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POLL - Do you believe each Leader of the World Issue was produced in the millions?
Yes 62%  62%  [ 42 ]
No 21%  21%  [ 14 ]
Undecided 18%  18%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 68
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 17:11:31 pm 
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The Philatelic Exporter, Editor and Publisher Graham R. Phillips, June 1992, Pg. 4-5

As a result of Scotland Yard’s investigation, eight members of the Philatelic trade were arraigned at Bow Street Magistrate’s Court on November 28, 1990. On June 12, 1991 they were committed on bail to stand trial. That trial began April 27, 1992 at Southward Crown Court.

Six companies involved

The defendants are involved with the following companies:

* Format International Security Printers, founded and run by Peeling and Hughes, until Feigenbaum took it over and employed Wallen in March 1989
* Philatelists Ltd, the philatelic agents established by Grover which went into liquidation
* Philatelic Distribution Corporation Ltd. (PDC), which succeeded Philatelists Ltd as agents, the principals of which were Feigenbaum, Lagerwaard, and Wallen before he was moved to Format
* Urch Harris & Co. Ltd. (UH), owned by Feigenbaum’s family was to have been the principal retail outlet for the ‘errors’. Also involved were Lagerwaard Grover, and Pillinger
* London and New York International Stamp Company Ltd. (LNYI) also owned by Feigenbaum’s family, was another outlet for the bogus stamps
* Casco Ltd. (later Caphco Ltd. after privatization), of which John Smith was managing director, philatelic agents to Commonwealth countries.

The trial began on April 27 at Southwark Crown Court (London) of eight men charged with fraud and conspiracy concerning the alleged production of certain issues of Commonwealth countries’ postage stamps during the mid to late 1890s. Had the fraud been allowed to succeed, the prosecution, led by Mr. Michael Worsley QC, alleges the millions of pounds would have been involved. The errors included missing colours, misplaced watermarks, imports, etc and were to have been gradually sold to the public as ‘rarities’.

The start of the case was delayed whilst the 18 barristers and their reams of paper were found room in the crowded court. The trial is expected to last three or four months.

The Defendants and the Charges

* Clive Feigenbaum (51), Mount Park Road, Harrow-on-Hill, Middlesex: one charge of fraudulent trading, three of conspiring to use a false instrument, and three of conspiracy to defraud.
* Ronald Grover (56), Lodge Road, Beulieu, Hampshire: one charge of aiding and abetting fraudulent trading, one of conspiring to use a false instrument, and one of conspiring to defraud.
* Frederick Hughes (69), Downs Road, Thornton Heath, Surrey: one charge of fraudulent trading, two of conspiring to use a false instrument, and two of conspiring to defraud.
* Aart Lagerwaard (44), Cranberry Close, Marchwood, Southampton: one charge of aiding and abetting fraudulent trading, two of conspiring to use false instrument, and two of conspiring to defraud.
* William Peeling (69), Northdown Road, Woldingham, Surrey: one charge of fraudulent trading.
* Brian Pillinger (51), Over Lane, Over Almondsbury, Bristol.
* John Smith (38), Canford Gardens, New Malden, Surrey.
* Ronald Walden (44), Allington Lane, West End, Southampton.

Each of the last thee named face one charge of aiding and abetting fraudulent trading, one of conspiring to use a false instrument, and one of conspiring to defraud.

The offences are alleged to have taken place on dates between October 1 1985 and July 29 1989.

Peeling has admitted his one charge and will be sentenced at the end of the trial.

The others have pleaded not guilty to all charges.

“Funnies”

Outlining the prosecution’s case against the defendants, Mr. Worsley told the jury that it concerned the deliberate production of postage stamps with errors which were then sold to collectors who believed they were rare examples which had occurred by accident.

He said that the defendants were some of the principal people concerned, and that a number of other people were involved, some guiltily and some innocently, but so many that a courtroom would not be big enough to hold them. The Crown had limited the number they charged and endeavored to put in the dock those principally involved at the top of the tree.

“Bogus stamps were printed wholesale” Mr. Worsley said, “It was an Alice in Wonderland situation that checkers in a security printers who were supposed to be checking stamps were being employed and paid to make sure the errors occurred. It is a Cloud Cuckooland situation”.

The stamps, referred to as ‘funnies’ and ‘Mickey Mouse stamps’’, included Andrew and Sarah’s wedding and the Queen’s 60th birthday. Others included a St. Vincent tennis stamp with a missing ball; the actual printing plate of which had been found at Format.

Mr. Worsley said it was quite inconceivable that the colonial governments had ordered such errors, as had been claimed by the defendants. The bogus stamps had been ordered by the agencies, he stated.

Police Raids

The first of a series of police raids took place in April 1989 when Format’s premises at Camberwell were searched and a stack of about 44,000 St. Lucia stamps with misperfs and missing colours was discovered, which Hughes said were awaiting destruction.

But another employee told police they were being sent to PDC. Hughes was arrested later that day and on being interviewed he told police he was merely following the system adopted by Peeling, whom he had replaced at Format.

On May 9 1989 it is alleged that a special meeting chaired by Feigenbaum, described by the prosecution as the “prime mover” in the fraud, took place at Urch Harris. After this meeting important documents were shredded and following a police raid on a south London warehouse 91 boxes of stamps were also shredded.

On May 10, police visited Caphco in Sutton and arrested John Smith. On being shown a quantity of Pitcairn Is stamps with inverted watermarks he is claimed to have accepted that they were deliberately produced to promote the interests of the islands but were sold at face value, mainly to Urch Harris, to boost the shrinking collector market.

In February 1990 property was seized by police from urch Harris and Philatelic Distribution Corporation, and a large quantity of stamps was found at LNY’s warehouse in Stratford, east London.

Feigenbaum was arrested at his home, where bogus stamps were found in his study. He said LNY was owned by his family, UH was a subsidiary with no other shareholders, and he was the managing director of PDC.

“Right at the center of the group of related people and companies was Mr. Feigenbaum in a position of control. Wherever you look you find him - something more than a coincidence” Mr. Worsley told the court.

On May 3 1990 Wallen was arrested and said he was the stamp production manager at PDC firstly under Lagerwaard and then Feigenbaum. He transferred to Format in March 1989. The same day Grover and Lagerwaard were arrested. The latter said he worked in various capacities at UH and philatelists, and became a director of UH in 1987. He also said “specials” were created to boost sales.

“Errors to order”

The first prosecution witness to be called was William Peeling, who had earlier pleaded guilty to one charge of fraudulent trading.

70 year old Peeling described himself as a craftsman, having worked in stamp production since he was 14. He had set up Format in 1969 with three others, all directors and equal shareholders, including Hughes one of the defendants. In April 1988, he told the Court, he was summoned to the director’s office by Hughes who told him his services were no longer needed and that Hughes was replacing him as managing director.

He added angrily that he left the company instantly and that he was forced to sell his shareholding in Format and another company he had helped to found, Caldew Colour Plates, to Feigenbaum.

“We did nothing unless it was ordered” he said referring to the flawed stamps, which were passed to Philatelists and then PDC. He recalled working with Grover at Philatelists producing stamps for islands with “so many weird names”. His first meeting with Feigenbaum was in March 1987 when the latter became owner of PDC.

On his second day in the witness box Peeling told the Court of the “burden” that the deliberately produced errors had become to his two companies. Format and Caldew, saying “I felt it was wrong, it was obviously wrong, I kept those feeling to myself.” Whenever printing contracts were placed by Philatelists and PDC deliberate variations were always ordered, but on the rare occasions when Format dealt directly with a postal administration no such mistakes were asked for.

