Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum
 

I collect stamps since childhood, and all these years I am asking myself one and the same question:

Why catalog stamp values (be it Michel, Stanley Gibbons, Yvert or Scott), with the exception of values given for rare stamps, are so far removed from stamp prices realizing on the market?

I've heard all usual dealers' explanations of this glaring discrepancy (hundreds of times), including incessant lecturing about "very fine" condition, centering, etc., etc.

There is no official definition of "very fine" or "fine," of course; everyone knows that same dealers often call "very fine" damaged and off-center stamps that one would never think about including in a collection.

So, what's up with all those catalog values? It was a mystery to me until I found out, who are the ubiquitous "catalog editors."

They are stamp dealers!

It explains everything, doesn't it?

Dealers are interested in pushing stamp prices as high as possible. Catalogs, used by collectors, are the most convenient tools to obfuscate real market conditions, confuse the novices, and profit from it all.

I sincerely hope that with Internet, eBay, and other advances of technology and entrepreneurial spirit, there will be some day an honest stamp catalog listing actual realized prices for stamps in their most usual collectible condition.

Siberian

You are absolutely right.........it does explain everything!

Those darn dealers are everywhere.

Now that you've broken the code and discovered the backdoor to the stamp market, I hope you let us know when you've published your "true market" catalogue of world stamps.

I know I for one, will be very interested in reading it!

John A

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Armstrong'sStamps**http://www.armstrongsstamps.ca
Knowledge is Key.....Libraries work!

At first MICHEL is not a dealer! I am not a dealer too!

And - please - do not confuse catalogue prices with ebay prices.

Catalogue prices are - you are right - dealer prices. Dealers have to pay for room, heating, electricity ... and perhaps for assisting persons. If you go to a dealer you want him to have most of the stamps you want - so he has to pay for this storage too. On ebay you often have people with no knowledge and people, who have to sell.
So there are different prices!
Naturally, I want to buy my stamps as cheap as possible - like you!

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Wolfgang
Papua New Guinea stamps and postal history: http://www.i-ng.org

You claim to have "found out" that catalog editors are stamp dealers - I also don't think thats so, so would you please back up your claim. Is your basis only the discrepancy wrt catalog and actual sale prices?

Of the companies/publisher's Siberian has listed so far, only Stanley Gibbons is a retail operation. I'm sure the other publishers will plead guilty to having some dealer representatives on their editorial staff though.......

I hear dealers have infiltrated almost every facet of Philately!!

John A

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Armstrong'sStamps**http://www.armstrongsstamps.ca
Knowledge is Key.....Libraries work!

Backing up my "claim" that catalog editors are stamp dealers:

Read the preface to your catalog, and compare the names of editors with the names of dealers.

I am glad nobody denies the obvious: catalog prices are dealers' prices.

I would like to see a catalog listing real prices.

My heart bleeds for poor dealers but... collectors are also human beings, and "have to pay for room, heating, electricity ... and perhaps for assisting persons."

And -- with the worldwide Web-based browsing and auction sites providing for unimpeded access to all stamps offered by collectors -- who needs dealers, anyway?

Siberian

I personally have a rather large collection of auction catalogs (most with prices realized) and use that as a basis of "trying" to determine values. In order to get a real feel for "true" value (isn't that a hardware store?) you would have to ascertain the condition of each item (stamp, cover, etc) and enter everything into a spread sheet. For a small area, such as Palestine I know I spend hours a month keeping track of things like this. At something like $80/hr for my time that would add quite an additional amount to the prices. SO, frankly MOST catalog prices aren't too far off when you consider - time, effort, staff and marginal expenses. We just pick them up and use them, wondering why prices are so whacky.

The idea of a "pure" Stamp Collectors Guide to a particular area would be interesting and almost impossible to coordinate and produce. But, it might be worth a try - assuming you could find 10-15 collectors with unbiased philatelic knowledge willing to give several hundred hours of their time to constructing such a publication. Frankly, this group could probably do that for some facet of Australian collecting. But to put together a complete catalog of Australia might be well beyond such a group. Remember, this has to be a group WITHOUT members who are selling stamps, since that would bias their views. Tough project.

Mike

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Mike
Why do we need perforations? Scissors are cheap!

It would also have to be folks who did not own any stamps and did not intend to buy any stamps either, it you really want to eliminate bias.

Once more I am not a dealer, but I am selling stamps!
I sell them for disabled people and we get the stamps as a gift.

So here is the main difference:
I can sell stamps at a very low price. We do not want to store them, we want to have money immediately.
A dealer has to buy the stamps that you want so he has to ask higher prices. But he will have those stamps you want. I can offer only those we are donated!

