Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

World's No#1 place to discuss STAMP COLLECTING and PHILATELY!
 

ZERO cost to ANYONE  -  NO annoying ads everywhere!

It is currently Fri May 24, 2013 02:03:30 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 386 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 16:30:00 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
I thought it was time to tackle a problem that scares many collectors away from the Uglies: the fakes, forgeries, reprints, imitations and so on that do turn up from time to time, from just about all the States. Now, in my most humble submission, they are not a reason to avoid the Uglies. Plenty of other countries suffer from the same problem :evil:

For the most part, I won't allow myself to be diverted into the interesting question of whether an item is strictly speaking a fake or forgery: this thread is for all those items that aren't unimpeachable. As we'll see as we work through the list, the Uglies offer just about every possible variation on the theme.

There is one group of forgeries that crops up most regularly these days, most often on eBay, and affects just about all the States: the modern colour photocopied variety. I'll deal with some of them, where I have examples, under the individual States, but by their nature, they share certain common characteristics.

They appear to have been scanned from catalogue illustrations, and then to have been copied to create sheets, which have then been printed out on what looks like a colour photocopier. (If you are offered a sheet of any Ugly which just happens to be A4 size, laugh airily and bin it. It's a forgery.)

Some of the things to look out for are:

- The nature of the printing: The forgeries tend to have a very lifeless look. If the genuine stamp was typeset or handstamped, the stamp should look typeset or handstamped.

If typeset, there will probably be indentations around the image; if handstamped, there will almost certainly be irregularities in the image - lighter and darker, and imperfectly printed parts. If the printed image is flat and uniform, be very wary.

- The paper: The forger has used rather cheap quality brownish-white wove for any stamps that were originally on 'white' papers. The coloured papers used by the forger usually bear no resemblance at all to the real thing: the colours are usually far too garish, while the originals tend to be on rather more subtly coloured papers.

- Spacing of the impressions: The impressions of the forgeries are usually widely spaced on the sheets, while the genuine stamps were usually (frugally) spaced close together. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule, but taken in conjunction with the other indicators, you should be able to pick the forgeries with confidence.

- 'Irrationality': Some of the forgeries are simply obviously wrong: wrong colour, wrong paper or howling rarities that are just not going to turn up on eBay at a starting bid of 99 cents.

Here is a prime example of the breed: SG O7 of Jammu & Kashmir - forgery on the left, genuine (used pair) on the right

Image

Notice the paper (absolutely typical; doesn't show up well on my screen, though), the flat, lifeless impression (absolutely typical), the impossible spacing of the impression (absolutely typical) - and why would anyone bother to fake a 15p stamp in the first place?

I've seen these modern efforts from most of the States, and they probably exist for all of them. However, there are fakes specific to each of the States, and those I'll start to work through now. Of course, this list can't ever be exhaustive, but hopefully I'll be able to alert you to some of the longstanding and more plentiful fakes.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 16:54:18 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
The India Study Circle (ISC) Handbook records five types of fakes of Alwar. All are of the first ¼ Anna stamp, and seem to be far rarer than the genuine article.

Three are so crude, my 7 month-old kitten would laugh herself into a fit over them. Two are slightly better, but still wouldn't stand up to comparison with the genuine item, or even the illustration in Gibbons. Here is an ISC Type F2, fake on the left, genuine on the right:

Image

Of all the various give-aways, note particularly the perforations instead of rouletting in the genuine and the shading of the dagger. If you have good eyesight and endless patience, there are also fewer 'scallops' around the oval in the fake than in the genuine item :D

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 17:33:23 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Bamra deserves an entry of its own, as it's rather more involved than Alwar.

In its brief life (1888-1895), Bamra issued two sets of stamps. The first, SG 1-6, is the greater problem. These were officially reprinted, and the reprints are by far and away more common than the genuine. If you find a stamp that appears to belong to this set, do not get your hopes up.

Here is a genuine SG 6, and a reprint on the right:

Image

As you can see, they look horribly similar. (The direction of the ribbon is no guide; they vary in the genuine.) The key is the fourth letter. In the genuine stamps, the loop has a little kick in the tail:

Image

In the reprints, there is no kick, and the tail curves in to the left:

Image

Don't let yourself be fooled by extraneous splashes of ink, like on this reprint.

If in doubt, the only certain test is to plate the stamp. The ISC Bamra Handbook has useful plates of the entire sheet; they show that the genuine SG 6 above is from row 2/7.

The second issue wasn't reprinted (although there were ten main settings, with several subsettings), but it has been forged. The Handbook identifies four types. Two are so crude, that once again, they won't stand comparison with the illustration in Gibbons, let alone a genuine stamp. One apparently is only found of the 1 Anna; it has a characteristic speckled appearance, and is on a much deeper and brighter yellow paper than the genuine stamps; it is probably quite scarce.

