Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

World's No#1 place to discuss STAMP COLLECTING and PHILATELY!
 

ZERO cost to ANYONE  -  NO annoying ads everywhere!

It is currently Fri May 24, 2013 00:31:29 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 160 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 08:18:18 am 
Offline
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 08:08:19 am
Posts: 6905
Location: Great Britain
At our local auction here in England I am generally the youngest person there by about 15 years (I'm 40). Among people my age and younger, stamp collecting has about as much social credibility as child molesting and double incontinence.

The question is, where are the next generation of collectors going to come from - I certainly can't see them emerging here in England. I'm beginning to wonder if I should sell my collection sooner rather than later before they all drop dead!

Any thoughts?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:24:09 am 
Offline
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 23:07:22 pm
Posts: 1378
Location: Melbourne Australia
Well life expectancy has increased over the past few decades so there should be a few years left.

Just as the internet has given rise to many dodgy and devious sites, it has also in my view rejuvenated stamp collecting. No more having to look up and doewn the street before you sneak into a stamp shop or shoving your purchases inside your old raincoat. Now you can secretly pursue your hobby from your own home with the many great websites offered by most dealers and of course eBay which always seems to have around 25,000 GB lots available on ebay UK.

So hang in there and help grow this hobby over the net.

_________________
very friendly ebay seller and buyer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 12:43:13 pm 
Offline
PLATINUM Shooting Star Stampboard LEGEND
PLATINUM Shooting Star Stampboard LEGEND
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 20:24:58 pm
Posts: 12549
Location: A bar somewhere near you ....
Welcome to Stampboards The Pom ... please assist us, and add a short note to our "Welcome" thread which is at:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=37

I have read that way back in the 1890s the stamp world was bemoaning the hobby had no future. The USA had issued the incredibly expensive Columbus set to $5 - complete with $1, $2, $3, $4 values ... most of which were a week's pay type level.

Neither had ANY real postal needs.

Canada did that same with the 1898 "Jubilee" set with the same massive values basically.

BRITAIN infuriated EVERYONE by changing from the "Square" £1 lilac issued 1878/82 to the "long" £1 lilac in 1884 (Cat £22.000 M) changed watermark on it in 1888 (£50,000) than they changed COLOUR to Green 3 years later (£3000)

Each £1 stamp was also a week's wages to a working man.

Vats of ink were spilt bemoaning "the hobby was doomed".

Both sets to $5 today will run you 5 figures each Mint, the SG no-one but millionaires can afford, and the hobby seems to have survived just fine in the ensuing century. :)

_________________
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 14:10:20 pm 
Offline
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 15:25:14 pm
Posts: 25807
Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia
I must admit that I am also pessimistic about the future of stamp collecting in the long term. Kids simply do not see stamps any more. Not on the mail, not in shops, not anywhere.

When I was young, hummumph years ago, virtually everybody had a stamp collection. My state school had a stamp club.

Coles carried a large liine of packet stamps. Every Newsagent had stocks of 50 and 100 different world stamps for about sixpence. Plus albums, stock books, hinges... promotions were hugely succesful (Ampol anyone?)

Geelong had at least three street level stamp shops plus several weekend traders in what we now call malls.

When I started work in Melbourne there was probably 20 or more street level stamp shops, including two in Bourke St. and one at the Paris end of Collins St. Virtually all gone! (I think only Max Stern remains, and he is in Flinders St.).

Most Newspapers had regular Saturday Stamp Columns. Gone! Britannicca Yearbook used to have an annual update on stamp prices in it's yearbook. Gone!

And we got lots of stamps in the mail to start an interest.

The 1980's speculation, I suspect, scarred many potential collectors for life.

But (there is always a but :) ) it can also depend on which part of the market you are looking at. Top quality items, such as the ones Glen mentioned in his post, plus many other classics, have only ever been affordable to those who had the time and leisure to appreciate and afford them. This market, like the market for fine art and other quality collectables will stand the test of time.

And there are still billions of people in Asia, Africa and perhaps South America who may just become wealthy enough and get enough leisure time to allow the "kids collections" to become common again, rejuvenating the juvenile market, and to have a serious positive impact on the quality market.

So while I remain pessimistic, the real answer is, "who knows?"

Norm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 17:30:20 pm 
Offline
BLUE Shooting Star Posting MADMAN!
BLUE Shooting Star Posting MADMAN!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 18:05:41 pm
Posts: 764
Location: Melbourne, Victoria.
The "Juvenile" trade never made many millionaires that's for sure, it was a meagre and labour intensive living, only made bearable by having teams of outworkers to provide the labour force to complete myriads of packets.

I know, I was involved in that side of the market, and I have evolved, so has the collector.

The market is now beginning to mature, and we begin to start to see prices for stamps reach their correct level, along with fine porcelain, artworks and antique furniture.

Look upon the packet material as the bric a brac of the collecting world, selling for beer money, and not moving very quickly at that.

For every childhood collector, only about .01 of 1% ever made it to serious philately...that's 1 in 10,000 folks.

Nowadays for each child taking to stamp collecting the retention rate is probably 50 times higher, in other words we only need 2% of the collector base of yesteryear to keep the hobby viable.

I have absolutely no doubt stamp collecting will be around for my grandchldren to enjoy!

I am seldom wrong, and will probably not live long enough to be proven wrong on this one!

_________________
FREE sample copy of Stamp News Australasia available on request to all Stampboards members!
Also don't forget to checkout our websites at http://www.kevinmorgan.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 18:09:58 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 02:10:49 am
Posts: 25411
Location: West Coast of England
Hi, Pom!

Welcome from another Brit (you've confused at least one member - Margo-z thinks I'm THE Pom!!!)

Our Local Society (check out the Club Space Forum...) has got the same issue as you with recruiting younger members. I'm 44 and the second-youngest there!!!.

One thing we do is that a couple of our retired members have set up a Stamp Club at one of the local primary schools (7-11 year olds for those not familiar with the term). It took a bit of setting up and they had to undergo CRB checks (ie make sure they don't have a criminal record...). Now there are something over 20 members, and it's hoped that some will carry on and maybe join the Society in years to come. They run an annual competition and our President (me this year) judges it and awards a prize at our annual Fair in June - last year, some of the entries were of a pretty good standard.

One interesting thing is that the majority of the juniors are girls. When I was at school, most collectors were boys - I don't know why it's changed, maybe something to do with video games?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 19:34:09 pm 
Hi Pom

I beat you by a year. I'm 39! I used to collect when I was a kid but gave it all up in my teens. When my dad died a few years back I inherited his GB mint collection. At first I thought I would just hang onto it for sentimental reasons, then I thought I would just subscribe to new issues, now I have ended up with several collecting areas! I think a lot of people come into the hobby this way.

My concern for the future of the hobby is the fact that stamps are disappearing from daily life. Other than mailings from stamp dealers, I have not received any post with a stamp on since Christmas. The post office only issues the white labels for post even if you ask for stamps and the staff there are not interested in the needs of stamp collectors. At the same time the number of new issues increases.

Will people really be interested in collecting stamps when their use is seen as archaic? How many people still collect phone cards now they are no longer in use?


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 19:36:33 pm 
Offline
Senior Member Advanced Stamp Board Guru
Senior Member Advanced Stamp Board Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 19:22:18 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Kent, England
Oops! forgot to sign in before posting my message. The message from 'Guest' above is from me. :D

_________________
Collector of: GB Mint, Commonwealth Used, Dragonflies and Charles Darwin, anything else that looks interesting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 19:45:55 pm 
Offline
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 08:08:19 am
Posts: 6905
Location: Great Britain
gavin-h wrote:
Hi, Pom!

