Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

Hi,

The long tooth on the left is perfectly normal, as can be seen in the scan below of a genuine 1 G:



I know this one is genuine, as it was purchased from the Philatelic Service at time of issue. In the examples I have, there is sometimes a long tooth on the right, sometimes on the left, and sometimes balanced.

Here is a subtracted image of the first fake 1.50 G, and my 1G (as provided by the program Stamp Compare discussed elsewhere on Stampboards. Thanks Simon).



I note that the dots on the portrait line up well, but seem to be a slightly different size. Also the coloured background is slightly wider on the forgery. Finally, the perforations, while the same gauge, don't look the same.

Frank_king

The reason I suggested that the perfs looked wrong (a few posts ago), was that unless those stamps were peel and stick self adhesive stamps, you cannot have those perfect die cut perfs with no feathering of the paper fibres.
Not even scissor's will leave that perfect finish.

So start by examining the issues that were never released as peel and stick. If they were only issued as traditional gummed stamps then the perfs must be fake. The 44 Eurocent ones - were they issued as peel and stick? If not, then they to are obviously fake.


The Queen's head stamp would have to be about the easiest stamps in the world to fake and any quality inkjet printer would have no trouble printing that stamp.

An even closer look would be to examine the paper itself, the size of the ink spots, the perfs, even the pigment colouring of the background. Also any residue of gum or adhesive on the back of the stamp.

But at a glance - it's the perfectly impossible perfs that shows them up.

_________________
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

As far as I can tell by searching through my catalogue, is that the Beatrix stamps were first issued in peel and stick in 2001, which was ten years after they switched from the black portrait on coloured background, to the coloured portrait on white background.

The illustrated Beatrix stamps were never issued peel and stick.




I agree that those die cut looking perfs are impossible.

The 44 Eurocent stamps were issued peel and stick.

Frank_king

Frank,

the Beatrix coils may have the same wide left tooth as a genuine as obviously the forgerers started to take excellent pictures/scans of original ones!! The die-cut perforations at the top and bottom are simply impossible to get with the genuine stuff!

The 44c Numeral is also fake as - with a closer look - the utmost but one teeth - both at the left and at the right - show fibers! At these point they were joined together on the printing sheet before kiss-die cutting ! All stamps are in offset-litho instead of in photogravure! The screen of the turquoise green is tricky and might fool you!









So far I have seen the following forged stamps:

44c Numeral as sheet stamp - 4-sided kiss-die cut perf.
1.G50, 2G,2G50, 6G50, 7G Queen Beatrix as coilstamps - 2-sided kiss die cut perf.
€1.00 and €3.00 Queen Beatrix as sheet stamps - 4 sided kiss-die cut perf..

The three 4-sided kiss-die cut stamps show the "torn" teeth!

to be continued ...

So Rein and others do you feel the Queen stamps abobe are GUNUINE, or fake?

I am writing about this in my next Stamp News column and not ssure why anyone would fake an out of date 1.5G stamp ... which has a low Euro face value.

Those Queens Head coil stamps issued as traditional gummed stamps cannot have those "perfect" die cut simulated perfs. Even the 1.5G.

Someone above noted that they were never issued in those colours as peel and stick "coils".

_________________
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

If they are forgeries, which having seen the above close ups I am leaning towards, then coil versions of the Queen Beatrix definitives would be easy to forge - just two colours, and perforations at the top and bottom (just guillotine the left and right hand sides). Much easier to forge than a stamp with perforations on all four sides and printed in four colours.

Perhaps they used a mixture of real and forged stamps?

_________________
Chris de Haer
Author of 'A Closer Look at Modern Australian Stamps' in Stamp News Australia.
Latest news on my blog http://stamps.chrisdehaer.com.au Follow me on Facebook twitter.com/stampchris

Glen,

all are fake but for the commemorative!













The 44c has the one but last tooth torn:





The 44c has the one but first tooth torn:



to be continued ...

P.S.

I have them all here in front of me! All printed in offset-litho instead of photogravure

Great info Rein .. so this stamp is a total forgery?

Glen

Glen,

YES!

And so are the following two:









Similar torn teeth as with the 44c and notice the tiny cut in the corner teeth where the corner should have two teeth with a arc in between!