In 1985 Format got into financial problems because of the collapse of Philatelists. A promised ₤100,000 from Feigenbaum to relieve the pressure never materialized, and by the time Peeling left the company in 1987 its finances were in a poor state, although it was waiting for a ₤900,000 payment from an unconnected American firm.

Cross examined by counsel for Lagerwaard, Peeling said that as the main person who dealt with Format’s clients, he had the impression that both Feigenbaum and Grover were dynamic and convincing”.

In 1983 when Format’s relationship with Philatelists first began Peeling was shown a contract which gave him the impression that Grover had a license to print varieties.

Early in 1987 Peeling said he saw a contract between Feigenbaum and Grover to “satisfy he had purchased the rights from Mr. Grover to reprint. It contained exclusion clauses from overseas countries saying there should never be a reprint.”

“It did disturb me that my reaction was not to refuse. I must have had a blank at the time”. He added.

As we closed for press (May 11), Peeling completed his fifth day in the witness box. The case continues.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 17:13:43 pm 
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From The Philatelic Exporter, Editor and Publisher Graham R. Phillips, July 1992, Pg. 3

“Deliberate Errors” trial continues

Southwark Crown Court has been hearing further prosecution evidence in the “deliberate errors” stamp fraud trial which began on April 27. In last month’s Exporter William Peeling’s evidence was reported.

Det. Con. Ronald Faulds, Scotland Fraud Squad, told of interviews with Frederick Hughes, in which Hughes had described how Format’s financial situation had deteriorated following the collapse of Philatelists Ltd., the takeover by Feigenbaum, and the loss of some business because of previous Fraud Squad investigations.

Hughes said he was reduced to “Jack if everything” and that Format was continually kept short of money by Feigenbaum. Eventually, in mid-1989, Format was forced into liquidation with debts of ₤270,000. Because of the inter-relationship between several of the companies involved, Feigenbaum, owner of Format, was also the main creditor of the firm.

“No one supported Feigenbaum”

Evidence given in an interview by Aart Lagewaard was read to the Court, which hears of “violent and heated arguments”, and punches and tea being thrown by Lagerwaard at Feigenbaum when the former, at the time managing director of Philatelic Distribution, had discovered that errors were being deliberately printed and distributed through PDC and another Feigenbaum company, Urch Harris.

Lagerwaard had warned the Tuvalu postal administration that deliberate errors and varieties were being produced contrary to the terms of their contract. He had threatened to go to the police and had consulted solicitors because he was “alarmed at what was going on”. He further stated that no one at PDC supported Feigenbaum but as they had to pay their mortgages, apathy forced them to accept “misleading the public”.

Lagerwaard had joined PDC as managing director in February 1987, having been with Philatelists Ltd. since January 1984. When Philatelists crashed PDC was formed by Feigenbaum to take over its stamp agency contracts. Lagerwaard said he had wanted to stay on to gather information. Eventually in January 1988, he left PDC because “he was not to be trusted”.

Even though PDC was a successful operation it was constantly short of funds because “Feigenbaum was always in need of ready cash…money was siphoned off”. Sometimes, Lagerwaard stated, he had to pay bills out of his own pocket because PDC cheques kept bouncing.

During his time at Philatelists, under Ronald Grover, progressive proofs of St. Vincent Locomotives were sold to the public at highly inflated prices because “only 250 were printed”. Infact 3000 had been sold.

Ronald Wallen, arrested at the same time as Lagerwaard in May 1990, said in an interview with the police that inverts of the Queen’s 60th birthday had been produced. He told officers that Feigenbaum was a brow-beating chairman who had announced that “it’s about time we had a new variety”.

When we closed for press the prosecution continued to present its case. The trial is expected to last for several more weeks.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 17:15:59 pm 
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From The Philatelic Exporter, Editor and Publisher Graham R. Phillips, August 1992, Pg. 3

EIGHT CLEARED OF “DELIBERATE ERRORS” FRAUD

The eight men charged with various offences relating to deliberately produced stamp errors and varieties have been cleared of all charges.

The trial at Southwark Crown Court, London, which has begun on April 27, ended on July 16 when Clive Feigenbaum was acquitted of one charge of fraudulent trading.

On June 30, six other defendants - Ronald Grover, Frederick Hughes, Aart Lagerwaard, Brian Pillinger, John Smith, and Ronald Wallen had been found not guilty on the direction of Judge Eugene Cotran.

All but one of the charges against Clive Feigenbaum were dropped when no evidence was offered by the prosecution. The eighth defendant, William Peeling, had earlier pleaded guilty but was allowed to reverse his plea and was then also discharged after no evidence was offered against him.

The Judge told the six acquitted men that “You should not feel in any way that this prosecution has blotted any of your characters”.

Addressing John Smith personally, Judge Cotran said that he hoped most sincerely that he would be reinstated in his position as head of the Crown Agents Stamp Bureau. All were awarded costs.

The acquittals left just Clive Feigenbaum to answer the one remaining charge of fraudulent trading in stamps with deliberate imperfections between April 1988 and July 1989.

He told the Court that he saw nothing wrong in what he had been doing, and still does not. He explained that the major points concerning stamp varieties were the price and description. He agreed with the Judge that, of course, rarity was also an important factor.

A famous stamp with an aeroplane printed upside down on it would have been worth exactly the same whether the mistake had been deliberate or not, he claimed. He said he never really considered whether an error was deliberate, “either way, it frankly does not matter. It would make exactly the same price”.

When advertising the errors and varieties he said he had always attempted to be prudent and reasonable in the descriptions. Some errors and varieties had been advertised without his knowledge as genuinely rare errors.

He said he was being accused of fraud for selling stamp varieties but varieties had existed since the very first Penny Black.

He claimed that contracts giving him authority to produce stamps for certain Commonwealth territories also allowed him to produce varieties and reprints to meet collector demand.

During the trial Judge Cotran had made it clear to the jury that the production of errors and varieties was not in itself illegal. The offence occurred when they were sold as if produced accidentally.

Clive Feigenbaum suggested that the prosecution had confused his “open contracts” with colonial governments, which allowed reprints and varieties, with those that the Crown Agents negotiated with their principals, which did not. He maintained that ‘revolutions’ in the stamp trade had allowed these ‘open contacts’.

The ‘not guilty’ verdict came after four hours deliberation by the jury members, who were gratefully and enthusiastically thanked by Mr. Feigenbaum, who himself had been thanked by Judge Cotran for his “Patience with us but the verdict of the jury has vindicated your stand.”


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 22:35:07 pm 
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Here's some "Research" for you...

Quote:
Meanwhile, on the 18th of April, an employee of PDC gave an order to Format to print Tuvalu stamps and Format complied. In accordance with the then existing arrangements with PDC, Format was required to print approximately 21,000 sets of unflawed stamps and 14,000 sets of flawed stamps, a total order of almost 4 million stamps with a rough value of ÂŁ2 million. This was essentially a repeat of an order made prior to any court proceedings.

A total order of almost 4 million stamps was "essentially a repeat" of a prior order.

That makes "almost" 8 million stamps by my calculation on those 2 orders alone.

Quote:
On January 15, 1987, receivers were appointed at Philatelist which were thought to have ÂŁ20 million of LOW unsold stock. Issue No. 13 of this magazine reported the Tuvalu Government appointed a UK solicitor to purchase and dispose of all stock of Tuvalu stamps and that printers were paid directly for these.

