Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

(Admin note .. I split off this ths interesting discussion from another thread, as it was a little off topic there, but is a very worthy thing to discuss more fully here!)


Reprint should be reserved for items such as the Heligoland REPRINTS that were in fact reprinted from the original plates after they were withdrawn from use.

To describe something printed from new plates or even worse from a laser or ink jet printer as a reprint is very misleading.

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If no one else collects Heligoland or UPU how come I have to pay so much ?????

So are you contending that sellers should not use 'rare' but 'accurate' terms to describe their wares? I think the ACCC would have something to say about that.

Really, if a would-be buyer is too lazy to check one of the multitude of online dictionaries for the definition of what is obviously a key word in a description, then that would-be buyer deserves to do their money cold. I have no sympathy for such a buyer at all. This is a prime example of what Cato the Elder meant when he warned 'Caveat emptor'.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

As opposed to Cato the Younger, who was nothing more than a prig!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Yes, I always thought his old dad was much more simpatico. Pity more don't read De Agri Cultura these days

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Mind you, he was a bit eccentric....not too many of his class 'married' thier slaves.

The younger Cato SEEMS to have been one of the few that could ruffle the feathers of a certain G. Iulius Caesar.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Well, yes, but suicide is so final, isn't it?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

True, but very Roman. And I don't think he liked the thought of the alternative, accepting magnanimity from his sworn enemy.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

We seem to have veered from the ridculous to the sublime, Tony!

We better be careful, lest the 'on topic' police come after us!

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Is there a 'duly chastened' icon?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

No more than a 'who cares?', I think.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Not to mention the South Australian 1884 'reprints', then there's is the very valuable PNG reprints (with kapuls) etc etc. Most areas probably have their selection of these genuine correctly described 'reprints' that are not reproductions, facsimiles or fakes.

Im not disputing that. Non the fact that facsimile is a legitimate philatelic term.
What I really really really hate ( and yes for those fishermen, I am gone hook line and sinker! ) is unscrupulous sellers that specifically describe repo's to confuse people.
Describing something thats NEVER gone through the postal system as fine used, or never sold for postage as mint, is just plain WRONG.Most of the 'facsimiles' for sale on ebay US are described in multiple terms and are clearly marked on the back = no problems with bunnies or resale.

The above conversation is a really good example of why this word (facsimile) in isolation is not healthy. We all understood it - the history, the character and the Latin. Bet we are all over over 30 too.
Teenagers and young adults dont have that knowledge. My teenagers were told ' dont worry about the words you dont know - the rest of the sentence will tell you' which is fine in grade 1 but its never corrected. Spelling is phonic and english has trouble with keeping up with normal words, same way we have problems with the modern techno stuff. Anything old like Latin is irelevant and might mean a dance.
Both my boys have always researched their purchases and value money, one would ask, but the son with remedial english wouldnt even see the word if combined with fine used or mint which adequately fits/finishes the sentence.

That is that generations problem you say.
Well it is, but if we should at least appreciate the fact they dont think like us, and make a simple commitment to expect descriptions of non-genuine items to be written in an easy and understandable way.
You wonder why young people dont get involved with this hobby when you are quiet happy for bunnies to be confused and ripped off.

Since Im on roll here I may as well go for broke



You apparently-



Some examples of what is possible WHEN SELLERS CARE ABOUT THEIR INDUSTRY..

Grovyk, please look at the CONTEXT in which I made my comment about a 'who cares' icon. I was responding tp Tony's response to me about how we had gone 'off topic'.

This is an object lesson in allowing myself to go off topic!

And now I agree with Tony that we need a 'duly chastised' icon.

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Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Grovyk - You must have a lot of trouble finding a suitable lawyer, Real estate agent or used car salesman when you need one

The English language has it roots in many languages including Latin - It is part of English. To suggest we should not use words because some young person with more money than sense may not understand it is just a little on the silly side.

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If no one else collects Heligoland or UPU how come I have to pay so much ?????

Sorry PeterS I just couldnt resist that.



You must be right because Im obviously unable to make you understand exactly WHAT I mean.

Ok so adding a social and educational background synopsis was a mistake.

The bare bones-

Alot of what we know and take for granted is completely foreign to younger people (majority bunny population.).
Sooner or later we (baby boomers and older) will have to accommodate that. And that might mean adding more words to a description than what you need.

I am saying that facsimile, a word when used solo (or complicated with mint, used), can be/is used and abused by unscrupulous people who know and expect it to trick people into thinking their item is something it is not and rip them off.

The items and quotes of descriptions above show that there are better ways of describing facsimiles than just using that word solo.