A dealer has to ask even for a very common stamp a price - maybe only some pennies.
If I get some children interested in stamps I can offer a bag of these commonn stamps for the same amount!

Most important:
Collecting stamps is a hobby!
Investing money you should know a lot about stamps!

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Wolfgang
Papua New Guinea stamps and postal history: http://www.i-ng.org

Perhaps I'll jump in and ask Siberian a couple obvious questions:

--What is a dealer? Is a person on eBay with 12,000 feedback from selling stamps a dealer? Is that person not a dealer because he/she says so, so that they don't have to pay any business taxes on their "hobby selling"?

--Would you prefer that 42 non-collecting soccer players create a stamp catalogue that you would use as a bible for buying and selling?

--Do you seriously expect us to believe that there are no dealers selling on the "auction sites" you want to use as your basis for pricing?

--When you surf the "web-based sites" you want to use for your pricing, do you not find that 10 of the first 15 links available when you search are professional dealer sites?

Something tells me that those rotten dealers are everywhere, pretending that the knowledge they've accumulated over the years of participating in their hobby is actually valid and worth something.

I'll watch for your publication of the non-knowledge based stamp catalogue and the matching web site......fully funded by you and offered for free........because if you sell it, you may be mistaken for a dealer!!

John A

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Armstrong'sStamps**http://www.armstrongsstamps.ca
Knowledge is Key.....Libraries work!

John A, your irony is wasted, and your questions are off-topic.

I don't claim to have discovered America. But I am tired of painfully explaining all the underwater rocks and myths of stamp collecting to beginners (and I've brought a few to the fold).

Even the statement "catalog values are dealers' prices" is not completely true, because I've never bought a stamp valued less than $1000 for more than a fraction of CV, even from a dealer. Therefore, the absolute majority of catalog values are pure fiction, created to defraud the innocent.

Catalog values are not the only myth promulgated by stamp dealers. They will tell you at every opportunity to forget thinking about stamp collecting as of an investment. In fact, if you know your stamps, stamps are a VERY good investment, beating inflation 3:1 in any decade. Even if you are spending more than 50% of CV (which is a waste of money in most cases), you SAVE, and you can sell when the rainy day comes. Stamps saved my financial skin couple of times, I know what I am talking about.

Now, who is a stamp dealer? A stamp dealer is a person who primarily lives off the proceeds from selling stamps. A collector regularly selling his duplicates on eBay may have a very large feedback but he is not a dealer. A typical stamp dealer is a person who routinely cheats widows and other heirs, buying at ridiculously low prices and selling as high as possible. Internet auctions brought disarray to this established routine. Some dealers realize that their end is near, and are selling their reserves ASAP. The others are attempting to ignore reality -- they are destined for bankruptcy.

As a character witness, I may say this: out of several dozens of stamp dealers I have known personally, some were very knowledgeable (one might say, "experts") in their field, some were ignorant and lazy, but most were dishonest, pushy, greedy, and rude. Occupational hazard, perhaps.

Yes, I have known two or three stamp dealers who would be welcome as my dinner guests: interesting, knowledgeable people with rich life experiences and cultural values that outweighed their desire to make a fast buck by parting a fool with his money. So what? As in any profession, good people are few, human nature being what it is.

We need at least to talk to beginners as often as possible, debunking widespread dealers' myths. I think with horror of all the money I could have saved if I knew 40 years ago what I know now! And no stamp dealer -- ever! -- warned me, explained things to me, offered me a sound advice. I learned the long and hard way to spend my philatelic funds wisely. And I learned to despise most of the stamp dealers.

Siberian

Following this logic, all retailers, regardless of what they sell, are thieves.

Most of us live in a free market economy. If a dealer can buy cheap and sell at a profit, good on him/her. If someone is willing to sell to a dealer at what we think is a stupid price, but they're happy, that's fine too. If someone is happy to pay 75% of CV to a dealer for a particular stamp, that's fine too. If you know of dealers charging full CV, don't buy from them, I wouldn't!

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Always looking for KGV British Commonwealth, mint, used, covers, anything

My questions are off topic about catalogue values and dealers........yet you ramble aimlessly about dinner guests,widows and thieves.

I certainly stand corrected. You do know what you're talking about and I'm still the fool.

You took a debatable topic (established catalogue value), spun it into a blatant attack on the integrity of any and all stamp dealers (except the three dinner guests???) and for me you sealed the thread when you admitted that you don't want to waste any more time assisting beginner stamp collectors.

Isn't it strange how things look when snippets are taken out of context to wage baseless arguments??

Good luck with your new catalogue

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Armstrong'sStamps**http://www.armstrongsstamps.ca
Knowledge is Key.....Libraries work!

