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Hi all,

After reading many letters in the UK stamp press over the last few years from people saying that their local PO use labels and are discouraged by Royal Mail from using modern "special issues" for there intended purpose, I just wondered if anyone had examples of modern GB High value commemoratives commercially used on cover and most importantly in period (i.e. before the next issue appears).

I imagine they are pretty rare.

As some letters suggest these days most special issues are purely released for the collectors market and not for genuine postal need, a lot of top values don't seem to have a corresponding postal rate.

I know this situation has existed in the stamp trade for years and worldwide but it would be interesting to see some genuine covers.

Agree COMMERCIAL used would be scarce!

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Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

Here's a few I would like to find from 2006-7,
I am not really into collecting modern commems
but find it fascinating how rare these probably are,
anyone seen / got any of these on cover
commercially used and in period

Here's a few more worth looking out for.

Resonably common in Aussie,as that is the 72p rate,the ones we don,t see are the Middle values.

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Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

Any chance you can post some Aussie covers Mrblogger, high or middle values if you have any.

I don't know if he has any covers because a lot he gets have already been soaked off.

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Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.

Thanks a lot,

From doing some research on the web it looks like they just do not exist in the UK on cover, at least not in any quantity. I cannot find any for sale other than the usual first day covers, maybe that is all people want these days.

As I say, I am not particularly into modern commems but am just curious about the lack of material for the future.

At least the further you go back in time the more honest commercial covers are available, maybe its just another supply and demand thing and there is no demand.

And no willingness from the post office, as using them is less efficient that selling FDC's to collectors and using printed labels for mail.

The British p.o is complete crap,ALL parcels i receive in france have damaged hi vals or that poxy label,they do nothing at all to promote stamp collecting just profit profit profit.

Thank you for that constructive comment. As you will see on the 'show stamps received on parcels' thread, much depends on the sender. If the sender can't be a****d then you can't expect the postal service to take any care.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

You are right of course, on almost all points. One thing you cannot expect, however, is that they will be used "before the next issue appears", because they come too quickly, and some POs use an issue to exhaustion before taking the next one from the safe. In 2009 we had:

13 January - Design Classics 10 x 1st class

12 February - Darwin - 1st class, 48p, 50p, 56p, 72p, 81p

10 March - Industrial Revolution - 2 each 1st, 50, 56p, 72p

21 April - Tudors - 2 each 1st, 62p, 81p

19 May - Plants, 10 x 1st class

16 June - Mythical Creatures - 2 each 1st, 62p, 90p

(August - postboxes miniature sheet)

1 September - Fire Service - 1st , 54p, 56p, 62p, 81p, 90p

17 September - RN Uniforms 3 x 1st, 3 x 90p

8 October - Eminent Britons - 10 x 1st

22 October - Olympics - 10 x 1st

3 November - Christmas - 2nd, 1st, 2nd Large, 1st Large, 56p, 90p, £1.35.

So 'in period' would have to extend for at least 6 months, I think.

But here's another challenge - find complete sets of the 10 x 1st used on 10 inland covers. That's not as easy as you might think. However, I do have some due to somebody having access to competition entry mail, so I'll be putting some images up later, of the Olympics, and Album Covers (2010).

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Thanks norvic,

Glad you posted will look forward to seeing your examples, agree with what you say about in period and just too many issues too quickly, I suppose can't expect things as they used to be.

Not only GB but Aust. as well.

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Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.

The only way I can get recent high values is to use them myself on parcels to one of my children or grand children. Over the last years the US has issued a series of stamps for its "Express Mail" service. Values have risen from $10.++ to the current $18.++. They are valid for regular usage so X-mas, Birthdays and any other excuse gives me a chance to use them to cover the cost of the postage. I always include an addressed, stamped envelope inside the parcel with a note to save the stamps for me. Until the recent decision to save a buck by making the stamps difficult to soak from the wrapping paper it was an easy source of both these high values and other commemoratives postally used.
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And of course this often befuddles the counter clerk. I recall buying two $16.++ or so stamps and getting a parcel weighed to go to one of my sons who was then stationed in Korea. Stopping the clerk from printing the label just in time I said I would use one of the stamps I had just bought. I wish I had a photo of the look on her face.

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Charlie Jensen
<cdj1122@yahoo.nospam.com>
>>>delete the "nospam"<<<

Totally agree with you cdj,

I know its probably old hat but it seems that most postal agencies around the world only release commems and pictorials for collectors and expect them to collect mint.

The last thing they want is the stamps used as it is less efficient than their printed labels, finding genuinely used commems, especially the higher values for this period in stamp history will be very hard in the future.

