Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

Nothing implausible about my suggestion. I understand that was exactly the position in Saudi Arabia in the 1960s which is why the multitude of different (but similar) definitive series stamps are so difficult to find mint, whilst they appear in all sorts of combinations of series on cover.

_________________
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

I completely agree with PeterS (for once)

But perhaps we're getting hung up on semantics here. Insofar as the cover was probably sent to perform a commercial service, it is 'commercial' in the generally-accepted meaning of the word. However, philatelists would use a narrower definition of 'Commercial', to mean free of philatelic considerations - what I call 'contrivance' - and by that definition, a cut-down 30c Cook from a miniature sheet is highly unlikely to be philatelically commercial. When the cover has been sent be a stamp dealer, the odds against its being commercial must be astronomical.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

My 2p worth...

Any miniature sheet is never going to be used in a strictly commercial way, because a Post Office clerk isn't going to stick one on a letter unless specifically requested to do so! The best you can hope for is what I would call postal use, where the item goes through the normal post and is postmarked with an operational canceller, as opposed to an FDC which was never actually mailed. Similar considerations apply to stamps taken from miniature sheets.

However, I have seen a few UK "smilers" stamps used "commercially", where someone has ordered a Christmas sheet with photo of their choice and used the individual stamp + photo to send a greetings card. Perhaps a board member might have a scan to illustrate this?

Phil

It's no good, try as I might I just can't find the flaw in my logic! Yet, it must be there! The Ugly One never agrees with me, on principle!

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Roughly placed stamps, with a roller cancel, in the correct time period of legal use of the old 1d stamps as 1c stamps?

And 100% correct useage period for the 3c coil, making up legally the fairly new 5c rate from October 1, So this is 2 months after that, so on Nov 30, is not a contrived 'new rate" cover for some reason. And is BNE-SYD, and not local as many philatelic things are.

If they were 2 x 1d brown QE2 you would not even think twice on it.

Oh come now, Peter. I've agreed with you completely once, and sort of once, already this morning

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Agreed, but it isn't a pair of 1d Brown QEIIs, is it?

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

I guess it would not be too sweeping to say that any letter sent from nations that depend on printing stamps for income [Is that all nations??], or just those whose stamps are always big, topical and pretty, or even just chosen to go on the envelope because they are pretty [or the subject appeals or personally interesting] is philatelic.

Any recent cover from Pitcairn must be philatelic. However if they had a plain definitive that had been unchanged for 30 years it would then be commercial!

Then there is the other way of defining. Consider 2 collectors: If #1 has the cover and #2 doesn't then #2 will swear it is philatelic while if #1 does not have the cover and #2 does then #2 will state with authority that it is commercial. For those cynical in our midst imagine the effect if one of the two collectors is a judge.

In the last 50 or so years a cover is a cover!!
Who cares if it is philatelic.
[Only one of the judges mentioned above]

Tony

Peter,

I have an example of exactly what I described. It even has the bill in it. I will find it at some stage and post it. Its from a stamp dealer in Australia sending an order to a German collector. The collector ordered Cook stamps. The dealer cut a 30 cent imperforate out of the minisheet and used it for the correct 30 cent charge for airmail to zone 5. Right rate, stamp used in the correct time. Commercial I recon. What if the dealer used a normal 30 cent Cook? Commercial or Philatelic? What if they used 30 1 cent queens?

I dont see how the sender or the receiver can determine that its philatelic. If I mail something to you and use a nice commemorative rather than a definative that is current and paying the correct rate does not change the fact that its commercial. I may have chosen a nicer stamp because I know you collect but its still commercial. That stamp was available to be used at that time for that purpose. Must be commercial.

Tim

Tim, I am not questioning what you say. However, the dealer would appear to have made a conscious decision to create a special for the collector by cutting up a miniature sheet just to give him something unusual for his collection.

If he had used a normal 30c Cook then I would probably agree with you.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Huh?

What if someone there (there are about 60 residents IIRC) actually wrote a letter to a friend etc, or mailed a xmas card, or signed something formal and mailed it to a bank or a lawyer etc as often required by law, and mailed it from one of the ships that pass by?

How is that philatelic? They have definitive stamps.

As I said Glen. If they used a definitive which is usually not a large 'topical' or commemorative stamp then great but if they even hesitated and thought about using a 'pretty' one then too many 'old time' collectors, judges or those who don't have similar material would look down their noses and call it philatelic. Any currently legal stamp in its correct date period, with a near correct rate should be regarded as a collectable cover and not downgraded in any way.

In this way FDCs are just that, while a cover on first day without the whole set could be deemed more collectable by the above group.

