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Are you saying that the cancel is the same as used on first watermark roos?

Ebay seller jdprosser had a whole lot of CTO stamps which sold this evening.

This 5/- first wmk went for $124.50.


And this 6d first wmk for $43.56.


And this 2½d also for $43.56.



Not bad prices considering all of them have imperfections.

Clive

The jdprosser CTO stamps also included -

A suberb 1/- Victoria Centenary perf 11½ which sold for $23.05.


And a lovely Silver Jubilee set which went for $27.66.


But the star turn, price-wise, was a South Australia set which fetched $56.00.



Apart from the Jubilee set, I thought the bargain of the night was the 1960 Flowers definitives CTO for $7.50. I haven't seen them before outside a collector's pack.

Clive

Not me.

Well, that's cleared that up, then.

Glen the answer to your question, the Die III has no gum.

Well a lovely copy all the same pilot.

As I posted in clear English (to most) it has the same letter size, as the CTO cancels, and is steel, and looks 100% contemporary, so might have been what the Melbourne GPO did as "per favour" cancels when asked.

Glen

I found a 6d Large Kooka amongst some stamps I was sorting on the weekend, canceled in 1939 (after it was no longer on general issue), with a steel Melbourne GPO cancel. It has full gum and the letters run clockwise.

I will try to remember to scan it and load it up here tonight. Been a little distracted this week.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

I wish I'd said that.

Clive

Yes well worth having here for the record Peter.

Maybe anyone ordering specific stamps "used" via Philatelic got such a cancel?

This was probably in the same general boat. Full gum.

Glen, a 6d Large Kooka was obsolete by 1939, the date on the cancel. I don't think the Post Office had a Philatelic section, as such, till sometime in the 1950s?

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

I had both of these as CTO but on reviewing them they have different cancels would that be possible?

I think I had the odd bid on some of them.

amfhf1 - both look kosher to me - different cds types I'd say.



Peter, no separate Philatelic windows until Phil Collas set them up in each state GPO, but of course they did a pretty big business in mail order.

All the overseas dealers and collectors for instance would order non stop, and such enquiry generally went to Melbourne GPO.

Clive, am I right in remembering that the SA set did not have gum?

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter,

I can't answer that.

His ad doesn't actually say whether or not there is gum, but he put up a decent scan of the 'gummed' side. If I had to take a punt my guess is that they had full gum.

Either way, it was a good price. I picked up a kosher set for $16 just a couple of weeks ago, and another for $17.80 just before Christmas (no gum on either set).

His ad stated, in part -


Clive

The following was the description I saw on Ebay.

AUSTRALIA Circa 1940 Postmaster 3-way Folder with Nice Stamps

Peeked my interest to say the least.

Here was the folder.

The stamps unfortunalely had been looted at some point in time.

What remained where these.

I had hopes of getting them cheap.

One last minute bid drove it up to $46.00 however.

amfhf1

A pity it had been got at but still, seventeen CTOs for $46, that's less than three dollars a stamp. And the folder thrown in. A bargain.

Clive

Here is the 6d large Kooka with the clockwise cancel.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

What is your opinion of this?

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter,

Not common, but there are a few around if these are anything to go by.


The platypus was issued in September 1938, so quite probably another of the 'class of 1939' CTO cancels.

Not sure that the 1/- (August 1937) would have been a thirty-niner, but it's likely.

Clive

Peter,

My opinion is that you need a new scanner.

But more of the same, isn't it? Very nice, though.

Clive

Clive, not mine. The quality of the original is pretty miserable. The cancel appears very strange to me, with MELBOURNE coming immediately after GPO.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Here is an example of stupidity (or perhaps deliberate obfuscation?) by an auction house. Status International 2 Feb sale, lot 798. This is the description;

1/- Emerald wmk UPRIGHT. VF fresh CTO with gum ex PO presentation set. SG 11, ACSC 30w cat $500 for CTO, plus premium for wmk upright as probably 95% of CTO are wmk inverted

What they fail to understand, it seems, is that the catalogue price of $500 is for watermark upright, so no 95% premium for that!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter,

Perhaps it had to fit in VIC AUST, or similar, do you think?

Clive

Peter,

Yes, I saw that. It gave me a headache trying to understand it first and second times around.

Not sure if you've had time to go through all the descriptions (roos and pre-decimal) but there are some very iffy write-ups, and some very iffy pricing, in my view.

Mind you, they have an absolute peach of a first watermark 10/- CTO (lot 811), with a starting price of $900 and an estimate of $1200. Plus 16½% buyer's commission, of course.


What a stunner. I think the ten bob first watermark must be right up there with the scarcest of them.

Clive

Clive, they have a couple of AP15 cancels on high values. I agree that the 10/- is beautiful.

As to their write-ups...well, what can you say? Their claims of retail and/or catalogue value often just defy belief! Written by, or perhaps for, cretins!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Certainly does not look like the usual CTO cancel type, which is often so fine it can be rubbed off with an eraser as ACSC warns.

HOWEVER as the Mint Die 2 is many $1000s, the Greek forger is not going to be doing fake cancels on mint copies!

Glen, IO agree that it is not a faked cancel. Just a different one again! I decided to buy the stamp (only GB£21, incl. postage, A$32 at current exchange rates, even after the gouging by PayPal), but only for the postmark.

