Banging the drum for the Uglies

tonymacg · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:48:44 am

He must be spending a great deal of time on emails. I've just had this latest response:

"Dear asia-translation,

You must be a genius expert to make your opinion based on lousy scanning picture on your monitor, but do not seeing real subject of opinion and thanks for advertising your album. And do what you think is right to do, but i want to report your action to eBay as well and i`ll will want independent opinion of experts not your as a side of competition.Do you never cosider you are mith be wrong?

- rekoanan"

So we're both genius experts, eh peterh? Any more genius experts want to join the club?

I've officially reported the Bhopal stamp to eBay as a fake, because some poor fool has bid 99 cents for it.

birder · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:29:35 pm

This rekoanan is a classic. His golden words (addressed to Tony)...and I quote

I suggest you totally check your knowlege of stamps before you suggest any think

Have'nt laughed so much in ages.....

Thanks and regards.

birder · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:37:18 pm

By the way, this is the message I sent him today.

Your India stamps are forgeries. Charkhari, Poonch, Bhopal, Nawanagar, Kishengarh, Kashhmir, Nandgaon, Sirmoor all of them are fakes. Kindly do not play a fraud on innnocent buyers. Please withdraw these items immediately.

Let us wait for his reaction.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:43:32 pm

Good on you, Birder!

Perhaps if enough 'genius experts' assure him his stamps are fakes, he might start to believe us

PeterS · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 13:18:19 pm

Don't hold your breath! :roll:

tonymacg · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 13:51:39 pm

Ah, but what would you know, Peter? You're not a 'genius expert' :lol:

PeterS · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 14:15:07 pm

Nor do I claim to be. Simply call me either a genius or an expert, thanks.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 14:28:18 pm

So be it, Peter. But you are likely to be intellectually outgunned by the genius experts who hang out here :lol:

birder · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:06:06 pm

Message from Rekoanan:

I have got similar massages from your buddies, aaa.. just drop it, don`t you have other problems in your life. I`m willing to judged and examine this case by American Philatelic Society because i`m confided of souses i got my stamps from and i will challenged authenticity of stamps of your Friend of yours.

Also, some of his bidders have gone very high... I think eBay needs to be told..

boban76 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:16:27 pm

birder wrote:

Message from Rekoanan:

I have got similar massages from your buddies, aaa.. just drop it, don`t you have other problems in your life. I`m willing to judged and examine this case by American Philatelic Society because i`m confided of souses i got my stamps from and i will challenged authenticity of stamps of your Friend of yours.

Also, some of his bidders have gone very high... I think eBay needs to be told..

AAh...Birder ...he is loosing his cool...and knows being stuffed from all sides of the world
George

tonymacg · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:31:02 pm

birder wrote:

By the way, this is the message I sent him today.

Your India stamps are forgeries. Charkhari, Poonch, Bhopal, Nawanagar, Kishengarh, Kashhmir, Nandgaon, Sirmoor all of them are fakes. Kindly do not play a fraud on innnocent buyers. Please withdraw these items immediately.

Let us wait for his reaction.

Birder, only this seller's fakes from Bhopal and Kishangarh are showing up in my Saved Searches. Can you let me have the item numbers for his other lots, please?

BTW, I saw several fakes being offered by world-phil. As soon as I have the time, I'll have to contact them. They're usually more receptive than our friend rekoanan.

birder · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 18:05:21 pm

tonymacg wrote:

birder wrote:

By the way, this is the message I sent him today.

Your India stamps are forgeries. Charkhari, Poonch, Bhopal, Nawanagar, Kishengarh, Kashhmir, Nandgaon, Sirmoor all of them are fakes. Kindly do not play a fraud on innnocent buyers. Please withdraw these items immediately.

Let us wait for his reaction.

Birder, only this seller's fakes from Bhopal and Kishangarh are showing up in my Saved Searches. Can you let me have the item numbers for his other lots, please?

BTW, I saw several fakes being offered by world-phil. As soon as I have the time, I'll have to contact them. They're usually more receptive than our friend rekoanan.

Hi Tony,

Please try this link

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nkw=ind ... n=rekoanan

..Oh No !!!!! He has gone ahead and added some fresh fakes from Bussahir, Kashmir and Saurashtra etc...

