Banging the drum for the Uglies

tonymacg · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2012 00:52:12 am

Mike, here are 1200 dpi scans of the three remaining stamps:

I suspect the old plates are being recycled because they were probably sitting around in someone's shed, and could be bought for a nominal sum. Also, if I were going to go to the trouble of forging Morvi plates, I think I'd go for, say, SG 1-3, at £160, rather than an incomplete set of SG 17-19, at £18, less the 3 Pies value (at £2). But you may be right. What do others make of these things?

mikeg · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:17:36 am

Tony- you need to find a full sheet

That will make it easier to decide what these are

tonymacg · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:03:45 pm

You're probably right, Mike

I'd need to find examples/an example from the last printings from the plate, in order to be sure. Morvi included sheet numbers

at top right on its sheets, but AFAIK, there is no published census of the numbers. This makes it difficult to be sure what the last printings looked like.

Into the 'Too hard, but probably dud' basket for the time being, I think

mukulgarga · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 00:42:19 am

tonymacg wrote:

Into the 'Too hard, but probably dud' basket for the time being, I think

very very expensive dud I would say :wink:

mukulgarga · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 00:51:21 am

Identified now
SG 029a optd Type B

tonymacg · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 01:16:54 am

On the subject of dubious items, and the Indian States more generally, I'd like to quote a paragraph from a piece 'KG VI Collecting - a fertile field', in the latest Murray Payne newsletter, Sixth Sense:

'When my grandfather collected, he had no interest in the Indian States, which were regarded as 'fringe' items at best. My father held the same views. It was the rise of the printed album, with a space for every stamp issued during the reign, which began to fuel demand for these issues; now there is a growing demand from India itself, mostly for Indian stamps proper but this demand must inevitably spill over into the States material as the market becomes more sophisticated. The Convention States are relatively straightforward (unless you collect used - beware of 'bargains' in this field, which are invariably provided with faked cancels), but the Feudatory States are complex, fascinating and fraught with complications. One caveat; if you collect this area you must buy only from reputable sources, or you can lose a fortune - we have seen it happen. You must be prepared to spend money on Expertising fees, unless you know more about the subject than the dealer/auction house from whom you are buying. You have also to cultivate patience - some of this material is available so rarely that when it does appear on the market, catalogue price can go out of the window.'

Wise words!

maturin · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 14:10:03 pm

Bohr SG#2 Copy 1

Bohr SG#2 Copy 1 back

Bohr SG#2 Copy 2

Bohr SG#2 Copy 2 back

Bohr SG#2 Copy 2 1200dpi detail

Sure, the princely states take patience and knowledge (and sometimes risk). But for collectors of Bohr, its all about the love. Luuuuuuve.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 15:07:23 pm

As Bertie Wooster often remarked to Jeeves, Rem acu tetigisti, Maturin :lol:

And on the subject of risk, has anyone else noticed the second stamp from the left on the bottom row of this eBay lot?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120895341252

The seller, melbournestamps, has some other items listed which all appear OK, but that stamp worries me. It looks a bit too like the dubious items I posted earlier.

This is my copy of SG 10:

Now, granted this set often does look a bit motheaten, that eBay 1 Anna looks a lot more motheaten than mine. Here's an example of the ½ Anna, with about the usual level of motheaten-ness:

I'm not entirely sure about the 1 Anna brown next to the SG 10, either.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 15:19:02 pm

mukulgarga wrote:

Identified now
SG 029a optd Type B

Benns is interesting on this stamp:
'3A Setting 16, cliche C is known with the dot and semi-circle missing or, presumably, unprinted. The 10A value cliche C also occurs with a faint trace of them and they are sometimes very weak in other cliches.'

Yours is a textbook example of cliché C, with the prominent white dot at top right above the value tablet.

ravind2 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 15:49:58 pm

Fake??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/India-Charkari- ... 324wt_1026

birder · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 16:14:51 pm

Why do you think this Charkhari One Anna is fake? This imperf example is badly "cut into" at top right. But otherwise it appears OK.

ravind2 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 16:23:21 pm

I may be wrong. I was not 100% sure - so I was asking some of the experts here.The lettering on the stamp seems different from what I see in the catalogue. For example all the "A"'s and the "R" in the word CHARKHARI is filled up with blobs in the stamp.

Also I am looking at your blog - your collection of Cochin/ Travancore is very nice. Besides yours, mine looks pathetic.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 16:29:43 pm

ravind2 wrote:

Fake??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/India-Charkari- ... 324wt_1026

This is the stamp in question:

I agree with Birder: I think it's OK, but, of course, it's been used as a revenue, not a postage stamp. Ravind2, don't worry about the letters being fillied with ink. AFAIK, these were handstamped from an old inkpad. Some letters could be clogged with ink if the handstamp was over-inked.