Superb scans thanks Rein.

So that strange top right corner perf cannot exist on any of the official stamps?

But occurs on all the Queen fakes?

Glen,

you got the picture!

good night!

Compare the teeth!










Which one is real!?

to be continued ...

Or details left out!





to be continued ...

I was one of the people to buy these stamps, and I have quite some left to. I ordered some simple equipment check on the details mentioned here for myself. If anyone is interested in some of these stickers and wants see them for themselves, please contact me.

Rein! Thanks for the detailed scans and analysis. Is there anything you can say about the way these "stamps" have been attached to the label? Are they peel and stick, or do they have real gom on the back?

The stamps I could study so far are not mine! So I do not want to risk and damage them ...

The answer is - I have no idea!

groetjes, Rein

PS

A bi-lingual report - Dutch and English:

http://www.galeoptix.nl/fila/ned/nl_2011_fraude.htm

So these were being offered for sale on the white labels, under face value, via sites like ebay it seems?

Do we know how much % below face value was being offered?

Do we feel the 10G blue large Queen was fake, as shown earlier on in thread?

The 10g seems rather safe! But I have not seen it myself!



to be continued ...

The larger format single colour 10G and 5G Queens heads must be fake.
Look at the perfs - especially along the longer edge, they aren't real.
Some are almost diamond cuts ^^^^ others a rounded tips.

_________________
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

Greg,

the picture is not good enough to tell!



The number of teeth is OK - 16 horizontally, 25 vertically.

I had my doubts about the 44c, but after having it in my hands I could be convinced!

to be continued ...

Even with a blown up fuzzy shot of the same image you can see that the perfs are not right and it even looks like the same die was used to cut both values of the stamp.

You can't have "pyramids" and"scallop's" as perfs on the same stamp.

They are not regular gummed stamp perfs and they are too inconsistent for peel and stick die cuts as well.

_________________
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

The 44c exists in two versions - legally - and were sold differently:

- coil stamps in photogravure
- business sheets in offset-litho

all stamps kiss-die cut, although the stamps from the business sheets always had a tab at their left side:





to be continued ...

The 44c exists in two versions - legally - and were sold differently:

- coil stamps in photogravure
- business sheets in offset-litho

all stamps kiss-die cut, although the stamps from the business sheets always had a tab at their left side and the tab can be torn off but then you will see the fibers:





The green parts have no screen what so ever!



to be continued ...

So the selling price was 30% under face value?

The red prices seem even less than 30% off?

Can you add some images please?

_________________
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

I don't have a scanner to make such images as above. Are photo's of the stamps of any use? I can make these later this week.

Quite a riddle why they left out these details????

Any original displaying the grey lines as high as shown above the word "Nederland" should automatically show the forks at the left as well!?

to be continued ....

Mentioned this thread in my next "Stamp News" and "Philatelic Exporter" column -

http://www.glenstephens.com/snfebruary12.html

Glen

Making an educated guess at the Dutch language, and doing some math, I'm thinking:

The first column says "TNT price" (since TNT owns the Dutch PO do they not?)

The second column is "your price"

The third column (in red) is "how much you save"

So 30% (or pretty close to) off face on everything as Glen said?

_________________
Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

The flyer says:

Are you sending a basic package, or a registered one? Send it 30% cheaper using stamps bought bij verzendpro.nl. THE specialist in postage stamps for sending packages.

The new price list will give even higher discounts.

Price list per first October 2010

Two tables listing the following columns
PO price, your price, your discount, order number
Registered outside of Europe
Registered within the Netherlands

For other prices click here to go to our website.

Below you can see a picture showing you an example of what your package or letter would look like. On the right you can see a picture of a label as we will deliver it to you.


------

The issue is still that there are companies that are doing this exact thing with real stamps, and it's perfectly legal in those cases. They have been killed off by the harsh statements from the Dutch PO, saying that all stamps stuck to labels, or sold below face value, are fake and will not be accepted. This is obviously not the case, and people and companies got hurt by that.

The PO might be able to introduce a regulation that says stamps must be affixed directly to the envelope/parcel they are being used to mail, that's fair.

