GB EDVII £1 Green/10sh Ultramarine - are these MUH/UM?

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 09:25:18 am

Update to my recent listings that proved to have been mounted when I thought they were U/M.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=8785

I have just received the replacements from the dealer that I bought them from.

lisamidge · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:42:38 am

Nice to have the update, but you forgot to add how much they are and payment options, postage, ect ect. :wink:

Lisa

ozstamps · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:09:09 am

Peterd123 wrote:

Update to my recent listings that proved to have been mounted when I thought they were U/M.

I have just received the replacements from the dealer that I bought them from.

Peter .. please let me get this clear in my head.

This board saved you £1000s by pointing out the "MUH" gems you joyfully paid silly money for, and offered for sale here, were either regummed or hinged.

So you send them back to the seller, whomever that was (I have no idea, and no real interest) and get as a replacement a very clearly crudely re-gummed or "sweated" 10/- KEVII above, with readily apparent rust spots, and an apparent black inclusion on the face - and you seem blissfully happy with that replacement?

I posted before, that this insanity of folks paying many times hinged prices, for high values 100 years old is a disaster waiting to happen down the track, when the buyers appear to have no absolutely clue as to what they are buying.

If a stamp is £250 light hinged, only a dill pays £1,000 for it after someone spends 10 quid on it, and has it re-gummed or sweats a hinge off it. And presumably trousers the 750 quid extra profit the naive buyer forks over.

For decades I have BEGGED collectors to have some sense, and simply buy HINGED in the first place on such items. You will not only save a fortune, but have stamps very readily saleable down the track. :idea:

Your "replacement" stamp seems to illustrate that wisdom of that advice perfectly I'd say.

If you cannot see at a glance - as I can - that this 10/- is a total dog, I really would urge you to abandon buying 'MUH' as you will be many £1000s the poorer when you sell is my honest guess.

If you can't see this is a 3rd grade roughie, presumably the same applies to other purchases you are happy with?

You are of course free to spend your money on whatever like. You can light cigars with £50 notes if you wish.

Now if this thread is to SELL these gems, please comply with the clear forum rules, and ask a price for them - in the meantime I'll move this, as it does not comply with the Selling Forum rules.

But in the interim, it **MAY** serve as a useful tutorial to some, of the total folly of paying silly money for "MUH" high value stamps 100 years old, that have in reality, previously been hinged.

And please do not take my word for the state of this stamp. After all, what would I know.

Mail it Registered to Rushstamps in the UK, or someone just as respected and experienced, who also knows their stuff, and see if they mail your their published buying price cheque for fine MUH grade..

I'll bet my house they do NOT!

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that is the purpose of this board - to educate and assist collectors. Had you not came across us, you might have blissfully spent many £1,000s more on such mis-described junk, and better to learn sooner rather than later I guess, when you CAN still get a full refund?

Glen

The Pom · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:18:41 am

Unlike Glen, I would be interested to find out who the dealer is, so I can make a point of avoiding them.

That 10/- Blue is a shocker!

Cheers
Chris

iomoon · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:40:38 am

I'd hazard an opinion that the 10/- was also re-gummed before being hinged.

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 20:01:10 pm

Thanks for your help, I was happy with this until now. I will be glad when this is sorted out. I thought the brown marks were natural for the age and that the gum looked quite good.

I'm going to stick to line engraved in future (used) I will be taking this one back again. Plus the £1 does have a couple of short perfs. And it was sold as superb.

I agree with you, without the experience it would be wise to steer clear of U/M.

Thanks again for your help.

Regards

Pete

lisamidge · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 20:07:42 pm

Post subject: Lack of experience. :?:

If you are going to quote someone, you might want to add your view instead of just copying what Glen said

Who has the lack of experience here :?:

Well that was the post subject on your last reply Peterd123.

Could we get you to delve further and give a repsonse.....

ewen s · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 20:09:30 pm

Peterd123 wrote:

Thanks for your help, I was happy with this until now. I will be glad when this is sorted out. I thought the brown marks were natural for the age and that the gum looked quite good. I'm going to stick to line engraved in future (used) I will be taking this one back again. Plus the £1 does have a couple of short perfs. And it was sold as superb. I agree with you, without the experience it would be wise to steer clear of U/M.
Thanks again for your help.
Regards
Pete

[/quote]

Lisa,

Peter typed it into the message.

Regards,

Ewen

lisamidge · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 20:13:55 pm

I see those new glasses I got do not help.... :oops:

Never thought to look there.. :roll:

GlenStephens · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 20:26:13 pm

Lisa .. Peter got the 'quote' feature a tad tangled up .. his unedited comments are above.

Seems like this 'superb MUH gem' is going back once again.

.

