Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

Jason, these look OK. The most commonly met forgeries are all on the same type of toned wove paper, and exhibit quite clean impressions, unlike the genuine stamps.

The coloured semicircles turn up in various forms on most values, as far as I can see. I believe they're probably rivet heads, such as you find on some issues of Barwani and on the sheets of the ½ Anna New Rectangular of Jammu & Kashmir (where they are the guide to settings).

Some positions in the plates of 16 were defective in some values. Row 1/8 of the 1 Pice is the best example:



(and also showing traces of a rivet head at Row 2/5). I don't have an example of the setting of the 2 Anna, or enough examples of it for that matter, to know whether the flaw on your SG 43 is constant or not.

I'd put the bulge in the frame of your ½ Anna, SG 37, down to an accident of inking, or rather over-inking. You can see the sort of thing that happened in this pair of tête-bêche pairs due to somewhat casual printing practice



And finally, I should say a big thank-you. While rummaging around among my 1930-45s, and checking the fakes, I became convinced that this cover of SG 41a





which I'd previously dismissed as a fake, is most likely genuine too. (Particularly pleasing, because I remember it came from a big mixed lot which I thought at the time was barely worth the fairly solid price I paid for it. This makes the lot a reasonable buy after all )

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Well this is great news for everything but my wallet..... at least our arrangements are fair fiscally!

Thanks Tony - I had a good feeling about them but wanted to get some more eyes on them (and add more to this thread - not sure why I didn't get responses for the past few days....!)

J

_________________
Development Owner of - [*] Stamp Image Bursting Application - http://www.drakeserver.com/
[*] Stamp Album Page Generator - http://code.google.com/p/stamp-pagegen/ - [*] Stamp Web Editor

Jason, most of that 1930-45 set of Charkhari seem to be reasonably available, as singles at least, although the laid paper printings don't come up regularly. Multiples of the better items, like that ½ Anna black on pelure, are another matter.

More broadly, Charkhari is a strangely split-personaility State. The first issue, SG 1-4, are virtually impossible in good condition, although variously battered examples come up for sale every now and then. The next two sets (the rare errors aside) are common. So are SG 15-26.

The handstamped types, SG 27-30, aren't quite as easy as Gibbons suggests.

The 1931 Pictorials are an old favourite of mine; the challenge there is to compile sets mint and CTO (forget about commercially used) of all three perfs, 11, 11½ and 12. It can be done, but one or two variations are surprisingly hard to find.

The last surcharges aren't too bad, either, if you stick to the basic set and forget about SG 56

For my own collection, I start to take Charkhari seriously from SG 15 onwards.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

When we are on the topic of Charkhari let me show (off ) mine SG44-44a (tete-beche pairs) sheet. Ex-Geoffrey Flack

_________________
Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

Very nice!

The only sheet I have is of the 1 Pice blue printed either side of the paper. It's too big to scan, but this is a single pair showing the arrangement:

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony, this is a superb example. The paper appears to be quite "thick". I have a couple of stamps on "thin" paper.

_________________
http://princelystatecoins.wordpress.com
http://oldindiacoins.wordpress.com

..and I had bought a Bamra from the same dealer.

_________________
http://princelystatecoins.wordpress.com
http://oldindiacoins.wordpress.com

Birder, AFAIK, the only attempt to survey the 1930-45 set of Charkhari was the recent article by Dan Walker in India Post. There may be material on it in the Philatelic Journal of India, but I haven't (yet) looked. It appears there's still plenty of scope for study here.

Peter Röver in his article on Charkhari in India Post (Vol. 15, page 61~) says that shortages of inks and papers during WWII caused the changes in colours and use of laid paper for some printings. Who knows what else might be out there? The State may have had sufficient supplies of red ink to reprint the 4 Anna unchanged in those days, but it may have been forced to use different papers. I don't think a laid paper printing has been recorded, but who knows? Have you checked the papers of your stamps? (Of course, beware of stamps on mesh-less, toned, mottled wove papers. These are Ahmedabad forgeries.)