But to try to prevent the buying & selling of stamps below face value is impossible, one might go so far as to say illegal, in a free-market.

Government bonds are traded on the stock market at any price, and their value freely moves. Accounts receivable or bad debts are sold by companies to raise cash.

If someone has a bunch of mint postage and is willing to part with it for 90% or 80% or 50% of face value, because they'd rather have the cash to spend on other things instead of holding the stamps to slowly use on their own mail, that's their choice.

Its the post office's responsibility to monitor the mailstream to detect counterfeits, they can't outright prevent the use of stamps or ban the buying and selling of them.

In Canada a few years ago (about 6-7 years ago) there was a small flood of counterfeit $100 banknotes. So every store started posting notices at the cashier saying "we do not accept $100 bills". Fine, you can choose what methods of payment you'll accept from customers. But the banks couldn't refuse and $100 banknote for deposit or exchange, they just had to train their staff how to identify a fake.

_________________
Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

That the forgers went through a bit of work to make it look real proves the Business stamp of 2007.

Even the phosfor has been added to the stamp.

On the left the real stamp and on the right the forgery.

_________________
Knowledge is Power, but it is worthless when you don't share it!

Congratulations Rein on this thread being voted thread of the month February 2012

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8100&start=950

At that price, I'll take as many as you have.

_________________
With kind regards, Jim

This story is getting stranger.

I had a chat with the post office clerks yesterday about this matter. They were not allowed to discuss this matter with anyone (by oral directive) but since their post office is to be closed and they will be sacked they couldn't care less.

For what it is worth here is what they told me.

Postnl has (had?) an agreement with Verzendpro. This firm is supplied by Postnl with remainder stamps, which are in stock (by the millions) at Postnl. There was an agreement on the minimum market price.

Another part of the deal between Postnl and Verzendpro was that Postnl also supplied the barcodes for packages, for the packet stamp assembly. These are genuine too.

Bussiness went well for Verzendpro, but they wanted to expand. They started to act as a wholesaler, selling to increasingly more internet based shops.

Then the two clerks started arguing.

Clerk1:
Then it went terribly wrong. Either Verzendpro broke the deal regarding the minimum market price, or did not (or not enough) control the price levels of the webshops. Prices were destabilizing the system. As a result Postnl was yelled at in The Hague by some high ranking officials.

Clerk 2:
Verzendpro simply did not fit in the new, post reorganisation picture.
An investigation is cheaper then a buy-off.

Questions:
-what was in it for Postnl? Are current issue numbers as low as they are because they first have to get rid of the old stamps which are jam packed at Postnl?
-What are the costs of having stamps designed and printed, higher then selling old ones?
-Do unsold stamps represent a value in the balance sheet of Postnl. If so what numbers are we talking?
-Postnl is reorganising, did Verzendpro not fit in the future profile?

_________________
Arno

Now I am totally confused.

I assume that PostNL is the "offocial" Netherlands Post (or whatever it's called). But who or what is Verzendpro. And since PostNL was supplying Verzendpro with stamps, are these actually forgeries, or simply official different "official" printings that were never actually released generally because earlier stocks were still available, and simply warehoused and then passed on to Verzendpro for discount resale as postage .

What a mess this is, depending on the reliability of your source, and my understanding of what you said.

Norm

_________________
Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

First of all there are no real post offices in the Netherlands since 27 October 2011!

These days only service points in supermarkets, bookshops etc. are there to serve the people, as far you get a service. The people behind these service counters are the employers of the company who has that service point!

I doubt about the source of the information in this case is reliable.

_________________
Knowledge is Power, but it is worthless when you don't share it!

I think Arno is missing the point and so are the "postal clerks". Many of the stamps being sold were fake, not remainders.

"Postal clerks", seem to have a lot of "insider" knowledge... or not?

_________________
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

I always take what postal clerks say with a pinch of salt, but there is often some truth in what they say (though you have to work out what is true at what is gossip/rumour).

Can anybody confirm if the Dutch post office plans to invalidate stamps inscribed with values in guilders? Remember, the Dutch post office is privatised, so selling off old stamps at a percentage of face, knowing that after a certain date they can't be used for postage makes some sense. Otherwise they have to pay for storage, and then the eventual destruction of the stock, which all costs money, and has no potential profit.

