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I have just come across an auction item on eBay which has just ended.

It was listed by a Danish seller, "her-er-jeg" who uploaded two images; the stamp itself and a Brandon Expert Committee certificate.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140727029904

The certificate states that the stamp is Hong Kong (Apr 1 1898) $1 on 96c grey-black SG53a, and is genuine. (This may be Scott #70 - excuse me if I'm wrong)

Now this stamp is as rare as a Howard Hughes handshake! It is priced at £3750 (Gibbons 2004).

Curiously, the seller did not "pump it up" in his own item description - as I would have done!

When I looked at the stamp image, I thought it looked rather olive-green. On closer examination, I could see that the year part of the date slug was 1886.

So how then does a stamp issued in 1898 get an 1886 cancellation? (Apart from the obvious and illogical backdating).

Now if you scroll up the catalogue to SG 42 (Scott 55 ?) you will find the description 1885 (Sept) $1 on 96c grey-olive), catlogued at £60.

Amazingly, this stamp attracted 11 bids and sold for £210 (US$335). I would imagine the buyer could not believe his good fortune at getting SG53a for a snip! But methinks there will be tears at bedtime.

Apart from the idiocy of the muppet who bought this, I find it almost impossible to believe that the "expert committee", namely David Brandon of Guildford, United Kingdom, could have dropped this clanger!

As a final point, does anybody else know of any other examples of inept certification?

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Clive

I dont know anything about the stamp, but I read the datestamp as an inverted 1898.

Brian

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UK ATM Philately-
THE Modern Collecting Alternative

Http://www.postagelabelsuk.com

It's probably fair to say that among collectors of classic GB material, Brandon certificates aren't taken very seriously. I saw one which misplated an 1841 2d blue (even I could have plated that one, there are only two possibilities!). How well they do on other classic material I'm not sure, but I believe their original field of expertise was modern errors and varieties.

That being said, as postagelabelsuk says, this could well be an inverted date slug. I don't know what the shades are supposed to look like, but it's always difficult to be sure from a scan anyway. The price would be significantly lowered by the reperf at left, although the fact that it's a Treaty Ports usage should have boosted it (incidentally, before a mod slaps you down you might want to copy the scans on the listing to Photobucket and post them here to preserve them).

Mod Comment.

Since eBay images softly and silently vanish away after 90 days, please post scans of the material you wish to discuss in thread.





Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

Longstanding members will know that Brandon certificates have come under scrutiny a number of times, and found wanting:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17333&p=623741&hilit=Brandon#p623741

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14512&p=545781&hilit=Brandon#p545781

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4539&p=469678&hilit=Brandon#p469678

I think the "8" in the date slug is orientated correctly, but the "6" is suspiciously like an inverted "9".

Ignoring the date slug right or wrong, how is that a "grey-black" stamp?

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

Gibbons have a note after SG 53 the the need for accurate checking of shades re 53/53a and the common SG 42 - grey olive - cat £85.

Presumably Brandons forgot to read it!

I see plenty of Olive in this scan - and if SG 42 was issued 1885 and this cancel is 1886, and SG 53 was issued in 1890s, I'd not spend more than 10 quid on a SG 42 with a repair. So the ebay "bargain hunter" paid about TWENTY times too much at £210.

Well, given the strange names people gave to shades in the 19th century, anything's possible.

Side by side like that makes it clearer even given the vagaries of scans. I'm wondering now if the eventual buyer just ignored the certificate entirely and bid on the basis of the Shanghai cancel, depending on how rare that is!

Actually, the Shanghae Treaty Port cancel on SG 42 is not much of a factor, only a £10 premium over a normal stamp.

See Gibbons #Z805.

I have to agree, the 1885 $1 on 96c. Grey Olive,

Brandon's should have realised the date before writing the certificate,

David B.

My apologies for pasting a link to eBay and not doing things properly; I've still got my "L" plates on!

It's rather comforting to see that I'm not alone when it comes to judging catalogue colour/shade descriptions of HK material. I guess this is quite common in other country's material too.

The black/grey-black/grey-olive shade descriptions are completely inadequate. As are the dull-rose/rose/rose-lake/rose-pink shades combined with carmine and aniline carmine. Similarly; grey-green and yellowish-green.

These last two shades are probably the most wrongly attributed shades I encounter, mainly due to the fugitive inks used and gum toning.

All of these are bad enough when comparing the actual stamps but even worse when viewing scans online, as so much material is affected by soaking and light bleaching and humidity.

However, all of this is a distraction from the original point about certification or "expertising".

It has raised a question in my mind: Who expertises the expert

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Clive

The last few pages of the Michel-Spezial catalogs for Germany contain not only a list of prüfer by issue(s) and time period, but the rigorous requirements for membership.

Another section cites the way the prüfers' name appears on the stamp, what different positions mean, how to detect forged proof-marks, etc.

Wish I could translate some of this for everyone, but as Mark Twain famously said, "all the verbs are at the end."

But the Germans truly take expertizing to the limits! Whether they're accurate en masse, I don't know, but they AIN'T cheap!