As stated in the first quote, the 4 million stamps were worth roughly ÂŁ2 million.

From the second quote, Philatelist were thought to have ÂŁ20 million of LOW unsold stock.

At similar rates, ÂŁ20 million would be around 40 million LOW stamps.

So, the answer to the poll question is therefore a RESOUNDING YES.

The "Ayes" have it :!:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 22:54:27 pm 
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I know it's pedantic semantics, but I think he was arguing that each individual design different stamp was not printed in the millions. With so many sets released and so many different designs on a single sheet and no apparent provable total quantities, its makes it all very difficult, even if he did have all the info. We know that much of the info was shredded.

If there were something like 300 different stamps issued, then there would need to have been printed at least 300 million stamps (1 million each). However that's just 2 semi-trailer loads of stamps.

From my calculations I estimate that 100,000 stamps will fit into a photocopy paper box as sheets of 20.
It doesn't take long to get into the millions when I could easily fit 4 million into my car.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 23:16:54 pm 
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Well if nothing else it has got his research website on the first page of google search for

Leaders of the World Stamps

And if you add cars to that then this disucssion gets on to the first page. Considering all the other references (ebay) and the multiple hits on his own site, that's not a bad achievement.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 00:29:45 am 
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point taken and already shown.
1 pack of packs of progressives for 1 value(7 colors) approx 2750 pairs in the pack imaged.
these being the butterflies of St. Lucia I might add which it seems nobody on this board even noticed of which 4 of these fit in a box 2x2x1.5 FEET weighing 22k.

So multiply 1 pack like this by 900 by 3000 by 7. Ummmm lets see if you can NOW figure it out. 18,900,000
And this is just for the progressives.

Posting the whole Tuvalu Scandal article is totally useless to the thread since it was already linked and referred too. Again retorical. Talk about idols? Looks like this one article is your god admin. Written by the loser of the court battle. Not biased? It is totally biased and if you can't figure that out then you just plain are a lost soul.

Basing your math on it shows total lack of understanding. Again showing who is really pulling at straws.

Whining because I have stated I am done with this thread and saying I am running or anything is rediculous because if you take most of what I have stated between all the garbage input deferring away from the subject including

My website
Staffa and locals
validity
Clive Feigenbaum
and everthing else you have put in here to deferre it from the point of the thread shows total lack of respect for any person trying to post on this forum.

Whining because I don't produce reams of pages of invoices, print orders etc; on this little forum is silly in that we do not HAVE too. You have nothing. No invoices. no documents. Nothing to prove otherwise the point of the thread except your little article.

I will tell you that more will be presented in time on the site....not here. Waste of time here as this thread also shows you are the few and we are many. Note the avatar.

Stating CC is having a hard time shows total ignorance as many lots he has sold out you cannot see on completed items as eBay only shows the last 90 days. Not selling them easily? The ships sold out approx 400 lots worth. The football sold out approx 3-400 lots. A major portion of the trains and cars has sold out. MUCH higher numbers of lots. Sorry...you have lost out. I almost did too.

But once again I knew I would get this kind of reaction from closing as forums always are this way it seems. The few want to act like they know it all and fight to the bitter end in denial of the facts placed in their face. I expect a massive retoric of comments from these few who have deferred the thread to come posting all kinds of demeaning, arrogant, self righteous garbage to hide the truth and once again deferre the thread.

Aside from that....no proof from you has come out proving otherwise. Your little articles are meaningless as they are being proven to be biased, one sided, and without evidence to back it up. Ummm let's see...the one you just posted almost a whole page of in this thread does not show any documents proving anything yet you take it as gospel. Why don't you frame it and hang it like over your alter?

We will provide more documents in time as the LOW issues are not the only issues printed by the Format Printers. We have many documents on many other issues including LOW issues. I am looking at about 20 invoices right now for the Trains/Cars. To bad you cannot see them.....waaaaaa. Quite a few countries too.
Hmmmmm...in time my friends...in time.

Oh and Norvic... it was already hitting number one before I started this thread. I do not depend on forums to rank. I am a webmaster. SEO optimization my friend.

To those that oppose us.
It has only just begun and you cannot stop it. :mrgreen:

Next post will just announce when the St. Lucia page is live. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 00:38:18 am 
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norvic wrote:
Well if nothing else it has got his research website on the first page of google search for

Leaders of the World Stamps

And if you add cars to that then this disucssion gets on to the first page. Considering all the other references (ebay) and the multiple hits on his own site, that's not a bad achievement.


Excellent.

"There are none so blind as those that cannot see."


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 01:59:00 am 
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Quote:
Whining because I don't produce reams of pages of invoices, print orders etc; on this little forum is silly in that we do not HAVE too. You have nothing. No invoices. no documents. Nothing to prove otherwise the point of the thread except your little article.


So there is two differering viewpoints on the same subject. You have done nothing to prove your side is correct. The article has court documents quoted in it but you fail to provide any of your so called "proof"

Quote:
I will tell you that more will be presented in time on the site....not here. Waste of time here as this thread also shows you are the few and we are many. Note the avatar.


Again you are hiding who is apparently doing this research. If your research is to stand up again you have to show who is actually doing it.

Quote:
Aside from that....no proof from you has come out proving otherwise. Your little articles are meaningless as they are being proven to be biased, one sided, and without evidence to back it up. Ummm let's see...the one you just posted almost a whole page of in this thread does not show any documents proving anything yet you take it as gospel. Why don't you frame it and hang it like over your alter?


How are the articles meaningless when they are based on research presented in a court. I submit to you that the research you and your hidden backers have would not stand up in court and thats why you choose to hide.

Quote:
I am looking at about 20 invoices right now for the Trains/Cars. To bad you cannot see them.....waaaaaa. Quite a few countries too.


You failed to realize that these invoices are for items that left the printers. The court stated that there is over another 20 million pounds of unsold and additional stock which never left the printers.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 04:04:44 am 
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Well, here's my 2¢ worth about all of this:

1) Several years ago I did speak with Clive Feigenbaum, which some of you may recall was actually involved with these stamps and Format Security International (he was a dealer at the American Topical Association stamp show here in the Dallas/Ft. Worth a few years ago, shortly before he died).

He didn't really want to say too much about this (obviously...), but he did kind of mention that Format essentially had contracts that gave them a free-for-all as far as stamps for some of these nations. In other words, they'd print whatever contracted amount for an island, then a bunch of "extras" including progressive proofs and various "varieties" and "errors"...

He said that perhaps an island got 20,000 copies of an issue, and they print the same amount again as "varieties/errors" to be "introduced into the stamp marketplace" at some later date...

2) Yes, the issues did get some usages from the islands. If anything, the St. Vincent Philatelic Services Ltd did use them to mail advertising and stamp orders during the early/mid 1980's ...

3) I think that "millions" of stamps is stretching it a bit... 10's of thousands, perhaps a hundred thousand ...

4) I know that Tuvalu de-monetized these issues.... but to my knowledge, they are technically still valid as postage on the island of St. Vincent (& Grenadines).

5) My St. Vincent philatelic website (http://stvincentstamps.webs.com) does have a link to the original "Low Story" article that was at a Tuvalu site many years. It is a PDF file and can be found at this link:
http://www.freewebs.com/stvincentstamps ... t%20al.pdf
... or simply go to the "Errors" link on my St. Vincent website and click on the "Tuvalu Low Story" link in the middle of the paragraph.......

6) They are actually very attractive and well designed stamps. While the number of collectors that specialize in completing a particular country (especially St. Vincent) are few and far between these days, I think many of these issues are still useful. I would think that especially "car guys" would enjoy these stamps framed!

