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If we follow Gibbons, there seem to be three 'levels' of imperfs.

First there are the plate proofs or colour trials, which Gibbons says were never sent to India. I have these:



Then, there are the 1 Rupee green and red plate proofs,



which Gibbons says are known postally used, and prices mint and used in a footnote.

And finally there are these imperfs specifically ordered by Indore in 1933 and used circa 1938-42, like yours. I also have these:



and these



postally used. I don't know why these particular values were ordered imperf. Was it simply a Depression-era economy measure? There wouldn't have been as much use for such higher values. Maybe it was felt that it wouldn't be such a hardship for the civil servants to cut, rather than tear, them apart.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

and this must be unlisted colour trials or specimens not mentioned in Stanley Gibbons. Carmine Rose colour I guess!

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

There seem to be plenty of these to go around ...

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

GENUINE ??

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

I'm afraid not. The ½ Anna in oil colour on laid paper is a bit out of my league, but here is a 4 Anna:



As you can see, the colour, print quality and paper are all rather different.

And here, for comparison, is the ½ Anna in oil on native paper:



Your stamp appears to be of a genuine type, but the printing is too clear, and I don't recognise the paper as one that was used for the regularly issued Circulars. My best guess, without examining the actual stamp, would be that it's a forgery.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thought so! But was confused by the paper variety

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

Do you have a copy of the ISC Bundi Sacred Cows Handbook? A new edition is in preparation, but the old version still has vastly more information than you'll find in Gibbons

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

No Tony.Actually I had mentioned before I never was a member of ISC (stupid me). I have recently applied for membership though. Alas I have missed too many things!!!

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

anything peculiar in SG75 above that made you refer to ISC handbook??

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

I'm afraid this is an SG 75a - the 'rose' shade. This is a pair of SG 75, the scarlet-vermilion shade:



Once you're a full member of the ISC, I think you can download copies of the Handbooks. They give you so much more information about the details of the stamps, you'll be amazed. As I said, a revised Sacred Cows Handbook - even better than the original, which is really saying something - is being prepared, and member Bookwizards has given us all an updated Alwar Handbook here http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16831.

Armed with all that information, you'll know as much as I do, if not more

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

These are nice pairs, particularly the 2 Anna, which most often appears with a single perf hole in the margin between the stamps:



You can also find the 2 Anna in 'imperf between' pairs, apparently from mis-cut booklet sheets:



where the sheets should have been guillotined between the two stamps.

Now, if you like a real challenge, try using Gibbons to sort out the various printings of Idar SG 1 and 2. I tried, and ended up in a state of total confusion. Then I read an old India Post article about Idar, and everything became much clearer.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

The first pair 1/2 anna blue green SG 3a I guess is the rarest with SG listing it at 300 GBP . Any idea how many of these might be in existence?
I will show you my Idar SG 1 & 2's when I have scanned them. It's very easy to distinguish the printings there

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

About all we do know of the numbers for Idar is those provided for in the first contract, of 27 April 1944, with P.G. Mehta of Himatnagar:
½ Anna: 50,000
1 Anna: 150,000
2 Annas: 25,000
4 Annas: 50,000

Clearly, there must have been reprints, but how many, and of which values, were involved - let alone how many of the imperf between pairs exist - is unknown. (IMHO), Gibbons' listings should also distinguish between orthodox imperf between pairs, and those originating from uncut booklet sheets, like this:



... but that's another story

Oh, and while SG 1 and 2 are easy enough to tell apart, separating the different printings of SG 1 and SG 2 is quite a different matter. Gibbons' listings are good certainly, but they aren't exhaustive. There were more printings of each than Gibbons show.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

This is a very interesting variety. Is it known the reason for this? It appears that there maybe a problem with the perforation row line - possibly in the part of the row some needles broken down?

By comparison of colors, the second imperforate between pair looks also more violet than the first one.

The second pair also looks a little bit more blurred - possibly from later printings.

What a spectacular block, Tony.

Is it a complete uncut sheet - so 3x3 booklet panes in the printing plate?

Ikanek, I believe there must have been at least one more printing of the second type of Idar definitives. As you would well know, complete booklets of 32 of all the stamps in this set are very common. Even allowing for very few actually being used, it's still hard to believe that (say) all the 2 Anna values on sale came from that single printing of 25,000. We also have the example of the several distinct shades of the ½ Anna value.