This leaves the last, and most common fakes. These, again, are pretty obvious - once you know what you're looking at. Amongst their other slip-ups, the forgers forgot to change the Oriya letters of value from the ¼ Anna stamp they copied, so that all values show the same Oriya inscription. Here is a genuine 1 Anna on the left and a fake on the right - compare the values below the central ornament:

Image

The size of the central ornament is necessarily a problem - they varied considerably between settings.

(The similarity of the typefaces between the genuine and fake raises the disagreeable possibility that someone with access to the Bamra printing works may have had a hand in these - assuming, rightly, that not a great many European collectors could read Oriya anyway.)

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 22:04:14 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:46:06 pm
Posts: 12155
Location: That's on a need to know basis - and YOU do not need to know!
tonymacg wrote:


Three are so crude, my 7 month-old kitten would laugh herself into a fit over them.


Image


It would have fooled me. ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 22:09:49 pm 
Offline
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 09:15:42 am
Posts: 624
Location: Bretagne, France
tonymacg wrote:
a problem that scares many collectors away from the Uglies


You're damn right.

Excellent idea Tony.
I have some uglies that were in big lots from India, and I always wonder if they were better than the usual forgeries found on ebay.

Matt


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 23:04:39 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
admin wrote:
tonymacg wrote:


Three are so crude, my 7 month-old kitten would laugh herself into a fit over them.


Image


It would have fooled me. ;)


Never did trust that man :evil:

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 23:05:40 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
maalgard wrote:
tonymacg wrote:
a problem that scares many collectors away from the Uglies


You're damn right.

Excellent idea Tony.
I have some uglies that were in big lots from India, and I always wonder if they were better than the usual forgeries found on ebay.

Matt


Matt, if you're still in doubt after I've been through the States, I'd be delighted offer an opinion on any scans you put up.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 01:13:32 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Barwani has some nasties. Around 20 years after the State Post Office closed in 1948, an Indian dealer acquired some of the plates, and proceeded to produce imitations of earlier issues from them. The imitations are nasty because they're genuine types; they're poor because, for the most part, the paper and perforations are all wrong. Here, though, is a rather better effort - an SG 10a, the 1 Anna imperf between (fake on the left, genuine on the right)

Image

The shade is not a reliable guide, because this issue exhibits a wide range of shades. However, the perforations are not quite right (too regular) and even more important is the moth-eaten state of the plate. SG 10 was the first 1 Anna issued by Barwani, and the plates were still in relatively good order. Even the primitive printing methods wouldn't have produced that effect on the stamps.

The plates were also used to produce 'proofs':

Image

Sad to say, these proofs were made rather a long time 'Before destruction' - but rather a long time after the last authorised printings. I'm sorry I can't provide better scans. These were provided by a correspondent who had unfortunately paid a rather large amount for them. Genuine proofs do exist, in the issued colours, of one or two values, but they are very rare.

Here is a example of a sheet of the last printing of the ¼ Anna Ranjitsingh (from Setting 9)

Image

and the last settings of the ¼ and ½ Devi Singh (from Settings 9 and 6 respectively)

Image

Any Barwani stamp showing further deterioration of the plate than these is a reprint.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 06:47:03 am 
Offline
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:00:19 am
Posts: 1826
Location: New York, NY
Your high-resolution images of genuine examples, here and on other posts, make all the difference.

Here are some Alwar forgeries - all imperforate - for your kitten's enjoyment. They all seem to be rough impressions and denominated 1 anna. The forger or forgers were too lazy to perforate the stamps or at least change the denominations.

The first is on a whiter paper than the other two.
The second is the wrong color. I seems to be a clearer impression that the other two.
The third is another wrong color.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 07:17:54 am 
Offline
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:00:19 am
Posts: 1826
Location: New York, NY
Here are some forgeries of the first issue of Bamra. These are supposed to be ¼-anna, 1 anna, 2 annas, 4 annas and 8 annas if I am reading them correctly. The 2 anna is on blue paper for a nice change.

Image

Image

They seem to be too rough to be reprints. Is the kitten still laughing? The fourth character of the denomination looks different from the genuine or the reprint.

Image


Last edited by maptrekker on Sun Aug 16, 2009 07:57:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 07:56:31 am 
Offline
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:00:19 am
Posts: 1826
Location: New York, NY
Here is a forgery of the second issue of Bamra. The English says half anna but the Oriya inscription says otherwise. The forger chose a denomination in Oriya different than the the 1/4-anna on your forgery illustration.

Image

Then there are these. The same unknown denomination in Oriya but with a space between the 's' and 't' in postage.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:52:28 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Maptrekker, thanks for posting these up. I usually just throw these things out when I come across them, so I have very few to show myself.

Most of the examples you've shown are obviously of these modern photocopier fakes. The look, particularly of the Alwar examples is completely typical. Now you've seen these ones, you'll easily detect the fakes of other States from the same atelier. I should add that the shiny coloured fibres that you can see in some of the coloured papers are also typical of the forgeries: they don't appear in any of the genuine coloured papers used by any of the States.

