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I strongly agree and would be thrilled if we could begin putting together a Wiki of each state much like what the KGV thread has been doing with their many varieties of reds.

State the Gibbons number and then scan in a full blown example (whoever has it). Where there are uncatalogued ones, scan them in too and assign a variation number to them. Who knows; maybe Stanley G will be coming to us!

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"Making money is a hobby that will complement any other hobbies you have, beautifully." - Scott Alexander
I collect Souvenir Sheets postally used on cover, WW used stamps up to 1957 except everything of Brasil and Argentina.

Is there a way to save this pdf of the auction for future reference? I assume they will take this down after some time. This would be a great reference for a novice like me, to compare what I have with an actual reference...

Ravi

Mad Stampede again at stampedia auctions. Indian Fed Lots went for more than 100% of cat . One gentlemen seems to be after all the lots.
Seems to be in a lot of hurry to put together a Gartner type collection

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

It is a PDF so if you move your mouse near the bottom of the save you'll see a toolbar appear (assuming you are using Windows and a recent version of Adobe Reader) and if you click on the little "disk" you can save it to your harddrive. I have already stashed it away on my server.

-Jason

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Thanks for that input Timbres, and to Mukulgarga too. An Ugly Wiki would be a very big job indeed. I feel slightly faint just thinking about the Barwani bit - and it accounts for less than one of the 35 pages in Gibbons There are enough unlisted items from Barwani (I have three that deserve full number status already, and there are likely several more) to make just that listing interesting.

Still, if many others would find it useful, and yet others would be prepared to contribute, I guess it could be done.

Talking of Gibbons, if we banged the drum loudly enough, I think they'd hear. Dr Philip Kinns of Gibbons is the most trusted name in Ugly philately. His signature on a clear certificate



is good enough for me.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony, back in the late 1930s and in the 1940s, L.E. Dawson published three articles in the Philatelic Journal of India about the large Sarkari overprints and still provide the benchmark for identifying the good apples from the rotten. Two of the articles appeared thus: May 1939 (Vol XLIII, No. 5) and July 1946 (Vol L, No. 6). As usual I'm away working and don't have the info on the third article to hand, but these two articles are also illustrated. I think I still have your email address so I should be able to send you a pdf of at least one of these which is lurking somewhere on the hard-drive of this laptop. Will see what I have once I've done my day at the coal face.

Regards

Dominic

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I believe there is another world waiting for us, Sixsmith. A better world.

I'd be most grateful for copies of anything you have Dominic. My expectations for my overprints are so low, any genuine overprint would be a pleasant surprise.

By the way, wouldn't it have been nice to have been old enough to attend, and to have had more than pocket money to spend at, the Dawson sale?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Funny you should say that. I finally tracked down a copy of the Dawson sale and proceeded to spend many hours thinking which lots I would have bought. Took me back to the first auction I ever attended, the first of the Couvreur sales when I was fifteen. I'd saved up every scrap of money I could lay my hands on and was rewarded with a small inexpensive lot of Travancore-Cochin (though I still remember having to ask my Dad to stump up the extra couple of quid to pay the tax on it!). I think it's that moment that sealed my fate as a philatelist. Haven't looked back since.

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I believe there is another world waiting for us, Sixsmith. A better world.

I think my first serious Indian States auction was the Haverbeck sale. I stretched every nerve and muscle to buy a sheet of 12 of Barwani SG 18. I still have it - a slim connection to the Golden Days.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Worked perfectly - thanks.

Domburd,

Why not post that PDF here for all of us to see?

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"Making money is a hobby that will complement any other hobbies you have, beautifully." - Scott Alexander
I collect Souvenir Sheets postally used on cover, WW used stamps up to 1957 except everything of Brasil and Argentina.

I've just had one of those exchanges on eBay that restore one's faith in humanity

I came across this Bhopal item: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170838595385



The seller, mrgranby, described it as 'INDIA -STATES - BHOPAL - Probably a fake?' I was quite sure it was really perfectly alright. I emailed him: "I believe this is OK - the embossing may be missing or too faint to register - and it is SG 18." He replied a little while ago: "Many thanks for that - there is some embossing visible - I just tend to assume anything I don't really know about is fake to err on the side of safety."

Sadly, SG 18 is only a £5 job. mrgranby deserves much better

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony,I am being offered this block of Jasdan SG4 (I think!! as the colour doesn't match) at $133 in a private deal. Is it worth the amount?

