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OK, all you KGV 1d Red Head specialists...

I need some information on what you consider to be a reasonably priced (for a pensioner) UV lamp to check the reactions of the 1d Red Heads. I have just found out that the el cheapo I bought gives a great reaction to the 10/- Roo, but as far as the Heads go they all come out as.....RED. Very little difference in the reaction. Have tried in total darkness in the cupboard under the stairs (wifey got real suspicious - wondered what I was doing, and checked for Playboy magazines afterwards!). Where are all the eosins hiding

Advice and possible supplier appreciated.

Clemo

Clemo,

Was the UV lamp you bought long or short wave

The best one to use for 1d. KGV reds is one with 360nm UV(A) wavelength. The cheap one's will vary pretty wildly. Only get one from a recognised philatelic or scientific supplier. These can be guaranteed to be at that wavelength.

_________________
Tony

Thanks, Tony,

Will shop around.

Regards

Clemo

Hi all KGVer's & clemo,

If you are a handyman or know an electrician you can make one yourself.
you will need:

Phillips U/V globe (bulb)
E/70/2
HPN 125 W.

Soltra choke for 125 W Mercury Vapour Lamp
MVJ 125 P-1

RIFA Capacitor
250 V 50 Type PHN

and an on/off switch.

and a sheet of aluminum to make a shade for the globe.

some parts may no longer be available but there are other equivalent parts that do the job.

You could also see if Michael Eastick has any UV lamps for sale.

We (George, Tom and myself) started checking the UV reactions of the KGV1d red's back in about 1975, and after years of research our results were used as the basis for the UV reactions as published in the ACSC.

The UV globes are not cheap but they do last (I am still using the same globe I purchased in 1975 and it must have had 1000's of hours of use by now).
I hpoe that this is of some help to you.

Best regards David

Thanks David.

As an ex-electronics tech in a past life (air force) should have no problems with that.

Regards
Clemo

clemo i have one i picked up from junk shop is ex bank for checking passport signatures seems to work some paper reacts some ink reacts accurate or not i don,t know. al

An extremely novice question here I know, but, my partner bought me a UV lamp some time ago.
What do they actually do, and what/how are they used Short wave if I remember correctly.

Arlene

I have the michael eastick lamp, but it has stopped working, after maybe
10 years. Happen to anyone else? The lamp could have been constructed
better- the top is really too heavy for the flexible upright & has sagged for
years. I'm wondering if maybe the globe is o.k. & it's just the switch.

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mobbor

Hi all,

Many thanks for the interest shown, the advice tendered, and the general comments.

Am currently searching stamp dealers/suppliers to see what they have to offer. It seems that one gets what one pays for - quality costs.

Will post here what happens.

weirdal - maybe I should take all my KGV Heads into a local bank and ask to use their 'black light'!! They would probably charge me the earth for the use of it.

Regards

Clemo

Hi Arls1

Long wave UV is used to check Fluoresence (Lamp causes stamp to glow) and Phosphoresence (afterglow).

Short wave UV is used in the same way but mainly for older GB issues as the inks and coatings used "exite" at this wave length.HOWEVER - WARNING - Short wave UV is dangerous (same/similar wavelength that causes sunburn) NEVER look into the lamp.

I personally use Prinz lamps and in addition to this i bought a banknote UV scanner.

Have Fun

_________________
Philatelists are not boring old F A R T S that smell of mothballs

Hi Clemo and all KGV er's,

Maybe these photos will help in the building your UV lamp, OK its not a work of art but it does the job very well, and I work on the principle that if it works don't touch it.

This is the type of lamp that was used by Rosenblum & Purves in the 1930's.

The lamp:



wiring diagram:



The shade/cover:



The lamp will give off a fair amount of heat, so we drilled ½" holes to allow it to get out (helps keep the globe cool). The next part below is attached to the top of the shade to cover the holes (allow about ½" between the two surfaces) this lets the heat out and also stops the UV rays from getting into your eyes.

The attachment to the horizontal bar:



The end plate:



In the center of this is where the globe/bulb holder is fitted.

Tips: Get your UV globe first, mine is a screw in type, so I needed a screw in type globe holder. Also cover your tweezers in a black cloth, just leave the ends clear, this is to stop the UV rays reflecting off your tweezers into your eyes.