That is one of the reasons Glen started this Board. One of the answers is, to quote from The Simpsons

"We Do. We Do"

Stampboarders do what we can. Everything can't be monitored - it's all too much for the limited resources and members free spare time. But we help in the examples that are raised here, as this one was.

Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

Absolutely. There are some very very smart people on this board. I've been at stamps for over 60 years now, and on the great totem pole of knowledge, I am still carved just above the dog's (raised) leg, comfortable until a bigger dog comes along, but never secure, and nowhere near the top where eagles soar.

To the many post-ers, I'll paraphrase Rod Stewart, and concede, "...If I listened long enough to you, I'd a find a way to believe that it's all true..."

Great episode!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_the_Great

Carry on.

Andrew

As the 8 of the year slug has a smaller loop at its top, the year must be (non-inverted) 98 rather than 86.

Phil

The olive coloured stamp issued in 1885 and cancelled in 1886, fits perfectly with what this stamp actually seems to be and not what the certificate says and not a date invert either.

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

The court of public opinion?

Muck up certs too often, and a highly-forged item (ie. an ovpt) being sold with only a cert from that expert will be taken with a grain of salt. As was discussed for example in the Plate 77 thread, go to the PF in NYC for USA material, but the BPA in London for UK or British Empire. Experts can't be experts in everything.

I've seen items from all over the place being sold with certs from some of the old-time experts, ie. Diena. Can someone really have a reference library that spans Line Engraved UK to Cape triangles to Japan Kobons?

Roasting by philatelic associations could be a way of keeping expertisers in check. If you stubbornly stand by a wrong cert, that would be grounds to lose your membership. If you admit your mistake and revoke the cert, all's well, you've eaten your humble pie. But too many wrong certs will cast doubt on all your opinions, just as cases of coroners getting a few cases wrong sent investigators back to look at every case that person had handled.

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Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

"As the 8 of the year slug has a smaller loop at its top, the year must be (non-inverted) 98 rather than 86."

Oops - I meant to write that it should be 86, not 98!! One inversion too many. Sorry.

Phil

It was fairly common for an inverted 8 in the date slugs. It is just a matter of inserting it upside down,

I gave up on David Brandon certificates years ago when I saw a Niger Coast overprint with his certificate, Blind Freddy would have known it was bad,

David B.

Whilst mulling over this topic, I took a backward step and pondered this:

Assuming the seller must have some reasonable philatelic knowledge; he sells stamps, he knows how to submit stamps for expertising (one could reasonably accept it was him, as the the date of the cert. was 5th March 2012). What caused him to submit it?

Surely one doesn't go to such lengths and expense until basic research is carried out? Like, scouring the numerous catalogues available (even the awful Stanley Gibbons online version), even past auction catalogues.

Why would anybody home in on the 1898 issue of this $1 on 96c in the catalogue, when there is another issue listed earlier, particularly as the cancellation date (to the casual observer) is 1886?

Why would this seller NOT emphasise the rarity of this stamp, when in previous listings he has used the word rarity on a least one occasion?

In this instance, he modestly used the phrase "nice classic stamp"! Well I've got some nice classic stamps in the £10 - £500 range. I have some of greater value, but I wouldn't use that description if I wanted to sell them.

I guess I am becoming a tad cynical in my old age, but I can't help think that there is more here than meets the eye!

Or do you think I should calm down in a cool dark coal bunker for a while?

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Clive

Considering that this episode was all about getting rid of garbage, it's more appropriate than I originally recalled.

[/off topic]

Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

For those interested, but not sure on the colours. This is the grey-olive, [SG42 & Z805] and the e-bay buyer could have had both the Shanghai and local for less than what he paid on e-bay...........and with, apart from a few short ones on the local. Original perfs!




Huanga.

David B - In some types of cancel, I'm sure you are correct, but in this sort I understand the year digits were normally supplied as one piece of metal, in which case one digit should not be inverted relative to the other.

Phil

Mozzerb, re: the scan of SG42 you submitted. Is that from your own collection?

Just been admiring it. Lovely looking copy!

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Clive

It is, but not mine -- I was just quoting Allanswood's post above.

Sorry. Wasn't paying proper attention! Re-direct question to Allanswood.

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Clive

Not mine, it's from an auction catalogue.

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

Mistakes happen. We are always happy to review anything as are all the major Expert Committees.
David Brandon

The original "David Brandon" response was as follows, and soon afterwards edited out, in a curious back flip.

A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING!

I have read the message about our Certificate 41497.

This person who thinks he is an 'expert', clearly does not understand that as the stamp has Crown CA watermark which was not issued until 1898!

The date of the cancel is not clear, but this does not excuse his comments. An open apology would be his best choice at this stage.

David Brandon




Someone better tell Stanley Gibbons to reprint all their catalogues in that case.

If any "apologies" are forthcoming, I suspect I know who owes them.

The new member 'David Brandon' has not posted on the new member thread, or verified his IP address as all new members are requested to do.

His original post quoted above by Admin was almost immediately edited prior to the posting of the response.

Due to concerns about his Bona Fides, as the email address used does not check out, his account has been temporarily locked until these can be verified.

Margoz, for Stampboards moderation team