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 20:47:46 pm

lisamidge wrote:

Post subject: Lack of experience. :?:

If you are going to quote someone, you might want to add your view instead of just copying what Glen said

Who has the lack of experience here :?:

Well that was the post subject on your last reply Peterd123.

Could we get you to delve further and give a repsonse.....

My lack of experience is what I meant.

Regards
Pete
.

lisamidge · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 20:48:04 pm

GlenStephens wrote:

Lisa
Seems like this 'superb MUH gem' is going back once again.

.

Yep, must be all that rain and damp conditions they have over there that causes toning, GOOD LUCK in finding one without it. :lol:

As Chris (Pom) has asked (Unlike Glen, I would be interested to find out who the dealer is, so I can make a point of avoiding them.

That 10/- Blue is a shocker!

Cheers
Chris

He should name the supplier and be sent a link to here...

"" NAME AND SHAME "" for supplying such dodgy material and from what I have read, been paid a good DEAL of money as well.

But that is just my opinion :wink:

Lisa

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 20:57:25 pm

lisamidge wrote:

GlenStephens wrote:

Lisa
Seems like this 'superb MUH gem' is going back once again.

.

Yep, must be all that rain and damp conditions they have over there that causes toning, GOOD LUCK in finding one without it. :lol:

As Chris (Pom) has asked (Unlike Glen, I would be interested to find out who the dealer is, so I can make a point of avoiding them.

That 10/- Blue is a shocker!

Cheers
Chris

He should name the supplier and be sent a link to here...

"" NAME AND SHAME "" for supplying such dodgy material and from what I have read, been paid a good of money as well.

But that is just my opinion :wink:

Lisa

Once I have sorted this mess out,then I will let you know who the dealer is.

What do you all think of the £1 Green? Should that go as well?

This is making me feel ill. Should have stuck to banks for investment.

These were my fisrt purchases to invest some money. I had no experience at all, and still not enough now.

Regards
Pete

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 21:01:08 pm

Peterd123 wrote:

lisamidge wrote:

GlenStephens wrote:

Lisa
Seems like this 'superb MUH gem' is going back once again.

.

Yep, must be all that rain and damp conditions they have over there that causes toning, GOOD LUCK in finding one without it. :lol:

As Chris (Pom) has asked (Unlike Glen, I would be interested to find out who the dealer is, so I can make a point of avoiding them.

That 10/- Blue is a shocker!

Cheers
Chris

He should name the supplier and be sent a link to here...

"" NAME AND SHAME "" for supplying such dodgy material and from what I have read, been paid a good of money as well.

But that is just my opinion :wink:

Lisa

Once I have sorted this mess out,then I will let you know who the dealer is.

What do you all think of the £1 Green? Should that go as well?

This is making me feel ill. Should have stuck to banks for investment.

These were my fisrt purchases to invest some money. I had no experience at all, and still not enough now.

Regards
Pete

Although if I name and shame him and he gets a link to this site.

Then that could turn nasty for me as he lives quite close. What do you think?

Regards
Pete

GlenStephens · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 21:15:35 pm

Peter the 10/- was so appallingly bad none of us needed to see the stamp to make a judgment it was a DOG.

The £1 is much harder to say without seeing it in the flesh.

My initial leaning is that the whitish patch where a hinge normally lives, is where I'd be bothered with, and I'd be taking a closer look at that under UV if I owned it. :idea:

I'll post here again some advice that I do hope SOME members have taken heed of by now.

And as for buying "MUH" 100 year old £1 stamps for "investment" when you do not know about condition ... . well, nuff sed

----------------

ozstamps wrote:

Good German regums are incredibly hard to pick, and 99% of collectors (and a decent chunk of dealers) cannot, which is why for 30 years I have urged folks to collect MLH pre war - or FU.

During my 30 years in stamp dealing, I have consistently said and typed this:

Anyone insisting on MUH for pre-war stamps from ANYWHERE has rocks in their head, and/or has far more money than sense.

Anyone who chooses to aim for the far earlier KGV era MUH has twice as many rocks, and half as much sense than the KGVI nuts.

And as for KEVII and QV "MUH" high value issues .. I will not even waste words commenting on those. :shock:

FACT - it is now over 70 years ago since the initial KGVI stamps were issued.

FACT - no-one then collected single stamps then without hinging them. It was in fact impossible to do.

FACT - superb regumming in Germany costs a few $$s a stamp.

FACT - 99% of collectors (and more than 50% of "dealers") would not be able to pick a good German regum if it jumped up and bit them on the posterior.

FACT - When you buy LIGHT hinged not only can you realistically hope to get complete, but in the case of Australia will cost you one THIRD as much.