Welcome from another Brit (you've confused at least one member - Margo-z thinks I'm THE Pom!!!)


No, I'M The Pom!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 22:36:49 pm 
Offline
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 23:53:49 pm
Posts: 13601
Location: Sydney Australia
The Pom wrote:
gavin-h wrote:
Hi, Pom!

Welcome from another Brit (you've confused at least one member - Margo-z thinks I'm THE Pom!!!)


No, I'M The Pom!


Well, I'm glad we've sorted THAT out! :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 22:51:18 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:46:06 pm
Posts: 12155
Location: That's on a need to know basis - and YOU do not need to know!
Both accounts will likely be deleted unless they BOTH sign in on the the New Member thread. ;)

One Pom a month is the stipulated ration, but we MAY make an exception. :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 23:02:11 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 02:10:49 am
Posts: 25411
Location: West Coast of England
Yep, and don't forget, I got here first.... 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 23:05:23 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:46:06 pm
Posts: 12155
Location: That's on a need to know basis - and YOU do not need to know!
gavin-h wrote:

Yep, and don't forget, I got here first.... 8)


But you were clearly told by your parole officer it was a month trial membership from April 2, and sadly today is ....... :!:


Last edited by admin on Wed May 02, 2007 23:08:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 23:07:46 pm 
Offline
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 23:53:49 pm
Posts: 13601
Location: Sydney Australia
Getting back to the future of collecting...maybe all of the future collectors will be from the sub-continent rather than Oz or UK? :o

See this article from The Hindu last week:

Bidar schoolchildren have a date with history

The Hindu 29 April 2007

An exhibition of coins, stamps and antique items was organised at Shaheen School here on Friday. It was organised by the school and the Rotary club of New Century as part of a summer camp for primary school children. After spending nearly half a day, they went back more informed about this country and its culture.

Apart from coins and antique items, the exhibition also had First Day Covers released by the Department of Posts on various occasions.

They included covers of great personalities, historical events and about Indian heritage. Apart from the images of freedom fighters and prominent politicians, the covers also contained images of personalities who contributed to art, music and folk arts.

Students got to see images of Vakkom Abdul Quadeer, Omprakash Thakur, Shiv Pujan Sahai, V. Shantaram, Lok Nayak Omeo Kumar Das, Ustad Hafiz Ali Khan, Kamaladevi Chattopadhyaya and R.S. Ruikar.

"We had neither heard of nor seen the images of most people here. We could collect rare bits of information," said Nidhi Bhagawat, a fifth standard student.

The highlight of the event was Liaquat Ullah Khan's antique collection. He has collected coins, currency notes, cutlery, weapons, documents, maps and books, and locks and keys. He explained to schoolchildren about the importance of each item in his collection. He not only gave schoolchildren enough information, but also created a hunger in them to learn more about such things.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 23:37:24 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 20:41:04 pm
Posts: 18206
Location: First star on the left then straight on till morning ...
Yes MargoZ,

Interesting kids wherever they are in stamp collecting is the only way to keep this great hobby alive.

My son (as mentioned in another forum thread) goes to the Philas Senior Youth Group. And though he is reasonably keen to collect (thematics mainly), the siren's call of XBOX, IPOD & all those other 4 letter time waster's is difficult to resist.

We can only hope! :wink:

Lakatoi 4


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 00:14:43 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 13:59:53 pm
Posts: 39391
Location: Klang, Selangor, Malaysia
Maybe there is hope yet. I have lamented the seemingly lack of interest in stamp collecting in Malaysia to Glen before and how there is not much done.

Looking at all the responses above, I guess the moaning has to stop here and since we are interested in keeping the hobby alive, see what we can do where we are.

I like the idea of stamp clubs although I never had it in school. In my primary school days in the 60s, the only kind of stamps we could get were those we rummaged in thrashcans (we call them dustbins here) and what little we could afford or simply those that came in the mail to our parents/aunts/relatives.

In the 70s and 80s there were a lot of stationery shops and supermarkets selling packets of common stamps from exotic sounding countries like Mongolia, African states (Burundi cames to mind), local stamps and a lot of East European countries. Lately, I actually don't see any more of these on sale.

Wonder whether it is a case of not much demand and therefore not much offered or so supply and therefore not much interest built up leading to less demand or what.

Perhaps forming an interest group in the local area and working together with the post office, stamp clubs, etc. might be of some use. Picking up some ideas from this thread and others and making a list.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 01:22:06 am 
Offline
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 18:10:32 pm
Posts: 686
Location: United Kingdom
I am British too, in fact I prefer the term 'English' since virtually anyone who's grandad came here on a day trip once can get a British passport these days, howevere I digress,.....

Yes I think the future for the next 10 / 15 years is very bright more so than it has been for many a year. The reasons I say this are (in no particular order)

1) The amount of money floating into and around the hobby has never been greater. Forget the 'numbers' theory and look at what people are prepared to spend.

2) Record prices being achieved at auctions worldwide not just in limited areas. These top prices permeate down through the trade to the lowest levels.

3) I run stamp fairs in East Kent and spend is rising!

4) I work for a London dealer and ditto (not SG I hasten to add)

5) The eBay phenomena - the 'Stamps' section of eBay UK is the biggest section by number of items by a large margin.

6) Stamps is a hobby which people can put down and pick up at a later date often with a goodly number of years inbetween. The number of affluent retired people is increasing in the UK, people who own their own home , have a decent pension and have money to spend. life expectancy is longer too. I agree wholeheartedly with the original creator of this thread, i am often the youngest person at auctions too, but the auction rooms are busy and many lots competitively chased.

7) SG themselves have announced record profits, whilst in part this is due to their investment (hate that word) division there is a strong eprformance across their divisions. The catalogue department in particular had a record year.

All the forgoing is I belive very positive. ebay in particular is a very positive thing in the main. Consider an elderly collector who is mentally active but not mobile. eBay is a 24 / 7 stamp auction / shop in their own home. the fact they cannot physically get to auctions, stamp shops or fairs is no longer an impediemnt to collecting, so they carry on.

The same applies for any collector regardless of age in a remote geographic location. The internet smashes the barrier.

The internet as a whole is a wonderful conduit for stamp collecting enthusiasts and businesses and it is good to see many embrace it. The world truly is a global market now and stamps have their part to play.

Finally let us not forget that stamps are the most valuable commodity in the world based on price versus weight. they are highly portable and relatively easy to exchange for cash or other commodoties - they have an intrinsic value also if decimal and valid for postage. All of this underpins the market

Steps off soap box

Peter


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 01:38:41 am 
Offline
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 21:50:21 pm
Posts: 6782
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
A numbe rof very good points Peter. I am generally positive about the future of the hobby. I have been selling quite a bit recently on Ebay and the range of buyers is huge from the stereotypical retired long term collector to relatively young people.

I was particularly taken with your comment:

Quote:
Consider an elderly collector who is mentally active but not mobile. eBay is a 24 / 7 stamp auction / shop in their own home. the fact they cannot physically get to auctions, stamp shops or fairs is no longer an impediemnt to collecting, so they carry on.


I have a regular customer who had a stroke a few years back and can't get out and about - does all of his buying online and I'm told thoroughly enjoys getting his lots delivered by the postman :)

Regards

Peter


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:43:13 am 
Offline
Suspended Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 01:44:09 am
Posts: 3753
Location: Portland, Oregon
Lucky you guys!

I just analyzed the ages of recently joined aps members and the average is approximately 53.3 years old.

The hobby has been, I think, alway's been mostly old men and I think that stamp collecting will gain in the next 25 years because many retirees collect and you baby boomers are aging (gonna kill social security!)