Having said that, I don't remember seeing any of these 'variant' shades on cover, and I should check my booklets to be sure, but I have the feeling that I haven't seen them in booklets, either. This has to be a bit of a concern.

The 2 Anna imperf between pairs: I've only seen this 'single pin' imperf between on the 2 Anna value, and only in vertical pairs - but I have seen several. Or perhaps it was the same pair reappearing at auction If my uncut booklet sheet represents a complete printer's sheet (I think it does), that suggests that several printer's sheets must have been perforated before the problem was fixed.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

If anyone is interested, the Murray Payne Auction No. 11 catalogue is now available online. Some great items!

http://www.murraypayne.com/Auc/MurrayPayneAuction11.PDF

Thanks, Peterh! I've been visiting their site every few days, waiting for the catalogue. From the teaser scans they've been using to advertise the auction, it's obvious there's some great stuff there.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony could you please identify the stamp and cancel on this .It looks 1/8th anna but the colour is all wrong.

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

I'm not surprised you find distinguishing the 1/8 and ½ Anna values tricky, Mukul! The secret is to look for the extra Persian 'pao'



in the 1/8 Anna, which isn't there in the ½ Anna.

Your stamp looks to me like an SG 145, the ½ Anna vermilion, with the typical 3-ring cancellation of Srinagar, used in the late period. This is correct for a single rate letter. The 1/8 Anna value was only for use as a concessional half-price postcard rate for tourists, and is very scarce on postcard. (I don't have one, and I don't recall one being offered for sale recently. I think Gibbons underprices this stamp used, too. I think it's much scarcer used than mint, not just a bit scarcer.)

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Hello,

I've just received my first ever Bhor so would appreciate some help confirming that these are genuine! Particularly the SG2 which, honestly, all look completely different. I have read that there are two paper types on the first page - but I am struggling to id which is which. As for colours, are there any colours which deserve their own listings?

Also, are any of the postmarks not CTO / legible? I have tried to identify them but again have got nowhere.

I believe these are all SG1











I believe these are SG2:





And these are SG 3

All perfectly genuine, and a fine assembly of shades. Gibbons used to distinguish 'lake' and 'pink' colours, but those are really just the two ends of the spectrum of shades you find on SG 1 and 2. For what it's worth (not terribly much IMHO), in 1941, Gibbons priced both shades identically mint and used for the ½ Anna, and 4/- for the lake and 3/6 for the pink 1 Anna mint (5/- each for the used). You can have a fine old time putting together a showing of these, but as each printing probably used a different mix of ink, and printings were probably small and made on demand, you can see the possibilities are practically infinite within the lake-to-pink range

All your cancellations appear to be of Bhor Town. As this cancellation was used both for postal purposes and to CTO, whether a stamp is commercially used is often a moot point. The quality of the cancellation isn't necessarily a guide either. However, I'd strongly suspect your cut-to-shape ½ Anna of being a commercial use. Actual users were more likely to do this than collectors. I believe the Bhor Town cancels read 'Post Bhor', but I'm open to correction Incidentally, I can't recall ever seeing an unquestionably commercial cancellation on an SG 2. The only ones I've seen have been on SG 1, which would have been the single letter rate.

The papers: the normal paper for Bhor was a native 'laid' paper. The laid lines may be more or less obvious, and there can often be fragments of wood or bark visible in the paper. As native paper-making was a small-scale, manual, batch operation, you find considerable variation. None of it has much significance, though. You can also find what looks very much like a European laid paper: finer quality, with regular laid lines. This seems to be quite scarce.

Your SG 3s are quite OK. However, there is some controversy over these stamps. Some authorities say that the Bhor State PO closed in 1895, and that SG 3 was never properly used for postal purposes. AFAIK, the question is still unresolved. There was a delightful vanity cancellation used on SG 3



which is worth looking out for - even if it never was legitimately used

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Another update on this

So I got even more interested and did some digging around, and found this article by Mr.Trowbridge from India Post 1980 issue #64, Vol 14



Not that Iam biased towards this being a genuine overprint, but the bolded portion makes perfect sense to me. Couple of reasons :
1. The type face is almost exactly the same as Type14 for SG 49
2. Both issues were from 1929
3. The ink seems perfectly normal to me - there's none of the flakiness/scratchiness or the dullness associated with other forged Cochin overprints I have seen. If it was forged, it was done by an exceptionally skilled forger!!