I particularly like the fact that the forger seems to have selected a forgery of the Bamra to forge. It shows the level of intelligence at work here! And, yes, I've had to hose down the kitten to stop her. I was afraid she might laugh herself into a heart attack :lol:

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:55:38 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Things get a little more complicated :D with Bhopal. There are the photocopier fakes of course; then, there are various official reprints, remainders and imitations, some of which may have actually done postal service, and finally there are the common or garden type fakes of the surcharges of the later years of Bhopal.

Leaving aside the photocopier fakes (see Maptrekker's scans above for a general idea of what they'd look like), we come down to the reprints and imitations. The first thing to look for is the central embossing. Only Gibbons T19 - the second example below - should have circular embossing. Genuine older types should have the octagonal embossing shown in the first example:

Image

Any of the 'hollow centre' designs with circular embossing is a reprint, remainder or imitation. (The circular embossing is the cypher of the new ruler, Nawab Sultan Jahan Begam, who came to the throne in 1901.) Here is an example of a reprint/remainder of SG 38, with the new circular embossing:

Image

Next, I'll deal briefly with the post-1908 era, which is fairly straightforward.

In my limited experience, the reprints/remainders are less common than the imitations. If you find a stamp looking somewhat like an earlier issue, and with an indeterminate or circular embossing, it belongs among these imitations. There are far too many to show them all here, but here are a few representative specimens:

Image

The ISC Bhopal Handbook lists these. Gibbons also once listed them: they're listed and priced in my 1941 Part 1. (Interestingly, many are priced higher than the genuine stamps.)

It is said that some of these reprints/remainders/imitations may actually have been genuinely used. If anyone has a possible candidate, I'd be most interested to see it - please post it up here!

Finally, there are a few, rare, classic era forgeries. Here is one of SG 48, something of a rarity, which was described in a 1903 Philatelic Journal of India article as 'too well perforated to pass muster'. You can see why :D

Image

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 13:09:26 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
It may come as a relief to some to know that all that weird stuff ended in Bhopal in 1908. The Service issues are fairly straightforward.

First, a warning. Gibbons lists these, and other errors from the 1908-11 printings:

Image

They're generally accepted to be printer's waste - slipped out the back door of Perkins, Bacon. Buy them if you like, but bear their true status in mind.

The 1935-36 surcharges have been forged. Obviously, you wouldn't buy a rarity of these without a certificate, preferably a recent one from the BPA. Here are the two genuine types of the ¼ Anna surcharge.

Image

Gibbons notes, but unfortunately doesn't illustrate, the variant form of the ¼ A. surcharge on the 4 Anna brown, SG O323; the type above is genuine!

There are also forgeries of the 'normal' type of ¼ A. surcharge. If in doubt, compare particularly the figure '1' with the example above (on SG O320).

Finally, there are also forgeries of the last stamp of Bhopal, SG O357 of 1949. I can't show one, but this is genuine, and has a certificate:

Image

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 02:42:07 am 
Offline
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:00:19 am
Posts: 1826
Location: New York, NY
Do forgeries exist with octagonal embossing?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:18:10 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
maptrekker wrote:
Do forgeries exist with octagonal embossing?


I haven't heard of any - but that doesn't mean they don't exist, of course.

If you have a doubtful item with octagonal embossing, the first thing to do is make sure it is the octagonal embossing. The best test is to find a straight edge of the octagon. If it's still uncertain, it's probably a poor strike of the circular embossing on one of the official imitations.

It also has to be remembered that, as each position on the stone was drawn by hand individually, there are not-so-subtle differences between positions on the sheet of any given SG number.

If those tests fail, do please post a good scan here. It would be very interesting to see it!

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:51:32 am 
Offline
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 14:17:08 pm
Posts: 2422
Location: Melbourne, Australia
maptrekker wrote:
Do forgeries exist with octagonal embossing?


Mind you if you contacted India, I am sure someone would produce them for us. :roll: :roll:

_________________
AUSTRALIA 2013 EXHIBITION - 10 to 15 MAY 2013 - http://www.australia2013.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:11:37 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Poor Bhor! It has suffered considerably from the attentions of the forgers.

Here is an attempt at SG 1 which might fool the unwary:

Image

The fake is on the left: notice the 'printed' rather flat appearance of the impression. Compare it with the genuine, handstamped impression on the right.

And here are two quite pathetic attempts at an SG 2, with the genuine stamp at left:

Image

Compare the lettering in the fakes: it's all wrong. (If someone, and mark you, I name no names, has been busy with a half potato and a red ink pad, he (or she) must try harder!) The second fake has a faked cancellation as well.