_________________
Jonathan


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:57:24 am 
Offline
Well on the way to 25 posts member
Well on the way to 25 posts member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:33:10 am
Posts: 24
Location: Newport Beach, NSW, Australia
I give up my lunch hour once a fortnight to run a school stamp club at the nearby primary school. Attendance varies greatly depending on what else is happening on the school calendar. Anywhere from 10 to 40 kids come along. Its being going for 4 1/2 years.

That is where the next generation of stamp collectors is going to come from. If collectors don't roll up their sleeves & run a kids' stamp club then there'll be no younger collectors coming through. Stop whingeing about the relative lack of young people in the local stamp clubs. Create your own school club!

I also help run a free Open Day for school-age stamp collectors at Philas House once every school holidays. About 30 kids come to that.

Kids are still fascinated by our age-old hobby. Yes, we have to compete against other hobbies, sports, etc but that is just a cop out by lazy people who talk about the decline in the numbers young collectors but actually DON'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!!!

INSPIRE THE KIDS TO COLLECT - DON'T BEMOAN THEIR DWINDLING NUMBERS.

Let me know when you get your school stamp club going!

_________________
Pittwater Philatelic Service - Ph: (02) 9979-1561 (Int'l +61-2-9979-1561)
Postal: PO Box 259, Newport Beach. NSW. 2106. AUSTRALIA - Office: Shop 18, 331-335 Barrenjoey Road, Newport Beach (by appointment)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 13:34:25 pm 
Offline
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 03:24:48 am
Posts: 55
Location: Ontario, Canada
There is a strong argument to be made that there are long term trends going on that are largely driven by the demographics of the last 60 years. A number of financial papers are advising that all asset classes are in a bubble market - homes, stocks, and stamps just to name a few.

The baby boomers (which include me), are at their peak of earning power and inheritances. They are powering the markets with their continuing investments in stocks, homes, stamps, and other asset classes. Over the next decade, however, that trend will top out and baby-boomers will become net sellers of these same assets as they downsize their homes, cash in their stocks to pay for vacations and new cars, and start drawing down those multi-billion dollar pension plans. When that happens, the underlying markets will strain as sellers begin to outnumber buyers....

I'm not a pessimist, and I'm still acquiring stamps aggressively, but I'm a realist too, and the longer term does not look very promising from this perspective.

_________________
Les Molnar (stampsofvictoria.com)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 17:51:01 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 02:10:49 am
Posts: 25411
Location: West Coast of England
Pittwater Philatelics wrote:
INSPIRE THE KIDS TO COLLECT - DON'T BEMOAN THEIR DWINDLING NUMBERS.


Great post, Pittwater!

I agree with every word. Two of our members at Lytham St Anne's Philatelic Society run a similar thing at one of our local Primary schools (age 7-11). It's very popular, with 20-30 members - mostly girls (which surprised me thinking back to my school days in the early '70s...).

They run an annual competition with prizes - we usually persuade the local Post Office Philatelioc Counter to donate something and the local dealers chip in too. That way, the "induatry" is investing in its future too.

Hope you don't mind if I use that quote in the future...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 17:59:26 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:46:06 pm
Posts: 12155
Location: That's on a need to know basis - and YOU do not need to know!
Don't forget China.

A nation of COLLECTORS. a BILLION of them. Dirt poor a decade ago, emerging economy now, and in 10 year time they will have a million millionaires.

Literally. Many of whom have a passion for stamps.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 21:21:40 pm 
Offline
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 23:07:22 pm
Posts: 1378
Location: Melbourne Australia
admin wrote:
Don't forget China.

A nation of COLLECTORS. a BILLION of them. Dirt poor a decade ago, emerging economy now, and in 10 year time they will have a million millionaires.

Literally. Many of whom have a passion for stamps.


May be worth stashing a few Hong Kong and China stamps away for a few years

_________________
very friendly ebay seller and buyer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 21:29:13 pm 
Offline
PLATINUM Shooting Star Stampboard LEGEND
PLATINUM Shooting Star Stampboard LEGEND
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 20:24:58 pm
Posts: 12549
Location: A bar somewhere near you ....
The market for ALL things Chinese, stamp wise, has gone insane in recent years. :idea:

Things are still very sensibly priced. I am most surprised this has not sold yet off my website:

Image

China Republic - 1912 $1 Red Goose, with the black "Maritime Customs Department Shanghai" overprint: Bright attractive stamp, with sharp proof like impression, and crisply struck overprint. Mint very light hinged, with usual faint ageing for these near hundred year old stamps.

A key Republic issue, very seldom seen, and must be way undervalued in SG the way the red-hot China market has been in the past year. SG 204 £150 = $A375. Prices at auction for better early China has been going BALLISTIC this year. This is the equivalent face value of a 1913 10/- mint Roo so still a TON of upside. $A200

_________________
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 22:19:44 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 20:41:04 pm
Posts: 18206
Location: First star on the left then straight on till morning ...
Yes China will be a huge stamp market. I understand that in the cultural revolution, stamps printed prior to that "hiccup" were considered dangerous to the revolution and thus were destroyed! :cry:

The stamps of China sold at the last few dealer auctions I have attended went for prices way, way over SG catalogue value. :shock:

Buy all of the good one's you can get your hands on (these may end up a better investment than high value roos!) 8)

Lakatoi 4


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 22:28:12 pm 
Offline
PLATINUM Shooting Star Stampboard LEGEND
PLATINUM Shooting Star Stampboard LEGEND
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 20:24:58 pm
Posts: 12549
Location: A bar somewhere near you ....
Indeed even DURING the Cultural Rev collecting stamps was regarded as bourgeois by the Red Guards, and anyone caught doing so suffered the penalty. :shock:

That is why (perversely!) all the many large and impressive Mao Tse Tung era stamps and strips are worth a FORTUNE, despite them bearing propaganda slogans and poems etc. No-one in China dared to buy them.

The stamp I have on offer above is $200 and in 10 years these kind of mint top values will be selling for 5 times that ... nothing more certain. It is all counter-cyclical stuff. Same way Roo monograms were 10 years back. :D

_________________
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 03:54:46 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:01:46 pm
Posts: 16142
Location: Croydon, Victoria
I am ambivalent on this subject. I have four kids(adults) and will probably leave my stamps to them (if I don't go broke first). They have all at one time gathered stamps, if only to get their collector's badge for scouts/guides. They all know about stamps from watching me, hoard and soak etc.

At this time, I am pretty sure the youngest (24) will collect when she gets other things like a house and kids out of the way. My eldest(30) is a Batman collector at the moment and has many thousands of dollars worth of Batman paraphenalia, I'm sue that given 1/4 of my collection he will keep it going. I used to (and still do) collect all stamps I am given- you never know who might just give you a gem- recently a friend of a friend gave me his old collection, in it were several Kangaroo SPECIMEN stamps and a 1 pound brown and blue. I informed him it was an expensive stamp but he still gave it to me.

Unfortunately it was not perect as it had a small corner off.
With prices going up even for used stamps, I doubt if many of the younger collectors will be able to afford to collect and still have their XBox or playstation, with an ever increasing number of games.

I also wonder how many of us give away stamps to foster growth in children or are we too busy putting a price on what we have. My uncle (now 95) gave me stamps when I was a wee lad, no questions asked, no value put on them. If he had 2 or more of the one stamp, he would give me one.

He only collected used stamps from his mail or from his office's mail( quite sizeable though-he worked for Consolidated Zinc-CRA.) When he was 93 he gave me his penny red collection, which he believed contained a salmon eosin and nearly all the different shades and papers( including many varieties in different shades. Other lesser collections he gave to the Missions to sell and continue their church work.

