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Quite a few questions regarding cancellations on stamps of India. Apologies in advance for my complete ignorance with regards to cancellations and probably basic issues (I have only recently began attempting to expand knowledge about my collection as opposed to simply collecting). Any answers/useful information would be much appreciated!

Question 1: Is there anywhere I can get information on Sea Post Offices? Was the Cover sent 4th March in Po***na, arrived at Sea on 5th and then arrived in Germany 20th March?



Question 2: Is the text around the stamps which says something like "stamped ..." and the message on the top left part of the cancellation or was that written by the person who sent the cover/a person who has owned the cover since?

Question 3: Does the Sea Post Office stamp indicate the card was in transit from August 1909 until November 1909?

Question 4: The cancellation on the 4 anna 6 pies - was the stamp sent in August? Can anyone read the location?

Question 5: The Two Annas Six Pies has a "West Ridge" cancellation; the only place in India where I have been able to identify such a postmark in use is Mount Everest, however I suspect this can't be the West Ridge referred to in this cancellation. Any ideas where this stamp was used?

Question 6: Which location is the "L" cancellation for?

Question 7: On the 1 anna there seems to be some text; something like "FAM": any idea what this might be?

Question 8: What circumstances would result in a mixture of british and Indian stamps on a cover for something which seems to have been sent internally within India?


Finally, are any of these items somewhat scarce/valuable?

Many, many thanks,

Ben

Question 2 - Covers from India are often inscribed "stamped". As I understand it, the practice was to prevent theft of stamps between the sender and the post office.

This is also the answer to question 7.

Looks like Poona "Pune"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pune

Hello Ben,

The TPO & Seapost Society have a very useful site. Here's their page on the Sea Post Office service between Aden/Suez and Bombay:
http://www.tpo-seapost.org.uk/tpo2/spadenbombay.html

"The Bombay - Aden - Suez Sea Post Office service was introduced in 1868 to speed the delivery of mails to and from India. It was operated by the Peninsular & Oriental Steam Navigation Company on their steamer service from Suez to Bombay, via Aden. The sorting of the mails in either direction was carried by up to six teams under the control of the Indian Post Office. An intermediate stop was made at Aden for the discharge and collection of mails to and from East Africa and the Arabian coast, as well as for refuelling the ships."

Yes, as Erik says it appears to have been posted in Poona on 4th March, sorted on board ship the next day in (or not far from) Bombay, carried to Aden and Suez, then forwarded to Germany where it was received by the Berlin post office on the 20th. I wonder how it was routed from Suez/Alexandria to Germany?

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Nigel

Q3 - I don't see anything to indicate AUGUST - the stamps are postmarked 18 OCtober, the SPO 19 OCtober.

Q4 yes, AU = August

Q6 - L - Lucknow?

Q7 - I think it is T A M as in STAMP

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Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: http://www.norphil.co.uk - also /catalog for our ecommerce site, blog.norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk and Ian_norvic on twitter

Thanks a lot for all the information; all the answers are very helpful .

Ben

question 4 : the location is Ootacamund

question 5 : I don't believe this place has anything to do with mount Everest. It is more likely situated in a big city like Calcutta or madras.

question 6 : "L" common type 19 cancel from Lahore. Lucknow was "O"

question 7 : this is a common handstamp : "stamped"

question 8 : that is very interesting, and of every stamps / covers shown, I think this is the most valuable.

Ben, as you want to take Indian region stamps seriously, you really should look at joining the India Study Circle, http://www.indiastudycircle.org/index.html. Once you join, you'll receive a CD archive of the Circle's journal, India Post. It contains a great deal of information about the Sea Post.

You do have some interesting stuff there, and I agree with all the answers you've been given.

In Question 3, the 'A' in the Sea Post cancellation would simply be a code letter identifying the clerk who used that particular implement - nothing to do with the date.

As Maalgard says, your Question 8 is a very curious item. I can't make out the place names on the cancellations, except for 'Nadia', which is a district in West Bengal, north of Calcutta/Kolkata. I can't imagine why British stamps were cancelled there, though. Can you make out any of the cancellation on the Indian stamp? The violet colour is unusual. I can also see 'Landour' written at the bottom. Landour was one of the hill stations, with Simla, the British administration used to move to during the (unbearably hot) Indian summer. What connection this has with the stamps and cancellations, I couldn't say.

Altogether, very odd!