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

Some more comments on that Gaertner lot. I can't see them ever shifting it as a whole, and the apparent rarities need certificates:

Bamra - 1st issue are all reprints.
SG 13a possibly faked?

Barwani - stamp identified as SG 2 is misidentified. SG 35 aB looks wrong to me.

Bhopal - SG 24 is a reprint, SG 50 looks cut down from a perforated stamp, SG 88 is the wrong stamp (should be 1 rupee but the stamp pictured is the quarter-anna).

SG 99 - impossible to authenticate?

Bundi SG 1 - needs a certificate. SG 35 and 36 misidentified.

Charkhari SG 1 looks wrong to me. SG 56 needs a certificate.

Cochin SG 22 misidentified. SG 85c looks like cleaned fiscal. O70 misidentified.

Duttia SG 4, 5 and 7 ? forgeries - would need certificates.

Jaipur SG 31 looks like a forgery.

As domburd stated, most of those early Hyderabad Sarkari overprints look wrong.

Needs an expert to comment on the Jammu and Kashmir.

I ran out of steam after that...

That looks like it's probably an SG 4. It was quite a large printing for Jasdan, and the colour does vary a bit.

At $133, it's no bargain: it's a pretty full price. These sheets do come up for sale from time to time, so this wouldn't be your last chance to acquire one. It's really your choice. Wait, and you might find one a bit cheaper - but wait too long, and the price might go past $133

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Is it worth buying stuff from StanleyGibbons directly? I realize that it's safer that way, for someone like me in that I won't get fooled. But most of the Indian States items seem to be priced at full catalogue prices.

Timbres, it's a huge file in high resolution And as Peterh has pointed out, there are quite a few fakes and reprints, and items that would need confirmation via a certificate, included. Unfortunately, it isn't necessarily a reliable guide to all the Indian States stamps.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

You've hit the nail on the head, I'm afraid. Gibbons' items should have passed scrutiny by Philip Kinns, and so they will be reliable. On the other hand, you'll pay full Gibbons prices for that peace of mind.

With prices for the Indian States generally on the rise, taking the medium term view, you probably won't lose out too badly buying from Gibbons at current price levels. I happily buy from Gibbons, when they have something of interest to me You can find cheaper elsewhere sometimes, but as the Gärtner auction demonstrates, you can't trust everybody to get the identifications right all the time.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thanks Tony - I think you put it very succinctly. On the one hand, Since I am not as experienced as you or some other folks on this thread, I am leery of spending more than 50/100 bucks on one item on sites like eBay etc. On the other hand, this means I miss out on great deals/ bargains. I think atleast for the relatively big ticket items, I should stick to SG. Or maybe I should burn my hands on some transactions and gain experience .

Ravind2, we all get caught out buying on eBay from time to time. I suppose it's part of the learning experience But don't spend big money there until you're quite confident about what you're buying; otherwise, stick to expensive items with BPA certificates. If there's anything that really interests you, I'll be happy to advise if I can - or at least warn you that I'm already bidding on it too. (If I'm not yet bidding, I won't bid myself.)

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

This is very kind of you tony . I sincerely appreciate this.
For example, I see this item from Bundi bid starting at $50, and am not 100% sure if this is genuine. The same/similar item on Stanley Gibbons is retailing at GBP85.

http://s1178.photobucket.com/albums/x366/ravind2/Bundi/

Following on from Peterh's exhaustive comments on the Gärtner auction lot, my impression from looking over it was that many of the rarities are misidentified or fakes/reprints, and that there isn't much else of above average quality. There are plenty of singles of ordinary items, but very few blocks or sheets, or other things that would raise the collection above the average.

More specifically, I had a good look at the Barwani. As Peter says, there are problems with some of the key items. The Ranjitsingh 4 Annas are misidentified, and the star SG 35aB isn't. It's an SG 35A, cat. £3.75, not £475.

Jammu & Kashmir looks like a real trap. I found these problems:
SG 7: Almost certainly a fake
SG 15: Probable fake
SG 17: Very doubtful
SG 32, 37: Reprints
SG 41: Fake
SG 69a, 69b: Very doubtful
SG 89: Reprint
SG 100, 100a: Both fakes (genuine cat. £1425)
and there are more.

This seems to be a systemic problem with the lot.

I can't see an Indian States collector being interested in it, even if there was one with that sort of money to throw around. It would need a very big dealer to be prepared to spend €130,000+ to buy the lot for stock, and it would produce a serious loss on resale. The lot might sell, if it was broken down into individual State lots, but as it is ...