FACT - Whenever you or your family sell a fresh MLH set, the dealer will value it as a fresh MLH set. There will be likely be an actual profit involved. The owners of 99.99999% of "MUH" collections being sold of pre-war era are given the great news they have a ton of re-gums among them. And lose their shirt. If you want to leave that legacy to your family - it is a free world of course.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

A really SMART line in the sand is to decide for QE2 era (or Post War if you prefer) collect MUH as they are pretty available and are generally not a great deal dearer than LH. Indeed from 70s on, there is essentially no premium for MUH.

Pre-QE2 or pre-war only collect HINGED or used.

Hundreds of clients over the years have thanked me for this advice, as it ensure collecting is more doable re completion, and certainly far more affordable.

Clearly I make MORE money selling MUH pre-war of course, and this advice is against my best fiscal interests, but it is what I believe.

I've had HUNDREDS of folks selling me stamps that have been sold to them as "MUH" by shonk dealers or the army of fly-by-nighters on ebay etc - at 3 or 4 times the hinged price. :twisted:

Now we are in an era where dealers are paying over $25,000 for single MUH Roos, those hinged and VFU copies of them look awful good policy to those who have decided to follow my advice.

Glen

.

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 21:25:20 pm

Thanks.

I do have UV lamp although not entirely sure how to use it.

When I looked at it with the lamp I could not see anything. But was not in total darkness at the time.

I will try and get a refund this time, as he did mention that he would if he could not replace them.

Regards
Pete

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 21:57:07 pm

GlenStephens wrote:

Peter the 10/- was so appallingly bad none of us needed to see the stamp to make a judgment it was a DOG.

The £1 is much harder to say without seeing it in the flesh.

My initial leaning is that the whitish patch where a hinge normally lives, is where I'd be bothered with, and I'd be taking a closer look at that under UV if I owned it. :idea:

I'll post here again some advice that I do hope SOME members have taken heed of by now.

And as for buying "MUH" 100 year old £1 stamps for "investment" when you do not know about condition ... . well, nuff sed

----------------

ozstamps wrote:

Good German regums are incredibly hard to pick, and 99% of collectors (and a decent chunk of dealers) cannot, which is why for 30 years I have urged folks to collect MLH pre war - or FU.

During my 30 years in stamp dealing, I have consistently said and typed this:

Anyone insisting on MUH for pre-war stamps from ANYWHERE has rocks in their head, and/or has far more money than sense.

Anyone who chooses to aim for the far earlier KGV era MUH has twice as many rocks, and half as much sense than the KGVI nuts.

And as for KEVII and QV "MUH" high value issues .. I will not even waste words commenting on those. :shock:

FACT - it is now over 70 years ago since the initial KGVI stamps were issued.

FACT - no-one then collected single stamps then without hinging them. It was in fact impossible to do.

FACT - superb regumming in Germany costs a few $$s a stamp.

FACT - 99% of collectors (and more than 50% of "dealers") would not be able to pick a good German regum if it jumped up and bit them on the posterior.

FACT - When you buy LIGHT hinged not only can you realistically hope to get complete, but in the case of Australia will cost you one THIRD as much.

FACT - Whenever you or your family sell a fresh MLH set, the dealer will value it as a fresh MLH set. There will be likely be an actual profit involved. The owners of 99.99999% of "MUH" collections being sold of pre-war era are given the great news they have a ton of re-gums among them. And lose their shirt. If you want to leave that legacy to your family - it is a free world of course.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

A really SMART line in the sand is to decide for QE2 era (or Post War if you prefer) collect MUH as they are pretty available and are generally not a great deal dearer than LH. Indeed from 70s on, there is essentially no premium for MUH.

Pre-QE2 or pre-war only collect HINGED or used.

Hundreds of clients over the years have thanked me for this advice, as it ensure collecting is more doable re completion, and certainly far more affordable.

Clearly I make MORE money selling MUH pre-war of course, and this advice is against my best fiscal interests, but it is what I believe.

I've had HUNDREDS of folks selling me stamps that have been sold to them as "MUH" by shonk dealers or the army of fly-by-nighters on ebay etc - at 3 or 4 times the hinged price. :twisted:

Now we are in an era where dealers are paying over $25,000 for single MUH Roos, those hinged and VFU copies of them look awful good policy to those who have decided to follow my advice.

Glen

.

Hi Glen, just got off the phone with the dealer. He said he would take them back agian. He also said he bought the £1 from Brian Bayford, I think is BB stamps.

He said he thought that was perfect. Funny he said nothing about the 10 shilling. He told me that I could go to another dealer and get another two from them, and to tell them that he will be paying for them.

Regards
Pete

GlenStephens · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 22:07:04 pm

Pete .. well if he is paying make sure you get verified MUH from a WELL KNOWN dealer who'll give you a receipt!

