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Sigh. Forget Apr 24 and July 17. They were asked for April 8, postmarked 200 sets, and mailed April 18.

The PM was later informed that the Specimen sets of stamps would be provided as soon as the full series of denominations had been issued.

The final stamp of the series, the £2, was first distributed from the Stamp Printing Branch on April 8, 1913.

On April 12, the Acting Secretary wrote to the Victorian administrator requesting a supply stamps for presentation purposes.

Please supply to this office as early as possible, 200 sets of the new Commonwealth stamps (½d to £2) same to be lightly postmarked.

Beginning April 18 1913 sets of the Kangaroo stamps were forwarded to the list of recipients drawn up by the Postmaster General.

< snip >

The date on the stamps used in these preservation sets was AP 15 13

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My Transcription Services Pty Ltd subsidiary charges $5 a word - to whom do I forward the account? 10% discount for fast payment.

Well, put it this way, Peter: in the 1910 Parliament, which lasted incidentally until 31 May 1913, there were 111 members - 75 MHAs and 36 senators.

The nine ministers were included in that number, not additional to it. Hence my question, did the ministers double dip?

Throw in the Governor-General (1), State Governors (6), State Premiers (6) and the PM of New Zealand (1) and that comes to 125.

Although, with Glen's later post suggesting that 200 sets were made up, I guess the numbers can be seen in a more precise context.

What it does tell us is that the 15 April cancelled stamps are in ratio 1:10 of the 3 December.

Clive

Glen, it is easy to sigh about questions when you have the information in front of you.

If the 200 sets were all canceled AP 15 then we will have to search for another explanation for the other 2 dates, simple.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

And, since there are none in the archives, it begs the question who got the rest. Sounds like HM KGV got at least one of them, not at all surprising.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

And I meant to add that the Postmaster-General who directed that the 200 sets should be made up, and decided who would receive them, was Charles Frazer, the man who was responsible for the issue of the kangaroo and map series of stamps, and who in all probability worked out the design.

So, with 200 sets, there is a one in two hundred chance that any stamp with that 15 April cancel belonged to Frazer. Or even the Prime Minister, Joseph Cook.

Clive

My rate has gone up to $6 a word.

Sorry Glen, rate is too high!

Damn work is getting in the way and I cannot concentrate on the important stuff! Oh well, off to do some cost estimates for an RFT.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter (and others) I think that it may be better if you consider joining the ACCC of NSW, after all if a stampboard member was to publish all/most of their articles here, there would be no need for membership of the society, no members = no society = no articles.

It is well worth being a member of the ACCC of NSW as they have some very interesting articles, and you can ask questions and get some answers.

I can assure you that all of Dr. G. Kellows articles are throughly researched and well set out and are a pleasure to read.

Best regards David

David, I would be glad to do so. Tried to negotiate their website and gave up in frustration!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Hi Peter (and others),
Could I suggest that you drop the secretary a line re membership. The Secretary of the ACCC of NSW is:
Mr. Robert Vadas,
GPO Box 1971,
Sydney,
N.S.W. 2001
Australia.

Annual membership is A$ 40.00 for Australia & Oceania
A$ 75.00 for the Rest of the World.
Well worth being a member for the cost of a cup of coffee a month (2 cups for the Rest of the World).

Best regards David

No email address? Oh well, will drop a letter. How old fashioned.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

The 1/- is in storage accompanied by many non OS friends, so I am unable to quickly check. I cannot recall off hand whether it had gum or not - it probably does not, but I'll check in due course. The scan is a low resolution one of a colour photocopy, so may not be absolutely spot on in terms of colour in any event.

Cost $43 (inclusive of buyers premium) in 2001.

I've seen several Perf OS CTOs on 1st watermark in the last few years.


Some are fakes:

- 2 1/2d indigo large OS with 3 Dec flat 3 cancel posted in earlier pages, and still on ebay
- 2 1/2d indigo small OS with April cancel (held by a large dealer and not for sale which I saw last year).


Others are like the 1/-, the jury could still be out, and we ultimately may never know:

- 2/- large OS offered for $150 about 2 years ago (not on ebay)
- 5/- posted earlier which sold for $300 odd dollars

On the 1/-, there seems to be an ever so slight small slant on the OS - the S appears to be fractionally lower than the O when judged by reference to the bottom of the lettering of Australia.

As I indicated in an earlier post, I have a colour copy of a large CTO collection of States, Roos and KGV since broken up. It contained many April cancels and other harder to find items, including flat 3 on the 5/-. It did not contain any 1st watermark roos with perf OS.

At this point in my collecting pursuits, personally I prefer 1st watermark CTO roos without holes. Unfortunately this thread is creating too much competition.

I recently reviewed this whole thread, and I think there are still a few CTOs which have not been scanned on pages above. I think there are a few 3rd watermark roos not contained on any pages above.

wool5 - if you bought the 1/- over a decade back it will be fine.