John A,

Yes, things look strange when they are taken out of context and spun to wage your baseless (and aimless) arguments. And thank you for illustrating my point by showing the typical dealer's attitude.

Sherro,

It is not entirely a free market where all the information about product pricing, reference materials, periodicals, and major associations are controlled by the people who sell the product.

Siberian

Kev,

Bitter? Probably. Life made me somewhat bitter.

Twisted? Twisted are people who push catalog values up to an out-of-this-world level to confuse and defraud beginners, keep telling you that stamp collecting is "a hobby, not an investment," try to sell you damaged, repaired, and fake stamps as "very fine," and start insulting you as soon as you dare notice that you are being had.

Siberian

Are you going to tell us the story behind this tirade? Who did this to you?

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Always looking for KGV British Commonwealth, mint, used, covers, anything

Sherro,

I would prefer not to name the names: some people are incredibly mean and vindictive, and the guiltier they are, the more vindictive they become.

On the positive note, I know of at least two attempts to create an on-line stamp catalog with scanned illustrations and reasonable valuations. They are not very successful yet -- but some day, somebody will do it. At least classic and topical stamp collecting could become independent of information controlled by the suppliers.

I am acquainted with a collector who spends every free minute of his time preparing a very detailed online topical database allowing one to search for all stamps of any country related to hundreds of various topics. Titanic labor. He is nearing completion!

Many useful sites already exist showing forgeries, and explaining how to recognize them.

I am thinking of preparing a specialized online catalog of Russian and Soviet stamps in English, listing real prices. Perhaps, if many philatelists would do something like that in their areas of interest, the fraudulent confusion created by artificially high catalog values would disappear.

The biggest problem, of course, is the cross-referencing by catalog numbers -- copyright laws allow catalog publishers (dealers and their friends) to stifle independent competition. However, as there is an Internet revolution in publishing and music, there will be a revolution in stamp collecting also.

Siberian

You know what? I wouldn't care if they left the values off. I only use the catalogues as a reference and not to value a stamp.

I only just updated to a SG2007 Stamps of the World Catalogue and only because my collection changed.

Maybe I don't care because I don't sell and if I buy I only buy with a figure I'm happy to spend.

Brummie,

I agree with you absolutely. Catalogs are most useful as reference.

But what if you need to sell, for example, a duplicate of a used (CTO) 1943 Soviet "Siege of Leningrad" souvenir sheet in pristine condition?

You look into Scott and find out that its catalog value is $20. OK. Being diligent, you look also into Solovyev's specialized Russian catalog and find out that your sheet is "Type II," which is approximately 1.5 times more expensive than the cheapest "Type I." OK. Therefore, catalogs tells you that your souvenir sheet's value is approximately $30. Right?

Wrong. It's market price is about $5, and that's what you should expect -- but no catalog will tell you so, and there is no information that would allow you to define the fraction of a catalog value that you need to use in each individual case.

In some cases, it's 10% of CV, in other cases 25%, and so on. You need to memorize enormous amount of information about the relative popularity of various time periods, countries, topics, and stamp conditions (I wouldn't even touch the subject of covers, it's jungle out there!) to form a reasonable judgment.

What, then, catalog values are good for, tell me? They are not market prices, the are not dealers' prices, they aren't even reliable as some kind of a reference that can be taken with a pinch of salt.

What good are they?

One thing, and one thing only: to confuse and defraud collectors.

Siberian

Hi Siberian,

I share a good part of your complaints.
But creating a worldwide list of REAL values of stamps must be wrong, since you get a lot more money for e.g. German stamps in Germany than in other countries. The demand for them are much bigger here than e.g. in New Zealand.
So real prices for German stamps must differ in Germany and NZ.
Even if you can buy worldwide via internet nowadays you have to add shipping and insurance and the possibility of losing the letter on its way to you.

So the better way is to explain to newbies these connections regarding prices and values of stamps even if it is a lot of work.

Regards, Lars

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from beautiful SW-Germany

So how come there are so many stamps you see described as "Under catalogued", which sell for 100% CV or more?

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Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

You simply need to get out more.

The 10 Volume ACSC set has real prices that are very often EXCEEDED when an informed buyer wants the item.

Sensible buyers realise this is the reality here in oz. Luckily the USA is only a blip on the world stamp market.

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.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

This sums it up pretty much. I could write a book about it but I couldn't say it any better!