Why not phone Allan Grant from Rushstamps personally, who have about the best stock of this stuff pretty much, mention me and this board, and say you want a written receipt they are both perfect MUH original gum.

If he does not have it he will get it, and you'll get WHAT you are ordering at least.

At least he will be there in a year, 5 years and 10 years time if you have an issue with them. :idea:

.

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2008 22:11:35 pm

GlenStephens wrote:

Pete .. well if he is paying make sure you get verified MUH from a WELL KNOWN dealer who'll give you a receipt!

Why not phone Allan Grant from Rushstamps personally, who have about the best stock of this stuff pretty much, mention me and this board, and say you want a written receipt they are both perfect MUH original gum.

If he does not have it he will get it, and you'll get WHAT you are ordering at least.

At least he will be there in a year, 5 years and 10 years time if you have an issue with them. :idea:

.

Thanks for that, I will phone him ASAP
Regards
Pete

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2008 06:05:36 am

Peterd123 wrote:

GlenStephens wrote:

Pete .. well if he is paying make sure you get verified MUH from a WELL KNOWN dealer who'll give you a receipt!

Why not phone Allan Grant from Rushstamps personally, who have about the best stock of this stuff pretty much, mention me and this board, and say you want a written receipt they are both perfect MUH original gum.

If he does not have it he will get it, and you'll get WHAT you are ordering at least.

At least he will be there in a year, 5 years and 10 years time if you have an issue with them. :idea:

.

Thanks for that, I will phone him ASAP
Regards
Pete

The dealer who I bought them from has phoned me back today. He said that on Wednesday he will have quite a few of each, which I find hard to believe going by what I have seen so far, and that I can take my pick, or if i'm not happy with them, he mentioned about giving me my money back.

If I do take another two, then there will be no going back as I picked them. With my lack of experience, I'm going to try and hold out for my money back.

PS I have looked at the £1 Green in total darkness with the UV lamp, and could not see anything out of place. The gum looks uniform to me. But still not sure, after what I have seen on here.

Regards
Pete

PeterS · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2008 06:52:18 am

I have no experience with GB stamps but I would not consider a kangaroo high value, with the same perf problems as the 1 pound, to be a perfect specimen.

It would certainly be collectible (if a Kangaroo) but i would be expecting to pay a lower price for it.

If it was me in your circumstances I would be asking for my money back. It seems to me you are being set up for a fall by picking the stamps yourself, with no comeback later.

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2008 08:11:28 am

PeterS wrote:

I have no experience with GB stamps but I would not consider a kangaroo high value, with the same perf problems as the 1 pound, to be a perfect specimen. It would certainly be collectible (if a Kangaroo) but i would be expecting to pay a lower price for it.

If it was me in your circumstances I would be asking for my money back. It seems to me you are being set up for a fall by picking the stamps yourself, with no comeback later.

I agree with you. Although he has not stated that I would not have a come back. But how could I? if I have picked them.

From what I have seen, I totally agree with what Glen has said about U/M of this age.

I don't trust my judgement enough on this subject area, so I am going to try and get my money back.

Regards
Pete
.

GlenStephens · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2008 17:48:41 pm

Peter, yes if you choose them, I am sure to cover himself,, the dealer would ask you to sign a receipt saying something like :

Received from .............. GB 10/- and £1 KEVII stamps as per attached photocopy, and as inspected by PeterD.

Signed ....................

Pretty tough to return them from that point on I'd say. :idea:

Glen

nuthin' fancy · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2008 18:33:22 pm

It just confirms that I made a wise choice about 25 years ago to collect used stamps.

ewen s · **Posted:** Tue Nov 18, 2008 19:31:36 pm

Peterd123 wrote:

I don't trust my judgement enough on this subject area, so I am going to try and get my money back.

Regards
Pete

Pete,

Please let us know how you got on. We all hope you got your money back OK. I, for one, definitely appreciate your honesty in these posts, and have learnt a lot. All the best.

Ewen

ScotsmanAbroad · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2008 01:08:33 am

Once again I've been surfing Stampboards for an hour and picked up several useful tips, had a boost to the confidence in my own knowledge, and now read the great discussion in this thread. As Mr Boggler has said before...Fan-bloody-tastic!

I'm sorry to hear about your dealer troubles, Pete, but if it's even a tiny consolation, your misfortune is a great educator for the rest of us!

For a long time I've been looking at distinctly shabby, allegedly fresh mint QV stamps on ebay, and assumed it was my lack of understanding about grading. Now, even if I know more about what to look for, I'll stick to fine used and mounted mint, if it's a bargain.

I can't agree more about Rushstamps, I first bought stamps from them when I was at school, and they are still firmly on my "trusted seller" list.

Good luck in getting things sorted out. Don.
.

