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Domburd, I'm not at all surprised. Too much exposure to Hyderabad, not enough to the good stuff, like Barwani, for instance

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Bar-what?

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I believe there is another world waiting for us, Sixsmith. A better world.

Bahhhh! Big state imperialism! Just because the entire population of Barwani would have equalled a couple of suburbs of Hyderabad City ...

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Bar-this. . . . . .



isn't it Tony?

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

A nice lot of Barwani The pick of the crop is, of course, the 4 Anna, SG 31. There is a scarcer, pale shade, from another setting of the clichés, but that looks quite a nice copy.

The first stamp would be very nice too, if it was genuinely used. However, I'm not sure that it is. There looks to be just too much space on either side of the fleuron to be a genuine Barwani 2-ring CDS. The shortest place name in Barwani was Pati



but I think at least the beginning of the 'Ri Barwani' should have been visible. Plenty of the British Indian CDSs had fleurons in the bottom of the circle, far away from any lettering:



so I suspect that may be the origin. Now while this stamp might, in theory, have come from a combination cover, that in fact can be ruled out. There were British Indian POs in every village in Barwani which had a State PO, so there was no need for a combination cover to have been created. I've never seen or heard of one.

The last 2 Anna is nice: SG 41B.

The wide setting ¼ Annas could be from Settings 6, 7 or 9. I'd have to identify the individual clichés to be able to tell which.

The first ½ Anna and 1 Anna Devi Singh in row 3 have the characteristic 'long' shape of Setting 6. These two aren't scarce, but the 2 Anna (400 printed) and 4 Anna (1000 printed) from Setting 6 are. If you think you've found an SG 35aB, compare the shape of the stamp with one of these two. If the shape matches, you're in luck

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Bundi SG14a (purported to be) finally at BPA. Keeping my fingers crossed.

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

Now the wait begins: the mills of the BPA grind slow, but they grind exceeding fine. You'll have to be patient, but you'll most likely get a definitive answer on this one, I'd say.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. It would be very nice to have been associated, even in such a small way, with the discovery of an SG 14a

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thanks a ton Tony for all the encouragement.

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

I asked the seller J M Singh to remove it and he did go ahead and withdraw it before the sale ended.

FYI - I have had a couple of bad experiances with this seller Jai Manmohan Singh. I had bought a purported SG O10a 4p green double overprint which came back from BPA as a "dangerous forgery". I had also bought a doubtful SG O103b 6p on 9p carmine double surcharge, which I suspected to be a forgery and bought it on condition that I will return if confirmed.

So when I contact this person for the return, he says he cannot pay me back but can refund me in equivalent Cochin stamps. Agreed reluctantly to that, but no word for months.

Recently looks like he's trying to sell his stock again on eBay. I went ahead and reminded him of his earlier promise, but looks like he has no intention of fulfilling it.

He seems to be specializing in forged Cochin overprints (infact sometime back he sent me scans of around 5-6 Cochin high-values, ALL of which had forged overprints!) - strongly advise against dealing with this guy.

This is very bad news, for you particularly Rakesh, but also for the rest of us. If the BPA says that an item is a 'dangerous forgery', then I for one am really alarmed. It narrows the field of dealers we can trust enormously. Who knows how many collectors have bought this material in good faith, and may eventually try to sell it on?

Leaving aside the really silly, obvious forgeries we all know, there are serious dangers for us out there. I've said that someone has and is using a selection of the Barwani cancellers. From the evidence of the two lots of Jasdan with Bandikui (Jaipur) CDSs offered in the Gärtner sale last year, we can't automatically trust Bandikui cancellations on Jaipur. And now 'dangerous' forgeries of Cochin

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

While on the subject of Jasdan. Let me show you mine .
Can you please identify the SG Nos. for me. I have marked the nos. based on Perforations though the colours do not exactly match Stanley Gibbons. I do not understand that why is this Colour-perf mismatch. Or I am not able to identify the blue green correctly???