_________________
Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 09:34:02 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 13:59:53 pm
Posts: 39391
Location: Klang, Selangor, Malaysia
Met a collector who helped encourage the hobby in his own unique way. Because he had a lot of duplicates, he offered them (the Malaysian ones) at half price (from the local Malaysian catalogue) if it was pre-war (and the condition was fine used to very fine used at times) and post war at 30% off the local catalogue.

This made it more affordable to others wanting to collect these items. Purchased a bunch of the Federated Malay States leaping tigers from him and at half local catalogue (and at the second lastest catalogue to boot), this was a steal.

Have tried to encourage friends to get their children started on the hobby. So far managed to convince 2 and their kids happened to be girls. Did my little part by presenting some full sets of Australian stamps (that I soaked from kiloware) and a few other spares. Also explained the possible increase in value of some of the Malaysian souvenir sheets and a few stories of some stamps (varieties and "scarer recent stamps" like the Pahang 2 cent butterfly stamp that SG catalogues at 60 pounds sterling mint). This seems to get the young them more interested.

Cheers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 07:23:54 am 
Offline
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:21:03 am
Posts: 48
Location: UK
I can't see that anyone has raised the question wither stamp collecting when there are no new stamps (because everyone uses email etc instead).

I agree it may not happen for a long time but surely it must happen eventually.

If a 20 year old buys stamps for his collection or as an investment now what value will they have in 50 years time if no one uses stamps then.

After all rare stamps have no inherent raw material value and often are not even attractive.

The mere fact that an item is rare is not enough to give it value if that type of item is not in demand. I am sure there are many incredibly rare 78 records that have no value because there is no collector base for them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 07:30:05 am 
Offline
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 19:46:12 pm
Posts: 16587
Location: Sunny Sydney .... well Castlecrag to be precise.
Things like records are curious, and your point re 78s is true.

However with 45s and LPs the rare ones get a FORTUNE.

Most things that are no longer in current use are highly collectible.

A guide would be vintage cars for instance.

_________________
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:37:45 am 
Offline
BLUE Shooting Star Posting MADMAN!
BLUE Shooting Star Posting MADMAN!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 18:05:41 pm
Posts: 764
Location: Melbourne, Victoria.
20 years ago the average age of a Symphony concert- goer in Australia was 55..........The ABCs figures, not mine.

Today the average age of a Symphony concert-goer is guess what..............55!

I bet if you had polled stamp collectors 20 years ago, and today the figures would be much the same.

_________________
FREE sample copy of Stamp News Australasia available on request to all Stampboards members!
Also don't forget to checkout our websites at http://www.kevinmorgan.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 20:16:20 pm 
Offline
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:21:03 am
Posts: 48
Location: UK
I agree records aren't a perfect comparison but the reason that 45s and LPs are still in demand for some artists is that the artists are still listened to eg Beatles, Rolling Stones and so on in CD form and on the radio.

It is not so for the majority of old records where tastes have changed and that is particularly so for 78s where only a handful of discs are from artists still in demand eg early Beatles 78s or rock and roll. The majority of discs are worthless.

It is the fact that the music is still listened to that underpins the demand for the vintage items.

Likewise I think new issue stamps (even if we complain about them) and the daily use of stamps by the public underpins the collector market.

To play devil's advocate, if stamps stop being used daily and people forget what they are and all of the current generation of collectors are dead then who is going to pay thousands of dollars for a small piece of paper that will actually physically disintegrate eventually?

(By the way, if anyone would like to buy some 78s in excellent condition I can supply. They are mint in the original sleeves but from someone you have never heard of singing a song you will not enjoy, but they are very very rare and I paid a lot of money for them in an auction a few years ago. I now need someone to buy them off me at a profit as I wish to realise my investment. :wink:)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 20:21:57 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 02:10:49 am
Posts: 25411
Location: West Coast of England
stampnut wrote:
(By the way, if anyone would like to buy some 78s in excellent condition I can supply. They are mint in the original sleeves but from someone you have never heard of singing a song you will not enjoy, but they are very very rare and I paid a lot of money for them in an auction a few years ago. I now need someone to buy them off me at a profit as I wish to realise my investment. :wink:)


You could put them on Bidferret :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 04:05:57 am 
Offline
PLATINUM Shooting Star Stampboard LEGEND
PLATINUM Shooting Star Stampboard LEGEND
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 20:24:58 pm
Posts: 12549
Location: A bar somewhere near you ....
stampnut wrote:


To play devil's advocate, if stamps stop being used daily and people forget what they are and all of the current generation of collectors are dead then who is going to pay thousands of dollars for a small piece of paper that will actually physically disintegrate eventually?



I guess you might argue cigarette cards and lead soldiers and old cameras are no longer used or made, and date to the WWI 78s era.

Try selling the better vintage cricketer sets, sets of soldiers, early Dinky Toys, or early Kodaks and then tell me there is no interest. ;)

_________________
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:27:39 am 
Offline
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:21:03 am
Posts: 48
Location: UK
Apart from the cigarette cards those items are far more physically robust than stamps.

Some classic stamps are already over 150 years old, how much longer can they last, even if kept in perfect conditions?

The Norwegians have a seed-bank deep in a mountain to preserve a sample of the seeds of all plants against natural disaster or nuclear war etc.

If we believe that people will still be interested in stamps in 100 years, perhaps philatelists should start a digital archive of the greatest stamps before they turn to dust.

Alternatively, send me all of your great rareties and I will volunteer to preserve them in hermetically sealed conditions for future generations.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 14:20:34 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 20:41:04 pm
Posts: 18206
Location: First star on the left then straight on till morning ...
You'll not be getting my great rarities! :wink:

Still I take your point on the issue of stamp longevity. Paper has a finite life no matter how well it is kept. I would think that with the relativily poor type of paper used for most stamps, the lifespan would be no more than 300 to 400 years max.

Now let me do the maths:

1840 + say 300 years minimum = 2140.

Good, I will still have my stamps until then! :twisted:

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 17:56:47 pm 
Offline
BLUE Shooting Star Posting MADMAN!
BLUE Shooting Star Posting MADMAN!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 18:05:41 pm
Posts: 764
Location: Melbourne, Victoria.
Bach manuscripts have not disintigrated, the Dead Sea Scrolls are still around, though a bit worse for wear, but wouldn't you be if you had been made to live in a cave for a few thousand years?!

I think stamps will be around for a good few centuries both in physical state and as collectables...my collection of Penny Blacks never looked better!

Certainly they will last much longer than you or I!

_________________
FREE sample copy of Stamp News Australasia available on request to all Stampboards members!
Also don't forget to checkout our websites at http://www.kevinmorgan.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 18:22:43 pm 
Offline
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 19:46:12 pm
Posts: 16587
Location: Sunny Sydney .... well Castlecrag to be precise.
This is for sale right now on my rarity page - from 1694

http://www.glenstephens.com/1694

The documents that went on the pave the wave for postage stamps.

That are in nice condition despite being 313 years old. And so it will be with stamps for another 100 years at least. By which point none of us will care. :)

Image

These documents were written just 28 years after the Great Fire Of London - which is mentioned in the text - some records were lost in the fire and they have pieced together what they could when compiling the work.

The small 'holes' you can see in the photo by the central spine, are the original 'stab holes'. When pamphlets were printed they were folded and 'stabbed'. They could then be held together with cord through these holes, when the leaves were slit on the edges to separate them.

They are gorgeous. Well over three hundred years old, yet written in English, and are proper working texts, describing the operation of the basic services of legal and economic administration.

The Glorious Revolution of 1689 is taken as the dividing line between the religious disputes that led to the Civil Wars in the mid 17th Century and the disaster of James II. A precursor to the 'modern' world that came after - imperial expansion and the consumer revolution of the 18th Century.

