Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

I have a couple observations here; The material being sold by the Ebay seller referenced here is good, really good. Most reproductions on Ebay look like crap. One seller in Baltimore keeps listing mostly US reproductions that look washed out, like they went through a washing machine cycle in someone's pocket. Those wouldn't fool many. The US reproductions this seller is listing are about the best I've seen. What brought me up short is his listing of US banknotes. If these are full sized, he's violating US law if he ships them into the USA.

I guess I come down between two extremes here. I don't think such things should be banned from Ebay but do think they present a problem that needs to be addressed. I am one of those who detests empty spaces in my albums. I admit to having a few reproductions, mostly high value Columbians in my collection. They are clearly marked on the back and as a precaution I have a list of them tucked into the back of the album, should I not outlive my collection.

I have a sneaking feeling that the publicity given this seller with this listing is going to result in his getting a few more sales. JMO.

This is a bit of a slippery slope. In my years dealing on eBay, I have been terrified to sell anything that was "Fake." This includes VALUABLE early Spanish Postal forgeries - many thousands of dollars a piece, Sperati, Sprio Bros, etc. Early postal forgeries are particularly interesting, because these were created to cheat the system, not the collector. This material does have it's place, if properly described. Without the "dangerous" fakes, how do we build reference collections to identify the authentic from the deceptively convincing?

Furthermore, pushing ALL fakes from eBay is a slippery slope to requiring certificates for every single item listed. The days of good deals would be gone, and there would be no stamp less than the cost of certificates (so probably nothing less than $50) on eBay. eBay and PayPal basically FORCE sellers to accept returns under any condition from a buyer, so if you purchase a stamp, and suspect it is dubious, you have the recourse of a complete refund, eBay feedback, and communication with a buyer. Sellers tread a thin line in maintaining their star ratings, and trust me, no seller wants to be restricted or prevented from conducting business. Stamps are a hard enough gig as is! I agree that there are a few unsavory individuals making "replicas" but I would be willing to bet the economics of stamp auctions will drive any "forger" out of business quickly.

re.



no one is suggesting that all fakes should be banned from Ebay, Ebay.com is banning all Coin Replicas within a few days and the Stamp Manager. Ebay.com is contemplating whether Replicas of stamps should also be banned. the outcome of his decision should be known within a few weeks.

There has not even been a mention of banning Postal forgeries, Classical forgeries etc. only Computer Replicas,

David B.

Felt some may be interested, a collector I know who shall remain nameless ordered one of these lots. The 'stamps' were ok, some better copies than others. Not one of them had 'Copy' on the reverse as listed in this seller's pitch. Also the lot he ordered had a few pre 1890 US stamps, the ones he sent were sized incorrectly, too small.

Can't say I feel too sorry for my friend.

People are either being fatuous or are purposely being naive.

There is a huge different between replicas and forgeries. Forgeries are meant to deceive people from their money while replicas are for those who don't have $1,000 or dollars and aren't in a financial setting to buy expensive stamps. Rather than just having an empty spot, a replica which is clearly marked as such, is a valid tool to use.

Of course people who deem themselves "serious collectors" have an issue with this. I assume these "serious collectors" don't have any paintings that are replicated as well?

Hey it might be fine since many seemed to be retired and living off their retirement paid by others to spend on this hobby but for those still working in this economy such as myself, I rather not spend that much on something which will increase, if at all, a dollar or so in the future. A $10 replica, marked as such, will be sufficient.

As for the basis that somewhere, sometime down in the future, someone might possible somewhere sell these as real. GET REAL. Human nature is inherently built to find an advantage over others. If idiots do not do their research and do not take advice then I am all for these idiots, who don't use what is between the ears, spending their money.

This just screams "Won't anyone think of the Children?!?" type of worrying that is highly idiotic.

Katchem_ash I disagreed with your comments on another thread, and I find your latest comments insulting.

I am a retiree living on my pension. Part of my pension I contributed towards for 42 years, the other section is a disability pension. Please do not insult me with your silly statements

My opinion remains the same. Adding a 'replica' DEPLETES my collection, not 'adds to'.

Yes, as a serious collector I do not have facsimile/reproduction/copies of paintings. furniture or stamps. I have originals- even to a Salvadori Dali limited edition. If I cannot afford the real thing, I forego the 'opportunity' to denigrate any of my collections by adding something false.