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My blog on philately http://toivostamps.blogspot.com

Every few weeks we get some one slagging off dealers,for some reason or another,making out we are all the same,Flinty eyed,two horned,with tails,with nothing better to do in life but rip people off,and make their lives miserable,
And catalogues are the work of the devil.nothing should be belived,thats in them,

Come on mate,loosen up a bit,we are not all like that at all.
yes one or two doggy dealers are out there but thats only a very small % and EVERY trade,industry,office has them.so stop tarring us all with the one brush,

And as for your tirade about Catalogues,well so much is utter B.Dust.

A catalogue is a Selling list,nothing more,,,
If one dealer has a stock of stamps that catalogues at $500.00 but are not selling ,,he WILL cut the price to obtain some cash flow,to put into something he needs,
If on the other hand a dealer has one of something that catalogues at $500.00 and he has 2 people wanting it ,,,it WILL be sold at $500.00.

This is the commercial world,,,no hidden adgenda,just good old supply and demand.

Every day of the week my mailbox is filled with Catalogues from Stores wanting to sell me White Goods,Furniture,Cars,Holidays,etc etc .these are put out by Dealers in those goods,who will sell to me at the price shown in the Catalogue.perhaps discount some for cash,or trade ins,
But you seem to be quite happy with all that side of commerce JUST having a go at Stamp Dealers in General,

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Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

I see you collect Russia and Soviet Union.

So let's correct something. You wrote:



First of all the siege of Leningrad was lifted on 27th January of 1944. This S/S was issued in 1944.
You have not probably seen (the latest) catalogues printed in Russia by Russians if you take your data from Scott.

No wonder you're not happy. Latest Soloviev catalogue 2010/11 for USSR period 1923-60 (second part is 1961-1991), printed in Moscow gives about 5-6$ for used sheet. Different catalogues give different types - some say one variation is type I while others seem to say it's type II and other variation is instead I.

I'm too lazy to post a picture but more scarce type (less around the market) costs nealy twice compared to more common in this catalogue. And even so you can get it for less. Prices in Soloviev reflect the real market situation in Russia and in former USSR states.

Maybe I'm wrong but Soviet and Russia are top popular here and here are probably biggest amounts of these stamps scattered all over.

If something is scarce for the market right now it's more highly priced in Soloviev. For example Michel often gives value based on nomination. But in Soloviev you see prices based on how available some stamp is. Demand and supply, easy.

It's never going to change, catalogues and dealers existing or not. I just recently got it and even before this I knew most prices were like this, atleast around on this side of the pond.

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My blog on philately http://toivostamps.blogspot.com

A few random thoughts...

If a budding (new) stamp collector asks me about values and catalogues I suggest the following:
Get a second hand catalogue (within the last 5 years) first, its cheap.
Second its a good guide to what stamps you want to collect, what gaps to fill, and in general, which ones will be hard to get as they cost more.
With the values I have a simple rule of thumb - take the "0" off the end of the value and thats pretty close to what youll pay to get any stamp.
Its only a guide - dont beat me up over it - and besides any new collector will not be looking at buying high value stamps, yet.
Any dealer who wants to stay in business will look after his customer!

As to most stamps I see on ebay - and I buy a lot - both single and in bulk, they are nearly never the quality that is described in all catalogues as clean, undamaged, lightly cancelled, reasonably centred etc. Its easy to raise the value with an excellent example of any stamp!
Its also very easy to be trapped into thinking youve bought a bargain with your stamp that was just 10% of catalogue but it is slightly off colour, is missing a perf, has a single rust spot, the cancel is heavy, the paper was folded, is off centre etc etc. Too many variations in the real world to blame the catalogue author!

As far as current and correct real world values goes I would consider it near impossible for one organisation to get close or to be able to update the values of issues and variations on stamps that now run into the millions if types. So catalogues will always err on a rising value, a "ballpark" figure. They have no choice. They print a catalogue one day and the next they will be wrong somewhere with some stamp - cant be helped.

With an online regularly updated catalogue. Im sure I read that SG has nearly finished just that and it may be that they will NO LONGER print a catalogue! You will have to subsribe to the web site yearly and view everything online.
Imagine the job of updating that spreadsheet!!!

I've met good dealers, I've met bad dealers. The good dealers I now know by name, the bad ones seem to go out of business rather quickly - they must think stamps collectors never talk to each other! Or read Stampboards!
TTFN

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Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

......and by the way, don't forget - you won't get more for a stamp or whatsoever, someone else is prepared to give you.
In what I collect, catalogue values are mostly regardless - the price is mostly made by negotiations.




peter

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Who finds spelling mistakes, may keep them!

You been looking in that mirror again, Mr B

But seriously, you're quite right - negative generalising about stamp dealers is no better than any other form of prejudice (and no more true).