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Ravind, I can't be sure if the Bundi sheet is genuine. AFAIK, there aren't any fakes going around as good as that, so it's probably OK.

Having said that, there seem to be a lot of sheets of later Bundi, and Bundi overprinted for Rajasthan, on the market at the moment. This makes me wonder: Where are they all coming from? Perhaps some large dealer is dumping stock, or perhaps they come from some more dubious source.

So, if that one appeals to you, you could certainly offer $50 for it. How much higher you go, would depend on how badly you want it.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thanks Tony - also I am perfectly ok if you choose to bid on this or any other item that I may ask advice on. That will also be a learning experience for me

All this is coming from geoffrey flack's store. I have seen this guy put all his items on ebay. I was a regular visitor to geoffrey's website and i know for sure most of the items are from his store.

Psphani, you could well be right. All this Bundi and Rajasthan material is quite generic. None of it is distinctive enough to be able to state definitely where it comes from.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thank You..

Hi Timbres

Just to say that, not being the most computer literate person in the world, I have no clue as to how to get a pdf up on Stampboards. I'm more than happy to send a copy to you, or anyone else for that matter, as an attachment via email if you let me know the address.

Dominic (domburd at gmail dot com)

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I believe there is another world waiting for us, Sixsmith. A better world.

Just in case there's any interest, I've started a Barwani Wiki thread down in the Wiki forum.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

So you had to start with Barwani.

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

What else? I'm starting with the cream of the Uglies, and working backwards

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Excellent TonyMacq! Great start. I took a look and I'm certain that as the thread grows with respective Wikis for each India state, it will get tons of hits from those who do not have all the references, but do have a small collection of India states started. I'm sure it will also spike the interest of those who have avoided the uglies up till now.

Timbres

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"Making money is a hobby that will complement any other hobbies you have, beautifully." - Scott Alexander
I collect Souvenir Sheets postally used on cover, WW used stamps up to 1957 except everything of Brasil and Argentina.

Thanks, Timbres! I can do one or two of the other States, but I'll have to rely on others to tackle some of the difficult ones, like Cochin. And who wants to do Dungarpur?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thanks tony. Its quite tough to identify the different perf/shades in Barwani for immature collectors like me. This will help us all. Hope someone or maybe you start a thread on Charkhari/Datia also. Charkhari mainly because budding collectors still get fooled by the forgeries and it would be good for us to know the minute pointers that differentiate a forged one from the original. Datia again is little tough to identify with the roulette/shades.

Great start so far Tony on Barwani and nice to see the great examples. Did you skip SG15? You mention it when discussing I believe SG12, but then show SG 14 and 16. (I realize it takes a lot of time and you have more to do)

Everyone should probably leave out commentary on the wiki until he is done as it will be interspliced in the middle (making kind of an ugly thread - hahaha... get the pun?)

-Jason

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Development Owner of - [*] Stamp Image Bursting Application - http://www.drakeserver.com/
[*] Stamp Album Page Generator - http://code.google.com/p/stamp-pagegen/ - [*] Stamp Web Editor

Yes, I for one AGREE wholeheartedly that the ones able to contribute to the WIKI thread should be limited. It must not be a chat thread.

As different people volunteer to be the lead on a specific state, they should be the ones who assign who can contribute images and commentary to their WIKI thread. Otherwise, it will not perform the function as intended.

A corollary thread can be set up for commentary/images/questions and when something is presented that should be included on the WIKI, it can be.

I believe this is what has been done with the KGV Wiki.

Is this something a MOD has to set up?

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"Making money is a hobby that will complement any other hobbies you have, beautifully." - Scott Alexander
I collect Souvenir Sheets postally used on cover, WW used stamps up to 1957 except everything of Brasil and Argentina.

Jason, SG 15 is there, but out of sequence. I added it after SG 10 and the unlisted 1 Anna on laid paper. It was one of those impossible choices: Do I put in strict Gibbons sequence? Or do I put it with the ordinary 1 Anna, with which it could be confused? In the end, I decided to go the latter way.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Psphani, there are many experienced collectors/dealers who trip up over some Barwani stamps: SG 8 and 9, and the 1927 era 4 Annas come to mind. I hope the Barwani Wiki will help a little to clarify the stamps, and - who knows? - even stir up some interest in them

I'd hesitate to do Charkhari or Duttia, because my collections are almost entirely deficient in the first issues. The best I could do would be to make a start, to which someone else who has the stamps might add. I have discussed some of the Charkhari forgeries here: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13744&p=2745913 If I can add anything to that, I'll be happy to do so.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony. Can you kindly provide the link to the Wiki thread for Barwani?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony - I love the Barwani wiki. Amazing resource...Keep it coming. I just wish I could contribute like this .