The reputations of the Bundelkhand States - Bijawar, Charkhari and Orchha - seem to have suffered unduly from their falls from grace in the 1930s. This may be the time to rescue the earlier and later issues of Charkhari and Orchha at least from obscurity. (If you aren't a completeness fanatic, I'd disregard all the 1939 set of Orchha above 4 Annas. They can't have had any real postal relevance. No matter that they were inscribed 'Postage & Revenue'.)

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I was going through the covers posted by birder on his wordpress cochin travancore display. I noticed that, in most covers there are two cancellations , one on the cover and the other on the stamp and, both these cancellations are generally different. Why is that so ? Were the barred obliterators used purely for canceling the stamps ?

As an afterthought, unless one cancellation was for the dispatching p.o and the other for the receiving p.o

As they say..hindsight is often 20/20.

_________________
http://princelystatecoins.wordpress.com
http://oldindiacoins.wordpress.com

I think Only 4 anna slate violet sewing machine perf and the last one anna perf vermilion appear to be genuine others seem to be R.N.S and P.S types not meant for use.

_________________
Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

The 1 Anna looks definitely OK. I'd be inclined to pass the 4 Anna on the grounds that the monogram is almost illegible - because the PS and RNS monograms were usually applied very (all too ) legibly. I'm not sure that that is a valid test, though. It's simply my observation. I apply it to this possible might-be you-never-know SG 30



anyway

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony, there are two One Annas-- the perf and the imperf... which one do you think is OK? and which one is not....and why ?

_________________
http://princelystatecoins.wordpress.com
http://oldindiacoins.wordpress.com

The perforated 1 Anna (SG 11) is OK, I think: the monogram looks like the proper 'RS'. The other 1 Anna has the 'RNS' monogram, which would make it a remainder. (It's the same monogram as on the first stamp, the ¼ Anna vermilion, and the 2 Anna ochre in the second row.)

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Charkhari SG30 again went for 104 GBP. So afterall I was not joking last time

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160819338850?ss ... 1438.l2649

_________________
Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

And good to see that that Charkhari SG 30 (a perfectly respectable copy, but not outstanding) sold for over 20% over catalogue, on strong bidding from eight bidders, from a reputable seller. I do hope this indicates a general reassessment of Charkhari

Incidentally, I was looking at Gibbons' prices for SG 29/30 used, and I must say I think they'd be a bargain at 120% of catalogue. You see fiscally used copies fairly regularly, but postally used? My cover



is the only example I can recall seeing recently.

The prices for the Uglies in the 2013 Gibbons should make interesting reading

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Some thought-provoking sales on eBay recently:

Bhor: http://www.ebay.com/itm/290725066724



Sold for £35, which with postage comes to around full catalogue price - excluding the large 1 Anna revenue

Bussahir: http://www.ebay.com/itm/290725067151



The only 100% certain non-remainder there is the 1 Anna, SG 11, cat. £24. As this lot sold for £105, someone must be gambling on the 4 Anna above the good 1 Anna being SG 19, cat. £350. Could be a good bet, too

Duttia: http://www.ebay.com/itm/300722706606



This is basically a nice stock selection of the commoner items from the 1899-1906 series. Sold for £85.31, which with postage, again comes to about full Gibbons catalogue price.

Well, if anyone was looking for further evidence that the Indian States are on the move ... The Bhor and Duttia lots were dealer stock or good starter collection material, but nothing rare or difficult.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Yeah some went for full catalogue price. I had the Charkhari only on my watch list. What do you think of the price? It went for 41 GBP.

And about these ?

Poonch : http://www.ebay.com/itm/300722707390?ss ... 1438.l2649


Dhar : http://www.ebay.com/itm/300722706546?ss ... 1438.l2649

_________________
Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

I make the catalogue value to be about £60, assuming they're all genuine and I've correctly identified the shades Two-thirds of catalogue looks generous to me for these stamps, but I have to admit that I don't really follow them closely.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

The Poonch lot is a bit of a gamble, without knowing what papers the stamps are on. Condition isn't marvellous, either. It might turn out to be on the expensive side, but then again, it might be a bargain. I've exhausted my gambling budget for the month, so I didn't try for these.