A CTO non OS 1/- was a very good stamp then with UPRIGHT wmk, and worth easily the $43 you paid.

The faking back then was very minimal and no-one would risk an already valuable stamp in case they messed it up - to get at the end of it - a stamp of same value. Not on your life would anyone have bothered.

Hi guys, could I please get your oppinion of this?

Cancel is a little strange five is upside down but if its legit this I think could be very rare.

Was part of a collection of used blocks for sale that included a inscription block of 1934 one shilling centenary and several other very nice blocks.

Any way fingers crossed.

amfhf1

This went off earlier this evening, for about $55 if I recall correctly.

Seemed rather a high price for what at first glance doesn't shout out what the bidders saw that I didn't.

My assumption is that either (a) it's a per favour cancel or (b) it might be a Miller Bros block. If the former, it sold for a high price; if the latter a good buy, in my view.

It's a nice piece whichever way you look at it.

Clive

$55 CTO for a $5 mint block seems pretty high end to me.

Not especially scarce as a set, but this trio I listed up tonight (that sold in 3 minutes!) stood out from the pack as the PERFS were miles better than usual.

Something well worth looking out for on this set.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=34031



CTO from the PO Specimen Packs. Unusually nice, as the perf 10½ set was a nightmare to separate, due to the rough gauge, and tough very fibrous paper used.

The gauge was quickly changed to perf 11½ based on customer and staff complaints about the difficulty to separate. These 3 all have intact perfs .. a miracle, trust me!

Hi Glen, I thought that any time you could get CTO from this era in blocks it had a premium to it. On top of that as its an inscription block adding a further premium to it. I thought how many could there be so paying ten times the price seemed reasonable. I have never seen one before I thought I was onto a good thing.

Hi, I have one that looks to be CTO but in my brain is telling me it's just a normal cancel very faded, looking forward to your thoughts on this one.



Cheers
Micky

Looks can be deceiving. This is a commercially used card. CTO specimens would not have been addressed, just for a start.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Undated day and month MEL CTO cancel, and sharp corners was not used postally I'd wager. And nothing franked at 1d ever went to Frankfurt Germany. (See Commonwealth country admonition on card face.)

Just some German collector later adding his name to it is my guess.

Good point. I read the address as Frankston!

However, if it is the CTO cancel there should be a month and day in the date. May be poorly inked I suppose, but it isn't the normal crisp cancel of that time.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Thank you Peter & Glen, I am glad you guys are here to teach me and many others the points to look out for, I kept my hands out of my wallet on this one.

So CTO were never addressed not even to a family member or friend?

So I need to take note of this too as well as a low denomination stamp being mailed so far from home, simple just never thought of it that way (thats Micky).

Thank you Teachers
Micky

wool5

That was an informative post, many thanks.

But do you really think this thread is influencing prices higher? I guess you could be right because they do seem to be trending up, if eBay is anything to go by. Last night a 9d first watermark went for $63, and a 4d $66 (paul350q).

The biggest surprise, however, was this stamp, previously featured here, which sold for a whopping $82.


And it isn't even a kosher first watermark CTO, despite being advertised as such.

In fairness I think the seller intends to advise the buyer accordingly and offer to cancel the sale.

Clive

I would say this is from Miller Bros. And I think the date is 19 (not a 5 upside down)

The CTO cancel is fine and how often one sees a genuine CTO imprint block? I think whatever price you pay now in a few year's time it will look cheap.

Cheers
Alex

I have to agree with Alex. Very much top price today, but will look cheap in 10 years time. Just look what is happening to the lower denomination First WMK Kangaroos. Prices are getting higher all the time, whilst the 1/- to 5/- are fairly static (more of them have survived).

BTW, the date is definitely 19.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

I saw this stamp too on ebay and actually think it is interesting. Whilst it is not the normal CTO cancels for the first watermark Roos, it does look like the CTO cancel on some later issues (that you often see on small multi watermark KGV and 3rd watermark roos), e.g. like this:



These are all 1/4d small multi perf 14. The CTO cancels on them look exactly the same as the one on the 5d roo.

Who knows, maybe the PO prepared some special presentation sets? Certainly I have never seen a first watermark roo with such CTO cancels but then it seems there are still so much to be learnt about CTO stamps.

Cheers
Alex

I have to agree that prices for genuine CTO stamps are going up. I did bid on a few lots from the same seller and I was outbid on every single lot (even though I thought my bids were already on the high side!)

But then on the other hand, that means my collection of CTO stamps is also going up in value

Cheers
Alex

By the time the 'new' CTO cancel was in use the 5d Kangaroo had long been obsolete, replaced by the 5d GV.

Personally, I think that (at best) it is a 'per favour' cancel.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Alex,

I agree with you, and in a very technical sense it could be argued as being CTO. But it is not a CTO from the 1913 specimen sets and that was my only point.

I also agree with you, and Peter, about that Kingsford Smith 2d block. Even aside of whatever its value is, it is an extremely 'collectable' item.


Ain't that the truth.