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thanks for the further information. I will be considering joining the ISC.

The purple cancellation is proving extremely difficult to read - with the naked eye I can't make out more than a couple of letters. Along the outside the text reads "?......." where the ? looks almost certainly like a k (it might be a tilted y) which is nothing I can understand. In the centre there are two lines of text: the top line says "?ar." where the ? looks like an "P". Underneath it there is a J00. I'm guessing this item will have to remain an interesting curiosity .

Ben

Edit: Applied a few filters to some photos of the piece and have been able to decipher a few more letters! Speculatively it might read Kri?a...

Ben, this might be getting us a bit further forward. Google says that the main town of the Nadia district is Krishnapur, which could well fit with your cancel. The PAR would be PARCEL. That suggests to me that the unidentified place name is definitely in Nadia District, but how it all fits together is still a bit of a mystery.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

After playing around with the image further I can definitely see Krish and then the letters disappear so it seems likely that is a match!

As for the text in the middle; below the Par. I think the third character might be a non-roman symbol. Shaped like a 0 but at the bottom right hand corner, the letter makes a spiral (difficult to explain). Similar to how you would write an a, but with a clear gap between the tail and loop at the bottom right. Irrespective, it seems impossible to determine why there exists a mixture of postage

Ben

So we seem to have a block of British stamps cancelled at (I'd guess) a village post office near Krishnapur and an Indian stamp added and cancelled with the Krishnapur parcels cancellation. If only the dates were legible enough to show whether they belong together, or were unrelated to each other.

The use of the Queen Victoria Indian 2 Anna and the Edward VII British stamps isn't necessarily contradictory. You often found obsolete stamps still sitting around in even larger Indian post offices in earlier days.

And why has someone been practising writing 'Landour' on the piece as well?

If you decide to join the India Study Circle, and I hope you will, you should certainly send in a scan to the ISC journal, to ask for comments from the British Indian specialists. They might be able to make sense of it all.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Indeed. ,

I have this mixed franking QV and KEVII postcard to Germany, on offer here for $40 with "ADEN CAMP" and "Aden" transit cancels.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7524

The looks to be postmarked Bangaljhi P.O.

Bangalijhi P.O. seems to be the current spelling on the Internet.

Another question!

Does anyone know anything about the purple "Signals" cancellation on the following cover? Might it be referring to transport by railway?

Final question!

Airmail stickers: I have numerous different examples of airmail stickers on indian covers - would they hav3e been purchased in India and applied by the person sending the card?

Is there any reason as to why some covers sent from India to Britain have "par avion" french air mail labels?

Many, many thanks,

Ben

The "Signals" hand stamp refers to the Royal Signals Association of the British Army. "Royal Signals Association" seems to have been crossed out on the address.

A simplistic answer to "PAR AVION" could be that French was the official language of the UPU and this is an international letter.

Thanks; those answers make perfect sense,

Ben

The cover was posted from Kohat, in the Northwest Frontier Province, (now in Pakistan). Then, as now, there was ongoing unrest against the central government.

This is an OHMS cover, and the sender was probably on active service in Army signals at Kohat at the time the cover was sent.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

It certainly was an OHMS envelope - in fact a 105mm x 230mm cover as indicated by the S.E.5. in the upper left corner. But doesn't the fact that the "On His Majesty's Service" was covered by the stamps and airmail etiquette indicate that this is a "civilian" usage?

The crossing out of "Royal Signals Association" and part of the address, if done before entering the mails, would have made the letter basically undeliverable. There is something not quite right here.

Yes, if the letter had been on official business, the sender would have used Service stamps, of course. Private use of office stationery - not unheard of

I don't know if there's any significance to the rubber stamp showing 'Signals Association/Kohat Branch' and the address being the Royal Signals Association. I would have expected the rubber stamp to include the Royal prefix as well: there was plenty of room for it on the stamp.

As we don't know who deleted the Association name and street number, it's hard to read too much into it. It's also not unheard of for names and addresses to be deleted from covers, for privacy or other reasons, once the covers are sold.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

I don't think the cancellation has any significance, in that I have another cover to the same address on which the same line is crossed out so I assumed it might be privacy based. Having said that, I have another cover to the same address with the name left uncrossed. Albeit that cover is not to the Signals Association but rather to the editor of 'The "Wine"' which seemed to be ran from the same premise as the RSA concurrently. Interestingly the letter to "The Wine" was sent OHMS!