The Dhar lot was rather cheap. There was a sleeper, which I think the seller failed to identify: the 2 Anna is actually an SG 6e - cat. £140:



A nice error, but as I have one in a sheet, I didn't bother to chase this lot either.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

By the way has anybody read the Barwani column in the latest india post? I am sure tony must have read it!! Its about Four Pre-Gibbons issues.

Only just received it, and I haven't digested it properly yet. On a very quick, superficial, skim across it, I have some doubts about one or two of the claimed stamps.

Having said that, if Barwani started issuing stamps in 1917, as seems likely, then I'd be astonished if there were only four printings between 1917 and 1921, which is the first date recorded in Gibbons. Gibbons records three printings of the ¼ and ½ Anna in 1921 alone.

The 1921 date in Gibbons stems from the first reports published in the Philatelic Journal of India, in 1921. They're very confused and confusing. For example, one of the collectors who reported the 'first' issue in 1921 had sheets of what is now SG 13 in his collection labelled as the first issue. There was also great confusion over the colour. All of which suggests that, once collectors had become aware of the existence of Barwani stamps around 1921, they started trying to acquire them. As there were no dealers or collectors in Barwani, the whole process was quite haphazard.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Any idea why this stamp would fetch $149?! Its not identified correctly in the first place ( mentioned as SG O48b, infact its not an Official issue at all)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230806737726?ss ... 1423.l2649

How you get so much time analyzing all the lots (of your interest) so minutely is a mystery to me. Knowledge besides one should have time also.
You sleep well ??

My gamble at Poonch would well then be compensated by the jackpot at Dhar.

_________________
Beauty Lies In the Eyes of the Beholder.

I'll try to post the eBay image of this item later. For the present, Photobucket is freezing me out, again

The seller is perfectly respectable. I've dealt with her (him) many times, and I can't believe this is shill bidding. The item is misidentified; there is no SG O48B (or O48b) in my Gibbons. There is an SG 48b, which this stamp might be - but it's catalogued at £18. There is also the error with the same perf, and capital 'P' in 'Pies', cat. at £450 used.

You'd have to assume that some clown has misread their Gibbons, and thought they were bidding on an SG 48ba.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I sleep like the proverbial baby, Mukulgarga

Actually, that Dhar lot was quite straightforward. The 2 Anna was the money stamp, so I had a closer look at it. The misplaced corner ornament then jumped out at me. All very simple. No magic involved at all, and nothing up my sleeves

Do let us know how the Poonch lot turns out. The second 1 Anna in the top row looks to be an aniline ink printing, but it isn't listed on a blue paper. It might be a quirk of the scan/monitor, and simply be an SG 60 or 61, or it might be an unlisted type - some of these (I believe) were never actually issued during the life of the Poonch Post Office.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I have some stamps from an old collection from indian state. I will try to scan it in a quite good resolution to have identification and value, that will be nice

Please do so, gugusg. We will try to help you identify them.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Now that I can get back into Photobucket, here is the Cochin stamp:



No capital 'P' in 'pies'. Maybe it's the uncommon perf, and maybe the buyer thought that that rather over-inked surcharge was doubled. It isn't the latter, anyway.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony,

Yes, I think its the p 14 x 12 1/2 variety but as you said it shouldnt warrant $149.95..

I agree. it is 14x12.5 perf. I bought my mint one recently for under 10GBP. Seems like I go a steal! lol

_________________
Development Owner of - [*] Stamp Image Bursting Application - http://www.drakeserver.com/
[*] Stamp Album Page Generator - http://code.google.com/p/stamp-pagegen/ - [*] Stamp Web Editor

There are so many stamps like these that are not listed in Scott's. I can see this discussion board might be a very useful tool for getting help identifying that mystery box of stamps. I have a small box of mysteries myself. I might just try to take a few pictures of them and try to see what sharp eyed person here knows about them. This is GREAT!!
Nick

As promised, here are the stamps from my GF. Books have not been opened for 40 years