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

Rakesh

sometime back the same seller listed Cochin SG 51a in ebay which was identified as a forgery.seems he's on the business for atleast 2 years

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8480&p=1237507&hilit=cochin+51a#p1237507

To be honest, I always find these quite difficult to assign to Gibbons numbers. There may have been more printings of the stamps than Gibbons numbers, which only confuses matters more. There is a good article on the stamps in India Post No.151, starting a page 3, on the archive CD. This may help.

I should add that I'd be rather doubtful about the cancellations. I haven't seen many genuine Jasdan cancellations, but yours look just a bit too good.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Dear Tony
Some of the stamps I had been showing here recently (including Barwani and Jasdan) belong to a very exhaustive collection that is if I could rightly guess is somewhat 40-50 years old. I could tell so by the paper on which these were hinged. The collection spanned right from Alwar to Wadhwan. All the stamps were hinged in the exact order of Stanley and there are very few stamps that are missing in the each state. The cost of these stamps must have been very miniscule at that time as the collector had not given any special preference to higher catalog value. Except that the rarer stamps are marked with there SG nos. on the pages with the pencil. Almost all the perforation varieties are present with hardly any exceptions.I really am surprised with exhaustiveness of the collection. I was able to grab Barwani,Bhopal, Bhor,Bijawar,Bundi, Idar, Indore, Jaipur, Jammu and Kashmir, Jasdan,Jind,Kishangarh. In the rest I was beaten hands down (perhaps as I was not too agressive in bidding there).
I the light of the above facts I very much doubt that the collection would be including a forged cancellation as the collector seems to be very knowledgeable about the stamps. I would show you the closeup of the cancellations. Incidentally Bundi SG14a belonged to the same collection but was hinged at the wrong position so the collector perhaps had missed out on the missing letters. Regards

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

On the used Jasdan, I'm pretty confident this



is a genuine, in period, Jasdan cancellation.

I'd just caution that age is no guarantee that anything is genuine. There was a warning about faked Idar cancellations in an India Post article 30 or 40 years ago. Idar shares similarities with Jasdan: both from the Gujarat, both from the 1940s, both very much much more expensive used than mint, and both rubber stamp cancels. I treat any very clear Idar cancellations with suspicion until they prove they're innocent. This



is the sort of thing I prefer to see from Idar.

Going further back, the notorious Missing Die forgeries of the Jammu & Kashmir Circulars were contemporary, or very nearly so, with the legitimate stamps. Gibbons claim to have received forged Sacred Cows in contemporary supplies received from the Bundi Post Office. Forging and faking the Indian States is just about as old as the stamps themselves

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Changing the subject slightly, but I recently came across John Preston's excellent Bamra website, which I haven't seen publicised before. Has great guides on distinguishing the good from the bad in Bamra, and lots more information suplementing Ray Benns' ISC Handbook:

http://www.bamra.org/index.htm

Thanks for pointing that out peterh! I hadn't seen it before: it looks like a really worthwhile effort. I'm looking forward to exploring it properly in the (my ) morning.

To refresh the memory of any readers who don't recall Bamra, this is a complete setting of one of the stamps:



You can see the possibilities!

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

peterh my wife just saw me oogling at the website of Bamra--- gave a hard look at it--- and had started packing her suitcase. I have assured her that nothing to worry because I do not collect Bamra but she doesn't seem to be convinced watching the grin on my face

Thanks for such an informative site. I never used to take much interest in Bamra but now everything has changed

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

I agree completely!

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Apologies for spreading marital dysharmony

Perhaps you can advise your wife to blame me!

One of the problems of course is how to define areas outside your collecting interests - I have several shoeboxes and stockbooks full of stuff that I "don't collect"

Very Very nice Tony. Thanks for sharing.

The third, fourth and fifth Oriya characters appear to be different in some stamps. The "P" and the "p" , both can be seen in "postage". The shape and orientation of the central ornament , whatever the beejoo it is... also varies considerably.

Yes Tony, the possibilities are endless..

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http://princelystatecoins.wordpress.com
http://oldindiacoins.wordpress.com

Well, I see that John Preston now identifies 38 settings against the mere ten according to Major Evans and Ray Benns' Handbook. The possibilities are indeed endless!