Maybe there are just so many issues these days from so many countries that people won't even be interested enough.

As norvic says, there is a new set issued almost every month now in the UK, who will remember any particular issue in 20 years time.

I have trouble remembering which set was issued when over the last few years. I had a call Friday from a company that wanted 10 copies of the Industrial Pioneers presentation packs, for a delegation to take to China as gifts. I had to look at my website to find out that they were issued in March 09 and were thus no longer on sale.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

yes, maybe I shouldn't be woodchipping them

I am a little lucky; my father in Oz has been involved with philately all his life and given that I am no spring chicken... Anyway, so he has for many years had me sending him material but he also has had a fair few mates over the years in the UK who also send him material And then I have well trained family members in Oz to whom birthday / Xmas cards are correctly opened and handed on to my father.

Some examples (complete envelopes, name and address removed)--









Yes, all 'philatelic' in the sense of you'd need to know to finds these stamps and then use them. BUT all doing their job in the correct period. I would argue that the distinction between philatelic (especially when used in period doing its job) and commercial is meaningless when there is no alternative.

I am the lucky person who gets these items back as he does not collect modern material...

And of course the reverse applies; here is a nice modern Australian solo on complete item (but I also have many using MS and other delights);



Not convinced many will have this sole rate...

Thanks for posting those Jack, at least some are being used, just re-reading some old GSM's and came across this article from Ken Lake who regularly writes / wrote for the magazine.

Quote "Like many of you, I'm busy using up an accumulation of old GB stamps on my post" He shows a cover with a few old issues including machin halfpenny and 4 neat 2000 postmarks.

My question would be are covers like this worth collecting or are they just good for soaking the stamps off, its a fairly nice cover but the stamps are all being used after they have been withdrawn from general sale. Not saying they shouldn't be used, obviously they should but the cover is really worth nothing, only covers used with postmarks from the correct period are worth a premium otherwise anyone could make covers up.

The whole point of collecting covers is the limited availability, I could buy some top value commems from 10 years ago and send some letters to family but to a collector the cover would be meaningless, but if I had done it 10 years ago with a nice postmark it is collectable.

Reading through stamp dealer adverts quite a few sell old commems at a discount for postage so a lot of covers are around with stamps on "out of period" I suppose this has always been the case, but are they worth collecting ?

Only use current commemoratives on cover; that is the way of the future.

If you consider such catalogues as Michel and Australian Commonwealth Specialist Catalogues you will see that they all give the price used for the stamp on cover in the correct period right to the current day. Basically the stamp on cover is worth far more than just a stamp.

Now, the English philatelic scene is slow on taking on new ideas so it will be some time before it happens here BUT if you are going to post birthday cards etc to family train them up to open them neatly and get them back to you...

Stamps used out of period are generally not worth it.

Item 3 is wrongly cancelled as, with a mix of label and stamps, it should have the steel cds at the PO counter, but many PO clerks do not know that. Likewise the label should not be cancelled with the packet stamp at the sorting office. The £1.12 is a nice one with the £1 Edinburgh castle. The ink-jet postmarks are getting better than they were then, and you can usually read the date! Fortunately the receipt date helps (but why is that there??) The airmail label is interesting as it is torn from a sheet: most now are self-adhesive and have been for ages. Wonder where that came from...

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

The 'receipt' date is Dandenong Letter Centre (DLC) - all international in mail goes through there as I understand it for Victoria. Just a transit / sorting mark...

As you probably know, not many postal administrations use any sort of receipt or transit marks these days, even on misdirected internal mail. Exceptions are eastern Europe - Estonia still seems to put an arrival mark on everything AFAIK and much of the former USSR probably does.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Hi Norvic,

Looking through an old Commonwealth specialized catalogue I have I notice that after each GB commem set there is a "withdrawn" date, usually 1 year after issue, sometimes 6 months, do you know if current sets are officially withdrawn on a certain date or are they just sold out and superseded.

Probably an obvious question but dates don't appear in the standard catalogue and I wondered if they still applied.

Thanks for your time

Rule 1 - all special stamps remain on philatelic sale until 12 months after their original date of issue.

Rule 2 - all definitives remain on philatelic sale until 12 months after they are withdrawn from counters.

Both these rules have been broken, in that definitives have appeared in the bureau stock list with a withdrawl date which appears to bear no relation to the original sales period at counters. Maybe it's just when they realised that the stamps should not be on sale.

Rule 1 has been broken by various 'series' issues.