Next time someone wants to make that sort of comment, they should think whether their collection would be better or worse (or more- or less-valuable) without any Stamp Dealers

I imagine catalogue values are best meant to be a guide to the price that a collector of that (country/theme/type of philatelic) type of item (and not looking for immediate profit by increase in catalogue value) and trying to fill a gap/complete a collection might pay for that particular item in its most common form ( eg most common shade or watermark) unless stated otherwise.

I hope that one day I only need one or 2 stamps to fill a particular collection , then I will gladly pay the CV.

Pitchfork carrying, two horned, tail weilding dealers responsible for writing catalogues? *races off to delete last post*

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Has fallen in love with Flora & Fauna FDC's!

I had forgotten about this thread,,perhaps just as well, as it was begining to get me rattled.with all his half baked ideas,and conspirisory theories.

wonder whats happened to him..perhaps he was got at by some drunken stamp dealers,and was sold off as a slave,to some coin dealers,

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Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

I'm not a fan of negatively generalised statements in relation to any group of people be it either race, religion, occupation, life experience and or other.

In my opinion, people should be judged based on personal merit and character over a period. (We all do have our moments). Generalised, uninformed statements reduce the credibility and reasoning of any other possibly valid information they have to share.

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Has fallen in love with Flora & Fauna FDC's!

My view is , any Stamp listed at less than $1 in any Catalogue is just a fee to handle it, forget it , dont bother about it anymore ,we all know you can get a hundred anytime for a quarter pack of cigarettes.

Now thats done let take a look at the 10% thats left, anything under $10 is not a real worry is it, if you got it for $5 it would not change your life would it.

Now thats done lets look at the 5% left, NO ONE can keep up with these ,the catalogue may be only a guide the year it comes out, any Stamp over $500 is always in flux according to how many of you Guys are chasing it at any given Auction at any time , most collectors only ever buy one for their collection so if its $350, $500 or $600 so be it , usually in 10 years it will be similar or double , that is the game , its Exactly like real Estate,Chinese Vases, any Collectable, when you think about it.
Only they dont normally have a Catalogue, they just do Books of, if its a bit like this one , it will be a bit like this one in price.

Probably the way forward would be publishers selling the same bloody book but titled ,
2010 RECOMMENDED RETAIL PRICE ALL ISSUED GB STAMPS.
and similar titles world ,how would that go down Guys ,as I think most of us have a handle on RRP, discounts are normal except for top name Retailers.

lol (at) 2010 RECOMMENDED RETAIL PRICE ALL ISSUED GB STAMPS - YIP.. Id buy it.. lol

I've got idea what I'm doing when it comes to purchasing stamps - except I have tried to get all the latest direct from Australia Post. When I spy something pretty on eBay. I almost always search for it everywhere else too, to make sure I am getting a good deal and cant find something same quality, but hopefully cheaper!

Sometimes I'm lazy and dont bother - but thats on me - fundamentally my responsibility in the end.

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Has fallen in love with Flora & Fauna FDC's!

Glad I wasn't paying attention when this thread started, as it is rife with misinformed generalizations.

Depending on what you collect, or in what grade/condition you collect them, catalog values may be tiny compared to actual retail or auction prices.

There are plenty of items in my collecting focus that I would LOVE to be able to buy at only 100% of catalog value. But they come along so infrequently and the catalog prices haven't been updated in decades due to low sales populations, that if and when something does appear, the competition at auction is fierce.

I'd love to be able to buy some of the U.S. 1st Issue revenue double impressions and bisects on document at the prices listed in Scott.

Not happening.

Trying to generalize that all stamps sell it tiny fractions of catalog values can be way off the mark, depending on specialization.

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www.revenue-collector.com - Member APS, ARA
Click here to see my U.S. revenue wantlist.

Average auction price realized on ebay comes close to identifying market value. If there was a universal catalogue numbering system, and if the ebay site allowed you to retrieve prices realized for the past five or so years, you could quickly identify average market value and market trends for any given stamp or cover from ebay data.

The different numbering systems used by Scott, Michel, etc are an impediment. You have to search by each separately. And, to the best of my knowledge, the ebay site allows you to retrieve only recent prices realized. A pity. Five years worth of data would be much more meaningful than three months.

I have been monitoring ebay prices realized for years to develop a sense of the market and market trends. In time, one develops parameters (formulas) that allow for enlightened bidding. This is time consuming but gets easier with experience. The objective, of course, is to acquire items at the lowest possible fraction of "book" value. Your formulas tell you how low you can go but still succeed much of the time.

I'll mention just one of my formulas. Perhaps it is similar to yours. For postally used vintage singles in very fine or better condition, I bid 18% of Scott. If that doesn't succeed after a few tries, I'll creep upwards until I hit paydirt.