I collect "Audi" on stamps and do have 2 sheets of the Tuvalu Audi Quattro stamp and also the Bequia Auto Union stamp.

7) The major catalogs do actually list most (not all) of these issues, such as Scott's, Stanley Gibbons and Michel (usually with notes that some of the issues did NOT meet listing requirements, such as those from the various Tuvalu and St. Vincent minor islands...).

Happy Collecting!

Peter

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 04:55:46 am 
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The Researcher wrote:
Posting the whole Tuvalu Scandal article is totally useless to the thread since it was already linked and referred too.

No it isn't useless. Many of the members here are naturally suspicious of links (it's a stamp-collector thing, but you wouldn't understand that.... Also, in a year, or 5, or 10, when that link is broken, the article will still be here. :idea:

The Researcher wrote:
Whining because I don't produce reams of pages of invoices, print orders etc; on this little forum is silly in that we do not HAVE too.

Nobody is "whining". This is not a "little forum" - we have >8,000 members. How many do you have? :?:

The Researcher wrote:
I will tell you that more will be presented in time on the site....not here. Waste of time here as this thread also shows you are the few and we are many. Note the avatar.

Oh, dear, delusions of grandeur. Can you hear that knocking? It's my knees knocking as I quake in my boots... :roll:

The Researcher wrote:
Stating CC is having a hard time shows total ignorance as many lots he has sold out you cannot see on completed items as eBay only shows the last 90 days. Not selling them easily? The ships sold out approx 400 lots worth. The football sold out approx 3-400 lots. A major portion of the trains and cars has sold out. MUCH higher numbers of lots. Sorry...you have lost out. I almost did too.

Wow - he must have sold MILLIONS of stamps there :lol:

The Researcher wrote:
But once again I knew I would get this kind of reaction from closing as forums always are this way it seems. The few want to act like they know it all and fight to the bitter end in denial of the facts placed in their face. I expect a massive retoric of comments from these few who have deferred the thread to come posting all kinds of demeaning, arrogant, self righteous garbage to hide the truth and once again deferre the thread.

Physician, heal thyself :D

The Researcher wrote:
Oh and Norvic... it was already hitting number one before I started this thread. I do not depend on forums to rank. I am a webmaster. SEO optimization my friend.

Man, you need to get out more :(

The Researcher wrote:
To those that oppose us.
It has only just begun and you cannot stop it. :mrgreen:

Oh, puh-leeze. What kind of melodramatic, pre-pubescent nonsense is THAT :twisted:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 06:11:37 am 
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admin wrote:
From Tuvalu here are actual FACTS of the matter as reported in the press of the time.

http://www.tuvaluislands.com/stamps/LOW_story.htm

Well, the conjunction of the words "FACTS" and "reported in the press" is worth at least a wry grin. :D

There's clearly considerably more to the story than was published at the time in the Exporter, the reports in which jump abruptly from testimony in a promising looking case from a witness who pleaded guilty (in the July issue), to its apparent almost total collapse with no further evidence offered on most of the charges and the bloke allowed to change his plea to not guilty (in the August issue).

Presumably something happened in between behind the scenes. It was interesting to note that the defendants were picked as merely representative bigwigs from the organisations concerned, one of which was the Crown Agents (CASCO).

That doesn't mean The Researcher's take is correct. The impression I get from reading between the lines is that no-one could prove that Feigenbaum & co actually conspired to do anything illegal, rather than merely unethical (the admissions of what had taken place, and the interconnectivity of the companies, pretty much imply the latter). Doubtless it would have been nice to have a Scottish verdict available!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 08:42:52 am 
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SAINT LUCIA IS LIVE! :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 08:57:59 am 
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The Researcher wrote:

I will tell you that more will be presented in time on the site....not here. Waste of time here as this thread also shows you are the few and we are many.

Note the avatar.
Image


ROTFLMAO :lol:

What is this about ... flogging a few stamps or world domination??


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:28:27 am 
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Took me a while but I think I've cracked it.

I should have realised that his avatar is a self portrait. :shock:

Now I understand. :roll:

And dare I say it as no one else has?? This thread is a train wreck. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:03:17 pm 
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Allanswood wrote:

And dare I say it as no one else has?? This thread is a train wreck. :D


Image


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:26:32 pm 
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Eric Casagrande wrote:

Image


Is that a wry comment on the "Investment Potential" of the "Leaders Of The World" Trains stamp issues? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Printed in "such tiny quantities" our Secret Researcher breathlessly assures us, that a guy in Poland can currently sell them in sheets by the carton load on ebay - for $25 a parcel and make no impact on prices - or his bulk supplies!

Great image .... best in this thread. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:31:16 pm 
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Allanswood wrote:
And dare I say it as no one else has?? This thread is a train wreck. :D


You've been waiting for years to use that one, haven't you? :D :D

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:38:08 pm 
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It was a toss up between that and car crash. hehehehe :D

That must be a picture of Grand Central Station Tuvalu?

You can take the worlds shortest steam train ride.

It last for 30 seconds and crosses the Island 3 times. Every now and then a native gets excited and puts his foot down. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 16:11:57 pm 
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The Researcher wrote:
this thread also shows you are the few and we are many. Note the avatar.


Possibilities:

1. The Researcher (note the members own use of the singular) was using "the royal 'we'"
2. Multiple Personality Syndrome
3. Delusions of grandeur

I think I know which I'd choose. :mrgreen: To be a 'we', there has to be more than one person after all. Of course, like a consultant in a serviced office centre, whose receptionist will quote whatever company's name fits the phone call to make it look like a single person's business is actually a grand company, the OP could have given an intro stating "I represent the Philatelic Research Council, we are currently conducting studies into the LOW material".

Such grandiose statements would be a great cover for the truth, that's it one random person sitting in a suburban house somewhere thinking they've cracked a major case.

Some great people do start small. The inventor of Technicolour, Kaunas, operated out of a surplus cargo train car. But no matter how amazed and interested you are with your work, if you study something that is of little interest to anyone else, you'll be hard-pressed to gain fame or fortune, or even scrape together passing interest from more than a handful of others.

If a botanist were to come along and say "look look, I made I've found something revolutionary: the pink-and-purple flowers of tinkle-tinkle tree are not pollinated as previously thought!!", would their research be run in Nature, or featured in The Times? Nay, they'd be breathlessly gushing their info. on a blog with little traffic, and maybe be discussed at some local interest clubs.

Nothing said here by the OP, that is, the few scraps of real info. amongst all the rambling fluff, would convince any serious collector that this material is anything other than wallpaper or pretty stuff for kids.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 16:16:25 pm 
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One statement from the excellent article Glen linked to says a lot about this material

Quote:
Tuvalu released Locomotives, Part 1, on February 29, 1984. This issue consisted of 4 values, see tenant (8 stamps) and during that year alone a total of 24 sets consisting of 246 stamps were issued in the LOW programme. Dates of contracts and their details are not known.

246 stamps in one year in this series? :shock: And some collectors were up in arms when the USA issued 100 stamps to celebrate the 100 years of the 20th century as part of the millenium, an event that only comes around once every 1000 years, so well-worth a big tribute. But hundreds of stamps showing things of no connection to the country issuing the stamps?

Will The Researcher also write about issue quantities of stamps from Laos showing subway trains, or from Cambodia for Da Vinci? :D

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 02:19:39 am 
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Is Charles Leski (Leski Auctions) a Stampboards member?