The typical fakes of this stamp have the infamous 'POSTASE'

One eBay seller insisted that this was as illustrated in Scott. Can anyone confirm this?

ravind2 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 16:33:02 pm

Thanks for your analysis Tony and Birder - I learn a lot from reading this thread. One more question if you don't mind. How did you figure out that this was used as a revenue and not postally used?

tonymacg · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 16:51:10 pm

The genuine postal cancellations of the period for Charkhari were usually single ring CDSs, like this lot from the current Murray Payne auction:

A simple pen-and-ink cross as in the eBay lot immediately spells fiscal use.

Just by the bye, I think the description of this lot on eBay is just a little cute. If you take the whole description and the scan together, you can see - if you know - that it is a fiscal use. But plenty of bidders could be misled. This seller, alphaomegaphilately2, is a rather slippery character.

maturin · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 16:53:35 pm

tonymacg wrote:

As Bertie Wooster often remarked to Jeeves, Rem acu tetigisti, Maturin :lol:

Credo nos in fluctu eodem esse. [I think we're on the same wavelength.]

This thread now returns to its regularly scheduled discussion of crimes against collectors of Morvi and Charkhari.

ravind2 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 16:58:54 pm

Thanks Tony

. Sigh...so much to learn, so little time.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 17:13:51 pm

Ravind2, I've been at it for 50 years, and I agree with your sentiments completely :lol:

birder · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 17:36:49 pm

tonymacg wrote:

ravind2 wrote:

Fake??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/India-Charkari- ... 324wt_1026

This is the stamp in question:

I agree with Birder: I think it's OK, but, of course, it's been used as a revenue, not a postage stamp. Ravind2, don't worry about the letters being fillied with ink. AFAIK, these were handstamped from an old inkpad. Some letters could be clogged with ink if the handstamp was over-inked.

The typical fakes of this stamp have the infamous 'POSTASE'

One eBay seller insisted that this was as illustrated in Scott. Can anyone confirm this?

Tony,

You need to sync your posts with photobucket properly so that we can see the images.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 17:39:54 pm

Birder, the images are showing up properly on my screen. What are you seeing?

birder · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 18:08:28 pm

All I can see is the word "Image" in places where the image is supposed to be.

The only image I can see on this page is the Bundi stamp in your post "Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:49:02 am".

Very very strange.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 18:14:08 pm

I use Firefox, and that happens to me occasionally. It usually rights itself eventually. Have you tried refreshing the page?

birder · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 18:17:26 pm

Still happening on Firefox.
I have switched to Internet Explorer. Problem Solved.

birder · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 18:24:38 pm

tonymacg wrote:

The genuine postal cancellations of the period for Charkhari were usually single ring CDSs, like this lot from the current Murray Payne auction:

.

Tony, this is a great cover...do you have it?....thanks for sharing the image. BTW, What is the last line in the address. While there is a town called Sathwara in that region, the last line of the address is not very clear.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 18:40:39 pm

I can't make out that last word. But you're right: Satwara cancellations are at least known on (genuine) Charkhari covers.

That SG 30 cover is up for auction in the Murray Payne sale on the 26th April, Lot 441:

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/murray-payne-ltd/catalogue-id-2861169?page=9

I would certainly like to have it - but there's about a million pounds' worth of other stuff I'd like to have in the same auction :lol:

In fact, going by the very strong prices for good material on eBay recently, I might have to make that £2 million worth ...

mukulgarga · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 22:02:09 pm

1p Tête-bêche of 3 - SG 28b
Had to fight tough for this but was worthwhile

tonymacg · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 00:47:19 am

I know how hard you had to fight - I was after it, too :lol:

mukulgarga · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 00:50:25 am

tonymacg wrote:

I know how hard you had to fight - I was after it, too :lol:

Really ??

Timbres · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 00:56:53 am

mukulgarga wrote:

tonymacg wrote:

I know how hard you had to fight - I was after it, too :lol:

Really ??

Since you have 3 of them, maybe you could cut one off and give it to poor Tony. :shock:

tonymacg · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 01:16:20 am

I was being greedy :oops:

mukulgarga · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 02:14:18 am

Timbres wrote:

mukulgarga wrote:

tonymacg wrote:

I know how hard you had to fight - I was after it, too :lol:

Really ??

Since you have 3 of them, maybe you could cut one off and give it to poor Tony. :shock:

this person TONY is afterall no that poor.