I stay away from "hot" items. The market can be manipulated! Beware of "gold fever." Better to wait a few years and focus on other areas of interest. Consider, for example, how vintage German covers have tanked over the past few years.

I could write a book about how to bid on ebay. Maybe I should!

Not for all collecting concentrations. True high-end philatelic material (whether scarcity or grade) does not wind up on eBay. The same thing with very esoteric pieces. They don't show up on eBay except by accident.

Even on run-of-the-mill material, eBay auction results do not take into consideration Buy-It-Now or Best Offer sales. Many shoppers only shop fixed price, just as there are others who only bid in auctions. Also, completed auction prices when? What time of week? What month of year? You will get radically different results in November than in July.

Trying to extrapolate a "one size fits all" calculation really does no good. You are more likely to encounter garbage and/or misidentified examples on eBay than gems.

Don't get me wrong; I both buy and sell on eBay in addition to many other venues... but I would never suppose to try to generalize "real value" from eBay completed auctions. Too many variables to be accurate.

In fact, I would posit that doing searches of the stampauctionnetwork.com archives would be far more productive.

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www.revenue-collector.com - Member APS, ARA
Click here to see my U.S. revenue wantlist.

The biggest roadblock in the "theory" of ebay giving an accurate assessment of market value from their auction results, is that auctions can be listed for different lengths of time (....and at different opening bids). If a quality item is listed as a 3 day auction over the American SuperBowl weekend, or the World Cup final, you may find the results are quite different, than if you listed the same article as a 7 day auction away from those world-watched events. The skew from this alone would throw the results off considerably. Check Completed Items Only for this item 2 months later and unless you are aware of the timing of the sale, you may think that you can always get the item for next to nothing.

Also, the number of items listed at the ebay promoted .99 cent start bid, will lead to more items selling at a lower price for short term auctions, if the higher number of potential bidders are not viewing. Again, a couple of completed $6.49 items could really skew your assessment of the value of an item.

There is some merit in ebay as a reference tool for collectors, but they do not always represent the market outside of the tech world.

Sometimes reality bites............and collectors need to remember that the only value to items is what the person with the cash is willing to pay for the item you have for sale. I can always hold out for $100.00 when selling a Canada Bluenose, but if 5 people with cash in their hand say it's priced too high, then there is a decision to be made.

Online auctions have a lot of variable that skew the final results.......timing, start bid, shipping cost attached to the item, payment method accepted, region sale is allowed to (ie: US ONLY). If you've found a system that seems to fit your desired purchasing program, more power to you, but I can't suggest that it is a sound "across-the-board" formula for every type of material and for every collector.

John A

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Armstrong'sStamps**http://www.armstrongsstamps.ca
Knowledge is Key.....Libraries work!

And way above average excellent items at public auctions will go for crazy above catalogue prices. Nobody is going to put those items up for bid on eBay. There are two pages of examples at the beginning of the new Unitrade Canadian Catalogue. One example is 1cent Yellow 1922 Admiral, catalogue $90. I have one with not so hot centring in a lot I'm trying to price right now. It's in a lot of 271 stamps, with admirals, OHMS, scroll issue, etc. Some of the people on the boards have commented the I should put it up for 10% or less of catalogue. So that yellow Admiral, along with the other 270 stamps, should supposedly go for around $200. At auction, the one really nice XFNH Admiral fetched....what...catalogue price of $90? NO! It fetched $632.50!!

Now consider you are the one making a catalogue. If a stamp with a catalogue of $90 can auction for $632.50, and you check an eBay average to set a catalogue value, and maybe set the "real" value at $9.00, aren't you just as way off? So if people who make catalogues have to reach some concensus between these extremes, I'd hardly call it a dealers' game, I'd call it a dealers' headache.

They are guidelines, not a dealers' conspiracy. I've received more help than harm from dealers. A dealer is the one who pointed out to me that a stamp trying to pass itself off as mint NH was actually regummed and repaired, and taught me how to spot it. That scammer!!!! All of 'em!!!!!

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Always looking for modern Canada on paper!
Topical Interests: Disney, Boats/Sailing Ships/Lighthouses, Horses/Horsedrawn, Butterflies/Insects, and Trains - E-mail me with descriptions or scans if you have some!

Of course there are many variables that affect prices realized at ebay auction, and knowledge of them increases one's purchasing skill. But that does not diminish the significance of the mathematical average, nor the significance of how that mathematical average changes over time.

I factor "buy it now" prices in my bidding formulas, often bidding a pre-determined fraction of "buy it now". After all, it does not make sense to bid at auction for what can be bought for less as a "buy it now" (though some ebayers end up doing exactly that, shame on them).