Thanks and regards

tonymacg · **Posted:** Fri Mar 16, 2012 18:48:36 pm

I see it now, Birder. You're right: a whole page full of fakes.

I think all we can do is bombard eBay with messages that he's selling fakes. If enough of us do so, eBay make take action.

jadrake · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 03:24:45 am

You know you are going to make me do it aren't you. I have been avoiding ebay for a month saving money for this basement finishing..... you're killing me (and NO I can not simply go in and complain about these items without peaking and looking around - my UK dealer contacts are probably wondering what happened to me).

I am offended as an APS member that he thinks the APS will save him here. Maybe he has an APS dealer registration and we can get that suspended if these illicit activities continue. I am wondering... is he simply a iliterate imbecile who is ignorant to the complications of stamp collecting, or is he really trying to actively fraud others?

-Jason

boban76 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 03:54:32 am

jadrake wrote:

I am wondering... is he simply a iliterate imbecile who is ignorant to the complications of stamp collecting, or is he really trying to actively fraud others?

Jason
seems he's pretending he's an illeterate by complicating sentences....and I believe that he's well aware of what he does
Or a second possibility that he's dealing with Uglies for the 1st time and burning his hands

George

Safi · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 04:28:16 am

jadrake wrote:

I am wondering... is he simply a iliterate imbecile who is ignorant to the complications of stamp collecting, or is he really trying to actively fraud others?

At first, I also thought he is the former kind but when I see that he has listed two different Indian state items with the same scott number '26' I am leaning now more towards the latter... he is fishing for novice collectors here and he is catching a few too I'm afraid...

peterh · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 06:21:57 am

I have now reported all the items from rekoanan, including his latest batch - let's see what happens!

tonymacg · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 09:41:05 am

I've had yet another exchange with our friend rekoanan:

"Hi
I`m appricieate for yor opinion, but what wondering me is how you make your opinion, based on my lousy scanning and looked your computer screen? real experts stady a real stamp for long time before have any verdict. Your feedback`s telling me you are just other guy interesting and collecting stamps, not a credible expert. I have got my stamps from Mystic Stamps Company from N.Y. largest and oldest (over 100 years) stamp dealer huose in USA and on the world, having top stamps experts in house. I`m very confident they see the stamps before sell them to me, because they care very much of company reputation. So if you are 1005 sure about your opinion take action against meon eBay and please don`t send meany your opinion and descriptions what you think is wrong with my stamps (you can be wrong as well) without any solid proof or real expertise, and don`t tell me you collecting Indian stamps for 20,30 or 40 years, because this do not make you any credible expert (you maybe have some knowlege, but you don`t know everything)that all. I`m breathing whole my long life and this don`t make me on expert of oxygen of air. eBay real experts such is will make them decision in disputes like this not on members opinon or self made experts but on real experts opinon such is: American Philatelic Society or othercredible, certifield experts, (i`m willing to send my stamps for one of thouse exspertise, will you do some with your stamps and pay for a egzamination?) So intad sending me your emails ( i think you have other more sirous thinks to do in your life) with your opinons, just do what you think is right, take on action agaist me, because this look like one of terrible method of eliminaton competition.
Regards
andy"

I thought I'd better try to resolve this somehow, so I replied:

"OK: if you refuse to accept my word, and the word of other collectors of long standing, I will make you this offer:

Withdraw all your Indian States stamps from eBay, and send them to the Indian States Expertizing Service Inc., PO Box 8569, Cranston RI 02920. Their Web site is www.isesinc.com, and their email address is experts@isesinc.com If you check, you will see that (AFAIK) none of the three expert members of the panel have contacted you about these stamps.

I will buy every stamp you submit that comes back with a certificate of genuineness from ISES at full Scott or Gibbons catalogue value - whichever you choose.

If you wish to defend yourself, you might like to join in the discussion of your stamps on Stampboards, at www.stampboards.com (at viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8480&start=5750). I'm quite happy to repeat my offer to you there, so that others will know about it, and my reputation will be on the line."

and I gave my name and address.

From our correspondence, I strongly suspect that rekoanan has bought these stamps from Mystic, having blind faith in the mystical powers of Mystic to infallibly identify genuine Uglies, and in the hope of on-selling them for a profit. I also suspect he's beginning to have doubts

boban76 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 16:13:14 pm

tonymacg wrote:

I`m breathing whole my long life and this don`t make me on expert of oxygen of air.