Guess I'm just getting cynical of the process

Tony

Very sweeping statement.

Addressed to Passport Office Wellington, or Bank Of NZ Auckland etc with commems to correct rate, or "Win a Toyota Landcruiser Competition" at a newspaper or magazine etc, there is no doubt in anyone's mind, all are commerical use!

_________________
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

I guess so. Perhaps a few 'Readers Digest' stickers could be handy to add to any mail.

From QE2 to more recent times a cover is just that 'A cover'

I must have offended a lot by now so will stop.

Tony

Tony - nobody gets offended here or we'd never have got to many 100s of posts .. go back and read earlier exchanges ... we are still all expressing views here!

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8613&start=250

Glen

Ummm What if they used a big pretty one to promote tourism as they have been promoted to do?

NOTHING philatelic about that.

Tony

_________________
If no one else collects Heligoland or UPU how come I have to pay so much ?????

After the furore in February over the Robert Burns commemoration which resulted not in a stamp or set thereof but a miniature sheet the impression I got was that a number of people of the Scottish persuasion nonetheless bought the MS so that they could use the Burns stamp on their correspondence. What they did with the remainder (including higher values) is anybody's guess but I suggest that they either saved them for their Christmas parcels or they sold them to small businesses that could use them.



It would, indeed, be surprising if the Smilers personalised stamps were not used commercially as that is the whole purpose of them and they are very popular, according to Royal Mail. An examination of the eBay listings show postally used smilers singles to be a mix of both generic and personalised. Of course when a stamp collector who is interested in steam locomotives uses his personalised smilers to send to other collectors of steam locomotives.....



Here is one used by a postcard publisher on her mail shots:


One which is not a proper stamp but a life-sized self-adhesive cut-out from the retail booklet advertising the service:


And a pair from Japan:

_________________
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Folks,

I did not mean to start this debate again but I must admit I enjoy it and agree with Glen everyone is allowed an opinion. Nothing is personal about that. To address Peters concern I guess I dont care if the motivation of the sender (which is nearly impossibe to tell anyway).

That has nothing to do with commercial or philatelic. If the stamp was available to be used at that time for that rate and is used as such its commercial. Intent has nothing to do with it. Right rate, right timeframe = commercial.

Tim

Ian - nice scans. Thank you!

Phil

How about this one? May be philatelic but can't imagine how?

Was pricing it up today at $50 as a nice Ford Motor advertising cover (which are very sought after) and which allegedly has the "large holes" special perforation (ACSC 182bh $150 a pair if they are), and the thought occurred to me WHY did it have 5d postage????

Very roughly opened so not obviously philatelic. Nothing on back. Sent mid WW2. Carelessly cancelled at Hay, and cancelled in 1941, so years from issue date.

Why 5d?

May have been double weight I guess (but recall mail went up from 2d to 2½d in 194TWO) but hard to imagine that on a small size cover.

Any guesses?

My best guess is it was meant to be sent Reg'd and that was not asked for or done at PO counter it seems weird. Reg'd rate was 5d up to Dec 1941 so that may be the answer.

Hay is a smallish town, but even so the 5d Ram stamp for that rate would be a standard item in the stamp book you'd have thought.

So I'm leaning to the boss saying "that one is to be Registered" and the mail girl putting 5 x 1d on it in anticipation, and neglecting to tell the PO clerk to add the label.

Glen,

It may well be that the stamps are from the 'petty cash' tin and may simply be what the business had around at the time. Hard to see this cover as anything but commercial in every sense of the word. I like the suggestion that it was supposed to have been registered but wasn't.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Hang on! Wasn't Airmail still 3d in 1941???

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Glen and Peter,

I agree with Peter. The letter rate was 2d per ounce till December 1941 when the war tax was added. Airmal was 3d per half ounce till 1959. So a half ounce letter would be 5d. Half ounce to one ounce would be 8d ect.

I will take it Glen for $50 if that is still the deal.

Tim

But was there an airmail service between Hay, NSW and Sydney (Parramatta)?


Scott

Yes that was my thought .. no way known - or even close.

You can drive it today .. as you could then, in about 5 hours.

But yes, now I read back on it, I can see there was a 5d "airmail" rate.

So for Perth to SYD, the extra 3d made sense, but gee whizz to HAY?!

Anyway a dealer saw it a few hours back, and loved it - as he has client keen on Ford covers.

The airmail sticker is a bit of a giveaway.

I suspect that, in those days, it would have taken as long to fly as to drive. I would be extremely surprised to hear that there wasn't an airmail service from Hay. It wouldn't have had to originate there but would certainly have been on the route the airmail service took.