I dunno, grovyk. "Facsimile" is an unambiguous word.

And what do you call it when its a 'very fine used' facsimile or a 'mint unhinged facsimile'.......

maybe thats when its turns into ambiguous.

Pandadog28
how is it described?

How is what described? , the Arthur Gray advert above?

Yes, if you were buying or selling the above scaned item, what sort/type of description would you give it or expect it to have? (intact as per scan)

Im not being silly or fishing, I think this is a good example of a complex topic.

Ok, if you sat down and cut out the 'stamps' (individually) and maybe did a little perf job on them - how would you then describe them?....you could do high res photocopies too - does that change the description.?

(This is different to the ANPEX sheets cos they arent colour matched or perfed, but lets not get too pedantic.)

Please dont be lazy and just say facsimile to everything.

A never hinged facsimile is still a facsimile. Can't really interpret it as anything else.

The above scanned image for those who dont know is a copy or almost advert of a sheetlet proof from the Arthur Gray sale, with the Shreeves Auctioneers logo and the Arthur Gray logo.

They were sent to me by Glen as part of the Catalog to the sale.

I will put one on ebay in full or cut one up, whatever you like, just to see who goes for it and donate all proceeds to a charity of admins choice. I bet it would sell even without a stupid bogus description.

Great idea.

It/they will sell, its just by how much..... all depends on the write up.

Im happy to pay fees and hopefully Glen might have a replacement for your original.

Maybe we could have a comp. for the best and worst descriptions and you pick a selection.

Mods - in view of not making things worse for bunnies and easier for crooks could you please give an ethics clearance/opinion on this research project.

I moved this discussion to a new thread, as it is interesting!

I await your suggestions on how to list the item, does it get cut up , etc etc.

As for a replacement, Glen kindly gave many away so no need for that.

Although we know there are many bunnies out there i still think it would be fun to list something else to see what happens, i await some listing suggestions and whether to break the piece up into more suggestable copies.

If you list it whole or cut up to make it really prove something (Not sure what) I think you need 2 identical items listed with different descriptions - one laying it out as to exactly what it is and one with a dubious description hinting at much better things. As far as ethics are concerned I think this would be taken care of by explaining to the bidders at the end of the auction what it was all about and giving the option to purchase or not as they wish.

Tony

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If no one else collects Heligoland or UPU how come I have to pay so much ?????

grovyk/Pandadog .. neatly cutting out the 5/- , 10/- and 20/- (and indeed the Roo vignette!) and offering separately is not unethical IMHO, if described as something like -

"Reproductions of the original and unique April 1912 official Post Office letterpress essays for the Kangaroo and Map issue. These reproductions were taken from the original Essay, with the approval of then owner of the unique piece - Mr Arthur Gray.

They are professionally printed, on quality thick ivory tinted card, matching the original most exactly, re colour and size and appearance. Very interesting item for any Kangaroo and Map collection.

The three different values, 5/-, 10/- and 20/- (the highest face value then anticipated) and also the central Kangaroo Vignette are being offered here on ebay (click on my "Others Lots for Sale" link), so you can re-unite into the 4 originals onto one album/Hagner page should you wish.

All 4 unadopted essay reprints have huge margins. These same 4 official reprints have sold in the past for $A187.50 a set, on ebay. All nett proceeds from sale of these essays are being donated to the Red Cross, Victoria Bushfire Fund - copy of the receipt furnished upon request. "

Lot heading as always is crucial for ebay, and DO pay the few cents for the lot photo preview so they'll all look like different lots - and I'd suggest list under "Kangaroos" heading as:

1912 official PO essay of unadopted design reprint. 99c start!

Start them at 99c each as 4 separate lots, and see how they go. You'll then have LOTS of second change offers to process! And the Bushfire victims will gain from the exercise.

I still have a handful of the cards I might list here at $60 or so per 10 .. and toss in 10 of the 16 page full colour A4 Gray sale summary booklets with them!

http://www.glenstephens.com/arthur-gray-kangaroos.html

Glen

Perfect. I wish i could write like that.

I will list today and post here.

I know, I know .. I should get a job in the sales area.

My GUESS is, if you list exactly as I suggest, they'll get about $20-$30 each essay. You'll get many 2nd chance offers, so one listing of 4 lots will raise several $100s for Charity, so my copywriting efforts, and your listing and mailing efforts, will benefit a great cause.

I'll mail pandadog gratis, as many sheets as he needs, to fill the orders that arise.

As I point out accurately below, these have been bid up to $187.50 per sheetlet on ebay in the past!

http://www.glenstephens.com/arthur-gray-kangaroos.html

IMPORTANT .. .. neatly cut this area only into 4 .. not the Shreves logo on left hand side!