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Nice selection of Barwani. Thanks for sharing. I have about thirty Fiscals and only one Postal (the sixth stamp in Row 2 above).

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http://princelystatecoins.wordpress.com
http://oldindiacoins.wordpress.com

Thanks Birder
One Barwani!?!? I think you have not been keeping good company with Tony
But then you must be concentrating on some other area of uglies

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

Well, it looks as if at least one eBay seller has taken my bait on Barwani

Seller phil-centre in the UK has this lot



http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380428884878

on offer for a fairly trifling £45.45, and £7 Economy international postage to me in Australia. Interesting because, by my reading of Gibbons, these are catalogued at a reasonable £12.

Alternatively, for the same price, I could have these:



http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380428768573

which we are told are "1932 Indian States Fed. Barwani 4 mint stamps incl. 1 with gum wash looks good". Now call me an old stick-in-the-mud if you like, but I do like to consult Gibbons on catalogue values before releasing the moths from my wallet. I find these four, if they all had gum and still looked good, would catalogue £32.25.

I suppose I should feel flattered that my efforts to promote Barwani have been so successful.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

So here's your chance Birder!

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

This one....a real rarity it seems priced at "just" 5000 GBpounds .
"patiaea" instead of "patiala" , I didnt even hesitated to look into my gibbons patiala section whether such an error was listed bcos its too obvious that the "L" of Patiala was altered to "E". correct me if im wrong

Seller creativityplus4.

Ahhhh, creativityplus4 ... This poor man: the sources he buys from (to resell on eBay) take such advantage of him! He's such a trusting soul, and they're forever leaving him with forged cancellations on high value Convention States - which he, innocently of course, offers for sale to us. I see that these fiends, who exploit poor old creativityplus4, have now tricked him into trying to sell these outrageous PATIAEA fakes.

My heart bleeds for poor old creativityplus4.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony, you are in such a forgiving mood - is everything OK?

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Mike
Why do we need perforations? Scissors are cheap!

No Sir, thank you. I must politely decline.

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http://princelystatecoins.wordpress.com
http://oldindiacoins.wordpress.com

Are you well Tony?

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I am having fun collecting WW and Indian States.

But he still has one example more than me.
And yes, I am in good company with Tony and therefore I did not try to get even a single piece of Barwani postage stamp.

In fiscals, I have about two dozens of various issues and about 10 examples of stamp papers.

I just feel sorry for the poor man. Fakes and forgeries seem to follow him around, more than any just about any other dealer I know. Such bad luck is hardly natural ... is it?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

NOW ENOUGH OF THAT EMPATHY TOWARDS A EBAY THIEF

What's the difference between Yellow Laid Paper and Yellow Laid Batonne

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

Tony,

Maybe he exemplifies what these guys are singin' about (from an old TV program called "Hee-Haw." Don't know if you got it down under). "If it weren't fer bad luck I'd have no luck at at all." http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1okb5EIo1nw

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"Making money is a hobby that will complement any other hobbies you have, beautifully." - Scott Alexander
I collect Souvenir Sheets postally used on cover, WW used stamps up to 1957 except everything of Brasil and Argentina.

Well, we don't have an irony icon

Now, in laid bâtonné paper, you have the ordinary laid lines, and more widely spaced bâtonné lines which run at right angles to the laid lines. Does that make sense? I've always found laid lines difficult to show in scans.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Timbres, that probably sums up poor old creativityplus4's situation. And since we're quoting Youtube, this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcbLoRPI0Q0 might also do for him

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

The perfins of Cochin are well known, also in Travancore and Travancore-Cochin are some reported, but how it is with Hyderabad?

I bought several very cheap lots in ISC auction for less than 1 pound each, each consists of about 20 stamps of the same denomination (small type common items) and on one of them is some part of perfin. I will post here scan of this item during weekend.

I tried to find some info in India Post archive but it failed.

