Now to roll up the sleeves and get stuck into the Dhar settings:

We've already covered Setting VII, with the 2 Anna sheet; that value only exists from Setting VII.

Setting I, I can't show I'm afraid.

Here is Setting II, SG 4



Can't show Setting III

Here is Setting IVa, SG 1



and Setting IVb, SG 1 and including SG 1c in position 7



Setting V, SG 1



The chewed corner is not a particular characteristic of this Setting.

and Setting VI, SG 3



Setting III was subdivided by some writers too, but having misplaced my notes, I can't supply the details.

Now it's your turn Eric: I want to see sheets of Settings I and III

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Yeah but I might be declared criminally insane afterwards.

It will be a mountain of work for sure!

Postal Rates of Dhar State

Doing a little research within the India Post archives yesterday evening, I discovered the postal rates for this Feudatory State, based on a bulletin put out by the local post office, and which was published within the Dhar State Gazette, dated May 29th, 1897.

Apparently the localized mail service (which had commenced a little earlier in the year), was found to be quite unreliable from day to day for both the merchant class, as well as the general public. As a result, the Dhar State Post Office had formulated a business plan, which (it hoped), would contribute some type of stability and consistency for its mail operations.

It announced that, as of June 6th, 1897, post offices in the following nine areas of the State, would be opened:

- Khas Dhar
- Badnawar
- Nalchha
- Mandov
- Sardarpur
- Dharampuri
- Sultanabadbalkhed
- Kukshi
- Gujri

Within each of the above post offices, there would be located one "postal box", in which could be deposited lettermail (both pre-paid and unpaid); as well as newspapers and books (for which pre-payment was a requirement).

Also made available at the above offices, was a Registered Mail service, which - at the buyer's choice - could include an Acknowledgment Due receipt.

In any case, the official postage for Dhar State could only be purchased from authorised employees, within each post office location. No other sales outlets would be permitted.

Postcards and Postal Stationery

The official rate for these items was set at 1/4 anna and 1/2 anna, respectively.

Postage Stamps and Rates

Like the British Empire, Dhar State based most of its rates on the weight of a given letter. Unlike the British Empire, however, it did not use the Imperial system (whose base measurement is ounces), to determine the weight.

Instead, the post office used the Tola System as the means by which the weight was to be determined. In this unit of measurement, 1 Tola was the equivalent weight of 100 Tola seeds, which exact weight varied according to a particular locality.

Generally speaking, 1 Tola approximated the weight of a silver rupee coin, which had been first minted by the British East India Company sometime around 1817 (see picture below).



In imperial measurements, this equates the weight of 1 Tola at approximately 3/8ths ounces (just under half an ounce).

Letter rates were set as follows:

- 2 Tolas or less ... 1/2 anna per Tola (or part thereof).

- Above 2 Tolas .... 1 anna per additional Tola (or part thereof).

Newspaper rates were set as follows:

- 10 Tolas or less .... 1/2 anna (flat rate).

- Above 10 Tolas ..... Considered a book and charged at those specialized rates.

Book rates were set as follows:

- 5 Tolas or less ... 1/2 anna (flat rate).

- 5 Tolas to 10 Tolas ... 1 anna (flat rate).

- Above 10 Tolas ... 1/2 anna (additional) for each 2.5 Tolas in weight.

Non-paid Letters were charged the following rate:

- Under 1/2 Tola .... 1/2 anna

- Between 1/2 and 1 Tola .... 1 anna (total charge).

- Above 1 Tola ... 1 anna (additional) per Tola or part thereof.

Registered Letters were charged the following rate:

- A flat rate of 2 Annas.

- If the abovenoted "Acknowledgment Due" is requested, there will be an additional charge of 1 Anna plus postage.

Dhar State Post had also set a few very interesting rules, in an effort to circumvent people's attempts to save on postal costs.

Each envelope was only permitted to contain one letter, intended for just one recepient! Any attempts to send a second letter within the envelope, would be considered fraud.