Finally, we come to SG 3. There is some debate about whether this stamp was issued during the life of the Bhor Post Office anyway. Leaving that aside, I have seen what may be rather good fakes of this stamp, but the cancellation on the stamp at left is definitely a fake. The proper cancellations of SG 3 are the vanity cancels, leaving the ruler's head clear, as in the example at right:

Image


I haven't seen any forgeries of Bijawar, but then, I haven't been looking either. It's perfectly possible the photocopier forger has worked on these too. This is what the genuine perf and rouletted stamps should look like:

Image

Of course, to my prejudiced mind, the whole status of Bijawar is questionable anyway. I rather doubt that it was a legitimate, functioning post office, but that's another story.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:12:28 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
GJ50 wrote:
maptrekker wrote:
Do forgeries exist with octagonal embossing?


Mind you if you contacted India, I am sure someone would produce them for us. :roll: :roll:


Gary, I hope I haven't put thoughts into anyone's head :D

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:31:15 pm 
Offline
Suspended Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:13:10 am
Posts: 1642
Location: Up Banned Creek, Australia
Tony - were the hand-stamped issues made with rubber - wood or metal stamps?????

Tony

_________________
If no one else collects Heligoland or UPU how come I have to pay so much ?????


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:48:26 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Tony, I don't know. My guess from looking at them would be metal, or possibly wood. It may be reported somewhere in the classic literature from the turn of the century, since there was reasonable interest in Bhor, and it was about the closest of the Uglies to Bombay. Must try and find out!

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:52:58 pm 
Offline
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 14:17:08 pm
Posts: 2422
Location: Melbourne, Australia
tonymacg wrote:
GJ50 wrote:
maptrekker wrote:
Do forgeries exist with octagonal embossing?


Mind you if you contacted India, I am sure someone would produce them for us. :roll: :roll:


Gary, I hope I haven't put thoughts into anyone's head :D


Tony, in 2000 I was in Calcutta and in the street there guys selling stamps and stationery, ie misprints, misperfs etc. One guy was selling a mis cut areagramme. My mate bought it and I said it was shame he didn't have anymore. He opened his bag and pulled out a full block of 4 uncut areogrames and promptly cut it up into 4 [ all cut wrongly ]. We just walked away in disbelief.......

_________________
AUSTRALIA 2013 EXHIBITION - 10 to 15 MAY 2013 - http://www.australia2013.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 13:43:02 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 13:59:53 pm
Posts: 39391
Location: Klang, Selangor, Malaysia
Tony,

I'll be following this thread closely. Thanks for starting it.

Cheers

Andrew


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 14:00:17 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
GJ50 wrote:
Tony, in 2000 I was in Calcutta and in the street there guys selling stamps and stationery, ie misprints, misperfs etc. One guy was selling a mis cut areagramme. My mate bought it and I said it was shame he didn't have anymore. He opened his bag and pulled out a full block of 4 uncut areogrames and promptly cut it up into 4 [ all cut wrongly ]. We just walked away in disbelief.......


As long as they don't do it to Barwani, Gary - or Aden, for that matter :D

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 14:02:32 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
crosscrescent wrote:
Tony,

I'll be following this thread closely. Thanks for starting it.

Cheers

Andrew


Andrew, if this thread saves some others from some of the humiliating mistakes I've made in my collecting career, I'll be well content.

Tony

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 14:09:36 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 13:59:53 pm
Posts: 39391
Location: Klang, Selangor, Malaysia
Tony,

It sure does.
Am having trouble trying to figure out those Barwani stamps (type of paper itself kills me - being rather illiterate on these matters)....hehehe.


Cheers
Andrew


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 14:58:30 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:01:46 pm
Posts: 16142
Location: Croydon, Victoria
I feel in my water, another stamp poster of the month ....coming on.

Well done Tony.
No I haven't defected to the DARK side...............yet.

_________________
Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 15:14:02 pm 
Offline
I was online for post number ONE MILLION!
I was online for post number ONE MILLION!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 14:00:32 pm
Posts: 13674
Location: Melbourne
Of course, just to state the obvious, you don't find many forgeries of Kangaroo and George V Sideface issues for Australia. Primarily because of the quality of printing and design, of course. Those forgeries that DO exist (2 that I am aware of, 1 by Sperait and one contempory forgery of 2d George V, to defraud teh post office) are worth a considerable premium on the genuine article.

Just goes to show that 'real' stamps rule, yet again! :)

We will NOT, however, talk about early States issues which were forged but which are (mostly) dreadful and immediately obvious. Nor will we talk about forged overprints and official perfins (though, luckily, most of these are relatively easy to spot, if you know what to look for)! :twisted:

However, to leave this post on a happy note, I commend you for your attempt to save the unwary and ill-informed from disaster (even if they have gone over to the dark side). :mrgreen:

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 15:14:48 pm 
Offline
I was online for post number ONE MILLION!
I was online for post number ONE MILLION!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 14:00:32 pm
Posts: 13674
Location: Melbourne
waroff49 wrote:
I feel in my water, another stamp poster of the month ....coming on.