That sounds like a real expert!!!!

psphani · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 16:34:11 pm

Guys i just received a good collection of Bhor SG1 to SG3 mint and used stamps.
If anybody is interested i can scan and post it. I did join the india study circle 2 days back, still have to submit the application form (although i already paid for the membership)

tonymacg · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 16:44:41 pm

Was that the collection that sold on eBay recently? A very nice lot, with some excellent stamps in it. I was very sorry I didn't bid harder on it!

It would be a very good idea to scan some of the better items, and post them here for others to see.

And, to change the subject entirely, I'm hoping to receive a very nice - possibly unique - Barwani item soon. I have a scan of it, but I'd rather wait until I have it back in my hands before posting.

psphani · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 16:47:20 pm

tonymacg wrote:

Was that the collection that sold on eBay recently? A very nice lot, with some excellent stamps in it. I was very sorry I didn't bid harder on it!

It would be a very good idea to scan some of the better items, and post them here for others to see.

And, to change the subject entirely, I'm hoping to receive a very nice - possibly unique - Barwani item soon. I have a scan of it, but I'd rather wait until I have it back in my hands before posting.

Yes its the same collection. Its got a pretty good write up. Ok let me start scanning...

Safi · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 17:07:38 pm

Yes, good to be back at discussing and sharing Indian states stamps, look forward to seeing both the Bhor material and the unique Bharwani item.

psphani · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 17:53:53 pm

First time posting images. I could get high resolution scan of 2 stamps. Rest i have provided the links.

http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg6 ... G_0001.jpg

http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg6 ... G_0002.jpg

http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg6 ... G_0003.jpg

http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg6 ... G_0004.jpg

tonymacg · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 21:28:01 pm

psphani, I doubt that those full-page scans would have been very useful anyway. It might be better to scan the relevant more interesting parts.

A couple of comments:

- The village cancels seem to be pretty scarce. These are all the ones I've found over a number of years of looking:

Its worth noting that only one is on the 1 Anna. And incidentally, while it proves nothing at all, I'd expect - or at least wouldn't be surprised to see - genuine usages to be cut-to-shape.

- I'm sure there were different papers, in addition to the 'native laid' of Gibbons used. This one

is on European laid paper, and with the Poona CDS, almost certainly came off a combination cover. If only ...

- I'm not so sure about the oil colour theory. As you can see, several of my village cancels have been soaked, and the colour hasn't run. I'm sure it would on some Bhor stamps, but it doesn't seem to do it on all. There are watercolour printings from other Indian States that exhibit the same colour-fastness, but I have no explanation for it at present. BTW, I'd be very doubtful indeed about that 'oil colour' 1 Anna.

peterh · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 22:47:59 pm

Nice Bhor! I was watching this as well,but went too high for me.

And looking forward to seeing your unique Barwani item Tony.

BTW - result on rekoanan - all his forgeries have been withdrawn from eBay.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2012 23:09:54 pm

peterh wrote:

BTW - result on rekoanan - all his forgeries have been withdrawn from eBay.

Hallelujah! I wonder if he's planning to take up my offer about sending them to Sandeep Jaiswal to be expertised. I had to dig rather deep for my Barwani, but I'm not scared that I'll have to dig deeper to pay for rekoanan's rubbish.

psphani · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 02:47:54 am

Actually the bhor cost me way high than i expected. So how do you find the difference between oil and water colour?

tonymacg · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:09:20 am

On the bidding for the Bhor, I put in a bid I thought would knock out all but the most determined competition. And as I was negotiating over the Barwani item at the time, I didn't want to get into too astronomical a bidding war

That said, I still think you got a good buy.

Telling the watercolour from the oil printings can be easy, at the extreme ends. In Jammu & Kashmir, which was roughly contemporary, and was also printing onto native papers, the watercolour inks tend to stand proud of the paper:

This is an enhanced image of an SG 22, but you can clearly see the ink sitting in ridges on the paper. The oil colours tend to sink into the paper much more, and can produce rather smeared prints:

The classic test for watercolour is to moisten a rag or piece of paper and wipe it over the surface of the stamp, to see if colour comes off. Not for the faint-hearted, and not always reliable - unless you rub fairly vigorously!