It is the point in Northern Europe where the old world became recognisably the world we still live in. It was no longer about the divine right of a king and ministers discussing religious disputes, but about parliamentary democracy, taxation, and trade. The actual officers that dealt with the taxes and fees are named in the 'Exact Table of Fees'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 02:17:19 am 
Offline
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 23:53:49 pm
Posts: 13601
Location: Sydney Australia
Came across an interesting article about history of stamp collecting which I thought others might enjoy- have edited it down a bit...don't let the title put you off 8)

It picks up on a number of topics explored on this forum such as age and gender of collectors, role of dealers, motivation of collectors etc etc

Cheers
Margot


Gelber, Steven M. "Free market metaphor: the historical dynamics of stamp collecting. (philately as expression of capitalism)."
Comparative Studies in Society and History 34.n4 (Oct 1992): 742(28)


Stamp collecting and industrial capitalism in the United States emerged simultaneously in the mid-nineteenth century. England issued the first government postage stamp in 1840, and other nations quickly adopted the idea. The United States printed its first official stamp in 1847, although it was preceded by the provisionals issued by local postmasters.

Postage stamps were a product of the industrial revolution. The adoption of the prepaid penny post in England, while opposed by the General Post Office, was widely supported by large merchants who understood that a low-cost, single-rate system was vital to the communication demanded by an increasingly national market.'

The adhesive label was originally conceived by the English postal reformer,Rowland Hill, as a convenience for illiterates who would not be able to write addresses on the official envelopes that he preferred as proof of prepayment.
Within a decade, almost every major nation in the world had borrowed this device, which became a symbol of the economic transformation of the nineteenth century.

I would argue that the collecting of these tokens was a microcosmic performance of the system that created them. Stamp collectors took on many of the key roles of actors in the market economy and played out various conflicts embodied in the larger society in the philatelic arena. Collectors struggled with the issue of gender roles and with the problem of distinguishing adult from child behavior, but at the same time they attempted to reconcile the psychic rewards of the hobby with the potentially corrupting lure of profit. These tensions were never resolved in the hobby any more than they were in the real world, but confronting the issues in both work and play gave the collectors twice the chance to make sense of their places in society.

Stamp collectors were acutely self-conscious of the ways in which their activity mimicked the real world of commerce. They appropriated the language of the commodity market and used it to both praise and criticize their leisure activity. I contend that stamp collectors transferred to the leisure sphere the discourse that defined the meaning of industrial capitalism and used the languageand images of the marketplace to legitimize both work and leisure. By making their leisure like work, they could bring to it all the honor accorded productive activity in a work-oriented society. At the same time, by replicating business activity in their spare time, stamp collectors reduced the contrast between work and play and thus made work, as well as play, less alien.

Stamp collecting is a subset of the leisure category of collecting, which in turn is a subset of a broader set of activities called hobbies. Most of the individual endeavors that we commonly think of as hobbies began before the term hobby emerged, but significantly, what appears to be one of the earliest modem uses of that word is an 1871 reference to stamp collecting. The Stamp Collector's Guide, one of hundreds of short-lived, dealer-published, nineteenth-century stamp periodicals noted that "all great men have their hobbies:
although we have records of people collecting for more than two thousand years, collecting was not perceived to be a distinct form of leisure until the second half of the nineteenth century.

By World War 11, stamp collecting had become the quintessential hobby, widely promoted as a wholesome pastime
for both young people and adults. This essay suggests that stamp collecting achieved its position as "the king of hobbies, and the hobby of kings" (George V collected, as did Franklin Roosevelt) in large part because it helped its participants define themselves in relationship to the prevailing economic
system .By recapitulating many of the fundamental structures and relationshipsof Gilded Age capitalism, stamp collecting taught and reinforced therules of the economic game.

Ross McKibbin has argued that the hobbies of the British working class provided their participants with a sense of autonomy lacking in their regular jobs. This sense of personal achievement came, however, not because they were doing something different from work;on the contrary, it was closely linked to the fact that their hobbies were verysimilar to their jobs: For example, the author of a 1956 introduction to a book on philately suggested that the hobby could boost "the
lagging ego of the average American adult," who would "find compensation for a mediocre performance in his life's work in outstanding accomplishments in the charmed world of philately." But the author's idea of compensation consisted on the one hand of building monetary value in a collection and on
the other of the possibility that "the common man" could "triumph over the exceptional man through sheer philatelic ability."'

GENDER ROLES
It took approximately twenty years for stamp collecting to emerge as a male dominated,market-oriented pastime. Women and children were the hobby's first participants, and their interest was more aesthetic than economic. Stamp
collecting had a number of qualities that made it particularly attractive to women. First, the home was the appropriate sphere for the Victorian woman, and most stamp-collecting activity took place within the home. Second, as the
people with the greatest amount of leisure time in the nineteenth century, middle-class women were the first and most frequent hobby participants.

Finally, the pictorial element of stamps made them artistic and therefore feminine. Within a year of England's first issue of postage stamps in 1840,women and schoolboys began collecting them. Punch identified collectors as "the industriously idle ladies of England," and other sources seemed surprised
when adults as well as young boys were seen collecting stamps. The first female collectors appear to have been attracted to the aesthetic properties of stamps. Indeed, the world's first collector was apparently a English woman who advertised for stamps in 1841 to cover her dressing room walls; and other women of the same era used stamps to decorate work boxes and trunks. Bythe turn of the century, however, the idea of using stamps as decorative devices had become so absurd that philatelic journals made jokes about stamp
wallpaper.

What may be thought of as the aesthetic phase of stamp collecting came to an end around 1860 with the commoditization of stamps. That year, the Boston Daily Advertiser noted that stamps were beginning to develop differential values relative to one another and that therefore amateur stamp brokers could get hundreds of common European and American stamps for just a halfdozen
rarer Mauritius or Hawaiian stamps.

Once men displaced women as stamp collectors the very essence ofthe hobby changed. As other countries adopted postage stamps, collecting spread until it reached fad proportions in Europe during the early 1860s and gave rise to an intense market-based subculture. In fact the informal, open air stampmarkets that appeared more or less simultaneously in a number of European countries in the 1860s were commonly referred to as bourse, which was also the name of the French stock market. Conceptual sets were easy to create but difficult to complete, and thus a market fordesired stamps emerged. Because men could, of course, properly engage in the rough and tumble of commodity trading, Victorian men, not women, and Victorian boys, not girls, were understood to be traders in the marketplace.

The aesthetic quality of stamps was the most problematic because the appreciation of beauty was thought to be a feminine attribute. Women collectors brought a very different set of assumptions to the hobby than did most men.
Explained one male collector, "When to us, a stamp only represents so much money expended in its purchase, the philatelic female will weave a wondrous web of sentiment around it." It was taken as a given that "women love and
enjoy bright colors and artistic pictures even more than men do" and would appreciate the opportunity to place their stamps in albums in "whatever novel and artistic designs they may devise."

This careful gender distinction between monetary and artistic value was no Victorian anomaly. In the twentieth century, women were pioneers in topical collecting. Unwilling to conform to the standard scientific taxonomy, Fay Jordan, a collector in the 1940s,amassed forty albums of nothing but violet-colored stamps, including anexample of the legendary "Post Office Mauritius.Thus, even a woman who was making a living by buying and selling stamps rejected the market model as appropriate for women and instead emphasized the "romance" in stamps, "the long journeys they have taken, the messages they have carried [and] the pictures on the stamps
themselves. "

The market model, which underlay stamp collecting from its earliest days,militated against female participation because both men and women perceived dealing as inappropriate feminine behavior. Yet there was also a fairly high
level of ambivalence in male attitudes toward the economic aspects of their hobby. It was true that the give-and-take of the marketplace provided stamp collecting with a masculine, business-like aura and that the possibility of Nevertheless, there needed to be something more creative, more meaningful, more psychically enriching, more socially acceptable, in fact, more feminine to justify philately as a hobby.