I have heard that a guy in Australia hordes almost half the stamps printed in Indian Feudatory states. I am still wondering who he is!!! :lol:

birder · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 03:12:08 am

Timbres wrote:

Since you have 3 of them, maybe you could cut one off and give it to poor Tony. :shock:

As it is, One of the three stamps is upside down. I am sure you can spare that one as it is of no apparent use to you... :lol:

birder · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 03:19:25 am

Timbres wrote:

Since you have 3 of them, maybe you could cut one off and give it to poor Tony. :shock:

The first of the three stamps is upside down anyway. Appears to be a misprint. That is the one you can cut and give to our Dear Tony for his collection. :lol:

birder · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 03:27:41 am

I have a "pseudo tete beche" set of two pairs.I have always believed it is genuine.

birder · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 03:31:30 am

...and some more from my collection.

birder · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 03:35:44 am

..and the next two images are specially for Ikanek

birder · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 03:38:09 am

tonymacg wrote:

I was being greedy :oops:

Zabardast.... Very very impressive Tony...

peterh · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 04:09:08 am

tonymacg wrote:

As Bertie Wooster often remarked to Jeeves, Rem acu tetigisti, Maturin :lol:

And on the subject of risk, has anyone else noticed the second stamp from the left on the bottom row of this eBay lot?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120895341252

The seller, melbournestamps, has some other items listed which all appear OK, but that stamp worries me. It looks a bit too like the dubious items I posted earlier.

I'm not entirely sure about the 1 Anna brown next to the SG 10, either.

Tony - both of these look like forgeries to me.

domburd · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 04:19:46 am

Just in case Tony thinks I really am a Hyderabad-centric philistine

I'd better put up something from his revered Barwani. SG24, I think. The paper's certainly got a faint glaze to it though the paper itself doesn't appear that thick as indicated in the catalogue.

Also, as Bamra was a topic recently here's a few bits and pieces...

SG4, positions 14-15/24-25 from the setting,

SG6, positions 21-23, and finally

SG10 from setting VIIb

domburd · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 04:39:36 am

Just wondering if there's any Poonch specialists out there who could help accurately identify this. Poonch is not a state I've ever really looked at - just too many paper shades to get my addled mind around, and most of those I do have seem to fall between two or more listings in the catalogue! Picked this up recently at the local stamp market from a vendor who was desperate to get it off his hands. The paper is one of the laid batonné types with the batonné lines about an inch or so apart. It is also noticeably toned though whether this was as it was when printed or is something that has happened to it over time is not clear. There is also a slight greenish quality to the paper, more apparent from the back. If anyone has any ideas whereabouts in the catalogue it comes I would be glad to know.

aethelwulf · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 04:43:45 am

tonymacg wrote:

Ravind2, I've been at it for 50 years

And that's only in this incarnation.

I haven't let this thread 'turn' me to the 'dark side' yet, I certainly have enough collecting interests pulling me in a half-dozen directions already, but I do keep an eye out for things in junk boxes or "sellers other items" on eBay--some dim people file things in strange places, or forget to change the category when they're listing items from here and there. There's been one totally out of place thing coming up in searches I do, a Leeward Islands stamp when I search for Cambodia or some similar silly mixup.

So here's a small cover I got for not a lot, (about 10 quid). Maybe I should stick to what I know. Was it a fair price or is this closer to the 'common as muck' end of the scale? (Anyways, I picked up another, totally unrelated item, at the same time from the seller at a great price, so it balances out regardless).

Described as "Jammu & Kashmir 1878-79 1 1/2a on cover, Heigra"

tonymacg · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:16:17 am

mukulgarga wrote:

I have heard that a guy in Australia hordes almost half the stamps printed in Indian Feudatory states. I am still wondering who he is!!! :lol:

Well, judging by the number of 'Sorry, you didn't win ...' notices I've been getting every morning from eBay, my position is slipping ... :lol:

tonymacg · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:20:04 am

birder wrote:

I have a "pseudo tete beche" set of two pairs.I have always believed it is genuine.

They look quite OK to me, Birder. There are some very nasty forgeries of Charkhari out there, like this 'imperf between pair'

but they usually seem to be much more nicely presented.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:45:45 am

And Domburd, that is indeed a Barwani SG 24. The only other possibility would have been SG 7 - also a ¼ Anna on glazed paper, perf 7 - but once you see them side by side, you can't mistake them. This is SG 7:

SG 24-25 was an interesting pair, by the way. It appeared just as Barwani started producing postcards. The ½ Anna plate was taken apart, and later reassembled, for the first time, to provide a cliché to print the cards.

And what can I say about the Bamra? Very nice stuff indeed. I don't have any multiples of the first type - always fight shy of it, because of all the reprints. As soon as I have the time, I'm going to go back to that Bamra Web site, and thoroughly check through my accumulation of first types I've put aside as probably bad.