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2008 01:31:22 am

ewen s wrote:

Peterd123 wrote:

I don't trust my judgement enough on this subject area, so I am going to try and get my money back.

Regards
Pete

Pete,

Please let us know how you got on. We all hope you got your money back OK. I, for one, definitely appreciate your honesty in these posts, and have learnt a lot. All the best.

Ewen

I should know more Wednesday. Will let you all know the outcome. These were my first purchases after getting stung on the Stock market. "Don't Laugh" I then thought that if you bought U/M you could not go wrong. How wrong was I?

Been into Elizabeth Errors and Penny Blacks since. Much less problematic and more interesting. Especially when you go into the history of the Penny Blacks.

As for honesty, I would not knowingly sell something as genuine/no faults/U/M if it was not. As I do not want a bad reputation, as I think you only have one.

Regards
Pete

PennyBlack1840 · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:22:18 am

Pete

I work for a central London Strand based dealer, you are only in Essex, bring them to us and we will have a look, ALSO

Brian Bayford is a trustworthy person and in fact a bigger GB dealer than Rushstamps, I know not who you bought these from, but the 10/- is utter rubbish quality if it was sold as U/M.

Peter

SimonDunkerley · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2008 13:36:37 pm

Realistically, the 10/- is about as bad as it gets - a genuine shocker! A very nice used one would be far preferable and worth considerably more than this stamp. It is not even a 'good' example of regumming.

The £1 whilst not as bad, does not look good and is certainly not superb by any measure.

As with all things, there is the good, the bad and the ugly.

However, in difference to Glen, there is actually a good market for MUH/MNH and there are genuine examples of these stamps as such. However, if you do not have the expertise to know what is right and what is not, then my advice is to either get advice from someone you know can trust and who knows them and can verify them, buy them on extension to get a formal opinion on the gum, or stay clear of such items.

It takes many years of experience to be able to determine with any confidence the genuiness or otherwise of gum; and many other factors involved in identifying and grading stamps. No different to most things in life.

It is reasonable to conclude that any dealer that has sold the 10/- as MUH either is either ignorant, or a shonk! And no points for guessing which is the more likely; and even more so given the history of this transaction as reported in the past.

It would be very interesting to find out who the seller was and exactly what prices were paid compared to what the real market is for superb MUH examples of these stamps ... superb stamps generally do not come cheaply and if indeed they looked cheap therein lies a significant part of the story...

Simon Dunkerley

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 21, 2008 02:44:55 am

PennyBlack1840 wrote:

Pete

I work for a central London Strand based dealer, you are only in Essex, bring them to us and we will have a look, ALSO

Brian Bayford is a trustworthy person and in fact a bigger GB dealer than Rushstamps, I know not who you bought these from, but the 10/- is utter rubbish quality if it was sold as U/M.

Peter

I feel like a lamb going to the slaughter. I took two different ones of him today. Mainly because I did not want a trade price refund. But I have looked at these very closely.

And cannot find anything wrong with them. But I'm sure someone might on here. "Fingers crossed they don't" He told me they are from Brian Bayford.

[/img]

[img][IMG]http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr84/sundance1958/10shlatesf102.jpg[/img]

[/img]

GlenStephens · **Posted:** Fri Nov 21, 2008 03:00:51 am

Peterd123 wrote:

I feel like a lamb going to the slaughter. I took two different ones of him today. Mainly because I did not want a trade price refund. But I have looked at these very closely.

And cannot find anything wrong with them. But I'm sure someone might on here. "Fingers crossed they don't" He told me they are from Brian Bayford.

I must say, if you are determined to buy sweated gum/regummed stamps, these are 2 rather well centred ones.

As long as you paid the hinged price, these may not be too bad a buy.

I see our tutorials have been a total and abject failure here.

viewtopic.php?p=352136

You see all those gum soaked perfs Peter????

I am not sure how often we need to pass this on but that means sweated/regummed.

The lower right corner of the £1 screams it out, as do several along the top where the hinge has likely been.

Many of the 10/- perf tips show the same deal.

When genuine MUH stamps have been torn apart from each other, you get fine hairs like this below on perf tips, NOT globs of gum. You'd slice your finger if you ran it acorss the top perfs.

Oh well, look on the bright side. You might have bought General Motors shares instead. and have been near CERTAIN to lose all your dough, and not just some of it. :idea:

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=GM&t=3m

The Pom · **Posted:** Fri Nov 21, 2008 05:43:47 am

I really think you're going to have to say "Enough is enough", and get your money back. The 10s is clearly regummed, and the £1 probably is too.

Look at the perf tips along the top edge of the stamps - they are dark, where the new gum has soaked into them, and as Glen says - not furry!

Look at the bottom of these 3 Roos - classic regum.