Well done Tony.
No I haven't defected to the DARK side...............yet.


BILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 18:37:15 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
I hope I am not divulging any, ahem, dark secrets, but today I received the $10 membership fee to join the Dark Side from Stampboards Member Sherro. He now has two Uglies, at least, residing in his collection.

Now Waroff49, can I interest you in some nice recess printed definitives of Hyderabad? Plates engraved by Perkins, Bacon who - if memory serves - had some involvement with certain Australian definitives ... Lots of plate and shade interest, too ...

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 07:27:08 am 
Offline
I was online for post number ONE MILLION!
I was online for post number ONE MILLION!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 14:00:32 pm
Posts: 13674
Location: Melbourne
tonymacg wrote:
I hope I am not divulging any, ahem, dark secrets, but today I received the $10 membership fee to join the Dark Side from Stampboards Member Sherro. He now has two Uglies, at least, residing in his collection.

Now Waroff49, can I interest you in some nice recess printed definitives of Hyderabad? Plates engraved by Perkins, Bacon who - if memory serves - had some involvement with certain Australian definitives ... Lots of plate and shade interest, too ...


Sherro??? How COULD you??? I...I....words...words fail me! A serious collector caught up in this madness, his soul exposed to the grim reaper!

Oh, verily I say unto you Mr. Ugly Man...verily do you serve your true master on the dark side! :twisted:

I don't feel very well, I think I need a bex and a good lie down.....Sherro? Who'd have thought HE could be corrupted?? Woe....woe.....woe

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 08:09:23 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 15:38:22 pm
Posts: 6851
Location: The Windy City- Chicago
tonymacg wrote:
He now has two Uglies, at least, residing in his collection.


I have about 2, too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:15:17 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
jugoslavija_post wrote:
tonymacg wrote:
He now has two Uglies, at least, residing in his collection.


I have about 2, too.


Aha! I see our North American Chapter has been busy, too. Well, done chaps! Keep up the good work!

Now, Peter, one day you will wake up in the morning and find a lovely,fresh MUH copy of Alwar SG 1 nestling on the pillow beside you, and you will know ...

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:29:29 am 
Offline
I was online for post number ONE MILLION!
I was online for post number ONE MILLION!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 14:00:32 pm
Posts: 13674
Location: Melbourne
tonymacg wrote:
jugoslavija_post wrote:
tonymacg wrote:
He now has two Uglies, at least, residing in his collection.


I have about 2, too.


Aha! I see our North American Chapter has been busy, too. Well, done chaps! Keep up the good work!

Now, Peter, one day you will wake up in the morning and find a lovely,fresh MUH copy of Alwar SG 1 nestling on the pillow beside you, and you will know ...


It will not happen, Tony! I am too strong for your blandishments, which will come to naught! :wink:

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:27:43 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
While it may only serve to confirm the worst fears of the diehard anti-Ugly platoon, I was reminded by the fake cancellation on the Bhor item above that fake cancellations have been reported recently from Bhopal. These generally seem to be once-off attempts to spice up an unused stamp, rather than an organized racket. As this makes it a bit harder to describe the fakes, I thought it would help if I show examples of the sorts of genuine cancellations found on Bhopal.

Image

and

Image

Note that the earliest issues were cancelled in manuscript.

Fake cancellations are only likely to be a problem in the pre-1908 issues. It would be hard to find a later issue worth more used than mint - although mint copies of the 1935-6 surcharges do seem to be particularly prone to gum problems. Used copies of these surcharges might be worth scrutinising rather closely.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 13:21:53 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:01:46 pm
Posts: 16142
Location: Croydon, Victoria
I, like PeterS, find it abhorrent that Sherro should join the dark side. That doesn't however detract from Tony's attempt to inform the world of fakery in the Indian sub-continent. However, fakes and forgeries are not restricted to this area of the globe.

_________________
Waroff49

The last chapter of the Never_Ending Story is being written.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 13:51:29 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
waroff49 wrote:
I, like PeterS, find it abhorrent that Sherro should join the dark side. That doesn't however detract from Tony's attempt to inform the world of fakery in the Indian sub-continent. However, fakes and forgeries are not restricted to this area of the globe.


Sadly, not. My great concern is that collectors will, fairly enough, hear of the reputation of the Uglies for fakes and so on, and shy away from them. Luckily, most of the dud Uglies that collectors are likely to come across, in the ordinary cut and thrust of collecting, frankly stink. They're pretty obvious once you know what the real thing should look like.