A starting bid of AUD$240 is sought for "TUVALU- 1984-85 PROOFS: 'Leaders of the World - Railway Locomotives' blocks of 4"
(eBay Item number: 400292419700).

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TUVALU-1984-85-PROOFS-Leaders-World-Railway-Locomotives-blocks-4-/400292419700?pt=AU_World_Stamps&hash=item5d33499874#ht_1943wt_808


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 02:26:50 am 
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Since the country inscriptions aren't there, maybe the price reflects all the time some unfortunate staffer had to spend reading through the LOW listings for all the culprit countries to pinpoint who issued these. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 13:32:11 pm 
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The three blocks pictured, appear to be heavily creased / wrinkled on the left-hand side, as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 08:11:21 am 
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Even though the joking about the above imaged lot this is what this thread is about. It shows 3 particular "errors" that exist for a particular series. This is research in the FIRST degree. Unknown to most that they exist. :wink:

Despite the high price asked which I agree is too much considering the original invoices show 3,000 were made, it is evidence and solid proof that they exist.

Hopefully others will post such lots and images in this thread to show what is out there on the market and in their collections. This will help towards a database of what exists still in this department.

The wrinkled selvage is typical of much of the varieties of LOW issues as storage conditions were harsh to say the least for much of it. The panes are bulky and as shown in my image of the butterflies heavy and awkward to move.

Every time they are moved can cause damage to the selvage edges etc;. I am sure for the imaged blocks that stamps further in on the panes are probably in perfect condition. 8)

Thank you jimdotwalker for posting the link. :)

My statement "we are many" means the millions of collectors and sellers out there.
The "few" are the 8,000 members of this board. The avatar is from the video game called "Sytemshock2". Made in 1990. It is a metaphor. You would have to play it to understand....hehe. It was way before its time as far as gaming is concerned. As was production of varieties for collectors..... :mrgreen:

I am not your enemy...well at least to most of you. I simply like to do research on unresearched materials and became interested and started this 15+ years ago. Curiosity first began when I received '86 Royal Wedding Tete-bech issues as a gift from K. Bileski for buying specialized Canada.

At that same time era I received some items from the Royal Collections of Egypt in the same way. Mr. Bileski was also aside from being one of the bigger stamp dealers in Canada a researcher also and stated he was more interested in the research than in selling although with researching comes the advantages of selling also.

He was the one who discovered the finder of the Seabeck inverts and promoted them. This info is for those posting about the normals. :wink:

Anyway have to go...doing 5 different things at once here and only have an hour left today. Please keep on posting those findings! As I have said over and over....proof....not words. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:21:38 pm 
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Those blocks of four seem about 100x too much since they are damaged. A canadian dealer has these:

Image

For only $20 and there have been no takers. Described as finished proofs and other like it for the same price. That seems a little bit more reasonable.

Guess that makes my offer of $5 not to bad then :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 17:14:21 pm 
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Those "finished proofs" (odd term) look like nothing more than cutouts from a complete imperf "error" (deliberately made so) sheet itself. You could probably get the whole sheet for 50c.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 01:28:36 am 
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The Researcher wrote:
He was the one who discovered the finder of the Seabeck inverts and promoted them. This info is for those posting about the normals. :wink:

Seems there's been so much mention of the Seebeck Reprints here that you have it on your mind. Bileski of course was instrumental in distributing the St. Lawrence Seaway inverts into the philatelic community.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 04:03:15 am 
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My bad aethelwulf, you are correct :oops:

Was doing 5 things at once yesterday and was in a hurry.

Kevinm the imaged set (3rd series) since there are 5,000 sets possible and if you include the finals from the progressives at another 3,000 should be priced at $5.00 or even a bit less. Not $20.00. :wink:

Allanswood, doubt you will ever find that offer. :roll:

The blocks Charles Leski is offering are from the 1st series set for Nui. One value is missing. This is new information as supposedly Tuvalu Representatives confiscated all errors and destroyed them. These have the missing denomination and country name.

Could easily have been overlooked in their search through the police evidence as they almost look like the finished stamps. They would have been in packs of 120 panes as 3,000 were produced. We will probably never know if the full packs were saved or if only a few were saved for a very long time. Only the market will tell in years to come.

I will tell you this...some of the 1986 Royal Wedding issues from Tuvalu and such were also saved with missing denomination. Same circumstances. Different subject. Will be a different thread. :arrow:

The circumstances as to HOW they were saved will probably never be known. It is possible that between the transport from the evidence warehouse to Tuvalu for destruction some may have been shall we say "stolen"?

The new information will be added to the specialized page today. These are the first "errors" we have seen on the Tuvalu side. Possibly the only ones. Time will tell as with much of the materials produced by the Format Printers. This is another purpose for creating this thread. To allow people to post new info such as this.

We do not claim that all information on the pages is completely accurate nor final. The statement at the beginning of each page states
Quote:
Information on this series is changing as more information is being discovered. This page and associated pages will be updated as more information is made available. Arguments are welcome if you have the evidence to back it up!

for this very reason.

Thank you all for the posts. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 01:07:06 am 
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Quote:
Kevinm the imaged set (3rd series) since there are 5,000 sets possible and if you include the finals from the progressives at another 3,000 should be priced at $5.00 or even a bit less. Not $20.00.


Okay then the ones on your website should be worth about the same maybe $10 not the hundreds of dollars you are asking for


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 02:01:01 am 
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What do you mean by hundreds? I am selling a set of single pair PROGRESSIVES of a single value for $5.00. Doesn't look like hundreds to me..... :?

Perhaps you are looking at it wrong? I am stating that set of 4 imperforate single pairs (no progressives) should run at about $5.00. :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 08:08:10 am 
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This is for Gavin in regards to.
Quote:
Here's some "Research" for you...


Quote:
Quote:
Meanwhile, on the 18th of April, an employee of PDC gave an order to Format to print Tuvalu stamps and Format complied. In accordance with the then existing arrangements with PDC, Format was required to print approximately 21,000 sets of unflawed stamps and 14,000 sets of flawed stamps, a total order of almost 4 million stamps with a rough value of ÂŁ2 million. This was essentially a repeat of an order made prior to any court proceedings.

A total order of almost 4 million stamps was "essentially a repeat" of a prior order.

That makes "almost" 8 million stamps by my calculation on those 2 orders alone.


This pertains to the order for all 9 islands final cars/train sets. Each set containing 4-8 pairs. The invoice shown is only for Tuvalu. Each Island has it's own invoice.
The referenced "repeat" order was for the reprint orders for all 9 islands for earlier sets. Note the word "essentially". Cleverly placed to make you think it is an exact repeat order and not referencing to reprinting nor of what was ordered as in what sets. "Essentially" written in bias. :wink:

Quote:
Quote:
On January 15, 1987, receivers were appointed at Philatelist which were thought to have ÂŁ20 million of LOW unsold stock. Issue No. 13 of this magazine reported the Tuvalu Government appointed a UK solicitor to purchase and dispose of all stock of Tuvalu stamps and that printers were paid directly for these.

As stated in the first quote, the 4 million stamps were worth roughly ÂŁ2 million.

From the second quote, Philatelist were thought to have ÂŁ20 million of LOW unsold stock.

At similar rates, ÂŁ20 million would be around 40 million LOW stamps.

So, the answer to the poll question is therefore a RESOUNDING YES.

The "Ayes" have it

Note the word, thought. Also notice how the next sentence is tied in conjunction with the first. Kind of makes you think all of them were for Tuvalu.