Dhar State Post also frowned upon people's attempts to avoid extra charges by mailing two newspapers together as one, and taking advantage of the flat rate.

I wonder what they would have thought of modern attempts to reuse apparently non-cancelled postage? No mention seems to be made of this practise within the bulletin.

An interesting sidelight (well, interesting to me, anyway) is that this coin was amongst those proclaimed in NSW in the early days of the colony. Proclomation coins were those listed on a proclomation of the Governor to try and ensure a supply of circulating currency in the very young colony. Numerous British and foreign coins (including the Indian Rupee and the Indian gold Pagoda) were proclaimed to be worth set amounts, higher than their 'real' face value.

This was an attempt to keep currency in the colony and ease a severe shortage of money (no banknotes in those days!).

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Eric: fascinating stuff on Dhar you've found in the archives. Shows why commercial covers aren't more common!

Now for your next challenge, try to find a CDS from any State PO other than Dhar Town ...

Tony

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

A quick note of course is that those were not the only post offices opened ... but rather some additional ones. Yes I can only imagine the level of difficulty in locating postmarks other than from Dhar Town.

I am currently trying to acquire sheets for the three settings of SG-1 and the only setting for SG-2.

I am thinking of preparing a short article outlining my interest in plating the stamps of SG-7 through SG-10, for submission in the next (available) issue of India Post, since the upcoming one is likely already at press (if not ready for mailing).

Eric, go for it with Arms issue. AFAIK, all the serious work on Dhar has been with the typeset issues, though most of us probably have some oddments of the second set sitting around. The best I can do is a block of 4 and a few assorted marginal copies - nothing likely to be of great use - but you're welcome to detailed scans.

Tony

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Eric, you'll have to fight me for Setting I if it ever comes up ... and I've been on the lookout for it for some time

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Connoisseurs of the Uglies who haven't yet picked up a copy of India Study Circle auction 804, closing on the 24 December, really should do so. There's a very broad range of material on offer, from 40p to £2000 (for a copy of Duttia SG 3) - pages of Cochin, although as far as I can see, only one lot of covers, and some Duttia and Jammu & Kashmir to rob a bank for.

If you aren't an ISC member, but would like to see what's on offer, let me know, and I'll pass on a copy of the catalogue. Non-members are usually free to bid as well.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Interesting ... but I don't see it online?

Maybe we can do like the WWE and have a "Hell-In-A-Cell" match, for it.

Now, Eric, I'm an elderly gent and I wear glasses - you couldn't possibly hit me

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Now Now gentlemen, aren't you lucky I don't collect Indian States

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AUSTRALIA 2013 EXHIBITION - 10 to 15 MAY 2013 - http://www.australia2013.com

This phone box wouldn't be big enough for the three of us

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Hmmmm..... Collecting Barwani.........sounds intriguing.

Mike, the phone box is overcrowded already. We'd have to find a second one ...

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony --

Just wondering about the SG-7 sheets .... would they by any chance be made up of 60 stamps? I thought I read somewhere they consisted of 5 rows of 12 stamps.

Eric, that's my recollection too. The 2 Anna was printed in sheets of 30 - again, if I recall correctly.

I have a note in my records of a (possibly imperf) sheet with the cliche at Row 1/8 missing. It sold for £1600 2 years ago.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I hope this thread is the right one to post in.


It is ugly and I can't seem to find out who issued it.

I love the cancel (or possible overprint?)

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http://www.bluelineapiary.com/

Wrong thread - That's a Turkey issue.

Ok. I'll keep it around for Thanksgiving.

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-=
http://www.bluelineapiary.com/

Hey! It isn't the STAMPS fault it is a turkey!!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

And not every ugly is an Ugly ...

But actually, I find it quite attractive I think you do it an injustice!

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Not really my cup of tea. I found some Inda and a few others. It is pretty ugly tho..