PLEASE get your lamp checked out by an electrician BEFORE YOU USE IT.

This is the type of lamp that is used by all serious KGV 1d stamp collectors use to check their shades, if we all use the same type of lamp then you will be describing the same type of reaction when talking to each other, as I stated earlier the parts are not cheap but if you find one Eosin its more than paid for its self, and I've been using this lamp for over 35 years and never replaced any of the parts.
I hope that this will be of some help

Best regards David

Hi!

Yesterday I got a cheap UV lamp for detektion of UV reaction! Do you think it would be usefull for 1d reds? It is a lighthouse ultraviolet lamp with broad spectrum of long waves, peak efficiency at 366 nm, 4-watt-bulb, double insulation, 220-230 V, -50 Hz. I`d like to go through my 4500 1d reds with the lamp during the next month! I thought I should start with the rough papers, as I don`t have so many of them, a bit more than 350 I think (if I have identified them correctly as rough papers!?).

Here is the picture of the first ones I`m going to watch at, these are the OS ones I thought to be rough papers! Perhaps the experts already see if there could be a better shade within!? Unfortunately not all are dated, this would make it a bit easier!



Thanks

Interesting topic to read but I don't quite get it for 100% yet.
Are you guys using a ultravioletlamp to work out the different paper kinds or the the different colors?

English is so dificult sometimes when everybody is speaking Dutch around you

_________________
Knowledge is Power, but it is worthless when you don't share it!

Hi Filajunkie,
People use these lamps to detect different shades. There are a number of shades that look very similar in daylight which show quite different UV reactions.
Cheers
Chris

_________________
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

Hi all,
Im not sure if anyone has used this site.ive got nothing to do with them.but looking at there web page.they have alot of uv long & short & electronic perfmeters & watermark checkers.nice prices i think.

http://www.coins-stamps.com.au/

Im interested but not sure on prices or whether these products are even any good?

What you all think?

regards Peter

Thanks for the explaination Chris.
Sounds interesting to try out on my stock.
Who knows it also works on my speciality aswell.
Have to figure that out in the weekend.

Houdou
Alex

_________________
Knowledge is Power, but it is worthless when you don't share it!

Hi josto,

How are you going checking your rough papers under your U/V lamp?
I would suggest you start on the smooth papers that you have dated
1914 and slowly work your way forward to 1919.

Best regards David

You might like to try this site for details of the UV reactions of the 1d Reds:

http://www.glebecoins.net/kgv/home.htm

Ross G.

Hi Kaygeevee,

thanks for your tip according to the 1d reds! I`ve not yet started as I`ve not yet got my "redhead" book, which should help me a little bit! But I`ve already sorted out those stamps of the rough and smooth papers, which show a clearly readable date. At first I took those together, which have the complete date, then I took those with only month and at last I took those with only the year. I think this will be the first thing you have to do when starting this "project" 1d reds!? Just by having a fast look over the stamps with my UV there are "very" many different UV reactions! I still hope that there could be one or two scarcer ones between them!

Best wishes

josto

Hello David

I am having trouble buying or finding the parts for the UV lamp as below. I have tried jaycar have you any other suggestions. I understand the drawing of how it all goes together. I am assuming the part marked capa is the capacitor? What does the choke and capacitor do? I would liek to understand how it all works and why you can not simply screw in the light bulb into a swivel lamp.

Thanks

Shawn

Hi Shawn,
I will contact my friend and see if he can contact the items, it may take a few days to get an answer.
As for what they do: I don't know, but I know that you need them.

Best regards David

Thanks Davidthat would be great

Regards

Shawn

Hi,

Most UV lamps are basically Mercury vapor gas lamps. Principle of work is electrical discharge trough this low pressure gas/vapor. For this effect to occur you need high voltage, hence you need transformer (mentioned choke) and capacitor.

This lamps are much a like fluorescent tube except they have no coating of fluorescent material. There are however lamps that don't need this additional parts and the look exactly same as low consumption, eco friendly bulbs except they are transparent.

They can be pricey since they are made for special applications and they incorporate all functional parts in one bulb.

This is one example:

Hi Shawn,
This has been harder than I thought to track down the items.