Why do I almost never purchase "buy it nows" or patronize sellers' stores? Because I can purchase equally good material at a fraction of their prices through auction. I'm speaking of thousands of purchases a year of very, very high quality covers and stamps ranging in price from 99 cents to $100+.

One of the trends I have noticed regarding vintage covers this year is that much higher end material has been auctioned on ebay than in prior years. It has been a very startling change. I'm not speaking of ultra high end stuff, but individual covers that sold in the $100 - $400 range. There was a time not that long ago when prices in excess of $100 were rare. Not in 2010. I have no explanation for the change.

Being a retired person, I have opportunity to study ebay bidding for hours a day, and I do find it fascinating. I track hundreds of items of interest daily, mostly to learn, often to bid. I am exceptionally pleased with the quality and cost of what I have acquired over the years.

I was trained as a scientist, and I bring that scientific objectivity to my philatelic endeavors. I am 100% confident of the statements I have made about ebay and how the discriminating collector can use its data base to purchase high quality stamps and covers at a small fraction of retail cost or book value.

Postal History has been gaining popularity over the years,as more and more collecters wake up to the fact that each cover is a one off,and a collection that is unique can be built up that will gain in value ,

_________________
Nunawading Stamp Fair
Last Sunday of Every Month - Jaycees Hall Silver Grove - Nunawading.

To illustrate what I have said about how wise collectors can use the ebay marketplace to great advantage, I will present info on 7 covers I purchased from ebay auctions this past year. With regard to vintage, condition, and cost, these covers are representative of the thousands I have purchased from ebay auctions. Please understand that I could have listed 70 or 700 similar covers.

Before I get to the covers, I want to note that I enjoy very positive relationships with hundreds of ebay sellers. These are sellers who have proven their trustworthiness to me. Their merchandise has rarely disappointed. They value me as a customer because of my high volume of purchases and my rapid payment and because I only return items for refund when there is cause. Yes, there are a lot of very mediocre sellers on ebay, and some outright crooks, but one learns not to do repeat business with them. Experience is a great teacher, yes?

All of the covers that follow were solid buys, in my opinion. Some were outstanding. I'll rate each.



This is the Bahamas high value 3 shilling stamp issued in 1930, the one with dates. It is Scott #89. The 2007 Scott Specialized Catalogue gives a postally used off cover value of $110. I purchased it for $38.75 (all purchase prices include shipping cost), 35% of CV. Considering condition and scarcity, I believe this is a very good buy.



This is the France Rouen Aviation commemorative cover issued on 9/2/1922. I paid $10.55 for it. If you are familiar with the prices this cover usually fetches, you know this is an outstanding buy. I got it cheap because the seller did not identify it properly.



This is the complete Berlin/Goethe set on card. The 2006 Scott lists a postally used off cover value of $182.50 for the set. I paid $21.50 for this item, 12% of CV. Why did it come so inexpensively? The seller did not know what she was selling. In fact, her scan showed the front of this postcard, which is meaningless. It slipped through the cracks into my eager hands. A fabulous buy.



This is the one shilling stamp Great Britain issued in 1856, Scott #28. The CDS is 03/02/1861. This cover is in superb condition, a gem. The Scott 2007 Specialized gives a value of $425 for this cover. I paid $47.25, 11% of CV. A very solid buy.



This is a very early feeder flight cover from Tanganyika. Very fine condition. The feeder service covers are somewhat scarce and in high demand. I paid $11.35. I believe true market value is in the $29 - $35 range, based on other ebay sales. Not a spectacular buy, but a cover with some great history for a very reasonable price. I treasure it as much as the Berlin/Goethe item.



This is NZ Airmail Catalogue #83r, Blenheim to Invercargill dated 12/24/1932. It is signed and backstamped with NZ Airmail Society authentication. The catalogue states there were only 60 covers on this flight. It gives a value of $65. I paid $34.58. Not an earthshaking acquisition, but a rare item in superb condition for a very reasonable price, I believe. I'm proud to own it.



These are the first four airmail stamps issued by Saar on one very attractive cover in superb condition. An infrequently seen item. The selvage adds to the value. The Scott 2007 Specialized lists on cover values of $12.50, $21.00, $17.50, and $175 for the four stamps. I paid $59.00. Not a spectacular buy perhaps, but quite solid on the whole.

My approach to ebay is labor intensive. When I am in high purchase mode, I scan every vintage cover listed on ebay that day to try to find the ones likely to fall through the cracks. You might not be willing to be as patient and thorough as I am. But if you are, and if you study bidding patterns long enough to develop a firm grasp of market value, you'll be very pleased with your acquisitions.

I would like you to accept that I know what I'm talking about.