In the end, though, we often rely on the reports of the early first-hand collectors, who were able to ask the printers directly about techniques. This wouldn't preclude the possibility of an occasional oil colour printing from Bhor: the printers might not have thought to mention it, or it might have occurred after the collector had gathered the information.

Could we have a highest possible resolution scan of the ½ Anna that is said to be printed in oil? I don't know if it would be conclusive one way or the other, but it would certainly be interesting to have a close look at it.

mukulgarga · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 13:51:54 pm

Hello Tony
Are these Genuine cancels

.1 pice is blue green I think

.What's your opinion?

Mukul

tonymacg · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 14:20:26 pm

Mukulgarga, if you're a member of the India Study Circle, you will have recently received the Circle's journal, India Post, which has a long article on the cancellations of Jhalawar. (If you aren't yet a member, well ... that shows why you should be

)

Anyway, the short answer is that the second looks OK. The first and last stamps have unusually small parts of the cancellation showing. Jhalawar typically went in for real socked-on-the-nose cancellations:

so when I see a small part corner cancellation, like on your third stamp, I'm immediately suspicious. From what I can see of it, it could be OK. It isn't one of the well-established fake cancellations, most of which look nothing like the real thing:

I think your 1 Paisa is the blue-green shade. It isn't quite as easy as it might seem, because there are some quite blueish yellow-greens as well

Of course, a forger would be crazy to put a fake cancellation on this stamp. It's much more valuable unused.

psphani · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 15:46:00 pm

Here is the scan of the oil color printings of bhor 1/2 and 1 anna.

mukulgarga · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 17:15:29 pm

Thanks Tony.No I am not yet the member of the ISC but would now go in for it.
Mukul

tonymacg · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 23:03:46 pm

psphani wrote:

Here is the scan of the oil color printings of bhor 1/2 and 1 anna.

Well, I can say definitely that the 1 Anna is a forgery, and not a good one at that. Compare the first letters of the first and second lines in this genuine (watercolour) SG 2 with the purported oil colour printing:

I'm also very doubtful about the ½ Anna. Compare the outer rings particularly on this SG 1

with those on the oil colour printing. They don't match.

All of which is not to say that oil colour printings of Bhor don't exist: I just don't believe these two are. I think they're forgeries.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 23:10:43 pm

Mukul, for a serious Indian States collector, membership in the ISC is just not negotiable. You'll probably be scared to death when you read your first India Post by the depth of knowledge there. I was, and I still often am. But there's just so much vital information you'll never find anywhere else. Don't forget to order the archive CD of India Post as well. It will give you food for thought for the next 10 years

birder · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 23:46:40 pm

psphani wrote:

Here is the scan of the oil color printings of bhor 1 anna.

The One Anna is a crude forgery since most of the characters are mirror images of the originals.

On the original "Pa. Sa. " standing for Pant Sachiv can be read clearly in the first line. In your forged version the characters are strange.

Again, in the original, "Ki. Yukk" standing for "Kimat Yek Anna" can be read clearly in the next line. No such luck in the forged version.

Thanks and regards.

tonymacg · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 00:12:41 am

Thinking about these Bhor forgeries brought back memories I normally try to suppress ... So, confession being good for the soul, or so they say:

I bought this cover

a few years ago from a smaller European auction house, on the basis of a less-than-life-size photo in the catalogue. It seemed cheap for a Bhor cover. Of course it was too good to be true. The whole thing - stamp and cancellations - is a fake. As soon as I received it I knew, but I tried to convince myself that, maybe, somehow, despite everything, it was genuine.

Now I can admit it: I was thoroughly had :oops:

opkedia52 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 02:21:31 am

boban76 wrote:

opkedia52 wrote:

Is the overprint on this Cochin stamp qualifies for double overprint

opkedia

Certainly not...its a jump print which is fairly common for these typeset surcharges,the same time your stamp qualifies for a constant variety "horizontal bar under numeral "8"

George

What is the rarity quotient for this type of printing error because SG cataluoge mention very high value for double printing.

opkedia

boban76 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 04:13:01 am

opkedia52 wrote:

boban76 wrote:

opkedia52 wrote:

Is the overprint on this Cochin stamp qualifies for double overprint

opkedia

Certainly not...its a jump print which is fairly common for these typeset surcharges,the same time your stamp qualifies for a constant variety "horizontal bar under numeral "8"