The only problem is that they have to carry the mail with these discounted stamps. However, since stamped mail is probably only a small proportion of all the mail sent, it is possible that in the end there's no real loss. Australia Post has to keep money back to take into account all the postage that is out there, and which may potentially be used ($62.5 million for the 2010/11 financial year), so no doubt the Dutch post office does as well.

Of course, this doesn't answer the question about the potentially fake stamps - there might be some different printings (those who collect Dutch stamps, know that at times the Dutch have made special printings of some issues for a particular company, or organisation), but it doesn't explain so many different varieties.

_________________
Chris de Haer
Author of 'A Closer Look at Modern Australian Stamps' in Stamp News Australia.
Latest news on my blog http://stamps.chrisdehaer.com.au Follow me on Facebook twitter.com/stampchris

They might have made different printings and reprints, but I doubt they lost the perfing machinery!

_________________
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

Chris, Rein has shown above there were not "potential" fake stamps but GUARANTEED fakes!

I wrote on this recently -

http://www.glenstephens.com/snfebruary12.html




All but one Netherlands stamps here are FAKE - modern postal forgeries

My guess would be Verzendpro became greedy. They produced, or acquired from the producer, the forgeries, and mixed them with genuine stamps on the shipping labels.

The Netherlands post office is owned by the courier TNT is it not. As a corporate, the idea of clearing out stamp-stock in the warehouses at a discount from face would be plausible. Have some bean counters somewhere run the figures, and if it costs more to warehouse them and possibly have to pay for destruction, than you would 'lose' by selling them off as discount postage, go ahead. Accounting 101 teaches about inventory and cashflow, you have to roll over your stock not have it sitting around.

_________________
Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

TNT no longer own PostNL. They split up the parcel and letter division up last year. Making PostNL a complete company on it self, without being attached in any way to TNT.

TNT is recently bought by UPS!

_________________
Knowledge is Power, but it is worthless when you don't share it!

It is impossible for PostNL to demonitize the stamps at this point. The postal law from 1989 (and current on this topic) is pretty clear in this that all stamps issued from 1977 till now (plus the queen Juliana 1969 issue) are still valid for postage. For PostNL to do this means that the law needs to be changed and with the current economic and political situation in the Netherlands I expect this not going to be changed in on a short term!

_________________
Knowledge is Power, but it is worthless when you don't share it!

As per my earlier post, who or what is Verzendpro ?

Norm

_________________
Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

Verzendpro is (I asume more was) a company that sold valid (guilder) stamps below face value through internet to any body who wanted to buy. What I understood a lot of small retail businesses that had webshops used this company to earn a extra 33% on postage.

But as it turned out Verzendpro sold fake stamps.

What I understood from the news articles is that PostNL seized the owners bank accounts, house etc. till a courtcase decide what the verdict(s) is/are.

What realy interresting is that the owner of Verzendpro clames to be scammed by a nother company named Vago BV in Sittard. Strange enough there is no single reaction of that company at all!

That is all what is know to me at this moment and we have to wait till the news is telling us more since it is very quite now.

_________________
Knowledge is Power, but it is worthless when you don't share it!

I wish I had one of the covers! I find postal forgeries fascinating.

In addition to stamp culture's post.

This is the content management system which contains the site of Verzendpro, still online:

http://verzendpro.cms.nederland.net/pagina/bedrijf_verzendpro_postzegelgroothandel_nederland/index.html

Company data of Verzendpro.nl
Address:
Rijksweg noord 63 B
6131 CJ Sittard (L)
Nederland
Buss.:
KvK: 14052892 | BTW.Nr: NL804455971B01
Bank: ING Postbank | RekeningNr. 5760204 | Iban: NL79INGB0005760204 | Bic: INGBNL2A |

National chamber of commerce number of Verzendpro as published on their website: 14052892. When looked up in the database of the Chamber however it says: VAGO BV.

_________________
Arno

Most interesting address.

Typing that addess into google it gives me a Pizzeria

_________________
Knowledge is Power, but it is worthless when you don't share it!