They are on.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=190310902092

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=190310902092

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=190310902489

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=190310902612

Maybe I am just old fashioned, (or maybe I should stick to sales and marketing!), but this in the tiniest 6 or 8 point front, in VERY hard to read black on very dark blue colour combo:

Reproductions of the original and unique April 1912 post office letterpress essays for the Kangaroo and Map issue.

Taken from the original essay with the approval of the owner of the original piece, Mr Arthur Gray.

This one being the 5/ value. printed size is 32mmx 25 mm , printed on buff board with large margins.

Does not look quite as strong as (and costs no less than!) -

"Reproductions of the original and unique April 1912 official Post Office letterpress essays for the Kangaroo and Map issue. These reproductions were taken from the original Essay, with the approval of then owner of the unique piece - Mr Arthur Gray.

They are professionally printed, on quality thick ivory tinted card, matching the original most exactly, re colour and size and appearance. Very interesting item for any Kangaroo and Map collection.

The three different values, 5/-, 10/- and 20/- (the highest face value then anticipated) and also the central Kangaroo Vignette are being offered here on ebay (click on my "Others Lots for Sale" link - http://shop.ebay.com.au/merchant/pandadog28 ), so you can re-unite into the 4 originals onto one album/Hagner page should you wish.

All 4 unadopted essay reprints have huge margins. These same 4 official reprints have sold in the past for $A187.50 a set, on ebay. All nett proceeds from sale of these essays are being donated to the Red Cross, Victoria Bushfire Fund - copy of the receipt furnished upon request. "


About 50% of what I see offered on ebay would get double the price if the descriptive copy was better worded.

Sorted (ish).

Im babysitting 4 kids while my wife gets pi%$*& at the casino and im not winning at the moment. Can revise some more later.

P.S there are watchers already.

I'm not sure what this will prove - especially with the proceeds going to charity. Bidders may put in an unrealistic bid just to donate to a worthy cause.

I agree

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If no one else collects Heligoland or UPU how come I have to pay so much ?????

And the losers in that are exactly whom?

Seeing I will supply the sheets free, for however many are sold by Martin seems like a win-win to Charity I'd guess?

Great work pandadog28




The facsimile camp.

Oh yes and the proponents of open season on bunnies.!!!!!!!

OMG, .. a description with more than 5 words... and modern, relevant and understandable.

Its ok guys I know its not the ANPEX sheet and you havent completely lost the argument.

But you have to admit Glen has supported/proven my case for better descriptions

I agree with Mike. I'm afraid this won't prove anything. To be probative, it would have to appear as a simple dealer's offer to sell - no charity element evident. And if you did that, eBay would have kittens, and the lucky buyer would, rightly, be pretty disgruntled.

As it is, an interesting experiment, but of limited value.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I really do not think the charity aspect will make much difference here.

Seeing pandadog has added about half the relevant description, with rough scans, figure the real price to be DOUBLE what he finally gets, as if they they were described fully.

"The art of selling is all in the description."

Exactly 110% correct regardless of your motives or ethics.

The original discussion started with the sale of 'stamps' pulled out of A.P official facsimile sheets and sold individually with mischievious descriptions designed to maximise profit by leading people to accept or assume the item was something it wasnt. (My interpretation)

Me, myself & I argued that facsimile isnt a common word and shouldnt be used solo and especially not with words like fine used, MUH.etc More modern and detailed descriptions should be used.

The above gentlemen argued that facsimile is the correct philatelic term and if people couldnt look up the meaning in a dictionary they are fair fodder for ripping off.

So far we have seen a very good example of a well written description using the word reprint and listed on ebay. Im happy.

In all fairness we do need to look at the facsimile argument and the opposite marketing ethics. ie

Actually, although my feeble memory could easily be faulty here, I believe it is against eBay rules to sell stuff with proceeds to charity. They may get pulled if somebody reports them.

I think the charity has to be registered with eBay and then the sale proceeds through them.

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

I apologise in advance for nagging away at this question of terminology, but I do believe it's important. The distinction between 'reprint' and 'facsimile' may be a fairly novel one to collectors of modern Australia, but in other parts of the collecting world, it's of the greatest importance. Let me illustrate with three examples:



The stamp on the left is a genuine, original copy of the Jammu 1 Anna red, SG 61.