Choke.1) VS167140 = 125W MV Choke (at) $35.00 + GST

Globe/Bulb holder: 2) JBCLHJBL = E39/40 Porcelain LH c/w Gasket (at) $4.50 + GST

Capacitor: 3)1x LCP0110021 = 11uF 250V M8 125mm Leads (at) $3.00 + GST
Plus freight ~ $15.00 + GST. These can be obtained from.

JB Lighting
10 Christensen St
Cheltenham 3192
Phone ( 61 ) 3 9553 5000
Fax ( 61 ) 3 9553 5200
Mobile 0439 345 128

As for the UV globe, it appears that the Phillips ones are unobtainable, my friend was able to get.

The details on the globe are;
Purchased From: Lamp Replacements
Contact: Allan. as a reference.
Phone #: 03 9762 7300
Part #: MVBLB125
Price: $67.50 + GST (This may not be their direct to public price?)
Freight: Unsure. Probably $15 +GST.
Unfortunately Phillips are at the moment unavailable - They supplied me a Iwasaki Japanese bulb, which I am yet to try.
(Shawn, on the phone I was given a price of $116.00)

Or you could get in touch with:
Michael Eastick
03 9894 8561
I spoke to Michael yesterday and he told me he had some of the parts at the shop. Once again I'm sorry for the time it's taken to get the information.

Best regards David

Hello David

Thankyou for all your effort. I will start making the conatcts and start building the lamp

Kind regards

Shawn

I have in the past built light boxes for shop signage, so I contacted some of our old suppliers to get some prices, and knock it up this morning.

The first hurdle I had.
The bulb.
-phillips u/v globe , e/70/2, HPN 125w
-brandname
-ultra-violet globe,
-?/??/? ( is this a store part number ? )
-HPN could this be HPM or HPA? Does anyone know what HPN is?

HPA - metal halide UV-A radiators with iron and cobalt additives
HPM - Reprography lamps with lead and gallium additives diazo range
TUV - low-pressure mercury vapour discharge lamps - UV-C radiators - this is the one that makes sence, but I need to know the UV wavelength emitted from the bulb to get an exact replacement.

Are there any marking on the globe?

edit : very interesting chat with a UV specialist here in Adelaide. I will visit him next week and look at the UV-a-b-c lamps he has ( used for many purposes. )
All I need is confimation on is the wavelength most suited to excite eosin. ( 366nm is most likely a the common wavelength to excite flourecence for stamps in general. The eosins and analines will excite differently.)

_________________
People will like you more if you stfu.

Hi barry-e,
You are correct I have put HPN for the globe it should be HPW 125W.
The sign on the globe is very faint and I've just had to use a Magnifine glass to make it out.

To ever body, sorry for the mistake.
More updates tonight.

Best regards David

I have been asked in other posts if other types of UV globes/bulb or lamps will give the same results as the one described in the above post, well I have not used them so I can not say, I have tried 2 hand held UV lights and the results were, shall we say no good.
Below is the type of globe/bulb we are talking about, it was used in scientific instruments, each ones UV radiation is the same so you will all see the same results.



Best regards David

John G asked in another post for some more photos so that he could get an idea of the scale of the lamp, as I've stated before I made this up in a hurry as I wanted to use it "like yesterday" I'm sure that I would make a better job of it today but as they say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and it's lasted since 1975 or thereabouts.

Below is the shade: made of aluminum with aluminum foil covering the ends, the ruler is 30cm long.


Next the globe/bulb holder also shown are the attachment to the shield. Quite simple I bent a spare piece of the aluminum from the shield to about 90 degrees, drilled it and fixed it to the shield with a small nut and bolt.


This is the back of the stand, showing the choke (the big black thing) the Capacitor (the long round thing) and the ON/OFF switch.



Here's a board for G10 that I used, it was a bit large so I'm now using one's about 3/4 that size, As you can see with your lamp on the end of an arm (refer earlier post) you can move your sheets around underneath.


I hope that this will help you all.
Note the globe HPW 125W not HPN as I posted on 21 Feb. 2009

Best regards David

Wonderful David. Thankyou for the up-dates and pics.
I too have used a few uv light sources and I agree with your statement " that we should all be using the same instrument for the same results.

I'm confident, that this can be replicated. Instantly found 2 similar globes in the stock list phillips too !

