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I know the virtual impossibilty of possessing a GB 1d plate 77, but I found this bit of tat in a GB 1903 album (the album actually had 1903 estate valuations written beside almost every stamp and piece). It's on a bit of piece. The lighter image is closer to its real colour.

I darkened the second image trying to determine if it really was a 77. Any idea if plate 77 was used in 1877? or if the alphabet is in keeping with the plate 77 alphabet?

My kind thanks.

To dream the impossible dream...
B

1864 - 1879 is the date range for this issue, of course some will have been used many years after that.

Looks like plate 177 to me, I can see what looks to be part of a "1" on the right hand side.

Yes, clearly plate 177.

Gawd! When you can't see in PS you know you're in trouble!

easy mistake to make ,

when the heart starts pumping,and the hands starts to tremble,your thinking to youself :THIS IS IT my name up in lights,Philatelic fame and fortune,:

our eyes just do not want to see anything else

so I will not rub any salt into the wound but I will say,,,,,,

Its happened to me a few times,BUT ONE DAY I will strike the Mother Load,one day soon I hope,

Ron.

Yes, it's happened to everybody who had ever collected stamps and owned a catalogue. Maybe we should start a "near miss" thread?

100 is a pretty big miss though.

I know the 77 has a high catalogue value and is rare. How rare is it? Anyone know?

I believe there are only a few in existence, about 7 or 8 mint and used combined.

Dang Lighthouse album has a spot for it, smack dab in the middle of the page!

I've never understood why pre-printed albums often leave spaces for virtually impossible stamps.

That plate 177 looks like it is in need of a long overdue funeral or cremation, it should definitely be put out of its misery.

Yep a 177 for sure .. sorry.

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Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

In the case of Lighthouse, I think they have a policy that if it is an issued stamp and not an error, it goes in the album.

There's an even worse one in the Canada album, and I have two of them - one for mint, one for used. There is a spot for the 2c Large Queen on laid paper, of which two copies are known, both used.

From their perspective, though, I suppose it makes sense. If you're going to make exceptions, where would you draw the line? Overall, they make a nice album.

Okay, someone has to ask - I'm comforted in advance by someone saying here recently that there are no 'stupid' questions, BUT can somone please explain how this stamp is plate 177, or any other? I'm assuming the plate number is on the stamp itself, yet even allowing for my 4-4 vision, I can't for the life of me make out where.

Most grateful for any advice.

Clive

The plate number is in the scroll work on both sides of the stamp. It shows clearer in the middle of the right side - the number 177, sideways, reading down.

A sidenote just to follow on from Mike's post above.

The plate numbers being incorporated into the design is only good for line engraved stamps with letters in all 4 corners.

The corner stars don't have the plate number in the design so you could easily go blind looking for it.

Mike, Shrug,

Thank you both for those replies. I'm embarrassed to say I still can't see a number, let alone 177, but I will keep trying.

Shrug, just following on from your post, how do we work out the plate numbers for the 1840 and 1841 GB stamps, specifically the Black and the two Blues - or am I missing the plate numbers with them, too?

(Believe it or not, our Labrador has just put her paws up on the desk, looking at the computer, as if trying to say 'look, do I have to be your seeing-eye dog as well as everything else?' Mind you, she's one smart gal).

Clive

See if this helps - The two "7"s are on either side of the top half of the left stroke of the "W" (oriented with the W right side up) in the cancel.

Shrug,

The labrador just explained to me, in very simple words, what you just said - plate numbers occur only on the engraved stamps with letters in all four corners.

So are there any heads ups for identifying plate numbers of Blacks and Blues?

Clive

The blacks are easy - if you have the right book - as there are but 12 plates. The imperf reds will drive you nuts.

The blacks are relatively simple, and so are some of the reds with the help of the imprimatur photos, however using Fisher Brown measurements etc can be time consuming and sometimes quite frustrating.