Another interesting twist....why were the printers paid for the stamps if they were made
without agreement by Tuvalu? Strange yes?

Here is a quote from the quote....hehe.
Quote:
Although this article is written based on the legal proceedings initiated by the government of Tuvalu, stamps of other countries were also involved, including Gibraltar, the Republic of Kiribati, Saint Kitts-Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Montserrat, the Virgin Islands, and St. Lucia.


So.....what does that do for your calculations? 8)
Please understand LOW issues are not just trains and cars and not just for Tuvalu.

Quote:
So, the answer to the poll question is therefore a RESOUNDING YES.


hmmmmm :?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 08:51:57 am 
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The Researcher wrote:

Another interesting twist .... why were the printers paid for the stamps if they were made without agreement by Tuvalu? Strange yes?



Why? As Feigenbaum and Co were making a fortune from each box of wallpaper they were handed.

Who cares what they cost. They sure didn't.

As it clear from the official court reports, there were dodgy things from Tuvalu being deliberately printed WITHOUT the knowledge or approval of the Tuvalu Government, and Tuvalu sought and got a Court Injunction to CEASE doing it.

Feigenbaum kept doing it, and was found by the Judge to in Contempt Of Court for breaching that injunction, and convicted and fined.

Any part of this reminders of the FACTS so far, difficult for you to understand?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 09:10:35 am 
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Quote:
Clive Feigenbaum appealed and on the 20th of October, 1989, the Judge of the Court of Appeal “felt the imposition of a prison sentence a very grave punishment’ in view of Mr. Feigenbaum’s ‘good record and character’. The sentence of three months imprisonment was quashed and there was no order for costs.



Your "facts". :)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 09:42:25 am 
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The Researcher wrote:

Quote:
Clive Feigenbaum appealed and on the 20th of October, 1989, the Judge of the Court of Appeal “felt the imposition of a prison sentence a very grave punishment’ in view of Mr. Feigenbaum’s ‘good record and character’. The sentence of three months imprisonment was quashed and there was no order for costs.



Your "facts". :)


Like all failed spin-doctors you take one part from a detailed report to spin it to hopefully prove your point.

The FACTS were reported above.

Feigenbaum as I stated has a Criminal Conviction for Contempt Of Court for printing more Tuvalu stamps in breach of the injunction.

The PRISON TERM he got for that was revoked on appeal but the CONVICTION and the fine still stood as can be clearly seen - by all but you - it seems.

So let's follow the bouncing ball again just for you -

admin wrote:
"The Researcher" wants us to only know PART of the story. The part that suits him.

He clearly has a house full of this wallpaper and is praying he can hype is up to many times the level the guy in Poland seems NOT to be getting easily on ebay, and make a killing.

From Tuvalu here are actual FACTS of the matter as reported in the press of the time.

http://www.tuvaluislands.com/stamps/LOW_story.htm

FACTS, that no-one was sued about, not more hot air from "The Researcher". His "HERO" Feigenbaum - "The Galileo Of Our Time" - was highly litigious, and if one word of this was untrue, you can bet court action would have occurred.

These reports show Feigenbaum was found guilty of Contempt of Court, for breaching the Court order not to produce more Tuvalu stamps, and fined ÂŁ3000 for it, and on appeal, a 3 month prison sentence was revoked. Some "Galileo" visionary.


==================


TUVALU AND THE LEADERS OF THE WORLD – A PHILATELIC SCANDAL

The Government of Tuvalu entered into a contract with Philatelic Distribution Corporation Ltd. (PDC) in June 1987. PDC under a further agreement purchased from the Tuvalu government some 16 million stamps for ÂŁ65,000. Over 2 million were alleged to be flawed.

A further contract, which was to give rise to litigation, was made on the 17th of October 1987 between PDC and Tuvalu. Tuvalu gave PDC strictly defined rights to design, produce, sell and distribute thematic stamps for Tuvalu and its Islands.

Clauses in this contract required stamps to be produced “under the supervision of PDC by a security printers acceptable to the government” and required PDC to “uphold the integrity of the Government”. PDC used the printers, Format International Security Printers, Ltd.

By March 1988, the Tuvalu Government suspected this contract was being breached. They were concerned about advertisements which offered flawed Tuvalu stamps.

During a series of communications with Clive Feigenbaum at PDC, Tuvalu were misled about the relationship between PDC and Format; nor were they informed that Format had been instructed to print a substantial quantity of flawed stamps.

Instead, Tuvalu was told that Format were extremely reliable and made every effort to minimize the risk of errors during printing. However, the Tuvalu Government made it clear that Format were not to be used as printers but PDC continued to give orders to Format.

On the 3rd of March, the Tuvalu Government terminated the contract of the 7th of October, 1987. They also sought and were granted injunctions restraining any production or dealing in material bearing the name of Tuvalu or the use of printing materials.

The ‘ordered material’ were described as: “all and any stamps or other articles of Philately and all plates dies artwork materials and other goods….bearing the name of Tuvalu or any of its islands and produced by or for or at the direction or at the direction of any of the Defendants.”

Variations to this order were agreed. March 7th, Mr. Fred Hughes, on behalf of Format, undertook not to use any ordered materials including a number of plates locked away on their premises.

On April 25th, Mr. Roger Apsey, stock controller of PDC, Mr. Allan Hayward, financial adviser and controller of the group of companies, Mr. Clive Feigenbaum and LYNI undertook not to dispose of or remove or tamper with ordered materials with the exception of certain authorized and unflawed stamps.

Feigenbaum stressed the losses that might be made without these variations. (For example, LYNI would suffer a loss of ÂŁ465,000 and be liable to pay compensation to its customers).

Meanwhile, on the 18th of April, an employee of PDC gave an order to Format to print Tuvalu stamps and Format complied. In accordance with the then existing arrangements with PDC, Format was required to print approximately 21,000 sets of unflawed stamps and 14,000 sets of flawed stamps, a total order of almost 4 million stamps with a rough value of ÂŁ2 million.

This was essentially a repeat of an order made prior to any court proceedings. In addition, the marketing manager of Philatelic Collections, Ltd. had placed an order for album pages for Tuvalu stamps. Breaches continued until the beginning of May, 1989.

On April 27 1988, Scotland Yard Fraud Squad together with officers of the Gibraltar Fraud Squad executed a search warrant at Format’s premises where Detective Constable Faulds saw a substantial quantity of Tuvalu stamps which had just been printed. On May 14th, they removed thousands of stamps bearing the name of Tuvalu as well as other material.

In July, 1989, Mr. Feigenbaum, as Chairman and Managing Director of PDC was held guilty of contempt of the court in breaching the order made on 3 March, 1989 and was committed to prison for three months and fined ÂŁ3,000.

F. Hughes, Managing Director of Format and Roger Apsey, Stock Controller of PDC, were given suspended sentences and fines of ÂŁ750. They were ordered to pay costs on an indemnity basis.

Clive Feigenbaum appealed and on the 20th of October, 1989, the Judge of the Court of Appeal “felt the imposition of a prison sentence a very grave punishment’ in view of Mr. Feigenbaum’s ‘good record and character’. The sentence of three months imprisonment was quashed and there was no order for costs.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:06:46 am 
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Quote:
Variations to this order were agreed. March 7th, Mr. Fred Hughes, on behalf of Format, undertook not to use any ordered materials including a number of plates locked away on their premises.


Another interesting point. You see a new agreement was made with Tuvalu. We have the letters and the agreement. It was proposed on March 1, 1988. The old contract was terminated on March 3, 1988. The last set for Tuvalu was the Olympic Games set in August 1988.