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 21, 2008 09:27:50 am

GlenStephens wrote:

Peterd123 wrote:

I feel like a lamb going to the slaughter. I took two different ones of him today. Mainly because I did not want a trade price refund. But I have looked at these very closely.

And cannot find anything wrong with them. But I'm sure someone might on here. "Fingers crossed they don't" He told me they are from Brian Bayford.

I must say, if you are determined to buy sweated gum/regummed stamps, these are 2 rather well centred ones.

As long as you paid the hinged price, these may not be too bad a buy.

I see our tutorials have been a total and abject failure here.

viewtopic.php?p=352136

You see all those gum soaked perfs Peter????

I am not sure how often we need to pass this on but that means sweated/regummed.

The lower right corner of the £1 screams it out, as do several along the top where the hinge has likely been.

Many of the 10/- perf tips show the same deal.

When genuine MUH stamps have been torn apart from each other, you get fine hairs like this below on perf tips, NOT globs of gum. You'd slice your finger if you ran it acorss the top perfs.

Oh well, look on the bright side. You might have bought General Motors shares instead. and have been near CERTAIN to lose all your dough, and not just some of it. :idea:

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=GM&t=3m

Can you tell me what scanner you are using and the settings to get this fine detail of your stamp?

Regards
Pete

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 21, 2008 09:50:44 am

[quote="The Pom"]I really think you're going to have to say "Enough is enough", and get your money back. The 10s is clearly regummed, and the £1 probably is too.

Look at the perf tips along the top edge of the stamps - they are dark, where the new gum has soaked into them, and as Glen says - not furry!

Look at the bottom of these 3 Roos - classic regum.

I understand what you are both saying, but have just looked at every perf through a X15 mag. against a white background and the perfs show only furry without any sign of darkness.

It seems that the dark background is showing through the furry tip. As its gone on the white. I will be taking these up London to get checked.

Regards
Pete

ozstamps · **Posted:** Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:18:04 pm

Peterd123 wrote:

Can you tell me what scanner you are using and the settings to get this fine detail of your stamp?

Regards
Pete

Another huge feature of this board .. swapping of info on such areas.

The best option seems to me a Canon LiDe 90 ... costs only about 60 quid and dead easy to use.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=313979

Glen

David Benson · **Posted:** Fri Nov 21, 2008 15:41:51 pm

re. the 10 Bob & the Quid,

perfect examples why 3rd. party grading would have aided the buyer. He would have looked at the grades and walked away. The 10 Bob would be lucky to get a 50 and the Quid about a 65.

I have no idea how GB graders would evaluate regums but presumably equate them with mint no gum (which of course they were).

As soon as the shysters with their flowery superlatives are out of the business to con people who do not have the full philatelic intellect, the better it will be for philately in the future.

David B.

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 22, 2008 01:08:04 am

David Benson wrote:

re. the 10 Bob & the Quid,

perfect examples why 3rd. party grading would have aided the buyer. He would have looked at the grades and walked away. The 10 Bob would be lucky to get a 50 and the Quid about a 65.

I have no idea how GB graders would evaluate regums but presumably equate them with mint no gum (which of course they were).

As soon as the shysters with their flowery superlatives are out of the business to con people who do not have the full philatelic intellect, the better it will be for philately in the future.

David B.

Have just looked at them with the aid of a microcope and one of our science lecturers, in our science lab at work. I can confirm that Glen is100% right with the 10shilling. At x40 you can see glue strands and bubbles within them, on almost every perf. You see a clear colour difference between the fibres and the glue. As for the £1 Green.

So far looking with the same x40, at every perf. We cannot see any difference in colour or any sign of glue strands. I know that this does not entrely mean that it has not been regummed as it could have had the perfs timmed. We are going to look at this one again, later today as run out of time in the lab. But at this moment it looks good.

If only I could get a picture through the scope of the 10 shilling, and put it on here, it would be a great thing to see.

Regards
Pete

PennyBlack1840 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 22, 2008 01:19:29 am

If he got them from Brian Bayford, then his recourse is to him - not your problem, I think enough is enough, whoever you are buying from ask for your full money back.

The offer still stands to look at anything you may be desiring to buy.

regards

Peter

Peterd123 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 22, 2008 09:29:45 am

PennyBlack1840 wrote:

If he got them from Brian Bayford, then his recourse is to him - not your problem, I think enough is enough, whoever you are buying from ask for your full money back.

The offer still stands to look at anything you may be desiring to buy.

regards

Peter

Your right enough is enough, I have checked the £1 Green and can see that the perfs are slanted from front to back. When looking at the front of the stamp under the scope, I can see the back of the perf.