The 'Celebrating...' miniature sheets for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland remained on sale for at least a year after the last one was issued.
Ditto the 'Glorious....' Smilers Sheets.
The Action for Species series of Endangered birds, insects, flowers etc remains on sale, the first having been issued in 2007.
The Kings & Queens series will remain on sale at least until the Windsors appear in Jubilee year 2012, having started with the Lancaster and York set in 2008.
The Lest We Forget MS and Smilers remained on sale until November 2009 12 months after the last one (2008); the 3 se-tenant 1st class poppy stamps will be reissued in October this year (no reprint).
The Military Uniforms series finished in 2009 so the whole series will expire in 2010.
The 2007 Madonna and Child Christmas stamps are on indefinite sale.

What used to be simple has become complicated, adding to the confusion over 'in period' use. Of course this doesn't stop a withdrawl date being published.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Norvic--Just flicked through a lot of covers to Australia--the DLC mark is very commonly applied. It is Dandenong where they sort (at least for Victoria; does it do all Australia someone?) international mail. It also gets applied on a lot of Australian covers to UK as well as the normal marks.

Thanks Norvic,

Having dipped my toes in modern issues with this thread I think I will return to collecting pre 1980-ish GB, Commonwealth and Europe mainly definitive issues with a few minor exceptions.

That's enough to keep me going for a lifetime or two.

20 years time the GB catalogue will be the same size as Stamps of the world catalogue was when it was still one volume, dread to think what the size of Stamps of the World will be then

Out of interest what is your opinion of modern GB prestige booklets and miniature sheets.

Use GB prestige stamps booklets and mini sheets on your covers to trained family and friends (and keep some mint as well). Ok I'm not Norvic but you get the idea... After all, if you going to post something and you can get the cover back why not make it interesting; see threads here about Australia solo covers and how much they are worth...

Prestige Stamp books are not designed to be used for postage - and that's it. They are not sold at all POs.

Miniature sheets are also not really designed for postage: they too are not available at all POs.

But if you are using them, use them properly and don't overfrank!

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Sorry, I wasn't talking about using them, just wondered what your opinion was of collecting them mint especially as they generally try to sneak in a one off machin variety and other items not available singly.

Yes, I got distracted by the interim reply.

PSBs are interesting and the write-up is usually good, as it is in the year books, which are well worth having if you count the premium over face as buying a book.

But - like presentation packs and unlike miniature sheets - PSBs can't be displayed, or viewed, as they are. You either have to explode them or keep opening and closing, and that limits how you keep them. If you explode them, then you really need two copies of at least the interleaf pages to get all the information to display. (Sadly collectors don't seem to want empty books even as giveaways.)

As for investment or at least value retention, while many dealers (myself included) are pricing PSBs at a suitable premium it is still possible to pick up some below face on eBay from time to time, though you can't see them before buying and there may be corner knocks or other marks. (I don't offer investment advice as this is a hobby not an investment vehicle.)

Miniature sheets are a different matter and although there are too many of them, they can be displayed in the same way as normal sets and are often quite attractive.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Thank you very much Norvic

Interesting thread, though many covers i receive from stamp sellers are adorned with a variety of old issues on them used for postage and usually bear no postmark at all, many have a series of short red lines across the middle or bottom length of the cover - do Royal Mail have a secret "invisible" franking system designed to catch out the unscrupulous re-user? All mine go off to the charity collectors, where they go after that is their business, some may try to re-use them but they make fine "mint no gum" specimens.

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May 1840 - one of the greatest social revolutions in history!

OK, here's an idea.

I'm based in the UK. You're based in Australia, for example.

I mail you an envelope with the appropriate 'in period' high value for each issue as they're released (at the correct rate, of course). You mail me back an equivalent 'in period' Aussie high value envelope. At the end of the year we exchange our post.

Net result? Both parties are developing a very rare collection of 'in period' commercially used covers.

Sounds like a very inexpensive way to start up a new collection to me...

Any takers?

Nick

Sounds a good idea Nick, unfortunately I am only down the road from you in Shrewsbury otherwise I would be up for it.

Yes, exchanging 1st class machins between ourselves could get a little, dare I say it, dull...!

You could always try to collect a complete set of all the stamps issued in blocks of 10 used singly, and the other 1st class stamps issued each year.

We've had 70 so far this year, excluding Machins and miniature sheets. How many are in your collection?

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

You raise a very valid point Ian.

I started this thread with used high values in mind but when I stop to think how many of the pictorial 1st class issues have landed on my doormat this year, well...it's pitiful.

The only stamps that seem to come through my letterbox these days, other than machins, are on envelopes from stamp dealers sending catalogues and flyers etc...but even those tend to be issues from 20 years ago!

I fully endorse Nick's offer - for at least 15 years I have corresponded with a lady in the UK in which we did what Nick suggest. We both mutually agreed to stop in 2008/9 due to the issuing policy of Royal Mail and Australia Post, but we continue our friendship.