Poonch: the range of papers is slightly eye-glazing, but big blocks like yours are the perfect demonstration of why it's so popular. This is true Ugly Country! The identity of your block is a bit harder. It seems to belong to the middle, Yellow Paper Period, perhaps group (f) - yellow laid bâtonné - or (g), if the paper is thickish. As I recall, genuine but unlisted types may be remainders. The best place to look for more information about it would be http://poonchstamps.com/, and enter 'kahuta'. If that doesn't help, I can put you in touch with a Poonch specialist, who might be able to do something for you.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:47:41 am

peterh wrote:

tonymacg wrote:

As Bertie Wooster often remarked to Jeeves, Rem acu tetigisti, Maturin :lol:

And on the subject of risk, has anyone else noticed the second stamp from the left on the bottom row of this eBay lot?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120895341252

The seller, melbournestamps, has some other items listed which all appear OK, but that stamp worries me. It looks a bit too like the dubious items I posted earlier.

I'm not entirely sure about the 1 Anna brown next to the SG 10, either.

Tony - both of these look like forgeries to me.

It's suggestive, isn't it, that these seem to be emerging now. Or have they been around for a while, and we haven't noticed them?

tonymacg · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:04:02 am

aethelwulf wrote:

tonymacg wrote:

Ravind2, I've been at it for 50 years

And that's only in this incarnation.

I haven't let this thread 'turn' me to the 'dark side' yet, I certainly have enough collecting interests pulling me in a half-dozen directions already, but I do keep an eye out for things in junk boxes or "sellers other items" on eBay--some dim people file things in strange places, or forget to change the category when they're listing items from here and there. There's been one totally out of place thing coming up in searches I do, a Leeward Islands stamp when I search for Cambodia or some similar silly mixup.

So here's a small cover I got for not a lot, (about 10 quid). Maybe I should stick to what I know. Was it a fair price or is this closer to the 'common as muck' end of the scale? (Anyways, I picked up another, totally unrelated item, at the same time from the seller at a great price, so it balances out regardless).

Described as "Jammu & Kashmir 1878-79 1 1/2a on cover, Heigra"

Aethelwulf, as far as I can see (and I saw the listing, too

) perfectly genuine, and worth every p of the £10. If you don't mind the real and serious threat of being sucked into UglyWorld, you could visit http://www.kashmirstamps.ca/index.html, and check under the New Rectangulars. Then, if you any shreds of sanity left, you could look through Postal Markings - Chronology - Native Markings for the cancellations

That should provide hours of harmless amusement.

I'd strongly recommend averting your eyes from Domburd's block of Poonch, though. Gaze too long on its siren charms, and it will draw you onto the rocks of the Kashmir region for sure :lol:

birder · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 13:00:32 pm

The cruel Queen Didda Rani of Kashmir ( she killed her sons, brothers and nephews after letting them sit on the throne for a short period).

aethelwulf · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 14:24:02 pm

Thanks Tony for the info on the Kashmir. Given that the title of the lot didn't have a mis-spelling, thus would be picked up in a search, I thought it might not 'slip past' interested parties, so I put in a nominal bid--I could have spent the same amount on Lotto tickets and had nothing to show for it after.

As I've discovered with China material on eBay, it seems it doesn't matter where an item is listed--sellers can and do put postal history in the publications category for instance--people will find it. If only junk boxes at a bourse had a search engine. "Is there an app for that?" :lol:

birder wrote:

The cruel Queen Didda Rani of Kashmir ( she killed her sons, brothers and nephews after letting them sit on the throne for a short period).

Maybe she got annoyed by the kids fighting and shouting "my turn, my turn!...Mummm, they won't share."

Royal power is a nasty profession to find oneself in a lot of parts of the world.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 15:19:19 pm

The rulers of Kashmir certainly didn't have a monopoly on beasting beastly to the relatives. I remember, Aethelwulf, that new rulers of Byzantium had a wizard wheeze for dealing with newly redundant members of the royal family. They would hold them, eyes open, over a vat of boiling vinegar, and then send them on their way, with a white stick.

Incidentally, when you look at that Jammu & Kashmir cover, offer up a prayer of thanks to Sir David Masson. He was most likely responsible for saving the cover, and many others from Jammu & Kashmir. A great philatelist, and a man who recognised the importance of postal history long before many others did.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2012 18:20:14 pm

Getting back to Poonch for a moment, there are some nice larger blocks and tête-bêche pairs coming up for auction on the 29 April at Essex Stamp Auctions http://www.essexstampauctions.com.


*Click For Our Newest Issues*	*Click for our Current Auction*	Internet Auctions-Buy & Sell Stamps	Melbourne 2013 - May 10-15

Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum

Banging the drum for the Uglies

Who is online