It's probably rather a question of the nature of the fakery going on among the Uglies, than the volume. I'm sure there is some re-perforating and re-gumming going on, but it's nothing like the level it occurs at in other 'countries'. On the other hand, I'd guess Australia, say, isn't as plagued by villains with colour photocopiers, or postal administrations happy to sell off remainders 40 years after the postal service closed down. It's just a question of knowing what to be wary of, rather than a question of being able to take stamps at (if you'll excuse the expression) face value.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 15:31:37 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
It doesn't necessarily follow that popularity means larger numbers of fakes among the Uglies, but Bundi is popular, and it is well-served with fakes.

The photocopier forger has been busy in Bundi, on all three periods, the Daggers, the Sacred Cows and the last issues. I've seen sheets of Daggers which can be tricky as singles:

Image

Fake SG 11 at left and genuine SG 11a at right: the colour of the fake is acceptable, but the paper gives it away. The genuine stamp is on laid paper - the fake is on the usual, cheap and nasty wove. The fake is also missing the frame lines between stamps.

Multiples of the fakes of the Daggers are easier to pick, because the fakes are much more widely spaced that the genuine. This is how a block of SG 12 should look

Image

There are wide open spaces between the impressions of the fakes.

There are several types of fakes of the Sacred Cows. One type is more dangerous, and fortunately, scarcer than most of the genuine types. It appeared from India at about the same time as the genuine stamps, and some of the fakes were included in supplies sent from Bundi to dealers. I can't show them, but the size of the stamps is not quite right. Comparison with the genuine item should show up the fakes. Remember, though, that the four clichés of the plate suffered progressive damage, so that the presence or absence of particular flaws is no guarantee that a stamp is genuine or a fake, in isolation. You'll need to compare it with an example known to be from the same or a nearby setting.

The overprints have also been faked. Here is an example of the Small British overprint on a very dubious-looking stamp as well:

Image

Incidentally, don't be talked into paying a premium for overprint errors of the Cows. Inverted, sideways, part missing and so on errors are common. The post office clerks were always happy to oblige the sahibs.

One more thing to beware of in the Cows is cleaned fiscal cancellations. Certain stamps are much more common fiscally used than postally - this is particularly true of some of the 1 Anna stamps. In fact, as 1 Anna stamps were the value most frequently used for fiscal purposes, check any expensive 1 Anna for signs of cleaning. This is a typical fiscal usage:

Image

This is SG 39 - cleaned of its fiscal cancel, a £28 item. (For Cows lovers, it's from Setting 43)

And one final warning about the Cows. This pair is perfectly genuine, although fiscally used:

Image

It's SG 20a, and actually quite a common stamp. The rough printing and shoddy paper are characteristic of the stamp.

The photocopy fakes of the Arms and last definitives are obvious enough not to require further comment.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 16:08:10 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Bussahir has also suffered the attentions of the photocopier forger, but a far, far greater problem with Bussahir is the deluge of remainders, reprints and imitations that the State produced, and that were still being sold to dealers 40 years after the State PO closed down. There are probably 20 or 30 of these to each 'proper' Bussahir stamp out there. (Did I hear someone mention Heligoland?)

The imitations are easiest to pick. If a Bussahir stamp doesn't match in colour, design, paper and perforation with a listed genuine stamp, then it's certain to be an imitation. They were produced in 'new' colours, perf or imperf, and on 'wrong' papers, to satisfy dealer demand. Here's an example; the 'original' stamp is in shades of vermilion to brown-red.

Image

Two things give the remainders away. One is the monogram, that was supposed to be impressed on all Bussahir stamps before sale. This is the correct monogram (on SG 11, if anyone's interested):

Image

This monogram became increasingly worn as time went on. By the end of Bussahir's philatelic life, it was often not much more than a blur.

The two most common monograms on the reprints are these:

Image

They are never found on the properly issued stamps. The 1 Anna imitation above shows another, rather less common, reprint monogram.

Finally, there are the remainders. These had original or reprint monograms and were cancelled 19 MA 1900

Image

Don't be misled by, or lured into paying any sort of premium for, used Bussahir tied to small piece like this. There seems to have been a sizable cottage industry turning them out. Covers of Bussahir are another matter. If you have the three to four figure pounds sum to buy one, you will of course insist on a clear certificate.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 17:43:23 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Most of the fakes of Charkhari are an insult to the intelligence. They're pathetic. They won't fool a collector, who has copies of the real thing, for a moment. Of course, the general Commonwealth or All World collector isn't likely to have such things ready to hand, and plenty of eBay vendors have been stuck with fakes of Charkhari, trying desperately (and unsuccessfully) to unload them onto some other sucker.

The first types (SG T1) make an excellent starting point. Compare the fake ¼ Anna and 2 Anna at left with the genuine stamps at right. The lettering etc is all wrong, and so is the quality of the impression. (As usual with the Uglies, shades are not a very reliable guide. They can vary rather widely.) The 1942 CDS on the fakes is also a bit of a give-away. This design was replaced in 1909 :D

Image

The same problems recur with the second type. Once again, the design is wrong, and the impression just doesn't look as if it was made with a handstamp and a violet ink pad.