Mike,

Re your first post. Yes, I think I can make out what you described, and many thanks for that. Are the numbers always that faint, or is it just that way because of 'blowing up' the picture?

Re your second post. My main interest being Oz and Tassie postal history, the only GB reference book I've got is a 1975 SG Commonwealth catalogue (which gives the plates but not how to identify them).

I'm working on trying to produce photos for my posts, but have been spectacularly unsuccessful so far (it's okay Glen, I've got your detailed instructions and am attempting to work through them, but you know how technologically challenged I am). Anyway, when I discover the secret I'll post our Black and Blue, and perhaps someone will be able to put plate numbers to them.

Thanks again, cobber.

Clive

Hi again Shrug,

We crossed in cyberspace.

Fisher Brown? I'm assuming that's a reference work?

(Just starting to realise how silly my questions must sound).

Clive

Yes indeed Fisher Brown is a reference work.

http://www.veratrinder.org/plating-penn ... -2986.html

http://www.veratrinder.org/plating-penn ... -2987.html

And no your questions do not sound silly! The truth is if you don't know something you would be silly not to ask.

Shrug,

Many thanks for those links.

Clive

Just so you can properly see where the plate number appears here is a scan of a 1d red imprimatur (plate 164)

You will clearly see the 164 incorporated into the design.

Mod - Dead links deleted

Shrug,

Thank you so much, that's brilliant.

So much to learn, so little time .........

Clive

You should now be able to look at the stamp at the top and know exactly where to squint at for the 177 plate number.

You can read it if you look carefully.

Shrug,

Yes, been looking for some time now. Have to say it still appears indistinct to me, even after all the help and signposting from you and Mike, but at least I can now make out roughly what and where it is. Would the number be clearer if the image was less enlarged, or is it just 'fuzzy' on this example?

Clive

Hi Clive,
It is not that clear anyway and the scan doesn't help that much either. You can however see it and it takes a little getting used to and training your eyes to pick out the plate number from the design. Once you get the hang of it the process is much easier.

Hope that helps.

In answer of how many 77s there are:

9 examples have been recorded - 4 mint and 5 used.

8 examples should exist, one used example having been lost in the SF earthquake of 1906.

Four mint examples (all well centred):

AB - Royal Collection
AC - stolen with Major Raphael's(?) collection, whereabouts unkown
BA - Tapling collection, British Library
?? - Ferrary collection, whereabouts unknown

Four used examples (all centred high to right):

LL - London 80 circle in bars, perfs clipped top and left, ex Lato, currently in English collection.
MI - straight edge at bottom, sold by Robson Lowe Nov 1944, whereabouts unknown
PH - on piece, sold by Robson Lowe 15/2/56, Adams collection, whereabouts unknown
PI - on piece used with 1862 4d SG79, London 15 in bars. In American collection I think??

Sorry for the bad scan, but here is the last item on the above list:



Current SG cat £160,000 used, unpriced mint.

INDENTIFYING PLATE 77 FROM PLATE 177

Stamps of plate 177 are frequently claimed as 77, having the plate number 1 obscured by accident or design.



The scan shows the mint plate 77 from the British Library against a common plate 177. The numerals 77 are in the same position along the sides on both plates, but if you look at the foot of the 7s it is discernable that on the 177 they all come down to a point that is slightly left of the intersection that is made by the two curved lines below.

On the rare plate 77, this is not so. All four of the 7s come down to basically the point of intersection.

It is this way on all 240 stamps of both plates.

Happy hunting.

Scott

Oh, and here is a full image of the plate 77 from the Tapling collection, that is in the British Library:



Ain't it loverly?!

Scott

Very lovely indeed!

To dream the impossbile dream...

My understanding was that the roller dies for for plate 77 (and plates 69,70,75, 126, and 128) were prepared in 1858, but were not used for several years and that the dies were rejected and none of the stamps, except a few from plate 77, actually reached the public.