If you could help me identify and estimate stamps that could really help me (Indian states are not really my specialty, europe is already complicated )

next :

the end

Nick, do post away. The Indian States have so many odd corners that no catalogue could hope to cover them all. Some of the States aren't even listed in the catalogues - and who knows? - there may be stamp-issuing States still waiting to be discovered. So show us what you have, and we'll try to make sense of it for you

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Gugusg, thanks for posting these scans. I can't see any stamps that are obviously valuable from looking over these scans. However, many of them are rather complex. I will have to ask you to do some work on some of them: to check the perforations, watermarks and types of paper, and to provide individual scans of the stamps.

However, I can tell you straightaway that the two round stamps for Kashmir/Cachemire are (sadly) forgeries. Nevertheless, they are interesting forgeries. They are known as 'Missing Die' forgeries. They were made by corrupt officials in the Kashmir State Post Office, and supplied along with genuine stamps to the dealers in Europe in the early days. Because they didn't match the genuine types, they were called 'Missing Dies', and were accepted as genuine for many years. Unfortunately, they're of little value: there are many more Missing Die stamps than genuine ones.

Which catalogue are you using? The Gibbons Commonwealth catalogue is by far the best for the Indian States. It will be much easier to describe them if you have a copy of the Indian States listings in Gibbons.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Tony - Kashmir? You waste our time on Kashmir?????? But he had two Barwani! Actually the Barwani looked nice and clean. But I won't take Tony's thunder away from identifying them!

Overall as Tony said at first glance nothing outrageous, but I did want to comment that the items seemed to be mostly clean (ie. not all toned, spotted or rag-tag) which is really nice to see for a collection 40 years old+. Means the owner took some care. You also seem to have a nice selection of states there, the early Bundi if fine look quite nice.

The Bamra look ok, although they are the low values (SG26 mint and SG27 used - 2.25 and 2.75GBP respectfully)

_________________
Development Owner of - [*] Stamp Image Bursting Application - http://www.drakeserver.com/
[*] Stamp Album Page Generator - http://code.google.com/p/stamp-pagegen/ - [*] Stamp Web Editor

Jason, I thought I should withhold comment on the Barwani. If the first ¼ Anna is on laid paper, it's an SG 5, which is very nice (£23 this year). However, if it had its perf trimmed off, as the second ¼ Anna has ...

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

And, with Jason's permission , something which arrived from eBay today:





This is a Jammu & Kashmir ½ Anna on white laid paper, SG 102. The seller noted that, while the postmarks don't show the year, the cover should have dated from 1878-9, because the laid paper ½ Anna was replaced by the ordinary thin wove paper printings in 1879. Of course, it's simpler than that. The front is prominently dated '1936' (Samvat), which is equivalent to about 1879.

The cover was sent to Amritsar, with Jammu and Sialkot transit cancels, and a POSTAGE DUE 1 ANNA and a TOO LATE mark across the stamp. Quite an embarrassment of riches!

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Hello,

Thank you very much for all the replies I am ready to make closer scans and to check perfs. For paper and WM I do not know if I have enough knowledge to do that, I will try my best.

My GF were a philatelist, but not a very rich man. I am not stupid enough to think there is a very valuable here, but maybe some middle nice values could be there ... My GM need really money thats why we will probably sell his collection

For catalogues, I am french so I am often using french catalogues like Yvert et Tellier. Gibbons seems more often used

Gugusg, catalogues will be a problem. I don't have a copy of Yvert, so I don't know how it lists the Indian States, but these are normally sold by reference to Gibbons. I'll give you the Gibbons numbers where I can, and indications of the value if the stamps are much better than minimum value.

Alwar: (First row): SG 1a £10 mint; SG 1c £1.10 used
(Second row): SG 1a £3.75 mint, SG 1a used £1.10 used, SG 3 £3 used

Bahawalpur: Very pretty, but nothing of any value, I'm afraid

Bamra: SG 26 £2.25, SG 27 £2.75

Barwani: The first stamp: you will need to check the paper. It should have a watermark of parallel lines ('laid paper'). If it does have this watermark, it's SG 5 £23. If it doesn't, it is basically worthless. The perforations have been cut off the second stamp, and it has no value.