But when I turn the stamp over and look, I cannot see the front of the perf. I think the perfs have been filed from the front. I have been in touch with him. These are going back. He said he will send me a cheque and pay my postage for returning them.
.
Regards
Pete

Highlander · **Posted:** Sun Nov 23, 2008 06:14:31 am

David B states

Quote:

As soon as the shysters with their flowery superlatives are out of the business to con people who do not have the full philatelic intellect, the better it will be for philately in the future.

Still leaves the problem of the doctored stamps floating around the system and lets not forget they are by no means all sold knowingly as faulty or altered copies.

The profits from some of these higher values are obviously very tempting to both sellers and buyers. It should be remembered that they are very expensive copies in unmounted mint condition because they are so rare, as the vast majority were hinged initially as singles. Just think how rare blocks or multiples of these kind of lots are-- I certainly do not recall blocks of either of these values ever appearing on likes of eBay.

On the other hand though , the lower values from these issues whilst still being much scarcer as unmounted are by no means unobtainable mainly because so many were bought and collected by some as blocks and multiples initially or with margins in which they were mounted.

Also, I would be interested to know about these two particular values(like some others also) which usually have Jersey or Guernsey cancellations as they were used far more for revenue than postal purposes.

As such were they actually sold by the local Post Office on those islands or some how at the local "tax office" and hence you would not have been able to walk in and buy a copy for your album ?

David Benson · **Posted:** Sun Nov 23, 2008 06:28:42 am

Quote:

Also, I would be interested to know about these two particular values(like some others also) which usually have Jersey or Guernsey cancellations as they were used far more for revenue than postal purposes. As such were they actually sold by the local Post Office on those islands or some how at the local "tax office" and hence you would not have been able to walk in and buy a copy for your album

I once read an article about the usage of Jersey & Guernsey cancels on the high values. From memory it had something to do with the absence of Tobacco Tax in the Channel Islands and that the high values were used on parcels sending quantities of Cigars (or cigarettes) to England. They should be considered as normal Parcel cancels and not Revenue usages,

David B.

ozstamps · **Posted:** Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:27:58 am

Quote:

They should be considered as normal Parcel cancels and not Revenue usages.

David that is quite the opposite to what I recall reading.

I understood the high value £1 QV and KEVII (especially the latter) with the undated "GUERNSEY" and "JERSEY" rubber cancels were 100% non postal.

They were as I recall used for some kind of duty receipt and as you say tobacco was the main item as I recall.

The mere fact they have NO TOWN OR DATE on any of these cancels precludes them from being postal in any way!

I seem to recall the duty involved was levied in multiples of 5/- hence the large number of 5/- , 10/- and £1 seen with these cancels.

The "Cancelled Nauru" we have discussed here before are also 100% non postal, although as we know many clueless sellers pass them off as "Fine Used". And many just as clueless buyers devour them as such.

In fairness most dealers and auctions on the GB, now simply sell them as "Fine Used in Guernsey", despite that being incorrect, strictly speaking.

As we know, as time goes on, memories fade.

Most Australian collectors have no idea that EVERY perf "OS" mint Kangaroo and KGV are 100% stolen goods from the Federal Government.

It does not stop SG, Scott, Michel and ACSC listing and pricing them etc, but nonetheless virtually none were legally obtained other than any sold via the 2 x PO Archive Auctions.

Nonetheless not even one perf OS" mint Roo or KGV was sold at face by the Post Office - at any time.

Glen
.

OttawaMike · **Posted:** Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:22:53 pm

I'm no expert on British cancels, but for what it's worth, the Guernsey cancel above looks very similar to a type of undated parcel cancel illustrated in Whitney's "Collect British Postmarks".

David Benson · **Posted:** Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:26:01 pm

Glen,

I just checked Sandafayre's Stamp Atlas,

Quote:

" During this period and during World War I many high values can be found cancelled with the postmarks of the two main POs. These relate to the payment of tobacco tax on the island and are not, strictly, postal usage. "

Looks like I was incorrect with my statement and the usage is for non postal purposes. They used the normal British Parcel cancels for the purpose,

David B.

GlenStephens · **Posted:** Tue Jan 13, 2009 08:34:11 am

Highlander wrote:

Still leaves the problem of the doctored stamps floating around the system and lets not forget they are by no means all sold knowingly as faulty or altered copies.

habbibank seems to be selling just such "MUH" items on ebay, refuses to offer scans of the reverses, and claims they are being sold to fund his daughter's new houre!

http://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 79#p418379

Amazing.

Anyone who seriously looks at this 140 year old washed out stamp below from the same ebay seller habibbank and can't see it is a re-perforated wing margin copy, that clearly has gum stained top perfs, but is being sold as "MUH" really should not be buying $1 stamps, much less $1000 ones.

How does ANYONE imagine a single high value stamp 140 years old can stay "MUH"???