Quote:
In July, 1989, Mr. Feigenbaum, as Chairman and Managing Director of PDC was held guilty of contempt of the court in breaching the order made on 3 March, 1989 and was committed to prison for three months and fined ÂŁ3,000.


Do you see the twisted way of the article yet? :twisted:
"held guilty" NOT CONVICTED.

You see they tried to get him for stamps that were produced under the new agreement. They had already been MADE!

Quote:
On April 27 1988, Scotland Yard Fraud Squad together with officers of the Gibraltar Fraud Squad executed a search warrant at Format’s premises where Detective Constable Faulds saw a substantial quantity of Tuvalu stamps which had just been printed. On May 14th, they removed thousands of stamps bearing the name of Tuvalu as well as other material.


Why do you think he won the appeal? The order to cease was on March 3, 1989. Format was already in bankruptsy.

Quote:
Any part of this reminders of the FACTS so far, difficult for you to understand?


And as for your last statement...the conviction was overturned dude. The writer of the article just twisted it so people like you would think it stood. Now why don't you take your holy little article and research it out for a few years so you can catch up on what really happened :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:21:45 am 
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The Researcher wrote:

And as for your last statement...the conviction was overturned dude. The writer of the article just twisted it so people like you would think it stood. Now why don't you take your holy little article and research it out for a few years so you can catch up on what really happened :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


For the 3rd time on this page, as you appear to have poor comprehension when the FACTS do not suit your own mental version of events re your Hero the "GALILEO OF OUR TIME" -

Global Administrator wrote:

Like all failed spin-doctors you take one part from a detailed report to spin it to hopefully prove your point.

The FACTS were reported above.

Feigenbaum as I stated has a Criminal Conviction for Contempt Of Court for printing more Tuvalu stamps in breach of the injunction.

The PRISON TERM he got for that was revoked on appeal but the CONVICTION and the fine still stood as can be clearly seen - by all but you - it seems.




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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:36:27 am 
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Quote:
During a series of communications with Clive Feigenbaum at PDC, Tuvalu were misled about the relationship between PDC and Format; nor were they informed that Format had been instructed to print a substantial quantity of flawed stamps.


I think this is where the issue arises. This one statement shows how the LOW "progressive proofs" are nothing more than cinderellas which were not printed for Tuvalu but for the personal gain of Clive Feigenbaum.

Therefore these items could not be considered proofs since they were not for the printers to show anyone how well the printing was running.

It does however show how there was a significant scandal since these "issues" were not approved by any government channels therefore I cannot see how more than a handful of individuals would be interested in these ugly sheets.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:42:56 am 
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Who is the spin doctor here???

Quote:
Feigenbaum as I stated has a Criminal Conviction for Contempt Of Court for printing more Tuvalu stamps in breach of the injunction.


YOU state it!

Quote:
The PRISON TERM he got for that was revoked on appeal but the CONVICTION and the fine still stood as can be clearly seen - by all but you - it seems.


YOU say the conviction and fine still stood. Obviously YOU are no lawyer.
:lol: :lol:

Where in this holy article of yours does it state....
Quote:
Feigenbaum as I stated has a Criminal Conviction for Contempt Of Court for printing more Tuvalu stamps in breach of the injunction.
??????

And WHERE in this holy article does it state.....
Quote:
The PRISON TERM he got for that was revoked on appeal but the CONVICTION and the fine still stood
???????

Get real! :shock:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:44:36 am 
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Kevin....ever here of Presentation Folders? :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:50:40 am 
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Location: That's on a need to know basis - and YOU do not need to know!
The Researcher wrote:
Who is the spin doctor here???

Quote:
Feigenbaum as I stated has a Criminal Conviction for Contempt Of Court for printing more Tuvalu stamps in breach of the injunction.


YOU state it!

Quote:
The PRISON TERM he got for that was revoked on appeal but the CONVICTION and the fine still stood as can be clearly seen - by all but you - it seems.


YOU say the conviction and fine still stood. Obviously YOU are no lawyer.
:lol: :lol:

Where in this holy article of yours does it state....
Quote:
Feigenbaum as I stated has a Criminal Conviction for Contempt Of Court for printing more Tuvalu stamps in breach of the injunction.
??????

And WHERE in this holy article does it state.....
Quote:
The PRISON TERM he got for that was revoked on appeal but the CONVICTION and the fine still stood
???????

Get real! :shock:


Let's make this real simple for you, as clearly you have no idea about British law.

Let's say you get booked for driving at treble the legal alcohol limit for Hooterville or wherever you live.

You are found guilty, are fined $5000, and jailed for 3 months.

You appeal, and the Judge says he forgives the 3 months jail sentence as that seems excessive.

Your driving record FOREVER still shows you have a conviction for Drunk Driving, and that the fine was $5000.

Same scenario for your hero Feigenbaum. His sentence was amended, but not quashed.

Get it?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:00:24 am 
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Quote:
Kevin....ever here of Presentation Folders?


Yes of stamps that are authorized by the government, which these still clearly are not. Clive Feigenbaum was not authorized to produce presentation folders either. Clearly he was a crook if the courts can prove it or not.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:06:11 am 
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Even that was twisted in this article.
Here is the quote.
Quote:
During his time at Philatelists, under Ronald Grover, progressive proofs of St. Vincent Locomotives were sold to the public at highly inflated prices because “only 250 were printed”. Infact 3000 had been sold.


Twisted. 250 Presentation Folders were made as limited editions. As you can see the rest of the St. Vincent progressives weren't "sold" until this last year. How could they be sold when they were held in the Metropolitan Police warehouse until 2008????
Twisted :twisted: Twisted :twisted: Twisted :twisted:

As for your legal analysis Glen...why don't you look it up in the court system in Great Britain? Then come back here and show the proof. Convictions are overturned all the time. It is very common my friend. The man was never "convicted" of anything. That is what appeals are for in MANY cases.

Example you go to court for a speeding ticket. Judge convicts you of it. You appeal with a lawyer showing the evidence you did not have at the time. Appealing judge see it and judges you innocent and all charges are dropped and you go away with a clean slate on your record. Been there and done it.

Same scenario here. :wink:

And Kevin....Clive didn't make them...the printers made them and there were, as you can see by the signatures on them, :wink: quite a few involved including the Philatelic Agencies themselves.

P.S. I have quite a few of them some being from Tuvalu. :?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:29:58 am 
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The Researcher wrote:
.

Example you go to court for a speeding ticket. Judge convicts you of it. You appeal with a lawyer showing the evidence you did not have at the time. Appealing judge see it and judges you innocent and all charges are dropped and you go away with a clean slate on your record. Been there and done it.

Same scenario here. :wink:



For the 4th time it is NOT the same here - only the PRISON SENTENCE was overturned. The Conviction for Contempt Of court, and fine remained.

Had that NOT been the case Feigenbaum's lawyers would have insisted the 'Exporter' clarify the report next Edition. They did not, as it was fact.

You appear to be the only person on earth that can't see that, but this is your stated HERO, so the facts do not sit well with you.

Global Administrator wrote:

Like all failed spin-doctors you take one part from a detailed report to spin it to hopefully prove your point.

The FACTS were reported above.

Feigenbaum as I stated has a Criminal Conviction for Contempt Of Court for printing more Tuvalu stamps in breach of the injunction.

The PRISON TERM he got for that was revoked on appeal but the CONVICTION and the fine still stood as can be clearly seen - by all but you - it seems.