With the end of the Ranjit Printing Press printings, Barwani becomes a bit bland, I'm afraid.

The Times of India Press made nine printings (or settings), although Gibbons telescopes them down into two groups. Still, collecting the later, post-1931, issues is pretty much a matter of ticking off the stamps against the checklist - Gibbons or specialised. It doesn't hold the same interest for me.

There's only one real mystery, or maybe two. For the first printing from the refurbished Ranjitsingh type plates (SG 36A-42A), the Times of India used plates composed of four identical clichés from the original plates. For example, the 4 Anna plate consisted of four Cliché 4s from the original plate:



There's never been any explanation for why or how, but for later printings, they used all four of the original clichés. There's also no explanation for SG 43



Why did the printers use the Revenue plate normally printed in red for this printing? Was it a mistake or deliberate?

This hardly compares with the riches of the era before 1932, though

The Barwani authorities reissued the Ranjitsingh type stamps during the reign of his son, Devi Singh, at least in part for the benefit of collectors. However, there isn't the slightest doubt they were also genuinely, commercially used for postage. Here is that SG 42A used from Rajpur village in 1936:





The whole set had a face value of 7¾ Annas - just a few cents. Not major-league exploitation

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

My first post ever to this Indian thread, so hope I'm not out of line here. The Sirmoor below are not listed in Scott. But Gibbons Part I had the answer; they are variations of SG #3-4, and, perhaps fakes of the reprints.



Then came a fascinating explanation. Gibbons says, "...These were originally made as reprints, about 1891, to supply collectors, but there being very little demand for them, they were put into use. The design was copied (including the perforations) from an illustration in a dealer's catalog."

Well, it's only taken you a little over 7100 posts to get here, Doug, so better late than never

Your stamps look quite OK, though these 'reprints' have been faked - proving that nothing is sacred to the forgers. As you'll have seen from Gibbons, not much value, unfortunately.

Your used stamp has a typical CTO cancellation. These stamps certainly were used for postage, but they're less common with obviously postal cancellations. I have about three times as many CTOs as postally used of the yellow-green, twice as many for the blue-green, and four times as many for the blue.

As you say, the back story to these stamps is a delight. It's one of those stories that make the Uglies so much fun to collect. There's another nice story about Sirmoor, too. The State Post Office was very much alive to the commercial possibilities of its stamps. The State postmen were under strict instructions to bring back the used stamps from every letter they delivered. Consequently, covers are extremely rare - and those that do still exist are almost exclusively covers sent to addresses outside Sirmoor, where the State couldn't claw back the used stamps On the other hand, used stamps are far more abundant than might be expected for a moderately-sized State in the lower Himalayas.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Curtis Gidding had written some nice articles on Sirmoor postage stamps. I can try to locate those.

Also, Tony appears to have moved to the corpse-city without revealing the identity or the (mis)deeds of the masked philatelist...

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http://princelystatecoins.wordpress.com
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I wasn't aware of the Curtis Gidding articles, Birder. I do hope you can find and post them.

Nice to see another reader of Lovecraft here. Cthulhu seemed rather appropriate; he (it?) was surely the ugliest of Lovecraft's creations

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

A two page article on Sirmoor stamps by Curtis Gidding is available for USD 0.30 at pbbooks http://pbbooks.com/tearshtsbr.htm

Some other nice articles are also available there.

The article can be read for free on..
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... sjLbZSO4yw


..also..I had once read some issues of "Weird Tales"...never liked Cthulhu though..

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http://oldindiacoins.wordpress.com

Birder and others, there is a hidden resource on http://www.pbbooks.com and few of our members know it's there.

There are lists of Post Offices of a good many Commonwealth members, some with years of operation, plus longitude and latitude. I don't know about the accuracy or completeness.

Here's the URL for the New Zealand list:
http://www.pbbooks.com/cr391.htm

and the beginning of "A" entries:
Adam's Flat 46s07 169e49
Adelaide Road - Wellington
Akaroa 4 43s48 172e58
Albany Street AS
Alexandra South 45s15 169e24
Amberley 43s10 172e44
Anaroa 1906
Annat 43s22 171e59
Aorere 1904 40342 172e35

Any comment on the first stamp please?

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Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

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