Although men almost never commented on the aesthetic or romantic aspects of postage stamps, some of the qualities embodied in those twocategories were included in the much-touted educational benefits ascribed to stamp collecting from its very earliest days. Unlike aesthetic creativity,, education was a positive good for both sexes. In addition to being educational, stamp collectors also claimed their hobby promoted
a rich social life and positive personal values. Each of these noneconomicbenefits could be, and usually was, indirectly linked to some practical economic advantages. In other words, even if the psychic reward itself brought no monetary gain, it contributed to an ideology, the work ethic, that would make the hobbyist more successful in the workaday.

PSYCHIC REWARDS
The widespread popularity of stamp collecting among boys has been attributed to the "spirit of adventure and the desire to explore foreign lands" and hypothesized that Freud would see albums as symbols of "repressed imperialism" and the desire to enjoy "the sense of universal conquest."

The educational benefits of stamp collecting were so widely promoted in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries that two researchers in the 1930s decided to test the claim that stamp collecting led to increased knowledge.Their conclusions revealed the different meaning collecting had for different
age groups. Younger stamp collectors, who accumulated rather than collected systematically, were no better informed about history or geography than their non-collecting peers. Yet older adolescent and adult collectors did in fact know more about those two subjects than non-collectors.

As early as 1871 a New Jersey stamp paper linked the educational benefits of stamp collecting with the more general advantage of wholesome leisure. Philately, it said, was not only a "pleasant pastime" but also a "useful labor." Stamp collecting kept young men at home and occupied minds that
would otherwise have been idle, said the paper, which then reminded its readers that "an idle mind is the devil's workshop." Although it may have occupied the idle mind, stamp collecting also absorbed the idle dollar that might otherwise have been spent on social vices. The "few pennies" expended on stamps were better spent there "than at a billiard table, or at the bar,"
concluded the same writer.41 A contributor to an 1892 edition of The Eastern Philatelist, who candidly signed himself "Blue Nose," recounted the sad tale of his descent from his clean philatelic life style into drinking, smoking, and gambling after he left his small-town Nova Scotia home and fell under the evil
tutelage of a big-city roommate. Fortunately he was saved from his life of debauchery when he discovered two of his fellow clerks were collectors and began to spend his evenings working on stamps with them. In the company ofthese untainted young men he was "gradually weaned from any desire" to smoke, drink, or play cards.

Although collecting is essentially a solitary pastime, stamp collectors frequently stressed the social attractions of
their hobby. What one nineteenth-century collector called "the Freemasonry of philately" was more than the casual gathering of traders on the market floor: It was the creation of a genuine community of friends.43 When R. L. Thompson wrote about the social benefits of philately in 1895, he made the hobby sound like the ultimate answer to the problem of human loneliness. His
article told of a homesick freshman collector who found a friend and protector in a dignified senior philatelist and of an urban newcomer who, after spending lonely nights in his room, was invited home by an older stamp collector to enjoy the comforts of family life.

Despite the fact that few women participated in the supposedly democratic fellowship of stamp collecting, there was
still some sense-perhaps hope is a better word-among men that stamp collecting could improve their success with the opposite sex. If there were ever a poor pastime for meeting women, it had to be the male-dominated world of stamp collecting; yet the stamp press carried a surprising number of pieces in which stamps were the vehicle through which men came to know women more intimately.

These noneconomic benefits did not come without a social price. Although it was usually suggested in a light-hearted
manner, many collectors recognized that their hobby could also become a compulsion that carried dangers of its own, albeit less than those of the saloon or gambling den. From its very beginnings in 1842, satirists made fun of the single-minded
pursuit of stamps. In that year Punch carried the frequently quoted poem that referred to stamp collectors as "Knights of the Spit-upon." The poem turns on the absurdity of "some fool in mustachios" persuading "half the town" to "fill a peck measure I With the coveted treasure I Of as many old stamps as per force can be lit upon."There is a strong sense in the literature that stamp collectors perceived of themselves as engaging in driven behavior best compared with a disease.

Along with the gently self-deprecating tone that marked so much of the material about the so-called stamp fiends and stamp mania, there are also indications that some, perhaps many, collectors were genuinely embarrassed by or ashamed of their pastime. In 1880 a New Jersey collector claimed he
had just as much right to laugh at a button collector as the button collector had a right to laugh at him.

Burdened from the beginning with the stigma of childhood play, adult stamp collectors strove to justify their participation in the hobby. While the social benefits of aesthetic pleasure, education, friendship, and moral leisure may well have held real attractiveness for collectors, it is not difficult to believe that these assets were also trotted out so frequently because they
legitimized a child's game with generally approved values. Those values,however, were not uniquely adult, and a pastime seen as childish on the one hand or maniacal on the other needed to be elevated above the merely beneficial.

Foremost among the arguments that sought to separate child's playfrom adult avocation was the stress on stamp collecting as a science.Although almost all collectors seem to have accepted
the designation of their activity as scientific, there was nevertheless sufficient ambiguity in their minds to precipitate a steady stream of questions that located stamp collecting as a hobby as well as a science. With stamp collecting is some indication of the inferiority complex felt by stamp collectors in the nineteenth century. Seven years later when a Colorado collector laid out some rules for assuring successful stamp clubs, prominent among them was the requirement that club officers be willing to admit that they were stamp collectors. "
One member stated "I did not inform my employer what my object was on my vacation was to purchase stamps, as I had a dread of telling him I was a stamp collector, fearful lest I should lose my job."

The aspects of stamp collecting that proponents deemed scientific included a variety of technical skills and knowledge having to do with water marks,perforations, engraving, and other physical properties of the stamps themselves. Scientific stamp collectors cared not about appearance but about two kinds of authenticity: first, that it was not a counterfeit and second, that it had been neither repaired nor artificially enhanced.'

Authenticity was important because a genuine and undoctored stamp had more value in the marketplace than a copy or repaired item. The idea of scientific stamp collecting was thus closely linked to the market, an aspect of the hobby that men took much more seriously than women.
Underlying the physical aspects of the stamp itself was the taxonomic structure of the entire hobby. Like biological specimens, stamps could be analyzed and placed into specific categories. Once the stamp was authenticatedand analyzed, it could then take its place as part of a defined set.

The way in which stamps were issued-by countries, in
certain denominations, with particular purposes and pictures, in given years,and so forth-allowed them to be arranged into closed sets that could be, depending on how such sets were defined, made more or less difficult to complete. The sets or series completed the commoditization of stamps bycreating scarcity and thus value.


THE MARKETPLACE OF STAMPS
For its first half century, the stamp market operated without any support and with frequent opposition from post office departments. Until the 1890s post offices not only
refused to cooperate with stamp collectors, but several governments, including Canada and the United States, actually made it illegal to exchange or sell uncanceled stamps at more than their face value.This uncooperative attitude underwent a dramatic about-face after 1894, when Portugal realized
that a collected unused stamp, especially one with a high face value, represented pure profit. Until the turn of the century, however, stamp collecting operated independently of governments through full-time dealers who sprang up to supplement the casual street markets.