Ben

Interesting, Ben, and it looks as if the deletions in the addresses may have been a privacy issue.

Once again, though, the writers are using office stationery for personal use. If they had been proper OHMS covers, they would have used Service stamps, not ordinary stamps.

Pity the poor writer! I doubt that conditions at Kohat in 1935 would have been ideal for storing the crusted vintages

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

It is actually addressed to "The Wire" which turns out to be the official magazine of the Royal Signals. A nice small slice of British Army history in those three covers.

What a shame! I had visions of the Sigs gentleman reporting to the Editor on the keeping properties of hock on the Northwest Frontier

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Just recalled the constant, fruity refrain from Colonel Chinstrap in the Goon Show episode, The Shifting Sands of Waziristan, 'We'll have to drink our way out!'

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

"Here lies Colonel Chinstrap, drowned - from the inside."

Due to the very helpful answers receive so far I'm going to be slightly expanding my questions .

I am very much a novice with regards to identifying Indian State forgeries. Would anyone be able to help me identify if the following stamps from Alwar and Bamra are genuine, and if any are genuinely used.



This lot seem genuine, but the cancellation looks like CTO in my uneducated opinion. Insane number of very distinct colour variations though which makes me suspicious (of the stamps and/or the printing press)



The green seems to be printed on a different type of paper - forgery? Cancellations seem CTO again.



All seem genuine and CTO.



Once more, all seem genuine. The left hand one doesn't seem CTO?



Middle one is certainly forgery. CTO again.



Genuine and CTO?

Any help appreciated!

Ben

Ben, your Alwar all look quite OK. AFAIK, Alwar never did CTOs. Yours certainly aren't CTOs - just perfectly normal postal cancellations. Stampboards member Bill Lewis has a highly detailed thread running, with all you could ever want to know about Alwar here viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16831

Your Bamra appear to be all OK, with the exception of the 1 Anna which you picked up yourself. With the 1 Anna, note that the sure test is not the long central ornament - that occurs on the bottom row of the first setting of these stamps - but the Oriya (Indian) version of the value, directly below the ornament and above the English version of the value. In these types of forgeries, the forgers started with the ¼ Anna value, and didn't bother to change the Oriya version of the value, even though they did change the English. This means that your '1 Anna' stamp still shows '¼ Anna' in Oriya. I discussed these, and other Indian States forgeries in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13744

The India Study Circle has published an excellent Handbook on Bamra, which will allow you to plate your Bamra stamps to their individual positions on the sheet in one of the nine basic settings. The Handbook is out of print now, but I believe there are plans to make it (and other ISC Handbooks, including Alwar) available online to members.

As a very quick and dirty test for CTOs among the Indian States, just have a look at the prices for used in Gibbons. Bearing in mind that Bamra was a small State, which would have had pretty limited need for mail, you would expect the prices for used to be far higher than for mint. This is in fact the case in two other comparable States, Barwani and Duttia, which didn't produce CTOs. If the prices for used are similar to, or lower than, those for mint, stamps from one of these small States, it's pretty likely that the stamps are CTO.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thanks very much. I have been reading those two threads and the information within is incredibly detailed and helpful,

Ben

More postmark questions (and some might even be used abroad this time)!

The first; this stamp seems to be postmarked Thankot. I can only find a Thankot in Nepal. Though Indian stamps were used in Nepal, I can't find another mention of India used in Thankot. Have I missed something?
The second has a postmark along the lines of Elgin Road = is that the Elgin in Scotland or is there one in India?

Anyone able to read Postmark 3?
Postmark 4 ends H.M.S. - does that mean the stamp was sent on official mail or might it have been stamped at sea?

Anyone able to read Postmark 5 which reads something "* Camp"?

Many thanks, as always!

Ben

The latest book out on the Sea Post Offices is

The British Sea Post Offices in the East British Maritime Postal History Volume 4 by Edward Proud.

The first cover was on the ship Shannon arriving in Aden on the 10/3/1898.

The second cover was on the ship Oriental arriving Aden on 24/10/1901

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AUSTRALIA 2013 EXHIBITION - 10 to 15 MAY 2013 - http://www.australia2013.com

Ben, I'm afraid you're not going to retire on these.