I agree with Mr.Trowbridge that if at all it was genuine, every stamp in that sheet had to have the same overprint. So, if there were 48 examples of this stamp out there, I havent seen too many of these, though its apparent Mr.Trowbridge has seen atleast one other, and its very likely the number of sheets produced, if at all this assumptions is true, must have been very very few..

In the subsequent issue of India Post after this article appeared, India Post # 65, Mr.Trowbridge reports that the then SG O23a " Pies for pies" variety has been deleted from SG upon his behest though there isnt any furthur information or rationale for the decision..

If Trowbridge asked Gibbons to delete the listing, he must have been certain that the stamp wasn't genuine.

Even the experts can make mistakes of course, but Trowbridge did know about as much of Cochin as anyone

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Hi
Genuine Postal Use?

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

Extremely unlikely, I think. The Kotah State Post Office had been absorbed into the British Indian long before the time of this stamp

I don't have any specimens to show, but from memory, the Kotah stamps rather resembled Jhalawar type postmarks handstamped onto pieces of paper.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Here is scan of Kotah cancellation





The kotah stamp is made up of cutout of above cancellation with minor changes and date added by hand.Mr.Sandeep Jaisawal had written an excellent article on kotah stamp in ISC journal.

opkedia

Mukalgarga,

Your Kotah stamp is a Type 40 revenue never used for postage.

Just couldn't help asking.....what are Uglies?

Aussietrekker, I should first apologise for the mystification

Many, many years ago, a collector of British Indian ('proper') stamps sniffily dismissed the stamps of the Indian States as 'the Uglies'. He was referring to the, to his mind, unsophisticated designs and occasionally primitive printing methods common amongst these stamps in the 19th century.

This is the sort of thing the stiff-necked collector had in mind:

From Bhor



SG 1 - the 1879 ½ Anna

From Bundi



SG 3 and 3a, the 1896 ½ Anna

and my avatar here, from Poonch



SG 15 - the 1884 4 Anna on white laid bâtonné paper

So you be the judge, Aussietrekker. Sure, these aren't as pretty and nicely printed as a Penny Black. But to my mind, they do have a certain irresistible charm. That's why I, and many other collectors of the Indian States also, am proud to call myself an Uglies collector

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Oh I think they're beautiful. I thought it might have referred to the old men on the stamps. My personal epitomal definition of an ugly stamp is anything with President Kennedy on it.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

Now, now, Aussietrekker, you're a bit young on Stampboards to be trailing your coat already

And as for Ugly Old Men on stamps, well, there is my favourite contribution from Kishangarh State:



SG 30 - the 1899 2 Anna

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Wow, there's a ravin' beauty....I could really fancy him!

Er, Aussietrekker ... you do speak in jest, don't you?

Here is a later attempt:



I've been, quite properly, taken to task for my comments on the six rulers of Cochin who appear on their stamps. But can I put it this way: These are truely warts and all portraits



Compare these with the ongoing Machin portrait of HM on UK stamps. Did I hear someone whisper 'Truth in advertising'?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

And now back to the real world ...

This purported Cochin SG 83



has just turned up on eBay, http://www.ebay.com/itm/India-Cochin-1942-9p-on-1a-Lightly-Mounted-MINT-Stamp-SG-83-/150790859542 from seller aj2905, for £135. I think the is either an SG 82 or more likely a forgery. This is my used SG 83



and for comparison, an SG 80, with the large letters in ANCHAL, common to SG 82



What do the experts think?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I just couldn't resist myself to quote a bit off the subject of ugly stamps:

here are coins of western satraps dynasty (circa 35-400 AD) which depicted the portrait of the ruler






The front shows the portrait of the ruler and sometimes the year of minting coin in saka samvat and the reverse shows the name of ruler and his father's name in Brahmi language.With the help of these coins the historians were able to chronologise the entire dynasty of western satraps(total 27 rulers ).