Image

We reach rock bottom with the long Postage & Revenues, SG T5. The forger couldn't even spell 'POSTAGE' correctly :D

Image

Here is a block of the perforated genuine type. This shows the typical spacing between the stamps, which rather differs from the fake in that respect.

Image

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 18:12:54 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
The fourth types (SG T6) are better, in some ways. The printing is still too good, but the colours and designs are fairly close to the originals - except in the case of the 1 Pice blue. As Gibbons notes, in this issue, the left hand sword blade passes over the right. This is the reverse of the second types. Here, the forger got lazy and recycled the design of the first type, in the colour of the second. (Again, fakes on the left, genuine on the right)

Image

And here is an example of a completely faked cover, using the fake stamps

Image

Amongst its other failings, the postage rate is wrong also. The rate for a registered letter in Charkhari at the time was 2½ Annas, not 3 Annas. Altogether a rather sloppy effort.

As far as I know, the 1931 Pictorial set has never been faked, but there are forgeries of the last surcharge set, SG 54-56. Here are examples of the genuine surcharges:

Image

SG 54

Image

SG 55 (including the unlisted comma for full stop error), and

Image

SG 56

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 07:42:27 am 
Offline
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:00:19 am
Posts: 1826
Location: New York, NY
I have a few Charkhari with the 29 MAR 1942 postmark including the misspelled long Revenue & Postage issue. I just assumed it was a busy day at the Princely Post Office.

Examining my two postmarked 1 anna forgeries, I notice that they have noticeable differences. I guess this is because the forger had to make multiple impressions on a sheet - after all 1942 was way before the era of the color copier.

I noticed that you said of the forgery that "the impression just doesn't look as if it was made with a handstamp and a violet ink pad." Does this mean it was a single impression impressed multiple times on the sheet? And therefore, all the genuine stamps should look the same taking into consideration differences in applied pressure and inking?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 07:56:02 am 
Offline
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
RED Shooting Star Posting MANIAC!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:00:19 am
Posts: 1826
Location: New York, NY
Wow, I just noticed that the Charkhari SG T6 uses the Merchant's Notation that you kindly explained to me in another posting.

See, I pay attention. It just takes time to sink in.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:30:00 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Maptrekker, I'm absolutely delighted to discover that anyone has been paying attention!

As to the long type Postage & Revenues, yes: there was a single impression struck multiple times to create the sheet. I'm not at all sure that the 1942 CDS dates from 1942. It does appear that the postmarkers from several States may have fallen into the wrong hands and are being used to 'improve' some of these fakes, including this one of Charkhari.

Of course, late usages aren't unknown from the Indian States. They're found particularly when the State's stamps were being printed elsewhere by contract printers, and temporary shortages of contemporary stamps developed. But 20 years is a bit of a stretch, and even more of a stretch is the same date on a stamp issued 40 years before!

Charkhari did resort to emergency measures occasionally, of course. Manuscript surcharges, some of them increasing the face value, are known on the 1909-19 set. They aren't listed by Gibbons because their status still isn't entirely clear.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 00:42:05 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
These fine specimens of photocopier art from Bundi have just appeared on eBay

Image

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 0373486215

Yours for only $US40 ...

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 01:24:42 am 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
I apologise to all for being a bit slow to take this thread up again - the irresistible charms of the new Gibbons Part 1 led me astray :D

Cochin has a few traps.

As far as I know, the photocopier forger has only attacked the early types of Cochin, and I've only seen them imperf. These are what the genuine stamps should look like:

Image

I should sound a few warning notes here. Do not be suckered (as I was :oops: ) into paying fancy prices for the small 1 Puttan in violet. As Gibbons says, it's a fiscal.

The large One Puttan was essentially a postal-fiscal: don't pay fancy prices for cleaned copies, either 'mint' or with cancellations. This is a sample of the genuine cancellations of the era (on a cover with SG 16):

Image

There is also a small double-ring CDS from this time.

In the later issues of Cochin, there are two things to watch out for: cleaned fiscals and forged cancellations.

Some of the wartime surcharges are much rarer used than mint - forged cancellations are an all too common problem among the Uglies, and they occur in Cochin, too. The letter + number killer type cancellations like the one on the cover above were used right through to the end, but a 'used' copy of, say SG 77 showing only one or two nondescript cancellation bars should be considered pretty doubtful.

Also treat all 1 Anna stamps after SG 57/SG O52 with caution. They were only used, occasionally, as make-up values for postage, but they were widely used as fiscals. Beware of cleaned fiscal cancellations! I've seen some rather dangerous CDSs of Trichur on cleaned fiscally used copies of SG 90/90a. If in doubt, beg, borrow or steal a copy of G.B. Pai's Cochin Postmarks and Cancellations, get a BPA certificate, or as a last and pretty shaky resort, post a scan here.