The stamp in the middle is a reprint, in fact in imitation of the companion Kashmir 1 Anna orange-vermilion SG 96 (the Jammu stamp was never reprinted, but the Kashmir stamp was). It was made from the original plate, but can be distinguished by the clearer printing, and by being in printer's ink, on better paper than the original. Some of these reprints have some small value and interest, since they came from the Jammu & Kashmir post office, at a time when it was still producing stamps. Indeed, there is some argument over the precise status of some Jammu & Kashmir 'reprints' - though not over this one.

Finally, the block at right is a facsimile of the sheet from which the first stamp came (in the bottom left corner). This facsimile sheet was copied from the illustration in Gibbons. It can be found in all the colours of a colour photocopier, and is quite worthless.

So, the distinction between 'reprint' and 'facsimile' might appear academic, and intended to confuse more than enlighten, to some collectors, but to others it is most certainly very important. Does it follow, then, that accurate descriptions are OK for the Indian States, but unnecessary for Australia?

It comes back to what we might reasonably expect of a stamp collector buyer. We'd all expect the buyer to know what a perforation was; what a watermark was; what a shade was. You would expect a collector of Sydney Views to know what 'laid' paper looks like. If you don't know, you look up a reference ... or ask here, on Stampboards. If a collector, or would-be collector, sails ahead and pays out good money, in ignorance of fundamental distinctions, and without making the effort to enlighten themselves, then it's just tough titty on that collector.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Here, Here Mr Ugly Man Very well put - Tony the almost Ugly Man

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If no one else collects Heligoland or UPU how come I have to pay so much ?????

I realise the thread heading has changed with its relocation and therefore the topic isnt quite what we started.

tonyevans1 Excellant explaination and illistration of the two terms.

I agree with the difference and the importance terminology.



This is what I mean-
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5618194254

Description


Ebay has clearly documented rules and this is a good example of seller rage over them but guarrantee who ever buys it knows what they are getting.


1847 United States Stamps "Horizontal Pair" - Forgery / Reprint / Illustration / Reproduction
Stamps Resemble RARE United States No.2 Washington - 10 Cents "X" Forgery Copy - Dark Paper
A Forgery of United States 1847 Horizontal Pair Stamps. Example has Vertical Crease and Creases on Edges.
The Reproduction or Forged Strip resembles a rare No.2 1847 United States Imperforated.
Counterfeit, Illustration, Reprint Copy or Local Forgery. Stamp color is Blotchy and Paper Looks dark, The
Back side Has no Gum (Hinged brown toned surface) . This is only half the description.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=370205254681

Im not advocating going to that length.
But selling/buying on ebay is a unique environment and while the buyer has his own responsibility, the seller has an ethical responsibility and ebay directives on how to sell these 'non-genuine stamps'

OOOPS I stuffed up....talk about a Freudian one
neither of those items contain the word facsimile.
Seriously that was accidental, but it does illistrate the fact that the same message/meaning can be given without that word.

Disclaimer-
Original official genuine intact facsimile items like the ANPEX sheet are different, and therefore treated differently.
(Untill they are broken up )

The US item does offer an alternative to 'facsimile', though: 'reproduction'. I could live with it, in place of facsimile.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

The reason is that they ARE NOT facsimiles they are forgeries and this is in itself confirmation of what we have been saying.

I collect forgeries (some that I can afford anyway) and there is NO WAY that I would deface them by printing anything on the back let alone the front.

Think about it - If you take a mint forgery and put fake on the back all a dishonest person has to do is soak it and the word is gone and the stamp can be sold without mention of forgery and a good piece of philatelic history has been spoiled in the process which in my opinion was also done when stamping the back in the first place.

Tony

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If no one else collects Heligoland or UPU how come I have to pay so much ?????

tonymacg
Reproduction - what a descriptive word.!

Trust you to pick that one.... .... love it!

(I can just see the little rabbits pouring out the photocopier. )



tonyevan1 - wondered if you would say that!!! Couldnt resist the passionate description, (U.S.A) even if it was a liability.

So tell me, why do you think the block of Penny Blacks are forgeries.. - that print on the back is done by laserprint (or whatever, same as doing double sided photocopying) and wouldnt wash off with the right ink and if it did, would stain anyway.?

I never mentioned the Penny Black Reproductions in any way shape or form - it must just be my misleading way of writing that is intended to rip off the gullible

I was in fact referring to the USA Stamps that have Forgery superimposed on the image.

If you laser print on GUM it does wash of - I have tried
Tony

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If no one else collects Heligoland or UPU how come I have to pay so much ?????

Purely in the interests of scientific research, of course ...

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Since I dont remember you being the pedantic english nazi I'll let you off with your misuse of pleurals and ies's.

Dont you just love that item description, probably should put the whole description up for posterity, since you already figured the forgery part!