When treating their stamps as commodities, collectors tended to adopt one of three models, each reflecting a different perception of the marketplace. The first, or merchant model, was most commonly used in the nineteenth century. Merchants sell or trade their stamps either to fill their own collections or to
make a modest profit on each transaction. The second model, which I refer to as the investment model, is a logical extension of the first but focuses more on the increase in the value of stamps over time than on the trading activity itself.
Both the merchant and the investment models assume that the collector is interested in enhancing his own collection and that profits, if any, are an incidental benefit. However, the third or speculative model places lucre before leisure. The speculator buys stamps low to sell high and thus changes the rules
of the game. Unlike other collectors who win by completing their sets,that there were profits to be made in selling their own surplus stamps, apparently recognized that they could make even more money by reselling stamps they had bought for that express purpose.

Boy dealers in particular were the bane of the hobby. Because of their limited capital and their apparent propensity not to fulfill their commercial obligations, these budding traders came in for a good deal of criticism from adult dealers, many of whom published the stamp papers in which the smalltime retailers ran their advertisements and who therefore bore the brunt of
complaints from mail-order buyers who failed to receive their stamps.

Observers instinctively used the stock exchange metaphor when describing this category of collectors, recognizing it for what it was, a nascent commodity market being born on the streets, as had the stock markets themselves. The writers who casually used the stock exchange metaphor when discussing
stamp collecting were not trying to make fine distinctions among various categories of collectors; they were simply using an image that was intuitively obvious to anybody watching the behavior of the philatelists. The stock exchange analogy is, nevertheless, a useful one because it incorporates a series
of separate roles that stamp collectors used to describe their own activity:
While the stamp collectors who are merchants turn their profits through small regular transactions, those who are investors and speculators seek to make money from the increasing value of the stamp commodities themselves. Their profits come not from the merchants' incremental markup but from the change
in value of the commodity in the market place as demand for the limited number of stamps increases. In other words, although the merchants act like stock exchange brokers, other collectors behave more like the stock brokers' customers-people who are looking for an increase in the value of their
personal portfolios.

INVESTORS AND SPECULATORS
By the 1930s, when stamp collecting and other hobbies were granted imprimaturs by educational and governmental authorities, speculating in duplicates had not only become routine but was implicitly encouraged by the American post office department, which churned out commemoratives at an
unprecedented rate.Collector-in-Chief Franklin D. Roosevelt and Postmaster General James A. Farley worked together to encourage the hobby, and neither man exhibited an overly refined sense of ethics when it came to stamp collecting. Roosevelt, who was as much an accumulator as a scientific philatelist, would take stamps from any source willing to give them to him; and Farley was none too punctilious about distributing specially autographed unperforated sheets to his friends. The New Deal speculative boom, however,
was merely the culmination of a tradition that blurred the boundaries among collecting, trading, investing, and speculating.

Stamps were a commodity:canceled stamps had no intrinsic value and their price depended entirely on the continuing growth of stamp collecting as a hobby. Writing in the panic year of 1894 one collector optimistically insisted that "philately to-day rests upon a sound commercial basis" but then
admitted that this was true only because of the "enormous accessions to our ranks in the near past." If collectors wanted to maintain the value of their stamps, he warned, they had better make sure that their numbers continued to increase. Collectors wanted stamps because they were valuable, but they were valuable because collectors wanted them.

Just as the idea of the marketplace underlay the entire hobby of stamp collecting, the dream of striking it rich underlay the stamp market. It was a fantasy, like winning the lottery or
finding buried treasure. All the collector needed was knowledge of which stamps were rare-and some luck. The standard twentieth-century stamp histories are replete with accounts of great stamp finds, many of which involve
taking advantage of ignorant janitors -there were almost no articles in the nineteenth-century stamp periodicals about
people actually finding a rare stamp on an old envelope in a trunk in the attic.

The sense that profit was a perversion of the proper reason to collect ran through most stamp literature from the mid-nineteenth century to the mid-twentieth. But the hope that one
might was the guilty secret that lurked behind the facade of the real collector. A collector in the mid-fifties admitted that, "like some of my collector friends, I try to kid myself that the financial value of my stamps is not an animating motive," but he concluded that "few things please me more than to
find a marked increase in the catalog value of a stamp or set."l Even as writers touted the economic benefits gained by stamp collecting, they were aware of the tension between stamps as commodities and as hobby components.

Once in the market, collectors faced a set of ethical issues that blended situations in business, interpersonal relationships, and the special conflicts faced by collectors.
The ethics of stamp collecting was the final arena in which the market metaphor played itself out. Whether or not the field of philately was rife with deceit, as some collectors seemed to feel, it was certainly rife with the opportunity for deception. Theyoung collector will "soon find that few pursuits present a wider field for willful fraud than philately," warned a writer at the turn of the century. The mail order market figured prominently in the history of stamp fraud. Collectors
who ordered approvals, that is, stamps sent to potential buyers that they were supposed to purchase or return, could substitute inferior stamps for the ones removed from the approval sheets.

Because they are massproduced items of historically recent vintage, it is quite possible to have a large number of identical and equally valued stamps. The problem for collectors,
however, is to determine what that value is. Stamp catalogs, which included retail prices for all known issues, were first produced in Europe and America in the early 1860s.Yet even after the introduction of standard price catalogs the value of a stamp varied with its condition, which was, to some extent, a subjective matter. More important, highly specialized areas of
stamp collecting were not normally covered by the catalogs; and even in the best of times, catalog prices were only an approximation based on the previous year's sales.' Thus, the expert who attended sales and auctions read some of the dozens of stamp papers that existed at any given time and stayed abreast of the changing fashions in stamp collecting was in a position to recognize value in an item that would appear uninteresting to the beginning or less knowledgeable collector. Even though the stamp market was a much
more rational economic environment than the art market, there was still agreat deal of leeway for an expert to exploit a neophyte.

An English writer in the 1920s resolved the issue by assuming there was a clear split between professionals and amateurs and that professionals, that is,dealers, because trading stamps was their livelihood, were justified in taking advantage of customer ignorance. However, he believed amateurs "should
not take advantage of a layman seller's ignorance, because the seller has no reason to believe that an amateur will offer less than he considers an article to be worth. As we have seen, however, the division between amateur collector and professional dealer was frequently blurred, and, in any event,
most writers were loathe to accept such Darwinian ethics, even for professionals.


All transactions, whether simple trades, face-to-face sales, mail transactions, auctions, or blind purchases of unexamined stamps, were exercises in the essence of capitalism. The participants had to weigh issues of individual knowledgeability and honesty and of market value in both the short and long
run. All of these issues in turn had to be balanced with the noneconomic elements of stamp collecting. The tensions existed both within the marketplace aspect of the hobby and between the marketplace and the psychic aspects. Although there was no way to resolve them, there was in fact no need
to resolve them, as it was those tensions that made stamp collecting sopopular. The psychic benefits legitimized stamp collecting as a hobby, that is,as non-work or not-for-profit behavior. Yet the myriad ways in which the hobby paralleled real life gave it another kind of legitimacy. It was a training
ground for, and an affirmation of, fundamental capitalist values. More specifically, stamp collecting mimicked the roles of the essential middlemen ofcapitalism: those who bought and sold the products that other people made.
They produced nothing of concrete value themselves, but their mutual demand or a finite supply of stamps made their pastime the perfect free market metaphor.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 02:27:23 am 
Offline
PLATINUM Shooting Star Stampboard LEGEND
PLATINUM Shooting Star Stampboard LEGEND
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 20:24:58 pm
Posts: 12549
Location: A bar somewhere near you ....
Nice find. :)

The "few pennies" expended on stamps were better spent there "than at a billiard table, or at the bar"

Couldn't agree more. coff. :!:

_________________
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 13:07:01 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 13:59:53 pm
Posts: 39391
Location: Klang, Selangor, Malaysia
MargoZ,

That was a really nice gem of an article. It is worth reading many times. Has a good balanced view of things. I particularly liked this part

Quote:
The first female collectors appear to have been attracted to the aesthetic properties of stamps. Indeed, the world's first collector was apparently a English woman who advertised for stamps in 1841 to cover her dressing room walls; and other women of the same era used stamps to decorate work boxes and trunks. Bythe turn of the century, however, the idea of using stamps as decorative devices had become so absurd that philatelic journals made jokes about stamp
wallpaper.