You've had great results. Congratulations. That still doesn't mean that you can extrapolate those percentages to ALL material. Furthermore, some of the items you show are not in the greatest of condition, hence there are legitimate reasons for their selling at a discount.

The same items in superb condition, would likely garner more attention and bids.

Don't get me wrong; I enjoy dumpster diving on eBay more tan anyone, but on certain levels of items, eBay simply won't work.

Happy hunting.

_________________
www.revenue-collector.com - Member APS, ARA
Click here to see my U.S. revenue wantlist.

kugelpost - most of what you post are clearly philatelic covers. Decent enough buys but clearly your 'highlights reel'.

(However the Saar is about DOUBLE what you'd pay to a real dealer in Germany for that aged grade I'd suggest! And the NZ flight cover I'd glady sell all day at $US35.)

If you spent a fraction of those same 100 or 1000 hours (collectors seems to value their time at zero for some VERY strange reason) looking at priced stock from mainline dealers you'd clearly have just as many good buys, and have 100s of more hours spare for other useful purposes in life.

If you delivered Pizzas for Dominos for 500 hours at just $15, you'd have $7,500 to spend on anything dealers offered, that took your fancy.

It is like buying a used car. Spending 100 hours looking at every car of that type offered privately for months might save you 10% over buying the same thing off a reputeable dealer with a Warranty. And not waste 100 hours of your life.

Glen

kugelpost your definition of a good buy was a small percentage of catalogue value. What this entire thread has discussed is that catalogue value is a number that may or may not mean anything. If you bought for 11% of catalogue that might look great unless real retail is 10% of catalogue, which it very well is for many areas of collecting.

Value is what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller. Nothing more, nothing less. All the opinions of the catalogue editors really don't mean too much unless money changes hands. Willing buyer - willing seller.

It seems to me, that whatever the method of scrummaging, hunting and discovering those personally 'ideal' stamps is, provided you are enjoying yourself, it is never a waste of your time.

_________________
Has fallen in love with Flora & Fauna FDC's!

I would suggest that you are spending way too much time analyzing
and not enough time enjoying the hobby. You sound like a wannabee
investor rather than a collector.

The Berlin card is a CTO handback and would be a tough sell. Some
some of your other covers have condition problems which significantly
reduce their value.

_________________
Jay Carrigan
http://www.jaypex.com

One certainly does get amazing responses on Stampboards! If I intended to present a "highlights" reel, I certainly would not have included the New Zealand FFC. I wonder why the market for these items is not stronger. A Canadian FFC from that era with only 60 flown covers would have higher market value. But I am happy with this purchase.

The comment about the Berlin/Goethe cover is ludicrous, in my opinion. Properly identified on ebay, this cover would fetch far more than I paid for it. The stamps soaked off cover and sold as a complete used set would garner far more. A vast amount of surviving vintage German stamps on cover are commemorative items that did not go through the mails. They do quite well in the world's largest and most active philatelic marketplace, ebay. Real world values, people!

As for condition, most of the covers I own went through the mail. Considering that and their vintage, they are high quality.

There's one problem with the wannabe investor comment: I will not part with my collection in my lifetime. I hope my heirs keep it in the family. God knows what it will be worth after all the baby boomers pass away. I can picture philately going bust. I won't be around to witness that, thank goodness.

I never considered becoming a delivery boy for Domino's Pizza, but now that you mention it, I might take that up!

I agree that value is what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller, not a figure printed in a book. That is why I find ebay highly relevant. Of course, ebay is frequently dissed in the rants posted on these message boards. Interesting how different message boards seem to develop particular subcultures of norms and biases. Guess I'll just have to accept being a Stampboards maverick.

Ebay and similar on-line auctions have revolutionized philately. Instead of the spurious values quoted in catalogues and the inflated prices charged by dealers, we have true market value determined by supply/demand, with prices realized available to all. Instead of descriptions without photos in auction catalogues or hard copy photos of fronts only, we have digital scans we can zoom in on, often with backsides pictured. Wonderful to know what you are buying before you bid (for those of us who don't live near cities where live auctions occur).

I am beginning to wonder how many Stampboards respondents are also dealers.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kugelpost

"Before there was googlemail, there was kuglemail."

I find it odd that everyone saying catalogue values aren't realistic are all comparing the value of their purchases compared to catalogue prices. "Oh! Way under catalogue! Buy it!" It's still the catalogue driving the sale.

_________________
Always looking for modern Canada on paper!
Topical Interests: Disney, Boats/Sailing Ships/Lighthouses, Horses/Horsedrawn, Butterflies/Insects, and Trains - E-mail me with descriptions or scans if you have some!