Thank you so very kindly for your in depth info and great scans.
BTW I thought John DuPont bought the one in the Ferrary collection.

Great Tapling pic.

Do you know who owned the copy destroyed in the San Francisco earthquake? Spreckles? Hearst?

B

Of the six plates you list that never made it to press formally:

Plates 69, 75 and 77 were completed, but were rejected by the Dept of Stamps and Taxes because the impressions were not evenly placed so as to affect correct perforation. This means that a maximum of a few sheets of each of these must have been run off for submission. These sheets should have been returned by the printers for destruction. Only some from 77 have ever been found.

The other three plates all had technical problems during manufacture. The plates were never completed. Stamps from them therefore cannot under any circumstances exist.


I'm afraid I can't tell you who owned the SF example, but it would be nice to know for certain so I can update the list!

Scott

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If it erupts, don't blame me!!

Probably cheap at that price, in the current market madness who knows what one would go for at auction.

Pertinax,

You say

Why market 'madness'?

Clive

To all the experts. - thank you for this wonderfull information this has been most interesting

Rgds

Colin

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Philatelists are not boring old F A R T S that smell of mothballs

When I say market madness I mean that I find the current trend to skyrocketing prices very similar to the situation in the early 80s, that ended with a very large correction that some would say the market never really came out of until about the year 2000 or later.

I personally worry that we are in the same cycle, and that it's about to happen all over again. Some say the difference between then and now is that demand is now collector fuelled, wheras then it was investor fuelled. I am unconvinced. What with Gibbons buying massive amounts of GB material for their superannuation fund etc etc, I have grave doubts about that claim.

In my experience, ANY market that is going through major upside attracts lots of people who are just in it for the money. And included in this number are many who will simply drop their portfolio at the first sign of a correction.

Scott

Hi Scott,

That's very interesting. I'm not as across the overall current market as I'd like to be, should be, having only quite recently come back into philately after a long absence.

I do, however, vividly recall the 1980-81 period, and that was some wild ride for sure, and much damage, lasting damage, to stamp collecting was the result. I must say that it's hard to imagine we are about to experience anything like that again, but I guess history does so often repeat itself.

But for example, just glancing at the selling prices of Oz pre-decimal, say GVI and EII, at the height of the boom in 1980-1, today's prices are almost all still much lower in dollar terms. If inflation etc is taken into account the difference would be much greater.

Yes, there's a fool born every minute, and I used up my time and a few other people's as well. Who would now pay 48 dollars for an unmounted mint 2/5 cream wren? Or 40 dollars for the 50 cent Dampier. Ouch, that still hurts.

Clive

I sold all of my better British stuff about 18 months ago. I think the present prices for Victorian GB stamps are crazy, and I didn't like the stories of Gibbons buying up and hoarding classic GB to get the stamps off the market.

If it is true, that stuff will come flooding out at some inconvenient time!

S.G. #89, 1862 1/- Deep green, plate 2 (numbered 1), watermarked emblems, DL, strong rich color, attractively centered, o.g., very fine for this scarce stamp; signed Bolaffi and A. Diena (Scott #42a). (Image) Cat £2,500

SOLD for $US800.00

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Nice looking GB QV can still be a baragin.

Even in the recent super hyped Bill Gross sale bargains like this were there.

I'd have readily paid that .. and more.

Nice stamp for the money, kind of cheap. Maybe the mark on the cheek put a few off?

As you say, you would have readily paid more, so would I!, however it only takes a few like us and then it is no longer a bargain because we push it up to the right price or beyond.

Has anyone noticed the consolidation (monopolization?) of some major auction houses? Shreves was bought outright by Spinks last year. Matthew Bennett's buys Harmers then Arthur Maury's in 2007. Mowbrays 2007 partial purchase by former New Zealand Capstone.
I think there's a trend afoot.

How many of them are real acquisitions and how many are disguised bankruptcies?