The first is Pathankot - a town in the Punjab
Elgin Road - in Calcutta/Kolkata
The third is 'Stock Exchange', I think, and probably Bombay/Mumbai
The fourth is actually R.M.S. - 'Railway Mail Service' - cancelled on a train
The fifth beats me. There were all sorts of postmarks with 'Camp' in them, but that didn't come from groups of tents. One that crops up every now and then with an Indian States link is 'Wadhwan Camp', although I don't think your stamp is it.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Hi Ben, the "Camp" postmark appears to be DEVLALI CAMP, i.e. Deolali Camp.

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Nigel

That looks right, Nigel: Deolali, the convalescent camp for British troops in India, and source of the old English slang for 'crazy'

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

"Ben, I'm afraid you're not going to retire on these"

That's not the intention . I'm interested in understanding more than just the SG numbers of the stamps I have. That very often involves asking what might seem obvious questions like these, but, being only a beginner, the information you, and others, have provided is very helpful.

Thanks once more,

Ben

Ben, I hope you'll keep posting postmark questions. As someone once wisely remarked, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers

The field of British Indian postmarks must be up there with the most complex in the world. It's always fun to pit your wits against an obscure cancellation. Covers and cards from the period are still quite readily available, and they can provide some real puzzles for you to get your teeth into.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

On that note... some more postmark puzzlers which I just can't solve , albeit I'm pretty sure none are from abroad this time!


No idea what the "*set" is referring to nor any of the other numbers/letters - have not found anything similar, anywhere.



"*algutta" or is it Calcutta?



"M-6": somewhere in Madras area, can I go further with identifying it? An e-bay description (http://cgi.ebay.com/India--QV--1877--Rare--8%2FM-6%2F1--Cancelled--envelope_W0QQitemZ120544575284QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20100320?IMSfp=TL100320131006r27072)claims its a rare cancel, but I can't see why and it doesn't really help with identifying it.



Something ending "*naramiala"? I can't find anywhere with that or a similar ending in India.

Finally, is there any reason as to why postmarks from India can be found in such a large variety of colours? This is probably coincidental, based on my smallish cover sample, but are red postmarks for "registered", purple for parcels and oversized items and black for standard location based cancellations? I have no idea with regards to blue.

Many thanks as always!

A gradually improving postmark understander, Ben.

Hi Ben, I read this one as *HARAMTALA. I don't know if this helps or not.

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Nigel

Dharamtala, a suburb of Calcutta (Kolkata).

Ben, this one looks to me like a Railway Mail Service cancel, but I wouldn't like to go beyond that. (It's times like this one feels the passing of Ernie Oehme - he was the India Study Circle's resident expert on the workings of the Indian railway mails. He probably knew more about them than anyone before or since.)

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

A pretty sure bet that it's Calcutta, I'd say. The presence of those mysterious letters above the place name suggest some specialized function of the post office - most likely to be found in a large office like Calcutta.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

This cancel is part of the All-India series of 1873-84. The letters identify the Circle, and the numbers identify the post office within the circle. The numbers can be single, like yours 'M-6'; there can be two numbers, 'M-6 1', or even three numbers, 'M-6 1 1', identifying smaller and smaller post offices in the hierarchy, down from the head office of the circle. You're quite right that M is Madras; M-6 was probably a main office, directly below Madras in the hierarchy. The one offered on eBay is a couple of levels lower, and may well be scarce for all I know. (Of course, one has to take dealer's descriptions with a grain of salt ... sometimes )

Robson Lowe in his Encyclopedia of British Empire Postage Stamps said of the All-India Series, 'The system is ingenious and elastic. The obliterator has the merit of effecting a very thorough cancellation - indeed far too thorough in the view of the philatelist. It is difficult to regard it as other than inartistic and even hideous.' And who am I to argue with Robson Lowe?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Ben, you seem to have been a little lucky, or unlucky, depending on your point of view. Most postmarks were applied in black. You do find forwarding agents cachets applied over stamps in other colours - this may be what you're seeing. (The forwarding agents were based in the big cities, and would handle all sorts of business matters for residents living in remote areas, including buying and dispatching supplies to their clients, and handling their mail if local mail deliveries were a bit shaky.) Why not post some of your coloured cancels as well, so we can see?

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Thanks, all. The variety within the postmarks is pretty incredible. When I next post a lot of covers and questions (you knew it would be coming!) I'll post a variety of colours . Is the Robson-Lowe book on Early Indian Cancels worth buying? (though I suspect it might be quite difficult to get hold of - never found anyone with a copy for sale yet.