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Re the GB mini-sheet issue I know also quite a few people (not stamp people...) who- what was it 4/5 years ago?- bought lots of the Ashes minisheet when England had finally managed to win after a 1000 years (or so) and used the bottom 'higher rates' stamps for Xmas cards to Australia and the top ones as normal stamps. Stanley Gibbons assumption that mini-sheets are never broken up for normal post is definitely faulty...Would actually view collecting bits of mini-sheets as an interesting challenge but not an impossible one. Probably rewarding in a few years...

And I've used heaps of the Burns ms. The higher rates cover many birthday cards to Oz...

Well, "contrivance" is yet another grey area. For example, in the 70's and 80's many dealers and auction houses found themselves heavily overstocked with modern mint issues and so frequently used them on mail delivering auction lots and so on, simply as a way to reduce stock. Is that "contrivance" or simple commercial reality?

An interesting point, Tazzles. No doubt there is an element of the commercial in this, but ...

How often do you see obsolete postage used on bulk mail from the commercial aggregators of bulk mail, like Salmat? I don't recall ever doing so. I suspect that any economies from buying postage at less than face are largely swallowed by the cost of labour in assembling odd denominations into usable amounts, and then plastering them over covers.

On balance, the usage is philatelic because it is by players in the industry, doing it because they can. Take this piece of mail that was returned to me:



I was using Christmas Island Chinese New Year stamps on strictly commercial mail to Chinese customers, in the hope of catching their eyes and pleasing them. Of course it's philatelic, though, even though there was a very commercial consideration involved, because it required me to go the extra step of picking up the gutter pair of Christmas Island to use.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

And for those who think that a dealer as sender or recipient makes a cover philatelic, how about this cover with SG 41 and SG 45 of Jind?





This gentleman dealt in stamps (among other things) of Jind (among other States), as we can see from the back of the cover. Does that make this cover 'philatelic'? Not in my book. If it was, the stamps would have been much more carefully arranged.

_________________
'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

The vandal that wrote on the front needs to be lined up and shot

_________________
AUSTRALIA 2013 EXHIBITION - 10 to 15 MAY 2013 - http://www.australia2013.com

Oh, shooting is far too good for such vandals! I hate it when I see such 'additions', especially in pen (like this is!). What is wrong with making notes on a separate piece of paper and storing it with the cover?

_________________
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008.

Peter,

Totally agree. There are so many other options.

Tim

Didge I collect covers as well. To my mind if it is addressed and opened then it has to be commercial usage. All APO FDC could be postally used, as with any covers made up.

Sam

Ian, if this is 1945-6 (as I assume from the stamps -- Chinese Nationalist Victory issue -- which were issued in October 1945 according to the cat, can't read the cancels on the scan) then yes, that's almost certainly what it would be. Stamps for import and export still had to go through the BPA for checking -- up until 1953 for some places, so mail to dealers was addressed c/o the BPA.

The idea being that as stamps are small and portable, and as this thread shows it's not always easy to know if something's a rare and valuable item without specialised knowledge, it was necessary to have someone with such knowledge check licensed imports and exports to make sure no-one was trying to get round the currency control regulations by sending rare stuff marked as "normals" or whatever. (Incidentally, this is one of my sideline collections, so if you still have the thing please let me know!)

Whether it counts as commercial or philatelic ... hmm. The trouble is, "commercial" basically means "sent for a purpose other than getting an interesting usage" and "philatelic" basically means "franking specially contrived to be an interesting usage" and these two aren't mutually exclusive. With this and a number of other items I think you'd have to say it's both at once, with it being increasingly philatelic the more effort that was put into getting an "offbeat" franking.

I have been puzzling over this one all day. Commercial or Philatelic?

Totally commerical looking 1891 East Melbourne to the GPO. Nice strikes of the MCCCCC/14 (1414) Duplex.

HOWEVER - 3 things are weird. Maybe others can add their thoughts.

1. Someone has glued on a CUT-OUT from a postcard as the 1d franking .. totally against all rules and regulations. It is really thick as you can see any even the blindest clerk could see that it was. And all Reg'd needed to be lodged in person as per admonition across top.

2. That stamps and the printed 3d impression on back to cover Reg'd fee got cancelled BEFORE the envelope was sealed. As you can see the flap was opened out and cancelled. Strange, as Registered in that era was usually cancelled once or more ACROSS the sealed flaps, so that any tampering would be evident etc.

3. There is no Registered label. Possibly the "48" at top right was a manuscript Reg'd marking, but that was NOT policy, and the labels were almost always to left hand side of any article and the lower left of this is perfectly empty.