Related article from wikipedia


The Western Satraps, Western Kshatrapas, or Kshaharatas (35–405) were Saka rulers of the western and central part of India (Saurashtra and Malwa: modern Gujarat, Southern Sindh, Maharashtra, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh states). Their state, or at least part of it, was called "Ariaca" according to the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea.
They were successors to the Indo-Scythians, and were contemporaneous with the Kushans who ruled the northern part of the Indian subcontinent and were possibly their overlords, and the Satavahana (Andhra) who ruled in Central India. They are called "Western" in contrast to the "Northern" Indo-Scythian satraps who ruled in the area of Mathura, such as Rajuvula, and his successors under the Kushans, the "Great Satrap" Kharapallana and the "Satrap" Vanaspara.[1] Although they called themselves "Satraps" on their coins, leading to their modern designation of "Western Satraps", Ptolemy in his 2nd century "Geographia" still called them "Indo-Scythians".[2]
Altogether, there were 27 independent Western Satrap rulers during a period of about 350 years. The word Kshatrapa stands for satrap, and its equivalent in Persian Ksatrapavan, which means viceroy or governor of a province.


The Kshatrapas have a very rich and interesting coinage. It was based on the coinage of the earlier Indo-Greek Kings, with Greek or pseudo-Greek legend and stylized profiles of royal busts on the obverse. The reverse of the coins however is original and typically depict a thunderbolt and an arrow, and later, a chaitya or three-arched hill and river symbol with a crescent and the sun, within a legend in Brahmi. These coins are very informative, since they record the name of the King, of his father, and the date of issue, and have helped clarify the early history of India.

I hope the ugly fans would enjoy it.

opkedia

Interesting. VERY interesting.
Opkedia why don't you start a separate thread on coins here? Perhaps we can rename the forum as stampcoinboards.com

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

Tony
For sure its SG 82, and not 83
spacing of opt: is perfect, ink well matched and no font anomalies noted.I think I'll give 100 out of 100(without seeing the reverse) for ths one, unless done by a skilled forger
and of course the wrong pricing
the image in ebay is of 200 dpi, i have compared my copy which was scaled down to same resolution and done a photoshop superimposition and result seems ok to me

George

Thanks, George - apart from anything else, the perfs looked like 11 to me, not 13x13½.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony
Perf. is 11 x 11 line

George

This Cochin O20a used stamp on eBay seems to have a forged overprint

http://www.ebay.com/itm/COCHIN-S-G-020a ... d=ViewItem

The "Eight Pies" surcharge looks suspect to me, especially the "P" in Pies.

An altercation with a sweet natured :( ebayer

(Me)
Dear collstamps,
Hello
Please include only ordinary international mail charges in the invoice.Your shipping and handling charges were listed as 2.25 GBP to India on the listing page.Regards
(seller)
Hello,
Please see detailed postage instructions with item.I'm sorry, but I am forced to do this.regards, Nye (though he is wrong he had posted it in the payment instructions instead of shipping details)
(me)
Hello
In that case kindly cancel my purchase. As paying 7.5 GBP postage for a 31 GBP stamp is outrageous.Regards

now the best part

(seller) No problem.However, it is more outrageous that some of your fellow-countrymen are very dishonest on ebay, which is why I am forced to this.

Is there anything as ebay conversational etiquettes??

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

Rakesh is perfectly right, a real fake....

Position R - 4/8 carries this variety in the sheet and in the surcharge "i" in "Eight" is thin and lean , so is the "t" in "Eight" . here's the genuine O20a below



and the ebay item..."i" and "t" in "eight" is large and the vertical bar of "P"is some what truncated;And the upward loop of "h" in eight is suspicious .
since there is only one setting of this surcharge I dont believe there should be any difference in the type faces

And some poor chap has put a bid also on this..

Under magnification, the '8' appears to lie over the postmark.

Case closed on this one, I think. It just remains for someone to ask the seller to remove it. Any volunteers?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Does anybody know of any institution, library or somesuch in the UK that has a large holding of the 'Philatelic Journal of India' and the 'Collector's Club Philatelist? Particulary from the 1930s-1940s. Just did a quick search on the British Library website to no avail. The reason is I just bought a whole load of photocopied material from these publications on eBay, all to do with my beloved Hyderabad. Some of these articles I have been hunting for for years but because of the limitations of photocopying the illustrations are so badly reproduced as to be utterly useless despite the text being perfectly clear. I was just wondering if there was anywhere I could get decent scans or photographs of these articles.

Any ideas?

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I believe there is another world waiting for us, Sixsmith. A better world.

Doesn't the ISC library have the PJI for the relevant period?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thanks Tony. As usual, the patently obvious failed to materialize in my poor addled mind.

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I believe there is another world waiting for us, Sixsmith. A better world.