I have a more optimistic view of human nature.

I beg to differ. There is absolutely no difference in effect between a forgery and a replica not marked as such - once it leaves the hands of the manufacturer. Your replica intended to fill a space is my forgery.

You think this is being over-protective. You're entitled to your opinion. Every community sets its own standards on how far it will go to protect its members. Would you advocate placing cyanide on supermarket shelves? Anti-tank guns? Of course, the free sale of replicas/forgeries isn't as serious as that, but restricting their sale is philosophically in the same class.

And where should the stamp community decide to draw the line? At the most permissive end of the scale, the most restrictive, or somewhere in between? And how should it decide? It seems to me that discussions like this are the answer.

Speaking purely for myself, I have nothing but the deepest contempt for collectors who could be satisfied with a 'replica' in place of the real thing, or at least a spacefiller. I'm a specialist, I don't mind spending (for me) serious money on my hobby, and I have gaps in my collection. These gaps cause me just as much pain as yours cause you - perhaps more pain, because I take my collection very seriously.

So who's to win? The supporters or the antagonists of 'replicas'? The majority here seems to be against 'replicas', at least unless they're indelibly marked as such. I could live with that.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony, if we keep agreeing about things, people are going to start talking!

There is no way I would include a replica in my collection. I do, however, consider some forgeries worthy of inclusion. The 2d KGV (and 2d Bridge), created as postal forgeries, are highly collectible and very scarce. The Sperati £2 Kangaroo is a work of art and worth more than the genuine item. It was made with skill and I cannot believe that Sperati, were he alive today, would be churning out laser printer rubbish.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

I absolutely agree ... and have a nice Sperati forgery in the 19th century section of my Philippines collection.

Peter, I (in turn ) completely agree about the 2d postal forgeries. If money was no object at all, I'd love to own covers with them. Sperati ... well, he didn't touch the Uglies AFAIK, so I won't comment.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Hey guys... just wondering if I'm missing something here, but it seems to me that the e-Bay picture that was posted has, clearly marked, on it "REPLICA - NOT REAL". So may I ask what the fuss is about in this case and why I should avoid that seller who has clearly indicated that they are replicas?

Or did I miss something along the way?

Thanks!

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Carmen - Collecting: Canada, Cats, Religion, Royalty, Stamps on Stamps... and worldwide, quite frankly!

You certainly did. As you can read from the post above, the wise old rich dudes are showing us poor to middle class dudes how its bad if you don't have the wealth they have and how DARE we "non-serious collectors" even think about using replicas to get stamps that arre out of our range. Maybe they would like us to be sent to a gulag for daring to use replicas that are clearly marked as such.

Glad to hear that you have contempt. I share the same contempt with collectors who are elitist which is one of the biggest hurdles to overcome in this hobby. Great that your painted yourself as one.

While you might not mind spending "Serious money" us in the real world who are under 30 have other more pressing needs such as food, paying our mortgages and other needs in this economy which dampen our ability to spend. While you might have "serious money" I don't. You might look down on me from your ivory tower and think I'm not a serious "collector" I frankly don't care.

And I love you assertion that my collection isn't loved seriously. That is funny since you've apparently seen my collection and seen how I have worked with what I have to build what I have. I'm as serious as you, more so in fact, because unlike you a "serious collector" who doesn't hesitate to spend "serious money", I spend wisely. That is the difference between you and me.

Replicas will always be used in my collection. Even if I have to print them off myself.

Katchem,

In your typical enigmatic style you've totally misrepresented the argument and twisted this into declaration of class warfare. How sad.

CGOD1, the TRUE issue for many collectors is that there are MANY, very good replicas that ARE NOT marked as such. Further, many that are marked can be cleaned or otherwise altered by disreputable individuals to pass them off as real.

I understand your desire to "fill a hole" in your album, but collectors need to be aware that, if they support the market for replicas, they are unwittingly supporting the tools that fakers use to pass off an item that is not genuine, no matter what the intent of the original creator of the fake item.

THAT'S the real argument. Katchem discredits himself by bloviating.