Ikanek, SJE perfins, for Salar Jung Estate, are known on 19th Century Hyderabad. This is an example:





(Apologies for the hinge.)

Salar Jung was Prime Minister and owner of very extensive estates in his own right. Apparently these perfins were used in the administration of the estates.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thanks Tony for posting. In my copy only part of E is visible, but most likely it will be the same perfin.

I know Salar Jung, he also used revenues and stamped papers, but with additional overprints.

A very busy man, Salar Jung!

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

On the subject of perfins,



Here's an example of TMC perfin

Its actually M over TC on this one..so if the perfin on the SG 86a is genuine we have had 4 varieties, M over TC, TC over M, TM over C and TMC in a straight line

Paper colour help please



Is it Blue-Green or Lavender or Blue Paper

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

Blue-green, I think. Is it the laid, or the wove bâtonné?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

It's wove batonne

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

It appears that we may have to add Morvi to the list of States whose printing plates have fallen into the wrong hands.

I picked up the stamps in the top row recently on eBay



Indisputably genuine types on the bottom row

These stamps were from the last printings, by the Morvi Press. There is plenty of variability in the shades of the genuine stamps, and some of the plates were showing signs of wear towards the end.

Any comments?

However, the stamps in the top row seem to show more signs of wear generally. Moreover, while the perforations match - sort of - the genuine items, these are all without gum, while the genuine were gummed.

I can't find anything about these in the India Post archive, and I suppose they could have been from a late or last printing before the State PO closed, but I think more likely these have been taken from the genuine plates, as has been done with Barwani and Idar for certain.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thanks for posting these Tony. I saw the lot on eBay and thought they looked distinctly odd.

I wondered whether they may have been trial printings, maybe when the plates returned to Morvi, but as you say, they appear more worn than in the final states of the issued stamps.

The colour shades are wrong of course, which is what caught my eye when I first saw them. And what about the paper - is that very different from the 1935-48 issue?

BTW - the issue before these has long been described as the 'London' printing - but is it known where/who did the printing in London?

Tony-I still know little about all these states and nothing about Morvi.

However, SG says Morvi's issues are typo, while those stamps in the top row really look like they are lithographed

That was a thought-provoking idea, Mike. I had a closer look at the 6 Pies dark green, as it was the most dodgy-looking of the lot:



and here it is, alongside a genuine 2 Anna



I think the close-up view shows it was probably printed typo, with that ink forced to the edge of the cliché at the top particularly. The half-tone around the portrait is still there, sketchily, in the other 6 Pies, and the 1 and 2 Annas.

I also tried comparing the perforations of the dubious Morvi 6 Pies lighter green (because it had the cleanest perforations) first with a known reprint from the Barwani plates, made probably in the 1970s. They didn't match. I then compared them with a genuine Morvi SG 17b (at left), again because it had the cleanest perfs I could find:



I don't think this is really conclusive one way or the other. The perforations on the genuine stamps are pretty rough anyway. And these Morvi reprints are likely more recent productions; the device used for the Barwani might not be available any more.

The difference in papers is very obvious, even allowing for the absence of gum on the doubtful stamp.

The absence of the 3 Pies value is another telling point. It had been rendered obsolete by the late '40s. It might it not have been reprinted late in the valid life of the set, but perhaps the plate had been disposed of when the value was no longer needed.

On balance, I still think these are reprints from the original plates. If there had only been one shade of the 6 Pies, I might have been tempted to put the stamps down to a very late printing. However, the presence of both an 'emerald-green' (as SG 17a) and a 'yellow-green' (as SG 17b) seems a bit too much.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I agree it looks like typo, and I think one can see some of the embossing effect from the frame from the back.

However, look at the flaws on the 6 pies- the extra ink spots below the bottom frame, and the scallops at the top & bottom of the value tablets.

In the genuine, the scallops are rectangular, while in the reprints they are pyramid shaped, and at the top over '6 pies' are actually semicircles.

That is not the normal way a zinc or tin plate would wear- but these type of flaws are typical of what would occur in a new (poor quality)plate made by a photographic process.