HPR, HPW, MLW lamps
Philips HPR 125W E27 CRP/16 : see HP125R E27
Philips HP125R E27 : 65 EUR/pc
Philips HPW 125W T E27
Philips HPW 125W TS E27
Philips MLW 160W E27

_________________
People will like you more if you stfu.

I afraid I would electrocute myself and burn the house down if I tried to construct a UV lamp like the one pictured above Flipping the circuit-breaker switch in the fuse box is about the most manly electricity related thing I've ever done. And hammering two bits of wood together...

So that is why I bought my lamp. The battery powered, hand-held Lighthouse type ones are no good for 1d red KGV work. The light is too weak and too violet to allow observation of some of the nuanced reactions.

I work in a chemistry laboratory, so I bought the set up that we use for observing fluorescent emissions.

Products from the Spectroline Corporation http://www.spectroline.com/stamps/stamps_lamps_hand-held_e-series.shtml



The picture is a screen capture from their web-site, and shows what the EN-series looks like.

I bought model # EN-160L/FE. It is mains powered and has a long-wavelength fluoro UV tube (6W) with filters on the tube and in the window of the unit. What this means is that most of the stray emissions above about 400nm are filtered out, leaving only the invisible UV wavelengths that have a peak intensity around 365nm for this model.

Human vision cuts out at about 400nm, so everything below that is invisible. The purple light that all these lamps emit is stray light and only interferes with the UV induced fluorescence from the specimen by adding a violet tinge to everything. From memory it cost about $200.

Also, I bought a viewing cabinet.



This is so the stamps can be viewed in total darkness any time of the day. Plus the view window has UV filters in it to eliminate UV light reflecting into the eyes. The cabinet was about $400 I think.

I bought these several years ago and use them pretty much daily.

Scott

Scott
Are they available in Aust if so who is the supplier

I forgot to mention the Australian supplier. VWR which is a scientific supplies company.

https://au.vwr.com/app/Home


Scott

David & Scott

Thankyou both for your information and advice.

Whilst the lazy part of me says buy one already made, the smart side says go with the one that will allow me to "sing from the same sheet of music" when discussing my results.

Maybe I will win Lotto and get both!

Anyway thanks again to all for their useful info.

John G

I just dug out my hand-held Lighthouse battery powered, long wavelength UV lamp, put fresh batteries in it and tried it on my eosin. The result is appalling! Virtually no visible reaction whatsoever, everything is swamped by the purple glow.



Here are two photos, the first with the Spectroline system that I currently use and the second one under identical conditions with the hand held lamp. The major difference is that the exposure for the hand held photo was several seconds, so forgive any wobbliness on my part, I don't have a tripod yet.



The first photo is from much earlier in the Eosins thread, the stamps are (from top left): G10, G27, G66 & G75.

The hand held Lighthouse ones are only about $30, but they are worse than nothing!

I'll post this in both the Eosin discussion thread and the UV lamp thread as I think it has relevance to both.


Scott

Wonderful images . Amazing.

I'm still struggling here.

365nm, that is the wavelength, my uv handheld and my uv bulb emit at 365.

The handhelds predominately are at 365.

I wonder what the filter does ?

EN-160L 365 One 6-Watt Tube with Filter Assembly
3.25" x 10.25" x 2.5"
(8.3cm x 26.0cm x 6.4cm) BLE-6T365 2F005

2f005 being the filter replacement code.
BLE-6T365 being the bulb, should be easy enough to comare this and the HPW 125W mentioned earlier.

I wonder if I could ask for another image, with the filter removed ? ( please use your uv resistant goggles )

Filters are not cheap, and by no way could we skip a build, unless of course you went to a pawn shop and bought a set of 35mm camera filters, that are now redundant and cost only about $1.

_________________
People will like you more if you stfu.

The filters on my Spectroline lamp are all built into the unit and I'd have to dismantle it to remove them. Even then I think most of the filters are in the coating of the fluorescent tube of the unit. So sorry, I can't take a photo with that set-up without the filters

You are right, the long wavelength UV lamps that we are talking about have a 365nm emission. But the emission from these lamps is a broad range of wavelengths, with only the maximum in the UV region at 365nm.

Here are a couple of graphs I pinched from the web and Wikipedia.