You do sometimes see (probably) naive eBay sellers offering fiscal 1 Anna stamps as postage stamps. All 1 Anna postage stamps included the word 'Anchal' in the design. If a 1 Anna stamp doesn't include the word Anchal, it's a fiscal.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 14:03:48 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Despite its philatelically short life, Dhar has attracted a lot of unwelcome attention.

The usual photocopier forgeries exist of the first, typeset, issue. Once again, they look very like the catalogue illustrations, but nothing like the real thing. This is a real SG 3:

Image

There have also been some rather feeble attempts to imitate the typesets:

Image

The colour of the paper is the yellow of the 2 Anna, but the value is 'Half Anna'. The imitation of the monogram, that was supposed to be applied to all Dhar typesets before issue, is simply pathetic.

In this one,

Image

the forgers have at least got the paper colour right, but the lettering looks nothing like the original, and they've fudged the monogram.

And speaking of monograms, there are some quite expensive missing monogram errors listed in Gibbons. Beware this sort of thing:

Image

The underlying stamp is genuine, and for a long time I rather doubtfully hoped it might be a genuine missing monogram, SG 3a (now at £275). Then the penny (or anna?) dropped, and I realized that the CDS was a fake, applied over the area from which the monogram had been removed.

Also be aware that the colours of these coloured papers are inclined to fade or discolour, with a little help. This can produce anomalous stamps, which are worth precisely ... nothing.

The typesets are probably a bit too inviting to the forgers!

Before leaving Dhar, these 'proofs' of the stamps and postal stationery dies

Image

are genuine as far as they go, but were made some time in the 1950s, 50 years after the Dhar Post Office had closed. They turn up for sale from time to time.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 18:45:35 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Early Duttia has been extensively forged. Noone in their right mind would spend the four- or five-figure sum in pounds to buy one of these without a certificate, unless it was from me of course :D , but here are some examples of the sort of thing that turns up occasionally on eBay from dreamers who've found the stamps in batches of rubbish:

Image

The next two issues are worst for forgeries. Numbers of them have been reported, but all differ from the genuine types in ways that give them away: they're too small, the lettering is different, the figure of Ganesh in the centre is wrong, or the appearance of the blue control mark is wrong (in design or colour or both). These are the genuine Type 2s, inscribed 'DUTTIA'. (Note that there are two types of the Ganesh.)

Image

SG 10 - Ganesh Type I

Image

SG 9ca - Ganesh Type II

The positions of the letters and frame lines are not diagnostic in these stamps. There were a number of settings, and letters and frame lines shifted around. However, the shapes of the letters are diagnostic for the genuine types.

This is the genuine Type 4, inscribed 'DATIA'

Image

SG 15

Note that there is only one type of the Ganesh figure in the DATIA stamps.

Here is a really very silly attempt at a forgery of SG 12 or 14:

Image

It's inscribed in Devanagari 'Half Anna', as for SG 12, but the paper is in the colour of the 2 Anna SG 14. The lettering is wrong, and the control mark is wrong and in the wrong shade of blue.

I haven't come across any forgeries of the later issues, which isn't at all to say that they don't exist. Comparisons with genuine types should make all clear.

Two further points to make about Duttia. As used are almost always more highly priced than mint, beware of faked cancellations. This is a genuine Duttia CDS

Image

as a favour cancel on SG 16. Note the spelling 'DUTTIAH'. I've also seen killers with D in a circle of bars, but I'm not sure of their status.

Another trap for the unwary is the missing controls. These are also highly priced, and should of course be checked for signs of cleaning - and also for the paper. The postal stationery envelopes were issued with the control mark struck below the stamp impression

Image

but the paper is a thickish toned laid bâtonné, which was never used for printing the stamps.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 17:22:26 pm 
Offline
GOLD Shooting Star Stampboards LEGEND!
GOLD Shooting Star Stampboards LEGEND!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 03:15:22 am
Posts: 7703
Location: Columbus, Ohio. USA
Here are 3 Charkhari I pulled out of an old album. They all
seem to have hefty catalog values in Scott; I am wondering
if the imperf stamp is a postal stationery cut-out. Please
take a look and comment:

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 17:54:57 pm 
Offline
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
I was online for our Birthday Number 5!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 23:36:30 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: Melbourne
Doug, I'm afraid they're all bad. The first has the misspelling 'POSTASE' which gives it away immediately. The others have the wrong spacing and the same dodgy CDSs as the first stamp. Someone has been salting the album.

Sorry!

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 386 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], EarlyBird, gugusg, ivqii, Namaste, quicksingle and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


A powerful Google Custom Search Engine for JUST This Site

 

 

Loading
 
          

Click For Our Newest Issues

Click for our Current Auction

Internet Auctions-Buy & Sell Stamps

Melbourne 2013 - May 10-15

        

 
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.373s | 18 Queries | GZIP : On ]