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"Making money is a hobby that will complement any other hobbies you have, beautifully." - Scott Alexander
I collect Souvenir Sheets postally used on cover, WW used stamps up to 1957 except everything of Brasil and Argentina.

Stamp collecting has no rules. People can collect anything
they please. But let's look at this in a somewhat different
light.

I no longer buy or appraise collections, but I used to. If I
were looking at an album and I encountered a forgery or a
replica - not clearly identified as such - I would just close
the album and say "not interested". Once I spot one, who
knows how many others were there that I didn't recognize.

On the other hand, if I did buy a collection containing clearly
identified fakes and/or replicas, I would remove them (along
with any damaged stamps) before reselling the collection.

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Jay Carrigan
http://www.jaypex.com

I frankly feel this is not about selling your collection but of filling your own collection. As long as the replica is marked and clearly identified, something which I've said countless of times, it behooves us to accept that people who are not "serious collectors", will always choose the replica route not only because it fills that empty space but they do not have the funds to do so.

Should someone, down the line, somewhere modify such replica's to sell, it is not the fault of the original buyer who used the replica to fill the gap but the seller who willfully and knowingly changed it to sell that should be to blame. Does this mean replicas are bad? It does not. It only means that the intent of buying the stamp (when monetary funds are not available) is out of their reach. Should they be blamed and derided from this practice? Of course not.

"Serious collectors" have their own rules and the do not dictate from their ivory towers what other collectors should or should not do. If they do spot a clear and marked replica, they should either move on or buy and remove it. For others, especially myself, I am fine with replicas as long as I do not have the monetary funds to spend on that one stamp.

Katchem,

Do as you wish...

But you do not answer the very REAL argument that some collectors make (whom you brand as 'elitists') that buying replicas DOES provide the fodder that forgers and fakers often use.

You can protest that that it's "not mea culpa" should some shyster later alter your clearly marked replicas in order to defraud someone of their hard-earned cash, and you can chide people for being fatuous and naive for being too trustworthy of others (frankly, I find a Pollyanna view of the world refreshing; it's sad we take advantage of them), and you can continue to make personal attacks against those you disagree with...but at the end of the day,

MAN UP and take responsibility for your contribution to the problem. If there were NO MARKET and NO BUYERS for replicas on the market, there would be less problem with FORGERIES. Don't sit there smugly and say, "I didn't do it...it's not my fault." You are the fertile ground in which fraudsters can gather their evil crop to feed to the innocent masses.

Having said all this; I will admit to playing a bit of a devil's advocate here. I'm not saying I totally agree with the viewpoint of some purists or that I can embrace their own inconsistencies related to "classic forgeries," but I at least understand their argument and can respect it. That's something you have failed to do Katchem. You're very welcome to your opinion, but if I were you, I'd be more respectful of others when expressing it.

_________________
"Making money is a hobby that will complement any other hobbies you have, beautifully." - Scott Alexander
I collect Souvenir Sheets postally used on cover, WW used stamps up to 1957 except everything of Brasil and Argentina.

Scanning stamps provides fodder that forgers and fakers often use.
Taking pictures of stamps provides fodder the forgers and fakers often use.
Scott's Reference Guides provides fodder the forgers and fakers often use.
Stanley Gibbons Reference Guides provides fodder the forgers and fakers often use.
Postal Employees provides fodder the forgers and fakers often use.

And many more provides the same damn thing that replicas do. Should we then ban all of them just for the sake of protecting the idiotic from their money? Of course not. Buyers have as much of a duty to get knowledgeable about their purchases as do the sellers. Blaming one is not the answer. Education is vitally important.



Welcome to capitalism. Seating is at your right.

You're still missing the simple fact that you have a FINISHED PRODUCT in your hand. A reference, a picture - for that matter, the REAL ITEM could be obtained from which forgers could produce numerous facsimiles.

Your response is specious; at the very best, weak. It is akin to a drug dealer saying, "if they didn't get it from me, they'd get it somewhere else." Again Katchem, you've failed to address the fact that if there were no market for replicas, there would be less opportunity for forgers.

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"Making money is a hobby that will complement any other hobbies you have, beautifully." - Scott Alexander
I collect Souvenir Sheets postally used on cover, WW used stamps up to 1957 except everything of Brasil and Argentina.