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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:10:22 pm 
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Quote:
Clive Feigenbaum appealed and on the 20th of October, 1989, the Judge of the Court of Appeal “felt the imposition of a prison sentence a very grave punishment’ in view of Mr. Feigenbaum’s ‘good record and character’. The sentence of three months imprisonment was quashed and there was not order for costs.

The Philatelic Exporter, Editor and Publisher Graham R. Phillips, June 1992, Pg. 4-5





Where does it say
Quote:
The Conviction for Contempt Of court, and fine remained.

For the fourth time your statements are your own. Not the Exporters...not the courts. Not Clive's.

the prison sentence was "quashed" and "there was not order for costs".
Direct from your holy article :twisted: Do you understand the meaning of
there was not order for costs

As far as the Exporter was concerned it obviously sat fine with Mr. Feigenbaum. I do not think being the busy guy he was that he
gave a toot what the little newspaper Exporter said as long as they were not calling him a liar or accusing him.

It seems that you want so badly to be right that you are being completely irrational. What with all the gigantic posting and flaunting about with this one article I can see that you are being way to shallow to even have a conversation with. How about you get something more than this one article to prove your case?

Why are you so stuck on this? Has nothing to do with the thread. You obviously have an extreme hatred for the man. Leads us to believe perhaps you were involved in something shady yourself and possibly trying to deter it away from yourself? Hmmmm....more research needed. :wink:

Possibly were involved with Clive in some deal gone sour? :shock:

Possibly buddies with those who were? :roll:

You cannot win without evidence. So far all you have is this little article. We have all the copies written by the Exporter, Observer, Times...on and on. Nothing new you can show us there. All photocopies too. Not rewritten on some webpage or in some forum.
Go to the British Courts and get some evidence.
I will not respond to this irrational behavior again. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:11:54 pm 
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Global Administrator wrote:

For the 4th time it is NOT the same here - only the PRISON SENTENCE was overturned. The Conviction for Contempt Of court, and fine remained.

Had that NOT been the case Feigenbaum's lawyers would have insisted the 'Exporter' clarify the report next Edition. They did not, as it was fact.

You appear to be the only person on earth that can't see that, but this is your stated HERO, so the facts do not sit well with you.

Global Administrator wrote:

Like all failed spin-doctors you take one part from a detailed report to spin it to hopefully prove your point.

The FACTS were reported above.

Feigenbaum as I stated has a Criminal Conviction for Contempt Of Court for printing more Tuvalu stamps in breach of the injunction.

The PRISON TERM he got for that was revoked on appeal but the CONVICTION and the fine still stood as can be clearly seen - by all but you - it seems.




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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 14:59:24 pm 
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Quote:
And Kevin....Clive didn't make them...the printers made them and there were, as you can see by the signatures on them, quite a few involved including the Philatelic Agencies themselves.

P.S. I have quite a few of them some being from Tuvalu.


I'll concede that the printers made them, BUT it would have been under the direction of Clive since he was the principal of some of the business involved.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 15:49:43 pm 
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The Researcher wrote:
Quote:
Clive Feigenbaum appealed and on the 20th of October, 1989, the Judge of the Court of Appeal “felt the imposition of a prison sentence a very grave punishment’ in view of Mr. Feigenbaum’s ‘good record and character’. The sentence of three months imprisonment was quashed and there was not order for costs.

The Philatelic Exporter, Editor and Publisher Graham R. Phillips, June 1992, Pg. 4-5

Where does it say
Quote:
The Conviction for Contempt Of court, and fine remained.

CF was handed a punishment of 1. jail time; 2. a fine.

On appeal, the judge quashed the first item, but the second item is not stated as being overturned. Thus the judge decided the conviction should still stand; just the punishment was amended.

"An order for costs" means making the loser of a case pay the court costs (lawyer fees) etc. of the winner, if the winner asks the judge to consider that. In this case, the judge decided each party should pay their own costs. Its standard practice from what I've seen (having had a job previously where I did HTML formatting of legal decisions for an online database, and thus read hundreds of legal decisions) for a judgment to have as the final line a remark on costs. A semi-unrelated point to why the court hearing was held in the first place.

A question related to an earlier post you made, in which you said

The Researcher wrote:
The circumstances as to HOW they were saved will probably never be known. It is possible that between the transport from the evidence warehouse to Tuvalu for destruction some may have been shall we say "stolen"?

If the Tuvalu gov't had decided to destroy all this stamp material, why ship it all the way to Tuvalu proper to do so? Couldn't they arrange to have it destroyed in the UK? If the gov't wants to verify the destruction, hire an agent or representative to oversee the process, or dispatch someone from the Tuvalu embassy/high commission in London. Seems wasteful, ironic even, to ship something 10,000 miles just to turn around and have it shredded/burned.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 06:12:07 am 
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No court recordings of convictions.
No court recordings of convictions on ANY counts including the holy article you all reference to.
If there is a conviction then there is a record.
If there is NO conviction....no record. Simple.

Just because you wish it to be so does not make it so.
Prove the conviction or all of your words are invalid and rubbish.
None of you have transcripts. None have documentation of a conviction.
Only words written in a biased article.
Quote:
held guilty of contempt of the court

these words that according to being a "spin doctor" you have twisted
into convicted.

Therefore let's see you have posted convicted even though your holy article does not state this. Spin?

I like the statement made by Mozzerb
Quote:
Well, the conjunction of the words "FACTS" and "reported in the press" is worth at least a wry grin.

Kind of puts the right perspective on it. :lol: I am not the one posting "facts" in gigantic letters all over this thread. :lol:

No stamp peddler is an authority on the subject.
Think I would stick to Australian stamps since that appears to be all you know.
Definitely no Robson Lowe.
Inputting exaggerated statements? Let's see...

Quote:
He has more for sale, so lets say 100,000 on hand on this small line. In fact I clicked on 25 units, and the order was accepted, so he has MORE than 1000,00 units of this one.


No recorded offer. Show the offer......via link. So far....a comment with no backing.
No recorded offer on THAT lot pictured.
Clarify.

On with the thread. :arrow:

aethelwulf good point. We do not have all the details on the destruction.
Quote:
If the Tuvalu gov't had decided to destroy all this stamp material, why ship it all the way to Tuvalu proper to do so? Couldn't they arrange to have it destroyed in the UK?

This is quite possible. Would kind of tie in with certain errors still being sold out of UK based and I might add Australian based dealers. There is quite the heated conflict over certain issues missing from the police evidence. In depth research is being done on the routes taken for acquisition of certain issues and it does not look good. Still....only words and suspicions at present but we are getting closer. Certain entities are beginning to feel a bit uncomfortable which is good. They should be. Might I say some have "outstanding" records. :shock:

As stated before the thread is on research of LOW trains and Cars issues and what was issued, quantities produced and what exists. :wink:
The thread is on belief that millions of a single issue or set of LOW stamps was made. :wink:

Not Clive. :arrow:
Not Locals. :arrow:
Not Trials. :arrow:
Not my site. :arrow:
Not validity (although posts of used covers is encouraged) :arrow:
Not me. :arrow:

Figure there will be another posting part of the "article" here in gigantic letters again. Anyone interested in the topic of the thread please ignore it as it is nothing to do with this thread. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 06:43:13 am 
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Quote:
As stated before the thread is on research of LOW trains and Cars issues and what was issued, quantities produced and what exists.
The thread is on belief that millions of a single issue or set of LOW stamps was made.


I would submit that understanding about Clive is important in understanding on what was issued etc since he was the crook in charge of this operation.


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