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This CGH 4d, slightly damaged, indecipherable postmark, is the subject of this topic.

My friend's sister inherited a stamp collection. As she knew nothing about stamps and cared less, she gave the lot to my friend (a philatelist, who I'll call X) to sort into lots to put into the local stamp club's "no reserve" auction, to obtain the cash. I was invited over to his house to help sort and describe the stamps.

It was a cold winter day, and the fire was going in the lounge room.

My friend "souvenired" this 4d CGH. We were working on the lounge room table, and the junk was going straight into the fire. He found this 4d CGH triangular, extracted it from its small page which identified which variant it was, and threw the descriptive notes into the fire. (// Face on palms // )

He declared his intention to keep this stamp, and sell it himself.

To cut a long story short, the rest of the collection was auctioned. Later X asked my advice on which of the various variants of the 4d CGH this was. I had a quick check of the catalogue, told him what a fool he was to have junked the previous identifying notes, and said I am unable to identify it.

However, X remained convinced this stamp is worth a lot, based on the valuation of most of the similar stamps in the Gibbons catalogue. I pointed out that the Gibbons valuation is for a perfect stamp, and this one is damaged, so worth nowhere near that, if anything.

X then listed the stamp on Trademe (the NZ ebay-style auction site) at $260.

Meantime, he had given me his Trademe password so I could jazz up his descriptions on his listings.

After seven months, it still had no bids. Part of the reason (in my opinion) was that the stamp was so badly scanned that it looked like a black blob on a black background, and was unrecognisable. And it was damaged, with a piece missing from the base.

After seven months, his girlfriend pointed out to me that it still had not sold. I looked at it, and said I could enhance the unviewable photo, so downloaded it from Trademe, lightened it with Photoshop, and re-loaded it on Trademe. (Hence why I still have this photo stored on my computer to display here.) Then I thought, "no one will pay $260 for an unidentified damaged stamp." So I reduced the price to $20, and drew attention to the fact that it was damaged.

A few weeks later, someone bid, and it was sold at $20.

X was furious. He blames me for having deprived him of the $260 he claims was "rightfully his", and now, 2 years later, wants nothing further to do with me, ending a 30-year friendship.

I have repeatedly explained that the stamp was damaged and with unrecognisable postmark, and worthless. But I am still blamed for him losing the $260, for this "freely acquired" stamp.

So I wonder if folks on this forum can give their opinion? Do I owe X $260? Or is he over-reacting?

I'll suggest he join this forum, and give his side of things also. Thanks for your consideration of this stamp.

He IS over reacting.



He could've claimed that it was worth $10,000 - Does that mean you now owe him $10,000?

Nope.

Ending a 30 year friendship over this is plain DUMB.

If it was worth $200 - it would've sold for $200.

In that condition and with that scan, he's lucky it sold at all.


Edited to add:
With the amount of time you've spent stuffing around with this stupid stamp (probably hours) your "friend" most likely owes YOU money now anyway, depending on what you value your time at.

Panterra,

Your friend is over reacting and should thank you for the efforts you've put in to trying to sell a sub-standard stamp!

I agree with Tassie_Stamps,you are lucky sell it.

_________________
Neill

BIN USD $21.99



http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAPE-OF-GOOD-HO ... 35bcd56a68

Norm

_________________
Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

Take him out for $240 worth of dinner and drinks.
Split the bill 50/50.
Forget the stamp.
Friendship fixed.

Family and friends are more important than anything else.

BIN USD 17.92



http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAPE-OF-GOOD-HO ... 256f5351ec

Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

If that stamp was mine, I'd be delighted with 20 bucks for it

Take the prices Norm found and average them ... reduce by 90% for the damage ... and $2 would have been a good price.

Top effort getting $20 for it.

_________________
A man might as well marry ... if he finds a good wife he will be happy ... if not, he will become a philosopher.
Collecting Greater New Guinea & Macropods (Kangaroos & Wallabies).

Bruce you were extremely foolish altering the price without the vendors agreement.

Technically he is correct and you probably do owe him the difference between his reserve and the price it finally sold for.

Everything you say about the true value of the item is correct but that's not the point in question. you owe him the difference despite the unfairness of it. it was a recipe for disaster altering the reserve without his agreement.

A good friend might have been able to accept your advice as to value but obviously this guy isn't reasonable.

You are lucky he hasn't sued you as he would probably win so if i was you I'd let the matter rest and be more careful in future.

You really were on a hiding to nothing over this type of deal.

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Steven McLachlan, Shades Stamp Shop Ltd,180 Bordesley St, Phillipstown, 8145
Christchurch, New Zealand. Full time stamp dealer and collector

Sue?

Over that stamp?

You are joking right?

Far too much for this worthless rag IMHO. TradeMe bidders seem to have the same IQ as ebay ones.

Tell your 'friend' he is a money grubbing clueless Wally.

I'd allow 20 CENTS when buying such junk.

Is your friend in such financial dire straights that he is going to blame you for loosing over $200.00 in the sale of a stamp, that was not his to begin with,and was worth less than $20.00?

I suspect an ulterior motive here! Nobody ends a 30 year friendship with out good cause and a ruined stamp of less than $20.00 value (even if it was $260.00)?

"A piece of paper" is no reason to end a friendship that has stood the test of time over 30 years!!!!!?

Maybe you need to look deeper!

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I am having fun collecting WW and Indian States.

Ok, you want to look at the technical side of this............

The "Friend X" implicitly gave permission to alter, adjust, increase or reduce the amount of text, images and/or price in the listing of a stamp he "questionably" obtained, by giving his password for the listing. Any and all assistance to move the piece was expected and accomplished.

I believe "Friend X" is the one who should buy the dinner and drinks here.........and offer an apology at the same time!!

John A

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Armstrong'sStamps**http://www.armstrongsstamps.ca
Knowledge is Key.....Libraries work!

I accept Steven's comment that I should not have altered the price.

However, I only did so as I thought the stamp was a complete dud (as many folks have pointed out here.) Clearly if it was a mint pristine CGH 4d, I wouldn't have dared, and would probably have urged X to send it to an overseas auctioneer.

My point was that after 7 months of no interest, it was going nowhere. To get X some cash and clear his decks, I reduced the price.

So it got him a sale, and cleared his closet. So now I need a time machine so I can go back in time and NOT adjust the listing!

Panterra

You have my sympathies.

Your friend is a louse for essentially stealing his sister's stamp! You used the word "souvenired," which I think is extremely charitable. I much prefer the word "theft."

Looking at the stamp itself. It is almost certainly the Perkins Bacon 4d. on white paper (SG 6). This is the commonest Cape triangular. It is definitely not a De La Rue and it is not likely to be one of the ones on blued paper - see image of the stamp in Norm's first post, the one at US $21.99 for an example on blued paper.

Glen Stephens is 100% correct., it is a "worthless rag."

Literally, the stamp has no value. I truly feel sorry for the person who parted with NZ $20 for it. If you gave it to an 8 year old child as a present, I would consider it child abuse. (or at least a deliberate attempt to induce the child NOT to become a stamp collector)

Your friend is not much of a philatelist, he would have had no trouble identifying the stamp if he were. He is even worse as a sibling. He is no good as a valuer, as even, if the stamp were in pristine condition it would not be worth NZ $260. I would not want him as a friend either.

You, of course, have to decide if you wish to retain his friendship. He should be acquainted with the facts, however, he might even seek forgiveness from his sister.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney

Absolutely... this whole episode is something I've wondered about that could certainly come up in collecting, and to keep any stamp that may have any value whatsoever because of someone's ignorance is pure theft as far as I'm concerned.

My personal policy is that if someone ever gives me any kind of stamp that would have any kind of serious value, I'll tell them, period, and try to come up with a fair way of compensation to them for it. Anything else is unethical in my view.

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Carmen - Collecting: Canada, Cats, Religion, Royalty, Stamps on Stamps... and worldwide, quite frankly!

Your friend is showing that he does not value your advice, only wants to use your knowledge.
Yes, it was incorrect to reduce the sale from 260 to only 20 without checking with him, but it was only an offer to sell at 260, that was not accepted, not the real value. It was not worth 260, it was only offered at 260.
Sue.
No hope. the first thing any court would want to know is the value of the item, not what it was offered for.
Your former friend can only claim that he, knowing nothing about these issues, thought that it was worth 260. No court would accept that
It was something rare,??? not when he destroyed the notes to support even the suggestion that it "May" have been.
What do you owe him..another torn, ragged, piece of a triangle, which surely would not be hard to replace, and the "hint" that you may tell his sister what he has done.

And then point out that he now, on his admission, owes his sister the 260

If all of the above is as occured:

Your both at fault over this. Your friend is a thief and your a dil for changing the price. The loser is his sister. You both owe her for this.

The stamp offered again on ebay would fetch $5-10 with a half decent scan.

All this to lose a friendship? Frankly, err.. not much of a friendship? I bet the raging arguement that followed really brought it to and end.

For $260 I can go and secure a used woodlblock.

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

There's an understatement. That's like a used-car dealer offering junkers from the wrecking yard as "slightly damaged", or a condemned house from an estate agent as a "fixer-upper".


So he was entrusted by his sister with disposing of the material for her, as she thought he was better equipped with knowledge, and he takes advantage of opportunity to sneak what he thinks is a valuable item into his pocket...reminds me of the thread where the discussion was "when viewing a 'junk box' at an auction, do you hide the valuable items so other viewers won't bid too high and you can get a bargain?"


Throw away the reference material, then turn around and ask someone to identify it. Brilliant.

Does you friend work for the military, who see nothing illogical about spending millions to build a piece of infrastructure in a country, then turning around and bombing said construct into oblivion? (the 2nd Iraq War as an offhand example saw that, a $100m power plant built with foreign aid money was leveled).


So just because certain stamps are valuable, all of them are? Give him a packet of Australia GeoV Heads, watch him assume they're all line perfed and worth 40K apiece.

Sounds like your friend is a typical "Dreamer"... Find someone old and/or "valuable looking" and put it up for sale at a ridiculous price. Asking for $X doesn't mean you'll get X; he got exactly what rational people would expect him to get--inventory collecting dust as no-one is fool enough to pay the silly price being asked.

A 30-year friendship ended over the sake of selling a stamp for $240 less than they wanted? Tells you how much they valued your friendship.

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Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

From what I see and what I have read so far, that stamp is not even spacefiller quality, the seller obviously had no idea of what it was worth, but merely assumed it was scarce as it was a Cape Triangle, but this example is so poor, that even if it had a high cat value, this was worth practically nothing.

Someone said it was the cheapest shade possible and someone else showed examples of better ones sold at a similar price. Realistically this "rag" was worth one whole dollar at most.

Still I think, you should have asked the collector how much he wanted for it, and when they said $260, you should have got real on them, and said "I don't think you will get that for it".

Its a very fickle thing to end a 30 year friendship over.

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I collect Malta, Ireland, Malta, Tristan da Cunha, Malta, various Pacific Islands, Malta, New Zealand, Malta, Australia and Malta.

Of course, you could always buy a $20 replacement and send it to him as a "like for like", then tell him that if you ever hear another squeak out of him, you'll sue him for harrassment

What I would like to know is how do you know his name is Bruce?
Are you the friend?
I note you are both from NZ...

Woodster - good question.

However to be fair, Panterra is generally known as Bruce Henderson - more info here at base -

http://www.glenstephens.com/snjuly12.html

My doubt.

Can anyone tell me if there is any variant of this stamp which could be worth 200 USD at this condition.???

Because Panterra says his friend believed strongly it was worth so much.

Also Norm has listed a few ebay BIN items for 20 dollars. So could it be possible that there are variants to this stamp which are more costlier in better conditions???

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Started to collect post-Independence India, help me complete the voids
http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29439

Collecting Canada (just started) and CHESS on stamps.!!!!!!

No there isn't. The 'variety' would have been what issue (printer DLR or PB) or what colour (rare such as steel blue) or what die 1 or 2.

None of them are worth $260 in that condition.

It's just a normal 4d Blue, the most common COGH Triangle. That suggested catalogue value would have been the full cat value for that stamp if it had been a 'blued' example.

The most common 4d blue in the cat is worth no more than $85 at full cat and in perfect condition!

_________________
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

The two items I listed BIN prices for have been on eBay for months, with no nibbles. Both are in considerably better condition than the dog which sold for $20.00. So this seems to be a reasonably good idea. Then he can list it up for $280 again, and not sell it forever.

Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

In light of the fact that this private issue has been made public in a forum that was designed to discuss mature, relevant philatelic topics, it has become evident that a response is necessary.

Aside from the fact that no prior warning that this issue was going to be discussed in public without consent the posting of Panterra the miracle typing cat is without truth in many areas.

Fabulous that the mood of the evening had been set for all readers, almost feels like being in a fairy tale.

I will therefore address a number of points that need clarifying.

* There was no invitation to come over to assist with sorting, rather more than one request to be able to get pre sales viewing.

* Declaration of intent to retain stamp was never made.

* The value of the stamp was never the stamp itself but in the obliteration.

* Trade me password had been obtained over 2 years prior to this event to enable "Panterra" to increase their own sales on Trade Me thus resulting in increased free listings they were able to list on Trade Me per month (an issue Trade Me picked up on and subsequently rectified).

* The item under discussion did not remain unsold for 7 months, a couple is more factual! This is yet another gross overstatement of facts stated to suit the nature of the story being told by Panterra (interesting to note is the fact that this certain member had a listing on Trade Me for over 10 yrs before it sold).

* It was up to the discretion of the seller on Trade Me how long was long enough before changing the sale price.

* Panterra had never been asked to "Jazz" up the descriptions on Trade Me as that's a phrase no one uses and his descriptions are merely cut and paste from Wiki (anyone can do that!).

Aside from all these trivial facts, the core principle of this matter has been completely overlooked. It was not the matter of the monetary loss that was the issue, it was the audacity of "Panterra" editing current listings when he had been asked and then reminded more than once that he was to leave any Trade Me listings as they were.

At no time did he have authority/consent to edit or re-scan etc any listed items as we were in a learning phase and would have learnt from any mistakes we had made.

No doubt Panterra or Scuba 777 will add to this posting yet again but I would urge those keen and reputable philatelists on here to let this matter fall to the "It's a bull**** topic" category and focus on more philatelic directed topics worthy of discussion. This is more a playground vendetta and should be viewed as such.

Thank you for the opportunity to respond to this and I hope that you find relevance in what has been said.

Huh? What's the rarity in that cancel?

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

mycollecting, what area of philately do you specialize in? If in fact you are a philatelist, wouldn't you know that even a perfect stamp sometimes doesn't usually sell at catalog value?

A dog like this with an indiscernable postmark wouldn't ever be worth 10% of that:

One mistake you made was thinking that the stamp was worth more than 50 cents.

Now your ending a 30 year friendship over this stamp.

Every year on Stampboards there are dozens of dreamers who "found some stamps" and think they've won the lotto.

The average collection "found on the side of the road" or in the shed etc is worth maybe $10 or $20 - and thats for hundeds, if not thousands of stamps.

It does not matter how many months it remained unsold for. It's a miracle it sold at all.

Yep as I guessed, the replies have been regarding the monetary aspect as opposed to the core issue of this whole situation!

Well done Bruce at such a good job as you left no room for a serious response.

As previously stated, people of intelligence will no doubt read between the lines and see your fairy tale for what it is. Hopefully you find someone else to target soon.

You have received serious repsonses. Read the thread, many have said that Panterra was a bit of a dil in what he did, if it was all true.

The thread is asking what the stamp is worth, many considered replies have been given, none of which say the stamp is worth much at all and now you have stated the value is in the cancel without saying what about that smudgy cancel makes it worth well above catalogue value. It was the percieved loss of value when sold that is the main contention was it not?

Apart from that it's not really public, none of us know who you are, so nothing public about it.

I'm also aware that you joined 2 days before this thread even broke and a week later now make comments.

So what's really going on here?

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

The IP for mycollecting does check out to Auckland that much I did check.

All very mysterious why he joined days before Pantera's post, I agree, and has not made the intro post requested in writing for ALL new members.

All very suss IMHO.

Admin

It might have value as a teaching tool, to show how any collectable value has been obliterated.

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Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.
My online 'store': http://stampsfromaethelwulf.blogspot.com/

What we have here is two apparently mutually exclusive stories, both told first person without any evidence to support either point of view, indeed not even a link to the sale, which I tried to find using the Trade Me search function, but failed.

Objective facts being non existent (apart from the stamp itself which has been commented on to death) further comments would appear to be rather pointless, as without evidence for anything, nothing further can be said by we third parties who can only go by the subjective comments of the two protagonists.

Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

Mycollecting, welcome aboard, and thanks for putting your side of the story across.

Perhaps you can explain what you believe this rare obliteration to be.

To my untrained eye, it is very difficult to discern the detail on it...

All concerned

To claim that this cancellation is anything special at all is absolute nonsense. It is almost certainly a smudged Large Triangle Obliterator with the letters "C," "G" and "H" in the corners.

I have been collecting Cape of Good Hope for over 43 years and the collection now runs to over 600 triangulars.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney

Reading this thing over again, it appears 2 totally and absolutey clueless about real stamps avaricious guys, literally stole this stamp off a relative, misdescribed it and misidentified it among themselves.

And are now not speaking to each other, and blaming each other, that this piece of utter worthless junk did not get the fortune at least one of them foolishly thought it was worth.

If the stamp was indeed stolen, (from a relative of one of these NZ "Gentlemen") anything was a 'profit' - ill-gotten of course, but a profit if it cost them nothing.

I don't think I'd want EITHER of them as a friend to be honest.

Wow, it was good of "Mycollecting" to respond, I assume as its the same image, he is the seller "Panterra" is referring too. Okay you both need time out. Mycollecting, get real, that stamp was never going to be worth $260, and I think posting Panterras faults on line was a low move, however Panterra, you should have told Mycollecting how much he could expect if you offered to sell it, I mean if you said $20, Mycollecting could have said 'No I want it on for $260' etc. I consider you both good friends and would love to keep both of you as good friends, but guys this is a ridiculous thing to end a friendship over. Both of these guys have AMAZING collections and have taught me so much, and are the greatest people you could ever hope to meet, so I feel I am giving back. (Through my naive and misguied Aspergers Syndrome way).
Increase the peace!!!
At least I hope we have all learnt a valuable lesson here.

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I collect Malta, Ireland, Malta, Tristan da Cunha, Malta, various Pacific Islands, Malta, New Zealand, Malta, Australia and Malta.

Princestamps



I, for one, would like more information on these.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney

I can't give you too much information, but I can say both have spoken about their collections of Samoa, which are world standard. All 3 of us are Kiwis living in the same city. Mycollecting has an amazing collection of Samoa, none of the three of us really collect South African stamps at all. He just found that stamp in a pile of odds and ends. Panterra has several high quality collections of Samoa, and places like Cayman Islands, Turks and Caicos (Classic 1850 -1960s stuff) not modern wall paper rubbish printed up by IGPC etc.

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I collect Malta, Ireland, Malta, Tristan da Cunha, Malta, various Pacific Islands, Malta, New Zealand, Malta, Australia and Malta.

Princestamps

Many thanks.

Kindest regards, Richard