Everything has replicas. There isn't any single thing which doesn't have one. You can't just eliminate replicas and then "POOF" no forgers. Coke has Pepsi, Windows has Macs. There is replicas for everything, that is capitalism. Welcome to it.

What market was there for replicas when forgers where copying Indian states or the early British stamps?

I couldn't give a rat's you-know-what if you put replicas in your album. Your constant confrontational and out of context (not to mention false) statements are, quite frankly, starting to piss me off.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Katchem_ash, how would YOU feel if you spend $XXX on a stamp and then find out that the stamp is a replica?

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My wantlist for Malta Revenues

I wouldn't buy it in the first place. Remember what I advocate is Replica stamps that are indicated as such. Thus they have "REPLICA" somewhere on the stamp or as a cancellation. I do not advocate Replicas without this tag.

Thus I wouldn't buy it in the first place because I already know my budget doesn't accommodate the $XXX stamp.

What if it was intended as a replica, and then someone removed "replica" or "copy" or whatever from the back of the stamp and sold it as genuine?

I still don't know why anyone would spend money on replicas. If you really want a particular stamp, wait for one (maybe a spacefiller, fiscally used, etc.) to come along.

By putting a replica in its place you would still know that you do not own that stamp. That way, anyone could photocopy auction catalogues and they will instantly have lots of expensive stamps in their collection. However does that give you the satisfaction of owning those stamps?
NO

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My wantlist for Malta Revenues

Sorry chum, if you buy replicas you are not buing "wisely" , you can have a collection of scraps, wallpaper and sticky labels if you like but don't pretend its a stamp collection or that you are a " serious " collector,



What self opinionated rubbish !

As a collector of many years I accept " Old" but reject the assumption that those of us who despise spurious Locals, Bogus countries and modern replicas( I deliberately class them all together) are rich , eliteist and arrogant know-it- alls who look down on collectors on a budget.

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whatever it is -------it's better than a poke in eye with a wet umbrella !

I wasn't aware that I'd suggested you don't love your collection. I don't doubt you do. I just question the wisdom of loving replicas. You seem to have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about older, better-heeled collectors. As one of that class, I might remind you that I started out as a young and poor collector, and even then I didn't want replicas in my collection. I was, and still am, content to wait - indefinitely if need be - to fill the gaps. Gaps pain me alright, but the sight of replicas sitting in their places would pain me infinitely more.

Now, the question of spending money 'wisely'. Are you really proposing that I, and others in my category, don't know how to spend money wisely? That only the poor collector knows how to spend money 'wisely'? Just how do you define 'wisely'? Is buying replicas 'wise'? Really? As a capitalist, I like to see some sort of return on the money I sink into my hobby. I do buy wisely, and I'll achieve a tidy return on my collection when and if I sell it. That seems wise to me as a capitalist. I wonder what your collection will return when it's sold. Have your collecting decisions been wise?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

And now a different angle on this business of replicas.

You say your replicas are all marked as such. How are they marked? In tiny letters that could be perforated away, or concealed under an artistically placed fake cancellation? In pencil on the back of the replicas? Or in large indelible lettering across the front?

I wouldn't like the last solution myself, but I can't see any fundamental objection to it, on grounds of protection of the collecting public anyway. (And of course the collecting public must be protected against forgeries, or replicas so doctored as to appear genuine. The 'every man for himself' argument is just silly. If it were applied generally, we'd have no need for laws or a police force.)

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Before some of you overheat under the collar, I would point out that this is only an opinion!........and it is. katcham_ash could be displaying a sence of humour that many here have failed to pick up on? He would appear to be deliberately provoking, and perhaps finding amusement in the annoyed responses that are being returned?

As I said, it is an opinion only. However my grandson tells me that Ash ketchem is a character from a TV cartoon called pokemon. Of course he points out that the cartoon character is spelt with an 'e', and the words are reversed. I have no idea what the cartoon character is about, nor would I know Katchem_ash if I tripped over him on a dark night. Therefore any significance would escape me.

However..... enjoy what you collect and as to the subject? Well it can't change the world.

Huanga.

There have been forgeries as long as there have been stamps so nothing new just a new way of selling them.
As lond as you know I dont see a problem, I have thenm included in my collection.