Any thoughts?

Just a thought - were there registered labels at this point? I know that there are many GB QV covers without labels, but I don't know when they were introduced. But it is odd that the duplex doesn't tie the flap to the front.

_________________
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Introduced 1907 for GB -- as I recall most (all?) of the colonies didn't introduce labels until then either, and have seen Australian covers without label from this sort of era.

The envelope looks almost CTO -- I've seen one of those used in GB, what the circumstances were I'm not sure. But if it has a cutout on it then there's a strong suggestion of it being philatelic, given that philatelists were the main users of cutouts. I don't know if they were allowed in Victoria or not at this point -- was it a definite rule? I have a cutout used from Australia from about 1930, although that one does seem at least semi-commercial IIRC!

(I know they were accepted in GB except for one period where there was a specific reason for banning them -- from the early 1870s when the PO wanted to let postcards go through without being cancelled to save time, and introduced an overkill 'no cutouts' rule for all postal stationery -- re-allowed from 1905 onwards.)

I had never thought on it before, but yes it seems there were NO labels as such from Vic in 1890s.

However most covers had "R" handstamps and/or oblong handstamp

It is looking more commercial all the time.

Your 3rd postcard (UPU) above has 3 postcard type cut-outs affixed.

Maybe using them was O.K.

Who knows what was going through the clerks mind when he cancelled it. He may have gotten ahead of himself.

_________________
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

Folks,

I know that in some peoples mind a cook strip of five must be philatelic. What about this one? Commercial or philatelic. Right rate right time.

Tim

if it was philatelic in nature, the stamps would be in intact in the strip of five?
Commercial address, average cancel, I'd say def commercial.

Mstary,

I agree but how did it end up in that configuration I wonder?

Tim

Folks,

Here is a cover that I posted in another thread but I thought it was worth a run here as well. Its a cover from Tighes Hill (Anyone know where that is?) NSW to the Philatelic Bureau in Honiara Solomon Islands. Its registered. The rate is 75 cents registration and 15 cents airmail to Zone 2. Right rate, right time. My guess is that its a collector paying a standing order to the post office for Solomons stamps. Purely commercial transaction. If it was addressed to the Electricity company and paying a power bill there would not be an arguement. Zone 2 airmail items are rare.

Let the debate begin.

Tim

When it comes to commercial Vs Philatelic, for my mind the cancel is a big factor.

Looking at your cover Tim, Blurred, weak cancel lends to commercial. Correct rate and not an FDC also
lends weight to commercial. But the address would have doubters.

I have my collection separated and this would go in the commercial section.

Just my 2cents

I picked this up recently. Philatelic but nice.

Of particular note is the NSW 3d green. This stamp was originally issued in 1856 printed from an intaglio plate which was used right up until 1913. Only the papers changed.



You can barely make out a "66" on the 13 cent avocet. I make the franking 20 cents, sound right?

Cheers,
Mark.

_________________
Reddog aka Mark Rowen.
I have a red dog, his name is Buddy.

Hi Didge, Tighes Hill is a suburb of Newcastle, NSW, on the Western side. The main road that runs through it turns into Hunter Street, the main drag of Newcastle. There is a big Tech. College there that I attended for 3 years back in the 70's

Sam

Something else that keeps rattling through my grey matter, commercial Vs Philatelic, is it not all 'Postaly Used'

I have spent a lot of time these holidays(precious time to the self employed) sorting my Pre decimal covers and entering it all into a database. I decided to catagorise thus,

1: Postaly Used-Single stamp
2: Postaly Used-Multiple Stamp
3: Postaly Used-FDC(Individual,Wesley,Neville Menz, etc.)

Postaly Used-FDC(Individual)


Simplicity must rule, FDC it is, Commercially used it is(letter inside), Air Mail Townsville to Katoomba, Philatelic yes-no

Sam

Hi All,

Two covers I thought I might have a stab at.

Chris

1st: Registered cover posted in Perth to a Perth address using AAT stamps .... Philatelic?





2nd: Airmail cover Australia- Holland first regular Air Service. Posted NSW via Amsterdam to Perth .... Commercial?

_________________
"Where there's a will, I want to be in it."

Hi All,

Two covers I thought I might have a stab at.

Chris

1st: Registered cover posted in Perth to a Perth address using AAT stamps .... Philatelic?





2nd: Airmail cover Australia- Holland first regular Air Service. Posted NSW via Amsterdam to Perth .... Commercial?






Both philatelic.

1st one posted to be a first day cover.

2nd one posted to be part of a special flight.

Both contrived and philatelic in my eyes.