I now have 3 different cancels on the die II, the usual GPO MELBOURNE, the COMMONWEALTH OFFICES and this.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

The 'Commonwealth Office' cancels are worthy of more study and are not well understood.

I just bought pairs with gum of the 9d and 1/- Roos 3rd wmk with the similar "Records Melbourne" Oval I'll scan up if I get a chance.

The only other COMMONWEALTH OFFICES cancel I have is on a 2d Bridge. I keep an eye out for them but haven't seen any more.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Looks like you could be right, Clive. Found this on the web. Clearly Melbourne clockwise and probably VIC - AUST. Year also starts with 3 but doesn't look like 39.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

RJ's childish fake "Vic Aust" cancels were using a water based rubber stamp pad, and looked nothing like the above.

What you show is this I think Peter.

Glen, agreed - certainly not the fake VIC AUST cancel. The 6d Engraved is definitely a steel cancel, as is the 6d Large Kooka earlier.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

This adds another piece to the Large OS jigsaw with April 15, 1913 cancels.

The 1/- and 2/- ... and now the 5/- (with full gum) in recent times are all recorded thus.

If wool5 bought his 1/- many years ago for around same price as a normal CTO it seems to verify at least one set was done of that date - for who knows for what reason!

Kellows current ACCC article illustrates the full set to £2 with that April 15 cancel (non OS) and notes that 73 sets of that cancel are unaccounted for - maybe some were OS perfins?

wool5 - the colour looks pale, so I am guessing your 1/- has no gum ... can you confirm please?

Glen

These were Presentation sets. I guess it is possible that OS stamps were included. I just can't fathom any logical reason for their being so. I assume the intention was to present a set of the new Australian stamps to MPs and the like.

I can only speculate that, since the seat of Government was here in Melbourne, someone arranged for a set of stamps they were given for official postal use to be canceled at the GPO. The canceler used being the CTO canceler.

To get such a thing done the individual(s) would presumably have had to have quite some pull. With values up to 5/-, at a time when the average wage was around £2 per week and the letter rate was 1d, it was a reasonably significant commitment of Commonwealth funds. Be like taking something like $200 worth of stamps (in today's money and assuming 1/-, 2/- and 5/- only) out of government allocated postage and canceling them for personal use.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter the ACCC article has a list of who got the Ap 15, 13 sets.

The Prime Minister Andrew Fisher was asking for it to occur, as 2 Germans had asked him for such sets. These are some of whom got them.

Governor General,
Governors of all States
All 68 Federal MPS
All 35 Federal Senators
All 9 Federal Ministers
Premiers of all States
PMG of NZ

I guess some of these folks might possibly have had "some pull" as you put it?

None of the un-accounted for sets are in the AP Archives, so someone got them.

Remember they only gave away CANCELLED sets so loss to revenue - ZERO. So your point is lost on me.

They were simple freebies of zero value on an accounting level.

They were not a zero sum. The stamps, whilst costing the government nothing in the literal sense were still an accountable item (the reason they were punctured in the first place, to stop pilfering).

The stamps would have been carried, at face value, in the relevant departments accounts. I well remember, as a public servant years ago, having responsibility for petty cash. That included stamps and woe betide me if the petty cash didn't balance! The stamps on hand were part of the reconcilable balance.

I guess my point is based on the assumption that the OS stamps were not part of the standard Presentation sets, but were taken from postage on hand, intended for use as postage. All speculation, admittedly.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Glen,

Very, very interesting.

A query. The 68 MHAs and 35 senators (should that be 36?) included the federal ministers. Is it certain that the ministers 'double dipped', as it were?

I ask because, with such a small number of stamps dated 15 April, nine is a significant number. The low total puts into sharp relief the relative scarcity of these stamps.

Clive

Based on the list of recipients then, there were 129 sets supplied. The question is, were the April 15 and April 24 combined to make the 129 (meaning, perhaps, less than 70 of each date)? Also, where does the July 17 date come in?

Any way you look at it, these are scarce. Much scarcer than the December 3 date.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Good point, the count may only be 120.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Stop the idle guessing folks!

The article says, verbatim:

A memoradum on the file notes that "127 sets will be necessary to comply with the instructions of the Minister (G13 75/13) the balance will be required for stock." (Subsequently it was discovered one Senator had been left off the list, so the total number required for presentations was 128.)

That settles the number. Now all we need to know is the importance of the 3 dates.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

BTW Glen, no fair to drip feed the article! It's making us look like dills.

Can you post the whole thing up? Alternatively, do you have a contact that I can go to for a copy.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

200 sets were supplied by the PO and gives text of the letter that accompanied them to big shots above. all were aksed to write and acknowledge receipt: "on the form enclosed herewith".

The article goes onto to say the balance were likely given to retiring Bureaucrats, and other big-shot authorised presentations in later years.

It notes one set is in the Royal Collection - source unknown.

Huh?

April 15, April 24 and July 17. Why 3 dates if it was one Presentation event? Maybe the initial 127 were April 15 and, possibly, April 24. This would, in theory, leave the other 73 sets to be canceled July 17.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

That still doesn't answer the question as to whether the ministers were counted twice.

Clive, does it matter if the published number is 127? I would say that that number would tend to confirm the Ministers only got one set, not two, in any event.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.