It set my imagination flying to a different era and trying to visualise this lady's room with stamps pasted all over the wall. Have seem wrapping paper with the designs being simply stamps but it won't beat the real one.

With your OK, I would like to copy this and post it on the PSM (Philatelic Society of Malaysia) forum with acknowledgement (contributed by MargoZ, Stampboards) if that is okay with you. Thanks.

Andrew


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 13:18:58 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 20:41:04 pm
Posts: 18206
Location: First star on the left then straight on till morning ...
Great post MargoZ, full of interesting and profound commentary 8)

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 13:24:10 pm 
Offline
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 15:25:14 pm
Posts: 25807
Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia
crosscrescent wrote:
It set my imagination flying to a different era and trying to visualise this lady's room with stamps pasted all over the wall.


Given it was 1841, they would have been mostly imperf 1d Blacks and 2d Blues. My mind simply explodes at the thought of THAT!

Norm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 13:42:32 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 13:59:53 pm
Posts: 39391
Location: Klang, Selangor, Malaysia
You said it Norm,

Imagine getting a piece of that wallpaper, still attached to the wall - would that be considered a lot more than stamps on cover? Imagination going wild again.

Andrew


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 14:04:43 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:01:46 pm
Posts: 16142
Location: Croydon, Victoria
MargotZ,
What's changed in the last 160 years, nothing much according to the article. Humans will still be humans, and there are 101 reasons for collecting. Human frailties where money is concerned, still abound and the probability of fraud. I was pleased to read the bit on ethics and the differences between a dealer and a collector. Where it was OK for a dealer to rip off a collector but not a lay person to lay person.

Thanks.
Billabong.

_________________
Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 18:37:55 pm 
Offline
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 09:07:59 am
Posts: 2242
Location: Rosemeadow. NSW. Australia
Noticed a few posts relating to the vibrant Chinese Stamp Market. Along with religion there has been a recent relaxing of the rules regarding the practising of religion and stamp collecting. I live in the Sydney area in New South Wales Australia and notice that the first two people to arrive at every stamp fair and the like are two chinese men who I would like to consider collectors however, I believe that they buy to send to China and make their millions this way. They even rummage through the 1¢ a stamp books and circuit books for that elusive gem.
Personally (although still young at 66) I believe that stamp collecting will be around for many years to come even though technology will gradually see the demise of the postage stamp as we know it.
People still collect Elvis records although he and his songs have not been around for many years now.
May the life of the smallest and greatest art treasures continue to bring smiles to those who collect them!
Brian

_________________
Start the day with a smile - its infectious


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 18:02:56 pm 
Offline
Senior Member Advanced Stamp Board Guru
Senior Member Advanced Stamp Board Guru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 00:18:47 am
Posts: 184
Location: Close to Melbourne
We need some definitions before we can pose some answers.

First there is the collector, who I prefer to call "Investor" who focuses on the Really Good Stuff, that will likely draw a capital appreciation, whereupon it will be sold to someone equally cashed up who believes it will go further. These collectors, like fine art investors, will always be around, which should delight Messrs Stephens, Dunkerley et al.

As long as Really Good Stuff remains in the marketplace there will be a supply and demand situation. Case in point was the recent Arthur Gray auction, which generated this massive collective orgasm in the industry, but which impacted on most of us very minimally. My point is, are these really collectors?

Then we have those, like myself, who collect for the sake of collecting. Those who would probably not spend more than a hundred bucks on any one stamp, and who, once in possesion of same, would not part with it for money or love. Those who expand their childhood collections, probably begun by getting "Approvals" from Seven Seas Stamps, and affixing them into squared albums with (shudder) stamp hinges, then start to focus on certain aspects of the hobby - Thematics, perhaps, or single countries, or KGV sidefaces, because of the intriguing number of variations available at a comparatively cheap price, or the Papuan lakatois for the same reason. That type of collection and collector will, sadly, decline.

Why?

1. Because, as has been said, the kids are not getting involved.
2. Because the trade in Fine Used - Cat Value 10c is non-existant.
3. Because the Postal Authorities in this country, and probably everywhere else, are now concentrating on mass production of chintzy collectibles, souvenirs, and manufactured limited editions, and you can get much better stuff in this category from Franklin Mint. It is simply not exciting to collect this mass produced, and sterile tripe.
4. Because genuinely postally used mail will eventually become automated - bar codes, scans, development of the frama so that it is impregnated into the envelope, and of course email.

Therefore the only thing left to collect is the old stuff, and because of (2) above and (1) above the 140 million 4c red QE2's for example, will ultimately finish up as landfill. Severe, you think?

I browse the occasional stamp fair and auction, and always there is a box of old stamp albums filled with cat val 10c stuff - going out at $15. Next month - going out at $12 etc. Is the seller going to keep this type of item on the shelf forever? I think not.

The answer is to get the kids involved in the type of collection we started with. I am not in a stamp club, so tell me - do stamp clubs have a junior section. Do the clubs have an active promotional group attending schools or youth groups?

Give kids a box of 1d KGV reds, tell them "There are at least 6 different varieties in this box. Find them." and you will get at least one collector out of the exercise.

(These days you may not get your box of stamps back. No, that's being cynical.)

The bottom line is, like fine art, it is destined to become the rich man's thing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 00:40:34 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:01:46 pm
Posts: 16142
Location: Croydon, Victoria
I think the Postal Agencies, AustPost,USPS and Royal Mail are doing their best to kill off stamp collecting. Issuing small numbers of high value stamps for short periods. In many cases if you don't get them mint in the first few days you miss out. Many of these stamps never see an envelope, much less a parcel.

Yes and you can buy a First Day cover for a month after the date of issue, what a joke. Then there's the kangaroo/koala reprints, how many of them have you seen on mail? Generally only infinitesmal differences with the K/K selvage being the only identifier.

You only have to look at the number of collectors and dealers who have given up buying mint stamps from the PO. Where are the future stocks going to come from, mum and dad collectors who buy a pair or a block of 4 and hang on to them 'til they die. That will not satisfy the market in 20 years time.

Ultimately, I think stamp collecting will survive but it may not be in the form we know it now.

_________________
Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:02:21 am 
Offline
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 22:34:14 pm
Posts: 14595
Location: Alpine, Texas/ Scarsdale, New York
This is only an opinion since I am also (dare I write it) a spacefiller.

I think the future will be the adults (over 50's) re-inventing the collections of their youth. Namely, to concentrate on a specific topic or theme.

The printing process has become so good that it is nigh on impossible to plate a sheet or look for color variants. Colors missing, stamps upside down etc OK but these are the outcomes of poor (we hope to think) editing of the finished products.

Or maybe people like the Royal Mail are letting all these screwed up booklets onto the marketplace in an attempt to satisfy the lottery ticket mentality?

In any case, I think developing a theme and becoming knowledgeable about the components of that theme will satisfy the intellects of future collectors beyond sticking a brand new issue from the PO into a place pre-provided on a stamp page.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 160 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: beerwagen, Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], jadrake, KGVI, Namaste, ozzstampguy and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


A powerful Google Custom Search Engine for JUST This Site

 

 

Loading
 
          

Click For Our Newest Issues

Click for our Current Auction

Internet Auctions-Buy & Sell Stamps

Melbourne 2013 - May 10-15

        

 
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.332s | 18 Queries | GZIP : On ]