The first is a curve of normal human colour vision. Our vision extends down to close to 400nm which is the violet end of the rainbow. Now if you have a look at the emission spectrum of a typical black-light lamp (essentially what the hand-held Lighthouse lamp is) besides the broad UV emissions (300nm-400nm) there is a strong emission at about 430nm (violet) and weaker ones in the mid-500nm area (green). This is what gives a black-light lamp its characteristic purple glow, and this tends to mask any fluorescent emissions from the stamp.

The Spectroline equipment I have is also essentially a black-light but has filters built into the assembly that block out pretty much everything above 400nm, thus eliminating the interfering violet light.

Apologies if I got a bit too sciencey there


Scott

Perfect.

I will take this info to our UV specialist and end up with the correct lamp this time.
( hopefully he stocks the spectroline products )

Thanks.

_________________
People will like you more if you stfu.

I priced the Spectroline Enf-240c it is $319 and 6 to 8 weeks delivery time

Weird Al,

The one you mention, the ENF-240C, has two tubes, the long wavelength (365nm) one and also a short wavelength (254nm) one, each can be used independently. However, short wavelength UV (254nm) is not used for 1d red KGV work. It is used for looking at phosphor bands, with British Machins and the like I believe.

The one I bought was the EN-160L. I downloaded the spec. sheet for their range from the Spectroline web-site, I have circled the one I bought in red, the one Weird Al is looking at is circled in blue.



From memory I bought this one because it had the filters and was the largest wattage that would fit the viewing cabinet. Don't quote me, but I seem to recall that the 8W models didn't fit the cabinet.

My quote for the EN160L model from the Australian supplier was $198 (doesn't include GST or delivery).


Scott

Thanks Scott my mistake I'll get it right sooner or later.

For those in this thread that have built their own lamps, do you think that the globe that Kaygeevee pictured could be screwed into an ordinary desk lamp with the appropriate thread? It looks like it might have to relatively large as well.



The globe itself seems relatively inexpensive, but the electrical work involved in building the lamp might be an impediment to some people (me included ). Plus I wouldn't mind road-testing this globe vs. other systems.


Scott

Hi to all

The Globe that David has is a mercury vapour type and needs the additional parts such as the choke etc in order to get it activated, kind of like a fluoro tube needs a starter to get it going. At least that what I understand.

I have tried to get a similar globe but have been unsuccessful thus far as Phillips no longer make it and they appear to have not listed an alternative.

But I will keep trying.

Have just read the thread on the Italian hoard and am now looking for tea chests .

John G

Hi John, the bulb is available

Philips HPW 125W T E27
Philips HPW 125W TS E27

and you are correct, the choke is needed, some electrical suppliers will attemt to sell you a transformer
the two work in similar ways but the choke provides a specific range to power the light.

to make a lamp ~$200
the spectorline ~$200

_________________
People will like you more if you stfu.

Hi Barr_e

Thanks for that info. Will go back to the Phillips supplier and order one.

Regards

John G

So now we know that you don't have your magazines under the stairs. Where are they ????? Seapaws

I thought it was a hot topic

Users browsing this forum: barry_e, G**********w, K**********a, p***t, v******e and 76 guests

asterics, to hide the members ... 76 guests

_________________
People will like you more if you stfu.

I've often wondered why at any one time there are at least ten times as many 'guests' on-line than registered members.

Is it people doing a Google search for a particular stamp topic? Stampboards usually does rank highly in Google searches, so that must drive a lot of traffic here.


Scott

Very useful thread, this, thank you to all who have contributed. Any thoughts on where to get your viewing cabinet, starling? I emailed VWR to ask them, but haven't heard back.

Maybe I'll just be getting the lamp, and leaving the box until someone can bring one back from the States. But that sounds too sensible for me.

The model number of the viewing cabinet is CM-10.

This is the page from the VWR web-site:

https://au.vwr.com/app/catalog/Product?article_number=SPETCM-10%2FF

Not sure what their price is for it, from memory it was more expensive than the lamp ($300 or more), but I figured it would last a lifetime.

Actually I expect that the lamp itself will last a good many years, we've never replaced the ones we use at work in the laboratory and I've been there over 10 years.

They might even have a lamp + cabinet combo deal? The company that I bought mine from several years ago no longer exists (Crown Scientific), VWR bought them out. I remember Crown Scientific having a more user-friendly web-site and being more approachable from the general public.


Scott