George

What is the rarity quotient for this type of printing error because SG cataluoge mention very high value for double printing.

opkedia

Dear OPK

Most probably a sheet or two...the maximum...however I dont beleive SG has shown justification for just 275 pounds for such a rare variety....maybe they have their own marketing strategies
George

boban76 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 04:19:35 am

Forgot to mention....the total printing for this stamp(SG O21) was 7500 sheets ie. 7500 x 48 = 3,60,000 stamps

George

boban76 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 04:29:24 am

And another much under catalogued stamp , SG -47b with variety capital "P" instead of small "p". catalogued at 22 pounds for last 2 years......who'll believe that this one is one of the total 1000 stamps printed????

George

tonymacg · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 09:24:24 am

George, I don't have SG 47b in my spreadsheet, but I do have SG 48a (the type 13 'Pies' for 'pies') mint. It was £45 in 2000; this year, it's £80. I wonder if mint are appreciating more rapidly than used. That wouldn't be surprising in the early days of a price boom. As collectors grow more sophisticated, I'd expect used prices to start to catch up to an extent.

jadrake · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:11:38 pm

And young collectors like me who feel no inclination toward uglies other than they are facinating (ie. no cultural ties) get to feel the burden of the price increases on our wallets.

Oh well, at least they are hard to find along the way in mint!

-Jason

tonymacg · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 14:33:03 pm

Jason, George makes a good point about the Uglies in general. Print runs for so many of these stamps really were pathetically small.

Own a Cochin SG 47b, and you own one thousandth of the total possible examples. As I've just been digging around in my Barwani file, this cover of Barwani SG 35aB

has 0.5% of the total possible examples of this stamp. Goodness knows what the actual survival rate was: not large, I think.

For Barwani, used examples are always scarcer than mint. This is the reverse of the normal situation for Cochin. However, prices for used Barwani don't truely reflect their scarcity: mint are still overpriced relative to used, in most cases.

So follow your nose - or heart - in collecting the Uglies. This

may not look as neat as this

but I think it wins hands down on postal history.

mukulgarga · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 18:06:43 pm

Chhabra to Tonk Registered

tonymacg · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 18:49:08 pm

Now if only that cover had been sent using Tonk State Post Office stamps ...

mukulgarga · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 19:08:16 pm

Like this? Tonk To Jaipur

hutch · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 19:56:56 pm

Hi everyone, a little late I know, but I also sent a message to Rekoanan,very simple with no mention of fogeries or anything else!

"Hi, I was just wondering why you have listed this as a Jind stamp when it is obviously from Kishangarh?
Thanks for your time, Anne"

Well, his response was interesting...probably because of all you "Lone Rangers" out there! :lol:

and interesting as I had never had any other contact with him bar that one email!

"Thaks for the info, you was absolutley right, but your previous message look to me like acciusation me of selling forgery and yopu don`t showing any proof stamp you show me was real. I make huge mistake so i`m very sorry for a words i send to you, please accept my deep apology. Ovcourse ill do nesseserly changes.
Best regards
Andy"

Interesting to note that he not only changed the listing but within 24 hours, the listing had been removed!

Anne

tonymacg · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 20:38:38 pm

mukulgarga wrote:

Like this? Tonk To Jaipur

Very nice - but still using British Indian stamps

tonymacg · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 20:40:14 pm

hutch wrote:

Hi everyone, a little late I know, but I also sent a message to Rekoanan,very simple with no mention of fogeries or anything else!

"Hi, I was just wondering why you have listed this as a Jind stamp when it is obviously from Kishangarh?
Thanks for your time, Anne"

Well, his response was interesting...probably because of all you "Lone Rangers" out there! :lol:

and interesting as I had never had any other contact with him bar that one email!

"Thaks for the info, you was absolutley right, but your previous message look to me like acciusation me of selling forgery and yopu don`t showing any proof stamp you show me was real. I make huge mistake so i`m very sorry for a words i send to you, please accept my deep apology. Ovcourse ill do nesseserly changes.
Best regards
Andy"

Interesting to note that he not only changed the listing but within 24 hours, the listing had been removed!

Anne

Well, at least you extracted an apology from him. He tried to tell me in one of his emails that Jind issued stamps inscribed Kishangarh :lol:


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