Ben

Some of the covers in this next lot of questions might be recognisable by a keen-eyed poster on this thread .

This is a very long set of questions, so I do apologise. The information received in answers, though, is very useful as I am gradually starting to understand a lot more of the context behind covers and letters and the very interesting postal history of the area.

Question 1! This cover was sent from Kothamangalam to Conoors. It seems to have passed by Kandukathan en-route. Would the label have been attached by the post office for some unknown reason, or would it be applied before sending; an instruction by the sender to mail via Kanadukathan?



Question 2: The Right hand cancellation is Calcutta GPO, whilst the left is something similar to "Je*re". Is the cancellation a Bombay-circle cancellation?



Question 3: The pentagonal cancellation is illegible, but seems quite unusual. Can such a cancellation be attributed to an area/function?



Question 4: What does the number after the registered stamp indicate? Is it the 185th letter posted registered through the post office?



Question 5: Is this a number 3, Bombay-circle postmark - the lines run the opposite direction to other stamps with this cancellation? Is there a reference other than Robson-Lowe for identifying which post offices numbers refer to?



Question 6! This cover has a "Too Late" cancellation on the reverse. Since its local mail, I'm unsure what its too late for. Was it sent too late to pass through the postal system that day? Seems unlikely, as its the only example of the stamp I have, and it seems unlikely that late posting would be such a rare occurence.



Question 7: Three postmarks, from three different places! Based on the dates, the cover was sent from Seekur to "Nu*" and passed through Ajmere. Any idea where place the 116 duplex cancellation was applied?



Question 8: Simple one, I think. Is this a Bengal area postmark?



Question 9: A lovely cancellation on the reverse of a cover which I can't make heads-or-tails of. Is it smudged texted around the side? - looks like it might say GPO on the base - but I can't read the top.



Question 10: The final question of a marathon series of questions . A type-9 duplex cancellation with a 9 within it - any idea on the location?



Many, many thanks for any answers to any or all of the questions,

Ben

Here's the list of books I commonly use when dealing with Indian cancels :

- Robson Lowe : The Encyclopedia of the British Empire Vol III - The Empire in Asia
- DR Martin : Numbers in Early Indian Cancellations 1855-1884 (a must have)
- Geoffrey Eibl-Kaye : The Bombay Postal Circle
- Jal Cooper : India used Abroad

Matt

I've already seen these covers somewhere, but where ...

Ben, it's a section of Volume III of his Enclyopaedia of British Empire Postage Stamps, 1775-1950. I have it in a Billigs Philatelic Handbook reprint series, Volume 39. It only list the locations of the Circle offices, like Madras, nothing below that level. I'm not sure if that's been covered in the India Study Circle India Post, but if it hasn't, there are members of the Circle who could identify individual offices, I'm sure.

Still this volume is quite useful for the India area. Worth considering, if you see a copy on offer cheaply.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu

Question 2 : Jeypore (Jaipur). The postmark is a Renouf type 8 : 13?
Question 3 : It is a sorting postmark, applied en-route to the final destination
Question 5 : Type 4e with reverse lines, maybe 34 "Dholeka"
Question 7 : 146 I would say "Paneeput". Via Ajmere, Seekur, another place (sorting cancel below Ajmere) and finally Nuwulghur.
Question 8 : Bengal circle type 7, B/1 Calcutta
Question 10 : Ajmere, most probably

Matt

Ben, this Maalgard's territory, not mine

However, Question 1: the label is a Registration label.
Question 3: Not uncommon - you find them regularly in the 1870-80 period. Here are a couple of examples, on covers from Kashmir (though that is purely incidental)

From Bombay:



and the front of the cover, or fragment



and from Rawalpindi



and the front of the cover



I have an example in red from Rawalpindi, on a cover from Kashmir too, but it's so smudged and faint, I thought the black one would be better.

Question 4: I suspect this a filing number applied by the recipient, not the Post Office.
Question 6: A whole range of instructional/explanatory markings was used. Here is a TRAIN LATE stamp on the back of my one and only Jind cover, going to Bombay



and the front



I don't know about the TOO LATE stamp, but I'd expect it was simply applied to explain why the letter was delivered the following day. The big cities in India had numerous daily deliveries. Your cover probably arrived too late for the last delivery that day.

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'First I'll steal all the money, then I'll kill everybody, and then I'll go away', Père Ubu