From the internet:

Turkey signed the secret Ottoman-German Alliance on August 2, 1914, and entered hostilities on the side of the Central Powers in October 1914. The war and its disruptions are reflected in Turkey's stamps issued during the war, which included stamps depicting soldiers and battle scenes, a number of provisional stamp issues in which available stocks of older issues were overprinted due to paper shortages, and stamps issued to collect a tax for war orphans.[23] Remainders of stamps as old as 1865 were overprinted [24], some of which already had overprints, and sometimes multiple new overprints were added, resulting in a complex variety of configurations of interest to philatelists. The Allied Forces were victorious and occupied Constantinople, after which the Ottoman government collapsed. The Treaty of Sèvres, August 10, 1920 confirmed the dismemberment of the Ottoman empire.

If anyone wants to trade for them let me know..

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http://www.bluelineapiary.com/

I've just been reminded that the latest India Study Circle auction is closing on the 24 December. ISC members should have received a copy (though I didn't - had to go back to source for one).

It has some pretty heady stuff, like Duttia SG 3 and some very nice stamps indeed from Jammu & Kashmir, as well as pages of Bundi and Cochin, and other nice things.

If you aren't a member of the ISC, and there's any State or issue you're particularly interested in, let me know, and I'll see what can be done.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Any Barwani, Tony? I keep getting this thought running throuigh my head... I must collect Barwani! I must collect Barwani!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Many ... but if you so much as think of bidding on Lots 2643 and 2644, I will track you down, and I will destroy you

But there's a nice marginal SG 2 mint at an E of £200, if you must.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony,

There's another one of them! They're all coming out of the woodwork!

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.ph ... 069#391069

Time to say hello!

Cheers,

Ewen

But 2643 and 2644 are my FAVOURITE numbers!!!!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Ewen, I know Bob, and I plead guilty to having lured him on board. Of course, I made sure that he wasn't too devoted to Barwani before doing so.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Peter, you HAVE been warned ... I will summon a plenary session of the Barwani Club in our top secret phone box to plot your elimination if you dare

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony, I feel SURE we can come to some arrangement, at some future time, when whatever it is that is compelling me to buy Barwani wears off!

I must collect Barwani! I must collect Barwani!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter, perhaps a strong decoction of George V Penny Red? Washed down with a stiff Eau de Kangourou?

But if that fails, I could let you have a nice little starter collection of Barwani, at a most reasonable price of course.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

And now for something completely different ...

Here is a little curiosity from Indore which has just arrived, with the regular stamp as issued at right:



These stamps were recess printed by Waterlow. The set as issued was monocoloured. The curious stamp is, as it appears, rather well travelled, and looks to have been glued to something at one time. Perhaps a printer's sample, showing off what Waterlows could do with recess? It seems a bit elaborate for an essay. In any case, I'd be interested in any thoughts about what it might be.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

My first reaction is that it looks like a chemical changeling, probably done intentionally.

The design does not appear to have been printed with two separate plates, or there would probably be some misalignment of the central vignette. The positioning of the two examples is identical.

Just a guess, though.

Mike, that was my first thought when I saw it, too. Particularly as all these stamps were printed in single colours, with no need for two plates.

The background history does give one a little pause for thought, though. These stamps were printed in recess by Waterlow from 1889. The contract passed to Perkins, Bacon in 1904 (surely an oddity itself: Perkins, Bacon winning a contract at that time), who produced the set for the new Maharaja, again in recess, and in a closely similar design:



Plate proof in near issued colour of the ½ Anna, SG 10

I wonder if PB might have taken over the Waterlow plates, and replaced the Maharaja's head. Or perhaps this was part of a last-ditch effort by Waterlow to keep the contract.

In addition, if I remember correctly, Waterlow were circulating sample books of their work at this time, which included examples of their work for Sirmoor, another Ugly.

Whatever the story, I won't lose much sleep over it. Cost me all of 99p on eBay

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Well, at that price, you'll get a pound of fun out of it!

That does look strange Tony, especially when you note that the borders around each of the stamps have the same heaviness of ink in similar places e.g. each border is darker on the right than the left, and darker on the bottom than the top - making it look like it came from the same lot of printing (to me)

Cheers,

Ewen