Bhopal: (First row) SG 47 £2.25, second stamp SG 43 £3.25
Rest: No real value

Bundi: SG 3 £6, SG 4 £15, SG 8 £85

Bussahir: I need a good scan, particularly of the mauve handstamp in the middle

Kashmir/Cachemire: First and second rows: forgeries, very little value
(Third row): Please check the papers of the first two stamps. They are good only if they are on laid paper (see Barwani above). No. 3 is SG 152 £1.75 - I need good scans of numbers 4 and 5
(Fourth and fifth rows): The 1/8 Anna (large yellow, middle of fourth row) is SG 139 £2.75. Again, please check the papers of all. Laid paper is good, otherwise they are minimal value

Charkhari: No value

Cochin: (First row) Please check the papers of the three yellow/orange stamps. Laid paper is good; otherwise, a few pounds. Stamp 4 SG 6 £9. Stamp 5 probably SG 3 £2.25
Row 2: If the pink stamp is on laid paper, it's very good; otherwise, little value
Rows 3 to 5: Please check the watermarks. They should be an upright umbrella. They are good if the watermark is inverted, otherwise, minimal value

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

thanks

few questions :

- how can I recognize the "laid papers" ? Do you have any link that could help me ?
- When you talk about price, I think thats price in catalog. How much are people buying related to theses values ? In french stamps it is more between 10 and 20% for most stamps and 30-50% for best items. Same thing on Indian State ?

I will try to get better scans for those required

Laid paper: It has a watermark of parallel lines. Hold one of your Jhalawar stamps up to the light: you will see the laid lines.

Prices: They vary enormously, from State to State, and even from issue to issue. You can assume around 30% for low-priced items (up to £10), and more for higher priced ones. The Bundi SG 8 might get £40 to £50.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Gugusg: Your next batch of Cochin: Again, please check of inverted watermarks on the stamps of the first three Maharajas. Inverted watermarks are very good, otherwise, these are of minimal value.

Duttia/Datia: (Row 1) SG 16a £3, SG 17c £3.75, SG 19b £4.50
(Row 2): SG 29 £5.50, SG 18 £3.25 (last) Not sure: I think the perforations may have been cut off

Dhar
SG 7b £6

Faridkot
All imitations - minimal value

Hyderabad
Row 4: Stamp 1 - Please check the perforation gauge
Row 5: Please check the perforations of all
Last row: Stamp 1 - Please check the perforations
All the others are minimal value

Holkar/Indore
All minimal value

Jaipur
Row 1: Stamps 2 and 3 - Please check the perforations
Rest - minimal value

Jhalawar
SG 1 £1.25 mint £2.50 used

Jhind/Jind
All minimal value

Kishangarh
Row 2: Stamp 1 - Please check the perforations
All the rest are minimal value

Nandgaon
SG 1a £9 SH O4a £8

Nepal
I don't know about these. I think some of the first three on the top row would be worthwhile checking.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Gugusg, your last batch of scans:

Nowanggur/Nawanagar
Row 2: Stamp 1 - This is good if on laid paper
Rest are of little value

Orchha
Minimal value

Pountch/Poonch
Probably SG 32 £5.50

Rajpeepla/Rajpipla
SG 1 £5.50

Sirmoor
Row 4 SG 30 £22
Row 5: I would need larger scans of these

Soruth
All minimal value

Travancore
These are very complicated. You must identify the watermarks. This thread http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20387 will help.

Wadhwan
I would need larger scans of these.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

what are your methods to see watermarks easily ?

Thank you very much for all the identifications

On this board, you can find much more about watermark detection, just make a proper search.

Briefly, one of them is to hold your stamp and look through light source - maybe window in sunny day and you will see most of the watermarks. Then, there are fluids for watermark detection.

Next, you can underlay your stamp on the back side with black background and you can clearly see the watermark.

For detection of laid paper, the best way is probably to hold your stamp through light source.