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VICTORIA-9P-YELLO ... 0342242919

PeterS · **Posted:** Wed Jan 14, 2009 07:19:56 am

ozstamps wrote:

Quote:

They should be considered as normal Parcel cancels and not Revenue usages.

David that is quite the opposite to what I recall reading.

I understood the high value £1 QV and KEVII (especially the latter) with the undated "GUERNSEY" and "JERSEY" rubber cancels were 100% non postal.

They were as I recall used for some kind of duty receipt and as you say tobacco was the main item as I recall.

The mere fact they have NO TOWN OR DATE on any of these cancels precludes them from being postal in any way!

I seem to recall the duty involved was levied in multiples of 5/- hence the large number of 5/- , 10/- and £1 seen with these cancels.

The "Cancelled Nauru" we have discussed here before are also 100% non postal, although as we know many clueless sellers pass them off as "Fine Used". And many just as clueless buyers devour them as such.

In fairness most dealers and auctions on the GB, now simply sell them as "Fine Used in Guernsey", despite that being incorrect, strictly speaking.

As we know, as time goes on, memories fade.

Most Australian collectors have no idea that EVERY perf "OS" mint Kangaroo and KGV are 100% stolen goods from the Federal Government.

It does not stop SG, Scott, Michel and ACSC listing and pricing them etc, but nonetheless virtually none were legally obtained other than any sold via the 2 x PO Archive Auctions.

Nonetheless not even one perf OS" mint Roo or KGV was sold at face by the Post Office - at any time.

Glen
.

From memory, the various Australian imperfs of the GVI period (9d Platypus etc) were, largely if not totally, the result of thefts from the Stamp and Note Printing Branch and are also listed and highly collectible.

It seems that, as time moves on, the memory of the source of nice collectible items fades and nobody cares.

PeterS · **Posted:** Wed Jan 14, 2009 07:21:34 am

And on Kangaroo OS perfins, there are now probably more faked than stolen examples in existence! :twisted:

ozstamps · **Posted:** Wed Jan 14, 2009 08:52:31 am

PeterS wrote:

From memory, the various Australian imperfs of the GVI period (9d Platypus etc) were, largely if not totally, the result of thefts from the Stamp and Note Printing Branch and are also listed and highly collectible.

It seems that, as time moves on, the memory of the source of nice collectible items fades and nobody cares.

They were 100% stolen from printer. What collectors might not realise is, that until 1975 when AP split from the PMG the LAW said quite clearly possession or sale of them was a Federal offence under the Crimes Act. So "nobody cares" was not the issue there!

With the Postal Services Act of 1975 being re-drawn due to the split of AP, that clause vanished .. thank goodness.

So until then it was a stipulated OFFENCE to own or sell them, hence no-one was game to publicly. And catalogues a carried a similar warning. They sold for peanuts under the counter usually.

The law is still vague as to whether owning or selling DECIMAL postal forgeries - sold as forgeries well over face, is OK. A set of 4 of the international stamps was forged in China in the last 2 years in large numbers. Superb .. I cannot really tell them apart even when both sets, real and forged are side by side.

The Asian sellers (as under face postage) were caught. One MEL dealer bought many $1000s face just to use on mail.

He still has them. They would sell like hotcakes to collectors as the best postal forgeries ever done, at say $50 to $100 a set of 4. Clearly the PO would not see any used on mail at that cost price to defraud revenue, but the fact remains it appears it is probably illegal to offer them.

PeterS · **Posted:** Wed Jan 14, 2009 09:31:58 am

ozstamps wrote:

The law is still vague as to whether owning or selling DECIMAL postal forgeries - sold as forgeries well over face, is OK. A set of 4 of the international stamps was forged in China in the last 2 years in large numbers. Superb .. I cannot really tell them apart even when both sets, real and forged are side by side.

The Asian sellers (as under face postage) were caught. One MEL dealer bought many $1000s face just to use on mail.

He still has them. They would sell like hotcakes to collectors as the best postal forgeries ever done, at say $50 to $100 a set of 4. Clearly the PO would not see any used on mail at that cost price to defraud revenue, but the fact remains it appears it is probably illegal to offer them.

I would think that, unless they were defaced, ownership of these might well be an offence. The fact that they were obviously not going to be used on mail (after paying over face for them) may be a mitigation factor only. The problem won't necessarily be those particular stamps, so much as the precedent and the risk to the revenue going forward.

It's why possessing drugs is an offence, not just producing or supplying. No market means no reason to produce fakes.

I suspect it was a similar situation in 1932 with the forged 2d Bridge and GV.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:26:42 am

But this shouldn't have worried collectors outside Australia. Was/is there a market for them offshore?

Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum

GB EDVII £1 Green/10sh Ultramarine - are these MUH/UM?

Who is online