This is another problem for used GB collectors - we hardly ever see the 1st class stamps on mail to Australia. Likewise I guess many collectors in the UK never see Australian 45c/50c/55c/60c stamps on mail to them. And us used Australian collectors see few International stamps.

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Chris de Haer
Author of 'A Closer Look at Modern Australian Stamps' in Stamp News Australia.
Latest news on my blog http://stamps.chrisdehaer.com.au Follow me on Facebook twitter.com/stampchris

Here's an example of some fine used GB used in 1989, the special stamps being issued in 1981-83. Looks fine but of course it was from a dealer already using up stock - and of course they could have been replaced by another £1 Machin!

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Ian, of course, but it raises the issue which I have mentioned in the Australian cover section. Given that PSB and mini sheets are, in essence, philatelic by buying then what is the position when they are used for commercial use--



For example is part of a cover with cds date 12 October 2006 as such perfectly within time of issue. I argue that the difference between commercial and philatelic use here is pointless-it is actually both. It is philatelic as it bought an on a cover, but commercial as it actually on an envelope (large) to Australia. All commercial use must be this. The issue is date of usage...

Here the semantic difference disappears...

And probably one of the best; here is part of a cover paying correct rate to Kuwait with - I have been very reliably informed - obviously a desperately philatelic minisheet but paying correct rate to Kuwait. 24 June 2010.



As said, all usages must be philatelic just to acquire the item but it's doing a commercial rate. The difference between commercial/ philatelic only matters when there is a possibility of both. This, I think applies to all countries. To be honest, all mini sheets and booklet sheets from places like Australia and the UK are commercial...

Sorry I meant to say with some very rare Kuwait additions...

Not a commerative, but I've got 2 ok £5, a £2, a 50p, 2 * 20p on a parcel piece, all machines tho.

But how often do you lads in the UK, see £5 machines in real use ?

(The piece I've got, is from a nice lady I deliver mail to, she saves em to me )

Kloster

Sorry, this one cannot be commercial, because the sheet was never sold at post offices, other than those with philatelic 'Post Shops'. It was also not sold for face value. It won't be in Gibbons catalogue for both reasons - they don't even mention it as a footnote in the Concise.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Of course it's not commercial, I did not say that. My point is simple; commercial versus philatelic only means something where there is a choice. There is basically no choice for commemorative stamps used on cover; no one has any. The example shown is totally philatelic but within appropriate period. It represents a new idea.

In other words philatelic material used in period has to be assessed -

1.Commercial
2. Philatelic
3. There is no way this can be found purely commercial but it is used in period and was available from a post office in the stated period. Try and find another copy

Ian you miss the point; I never argued this was purely commercial. I argue it's an interesting item due to its mix of commercial and philatelic.

I did miss the point, and I do agree with you. The Pink Floyd sheet in particular is an enigma.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

[Interestingly, in the latest edition of Stamp Magazine (UK publication)
the letter of the month refers to some print runs for stamps that were
issued in 2007

Not surprising that the christmas 2nd class issue had a print run of just over 160 million whilst the Scouting Centenary issue had the shortest print run with only 2.5m being produced for all stamps above the 1st class rate

Does anyone know if the print runs for each issue are officially stored

The author within the letter obtained it under the Freedom of Information
Act

Until some date in the 90s which I have now forgotten, Royal Mail included figures annually in their Philatelic Bulletin. I can't remember whether the figures were numbers sold or numbers produced, but it included stamps, miniature sheets, stamp (PHQ) cards, and presentation packs. The numbers were published 12/13 months after the end of the year to which they referred.

Now Royal Mail has decided that it would help its competitors in the postal business if the numbers were published, citing commercial confidentiality for refusal to publish. The FoI request overrides this, so far. Their refusal, which has been made twice a year at trade briefings for several years, is despite the fact that no competitors produce stamps, and despite the fact that in several submissions to the regulator (for instance for a reduced rate for franked and business mail, and for the introduction of PiP) they had to publish far more information on volumes, incomes, and costs of processing mail than would ever be revealed by the publication of stamp production or sales figures.

The writer of the letter in SM has been banging his head against this particular brick wall for some time, and I have personally spoken privately to Royal Mail's Head of Special Stamps about this and I believe she now understands more than previously, why we are interested. I have also been discussing the situation with the British Postal Museum and Archive and whilst they cannot dictate what they are given by RM (only look after it once provided) they are aware of the situation.

So the short answer is, up to a certain point figures were published may be found in stamp catalogues, but since then no figures are available other than those you read in Stamp Magazine.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter