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Start the day with a smile - its infectious

Those NZ 'Adsons' are a fascinating field.

They very OFTEN are found even in kid's collections, to this day.

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Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

I might be past 60 but still feel like a kid at times

Here is post two of the backs of stamps.

If any one would like to assist me with this project I am looking for advertising posters (or reproductions) c 1900- full details under wanted to purchase thread.



Brian

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Start the day with a smile - its infectious

Great Pages Brian
I can see why you are so fascinated....It took me a while to spot where your Adds are positioned on the sheet.

This is a great thread Brian which I have just found.
It is of interest to me as I have quite a few starting with some I collected at stamp fairs over 20 years ago when living there for a year. Since then I have found many more both here in Australia as well as NZ. I must get them out and inspect them again.
Where did you come accross the posters? - stamp fairs or ?
Cheers,
Kev.

Brian, mate...................

What a great project

Fair warning though, if you get bit by this bug it IS going to put a serious strain on the wallet !!!

So you are going to collect:

ALL of the settings 1st, 2nd and 3rd?
ALL the colour variants, red print, green print, blue print
and other colour variations
ALL the perf variations 12x11.5, 12.5x12.5, 10x10, 10x12.5
12x11.5, probably another one or two (mixed)
ALL the watermark variations, inverted, reversed
ALL values, 1d, 2d, 2.5d, 3d, 4d, 5d, 6d, 8d, 1/-

I have a simplified reconstruction of all three settings which has taken me years to put together so if I can help with scans please let me know

Cheers

Roly

Looking forward to seeing more of your excellent pages

G'day Roly,
Maybe you could put the scans up on this thread?
I'm sure others would be interested too.
Cheers, Kev.

good to see an old thread come back to life

great presentation Brian and very interesting stamps. none in my collection as yet but will now know to always check the back of NZ stamps from that period.

any more scans from those that have them would be great

One little item I have had in my collection for a few years:

Front


Back

The issue of the New Zealand stamps with Queen Victoria, second sideface has got a lot of different adverts on the back of the stamps on the stamps from 1893.

These adverts were in differe colours, e.g. different shades of red, brown or lilac or in blue or green.

On the 1/- stamp there shall be the colour black for the advert, though there is a discussion if it is really a black underprint or if it is only a deep brown shade of brown advertprints.

Does anybody here on stampboard have a black advert on this issue and he or she show a display of this stamp here?

Anyway I'd like to know more about identifying the different colours.

The very good book from J.A.Robb concentrates on the plating of the adverts and shows no pictures of the different colours.

Regards,

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from beautiful SW-Germany

I have but one of these in black. As you can see, it's not the best example - it's just a tad off-centre.

Thanks a lot Mike,

it is a very interesting picture and the colour seems to be really black.

But the literature (Robb, SG) lists black adverts for the 1/- stamp only.

This could be a very interesting hint that the sepia colour which was used for adverts too could change to black.
Or you have a rare item that is not listed yet.
Regards,

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from beautiful SW-Germany

the longer I look at your picture of the advert the more I can imagine that it could be the green colour that has darkened too.

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from beautiful SW-Germany

I hadn't checked the catalogue before I posted this. I suspect you're correct that this is some sort of changeling. Odd, though.

The green changed is my guess.

Seems to me that there is no stamp I'd like to see available.
Does it exist?
What is the opinion of Roly?

Regards,

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from beautiful SW-Germany

Hmmm yes lots of conjecture on the 'black' adverts.

Then there is the problem of oxidization and that occurs particularly with the green print.

There have been the odd plate proofs hanging around as well and some have mistakenly thought they were 'black' prints.

I have all the plates reconstucted in all the catalogued colours but none of them are black.

Further (indepth) study required, I will be back........................

In the meanwhile Lars, you need to get a copy of "The Postage Stamps of New Zealand", Volume 1, Pgs 127 - 133 which cross references very nicely with the literature you alrerady have for colurs and plating etc.


Cheers

Roly

A certain oz auction has a reconstruction or two in its next sale...

Andrew

Hi Roly, hi Andrew,

thanks for the information,

regards,

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from beautiful SW-Germany

Good pic,

thank you Darren. To me it seems to have a dark violet tone, but I'm not shure either. Let's ask Roly I would say.

Anyway I like these adsons. But on colours I still have to learn a lot from experts.

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from beautiful SW-Germany

Hi Lars

There is quite a spectrum of colours found with the adverts on the New Zealand Sidefaces.

I suspect the printers didn't take quite as much care with the mixing of inks for the adverts as they did for the stamp image itself.

It is generally regarded that only the 1/- value had adverts in black (and I have attached scans of some from my own collection). Some adverts in brown or sepia are very dark indeed and are occasionally confused with black. Examples of the 3d stamp are known with a very dark brown which is as close to black as I have seen.

The example posted by Ottawamike is definitely green (only the 1d, 2d and 2½d values are known with green adverts) and the green can vary from a dark green through to a light yellowish green.

Hope this helps.

chippin

Hi chipin,

thank you for your reply and the pictures of the black adverts. It's the first time really see pictures of them.
I like your avatar (potatoe-nosed QV). Do you have this stamp?
Where could I buy this special flaw-stamp? And the black adverts: Are there any sellers who have them on stock?
Didn't find any on ebay in the last few years. Even the blue ones are rare.

Regards, Lars

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from beautiful SW-Germany

Hi Lars

The black advert is not common and can be quite expensive. I have found them in mixed lots on eBay from time to time. All the adverts have increased in price in recent years ever since Jim Robb published his excellent book on the adverts a couple of years ago.

My avatar shows a well known flaw found on the 1/- value known as the 'bulbous nose flaw' and is found at Row1, Stamp 1 from the lower right pane (the stamps were printed in four panes of 60 stamps each). It is found from printings with different perfs. I have a number of different printings.

The most likely source for any of these items are in the auctions that dealers in New Zealand have regularly. I would suggest contacting any or all of the following:- Len Jury, David Holmes, Paul Wales, Campbell Paterson or John Mowbray. An internet search should give you contact details and I am sure they will be happy to send auction catalogues or listings to you. If you have difficulty contacting any then get back to me and I can provide details.

Regards

chippin

Thanks chipin,

I'll do my very best.
Regards,

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from beautiful SW-Germany

Dave

That looks black to me

chippin

Thanks Chippin, i had better give it a bath and tidy it up then. Dave

Thought I would throw in a few more colours for folk to see how nice these adverts are. The examples below are, from top left:-

brown, brownish-purple, blue, green, rose and violet-mave

There are many many shades particularly of the brownish purple shade which varies from a reddish brown to the more purple shades. In fact others might describe the ones I have shown above slightly differently.

Best regards to all

chippin

Lars .. I listed a similar weird looking "Shotgun Through Head" flaw today for sale:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12717

Hi chippin,

thanks a lot for explaining the colours of the adverts.
That is the most difficult part of collecting and sorting these adverts. Even J.A. Robb doesn't show examples in his fascinating book on the QV-adverts.

Have a nice day, regards,

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from beautiful SW-Germany

Lars

Jim Robb does list the main colours found (page 18) but there are many slight variations which are further compounded by the effects of age, oxidation and other factors - so it can be quite subjective.

The commonest colours are the reds, red-brown, purple-brown and related shades that were used on most values throughout the life of the issue. The mauves and lilacs are relatively common although only used in the later printings. The scarcer colours are brown, green, blue and black in that order.

Plenty to keep you busy.

Regards

chippin

Hi chippin,
yes, Robb lists the colours, but he doesn't display them. So I find it hard to distinguish betwen all these red and lilac tones of colour. But your display was a great help for me.
You are right, there is plenty to keep me busy.

Regards, Lars

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from beautiful SW-Germany

This stamp has the advert - it appears - to be printed on the reverse of the stamp - I do not have a specialsed catalogue

please can anyone tell me more about this stamp?

Thank you in advance ... Michael

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Michael - email: cddstamps at gmail.com - web site: cddstamps.com
Gerneral philatelic blog: http://cddstamps.blogspot.com - Aviation / Aerophilately blog: http://cddstamps.wordpress.com

I cannot tell you a lot more - and I am certain an expert will be along in a short time to do so. Yes, it is for real. NZ experimented for a short time by actually printing advertisements on the rear of stamps (for a fee).

It is a fairly popular sub-hobby for quite a few NZ collectors these days, and reconstruction of complete sheets of advertisement stamps is (in a small way) popular.

I have a few, and certainly keep them as a fun adjunct to my NZ collection. Like everything, there is no "standard" value - some are more rare than others.

I think for "common" advertisements on the lower values, with the stamps in otherwise good condition, you are looking at around $NZ 5.00 upwards as a retail price. But don't quote me.

Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

Norm .. actually the basic SG does price all these "adsons" all very clearly, but like using kind of cataogue Michael you do need to get your stamp ID'd right, and SG 239 is not right -- OR you have a unique adson!

So check your SG as it is all listed there in detail.

The 2½d with ad can vary dramatically from £150 for SG 197, to £12-15 for SG 220.

A search here for ADSON will I am sure turn up more info.

Certainly is genuine.

thanks for replies guys.. excellent.. I'll do more research with that information

regards.. Michael

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Michael - email: cddstamps at gmail.com - web site: cddstamps.com
Gerneral philatelic blog: http://cddstamps.blogspot.com - Aviation / Aerophilately blog: http://cddstamps.wordpress.com

Norm is the Master of the understatement !!

Fair warning that if you get bit by this particualr bug you are in for a very long, expensive ride !!

Your variety for example comes in two perfs (12 x 11½ and 10 x 10)
The adverts come in three settings, the 2½d were set with either setting 2 or 3.
The advert printing colour came in Red to Brown-Red, Purple-Red to Brown-Purple, Green, Black and Mauve.
There are watermark varieties
There are advert doublings
etc
etc
In fine used CV varies from NZ$450 to NZ$40 depending on the varieties listed above.

Yes there are the dedicated few who try to reconstruct sheets using all the clour varients and then for all values from 1d rose to the 1/- Red-Brown.
The total number of varients is huge and will keep you busy for years:)

The best catalogue to get for this series is of course the Campbell Paterson Catalogue.

Likewise an email could also reap you a heap of help

Cheers

Roly

And if you're caught by the virus of NZ QV ads, the book "The New Zealand Advertisement Stamps" by J.A.Robb from 2006 is a must.

I can highly recommend it.

ISBN 978-0-473-11337-7

It illustrates all possible Ads and its varieties so that you can identify the exact position in the sheet.
No values given I#m afraid and no display of the often diffucult to distinguish varieties of colours.

But nevertheless extraordenary.

Regards, Lars

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from beautiful SW-Germany

Thank you again to everyone who added comments and advice

very much appreciated

Michael

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Michael - email: cddstamps at gmail.com - web site: cddstamps.com
Gerneral philatelic blog: http://cddstamps.blogspot.com - Aviation / Aerophilately blog: http://cddstamps.wordpress.com

Michael

Looking at your copy I would say it is perf 10 and one of the commoner colours (brown-purple) so not worth a fortune i'm afraid. The SG No. is therefore 220e. SG239 would be perf 11 and no adverts appeared on the stamps with that perf.

As others have said, this is a fascinating collecting sideline and other examples can be acquired at a very reasonable price.

There is another thread on the boards which shows adverts in different colours.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11207

If you are interested in the social history side of these adverts there are advertisements from 18 different Companies available and many of those had several different adverts.

The advert you have is from a Company by the name of B. Birnbaum & Son Ltd. They were a London based firm who set up temporary facilities in Wellington, New Zealand in 1891 to produce their "Pear Tree" brand waterproof clothing (Birnbaum is german for pear tree). They moved to more extensive facilities in the same city in 1894. Their presence in New Zealand was relatively shortlived however as they closed their premises in Wellington in October 1896.

They also had a presence in New York and Melbourne (if anyone knows anything further about their activity in those two cities I would like to hear from them). It is said they employed 150 at their Melbourne site.

Below is an advert for Birnbaum from a New Zealand paper dated 1894.



Hope you find this useful.

chippin

Hi Chippin, thanks for the post.. very interesting and I appreciate you taking the time to write

Best wishes.. Michael

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Michael - email: cddstamps at gmail.com - web site: cddstamps.com
Gerneral philatelic blog: http://cddstamps.blogspot.com - Aviation / Aerophilately blog: http://cddstamps.wordpress.com

I have read some of the available literature on the 1893 Advertising Stamps of New Zealand, but can not seem find my answer anywhere in print, so I'll ask the people who collect them.

How much of a factor is the physical condition of the stamp in your desire to collect a particular advert or printing issue? If you can get a SG#226d 1 shilling with a black advert on the back (2nd printing) and it had a small tear or corner missing, would it still be of interest if the advertisement was intact?

What percentage of value decrease (if any) does a missing perf or clipped corner have on the stamp?

I am curious to know if the actual collectors are as interested in the advertisement as they are in the stamp, are both an equal factor in value to you, or is the advert the important aspect of the stamp? Is completing a sheet more important to you than having all pristine stamps?

For those who are not familar with these stamps, in 1893 the New Zealand post office issued the 2nd side-face issue sheets with advertising on the back of the sheets......



Collectors try to reconstruct full panes of each of the 3 printings of these stamps. As you can see from this scan, some stamps are in rough shape, but you can still easily see the advert's on the stamp.

Please let me know what you think about condition in reference to this issue.

John A

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Armstrong'sStamps**http://www.armstrongsstamps.ca
Knowledge is Key.....Libraries work!

Interesting question John.

I would say that the stamp almost becomes secondary,so if it had a Red pencil line across it,it would not matter,or if it was a HEAVY cancel, again I would not think it would devalue,
However if the stamp were torn or had a corner missing I would think it would devalue the stamp as much as a Normal stamp would be devalued

Interested in others point of view, as well as from collectors of same.

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Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

I am sure that some of our NZ collectors will chime in here at some point, but I get some NZ Postal Bid sales, and undamaged singles seem to have higher reserves than the very occasional "bulk lot" that gets listed. Usually undamaged singles are listed at a minimum $NZ20.00 (with an 80% reserve) but in bulk lots they may be as little as a group, a couple of dollars each.

I imagine that, like all specialist fields, a collector will take what he/she can find, but replace it if a better copy comes onto the market, and pay what needs to be paid.

Supply and demand. It is a specialist field, so individual stamps will go for what the market (US) decides.

Norm

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Geelong, VFA Premiers 1878, 1879, 1800, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, AFL Premiers 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011, .

Hi John,

to me an undamaged advert-stamp is more valuable than a damaged one. That is very much like with other stamps.
But indeed the more important point is the advert. If someone offers a stamp with a rare advert to me (e.g. in blue or even in black), I wouldn't mind a missing corner. It would only be a reason to lower the price

As Norm said: I'd take what I can get and replace it if a better copy is for sale (if I can afford it).

Regards, Lars

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from beautiful SW-Germany

Here is another NZ advert with double printing:



The condition of this one is better.

John A

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Armstrong'sStamps**http://www.armstrongsstamps.ca
Knowledge is Key.....Libraries work!

Collectors may find assistance in identifying their stamp &
the setting position in a comprehensive, fully illustrated
book "The 1893 New Zealand Advertisment Stamps" by
J A Robb published in 2006 by the Christchurch Philatelic
Society Inc.
My copy, purchased from a stamp dealer, cost about AU$65
plus postage.

Absolutely!

That is now the bible for which setting, perf and colour you are working with. The illustrations are fantastic.

I actually have that book available on my web site!
(shameless plug)

I still find the organization of the stamps for identification a bit of a nightmare......but this reference book and the Campbell-Patterson catalogue are the most helpful I've found. As I work on them, I seem to have as many questions as there are variations on these stamps.

John A

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Armstrong'sStamps**http://www.armstrongsstamps.ca
Knowledge is Key.....Libraries work!

To librarianc,
There are also useful references to the settings, etc in
Vol 1 (pages 127 - 133) of The Postage Stamps Of New Zealand
by the Royal Philatelic Society of New Zealand.
Later volumes also make additional references to advertisment stamps, but I would need to again locate where in the nine volumes they appear.

The Campbell Patterson picture settings are not in colour, either,
so I prefer J.A. Robb's publication. He also provides 2 pages of
references to exhaustive writings on the subject.

Stampmogul