Clive

Peter,

Returning to the CTO clockwise MELBOURNE cancels. Had a quick run through and came up with quite a few, including these clear dated examples -




And another, without date -


Last, this one has the clockwise cancel and is dated 1937 -



- so this cancel seems to have been in use at least as early as that year.

Clive

Clive, it looks like 1939 was quite a year for CTO cancels. Perhaps they replenished their stocks of sets in that year.

Your 1937 cancel reminded me of a few I posted a while ago (as OS perfins or overprints). These were some of them, again with clockwise cancel.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Good Morning

Lets hope the Owl doesnt get onto the chance to profit from using his "expertise" on CTO as well.

John G

The Owl I feel sure has learnt a large lesson from the discussions here. Last week he mailed me this re-perf we ID'd recently, and I'll pass it on to the Royal reference collection.

It all assists in keeping collecting as clean as we can.

Hi Peter, I received the CTO cards in the mail today I will just show the CTO it self the cards are in pretty good condition and well I am happy to start my collection with these and the others I showed last year, do you really think $10 to $15 each is ok for these?

The top middle card actually opens up and there is another one the same directly underneath on a reply card.

Is there any particular dates to look out for I seem to have a lot in the year 1901.



Cheers
Micky

Micky,

They are beaut. And at the price, a really good buy.

Clive

Thank you Clive, it is a boost for me. I think I will stick to small ones let others have the more expensive ones out there. I still have 3 to come a SE 23 01, AP 10 02 & FE 04 02 cheap at $3ea, oh I forgot and AU 13 01 $2. Keep the spending small and limited and enjoy the continous xmas gifts

Micky is happy

Thought I would like to share this..... just bought it on ebay (buy it now) for £21 (about $31) including shipping, which I think is a very fair and reasonable price.

4 stamps are CTO (½d, 1½d, 4d and 1/4d), from the scan look fresh and well centred (the 1/4d centred towards bottom, but still is better than what normally seen especially for perf 13.5 issues)





Cheers
Alex

Nice Alex.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Micky, the reason for the 1901 dates is that that was the year of Federation of the six Australian colonies into the Commonwealth. Lots of presentation sets to new parliamentarians and the like in that year.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Alex,

Peter will be pleased with the 4d and 1/4.


They both have the clockwise cancel. The 4d, which is as well-centred as they come, has a clear date of 1938. The 1/4 is also 1938, I think.

Lovely stamps and an absolute steal at the price.

Clive

Thanks Peter and Clive
I also noted the CTO cancel on the 4d and 1/4d is same as the ones you and Peter have shown earlier but with different year (38 instead of 37 or 39).

Cheers
Alex

Peter,

These are third watermark -


Nicely illustrating the clockwise and anti-clockwise cancels.

Makes me wonder for how long third watermark 6d stamps were included in the specimen sets - the clockwise cancel perhaps suggests several years after they were superseded (1929) by the small multi and then C of A versions.

But what really intrigues me is when the clockwise cancel was introduced for CTO.

Whatever, with the information that has surfaced on this thread it is clear that the ACSC needs to be almost completely re-written in relation to KGV and KGVI CTO stamps.

Clive

Clive, I have a Specimen pack that contains the CofA Specimens, so has to be early 1940s. I am pretty sure it contains the 6d Third WMK, along with the 6d Sm. Multi O/P OS. The set also contains a 6d Engraved, a variety of GV (various WMKS), a 5/- Bridge and all the OS commens (perf and O/P). Looks to be an original pack, all stamps are unhinged, full gum. The 10/- Robes (SPECIMEN) is there, as well the 10/- Sm.Multi perf OS.

I just wish I could find the bloody thing!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

So far, the earliest year is 1937 for a clockwise GPO MELBOURNE CTO cancel.

I think I might have suggested a rewrite was needed a while ago.

With the increasing interest in CTO, based on some of the prices being obtained, I think accurate information is going to be vital, lest the crooks and charlatans move in and ruin it like they have the OS perfs.

On OS perfs, there are quite a few coming up in auctions in the near future. It will be very interesting to see how they go.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter,

You and several others, regularly.

In one of danmagpie's current ads he seems quite confident that there will be a new roos' ACSC published this year. But there is a lot more to CTO than roos.


I stopped buying OSs some time ago. Couldn't really be sure of anything about them any more.

It's hard enough with 'straight' stamps.

Clive

I wish I could be confident there will be new ACSC voluimes released this year, or next!

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Hi Alex,
On the back of your OS CTO KGV ½d there is a piece of gummed paper at the top right and there appears to have been a similar piece at the bottom right, these usually indicate that the stamp has been added into the sheet after a damaged stamp has been removed, the replacements can range from a single stamp up to half a sheet.

Best regards David

Alex, David is right. Whatever you do, don't soak that stamp!

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Will definitely keep the stamps as they are! Unless it is badly toned, I will try to keep the gum on any CTO stamps as after all, it was how they were issued in the first place.