GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GlenStephens »

.
Can any of our experts take a stab at the plate number of this guy please?

Appears to have part of that white flaw after O?

Thanks in advance. :)


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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

Pretty sure this is from plate 10, the red MX cancellation is very scarce on this plate.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by admin »

.
Thanks for that .. sure hope you are correct re Plate #10 .. I have to fluke a decent plate once in a blue moon! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, saw Red MX on those are 1500 quid for nice copies in SG, so they can't be common, that is for sure. :D

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

Yes agree, so worth getting a second opinion I think to be sure.

Plate 7 is the only other candidate and is close, but to me isn't quite right.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by emason »

GB1840 wrote: 16 Jul 2021 01:10 Yes agree, so worth getting a second opinion I think to be sure.

Plate 7 is the only other candidate and is close, but to me isn't quite right.
Yes, I agree - plate 10.

The right hand 'F' is too central and too upright to be plate 7. Also the 'O' flaw is too well developed.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Many thanks to Bill as well. Well it looks like I got a scarcer one there. :)

Have loaded to my page.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by pertinax »

Sorry guys but it's plate 4.

Pretty much the first thing I notice with this stamp is the weak and ill-defined upper left edge of the design.

This is generally not a characteristic of plate 10, it's seen on earlier plates.


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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Global Administrator »

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Bummer ... so that ''O Flaw'' blob occurs on Plate 4 as well? Glen
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by pertinax »

Global Administrator wrote: 16 Jul 2021 19:50 .
Bummer ... so that ''O Flaw'' blob occurs on Plate 4 as well? Glen
Sorry I should have added: what looks like part of an O-flaw on this stamp, I think is really a small area of dry print that is not uncommonly seen around the letters of ONE PENNY or TWO PENCE.


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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Rigs »

pertinax wrote: 16 Jul 2021 19:57
Global Administrator wrote: 16 Jul 2021 19:50 .
Bummer ... so that ''O Flaw'' blob occurs on Plate 4 as well? Glen
Sorry I should have added: what looks like part of an O-flaw on this stamp, I think is really a small area of dry print that is not uncommonly seen around the letters of ONE PENNY or TWO PENCE.

Apologies - may I ask what ‘dry print’ means?
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by pertinax »

Rigs wrote: 16 Jul 2021 20:01
Apologies - may I ask what ‘dry print’ means?
In GB LE issues dry print is an area that is unprinted when it should be printed, assumed caused by either too much ink being wiped away from the plate, or from the ink slightly receding due to its viscosity.

Here is an extreme example on a 2d blue, at the end of POSTAGE at the top:


dry.print.jpg

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Rigs »

pertinax wrote: 16 Jul 2021 20:28
Rigs wrote: 16 Jul 2021 20:01
Apologies - may I ask what ‘dry print’ means?
In GB LE issues dry print is an area that is unprinted when it should be printed, assumed caused by either too much ink being wiped away from the plate, or from the ink slightly receding due to its viscosity.

Here is an extreme example on a 2d blue, at the end of POSTAGE at the top:



Image


Scott
No worries.

Thanks for supplying that example.

My understanding prior to this was ‘dry print’ being about the paper.

I.e. wet print being about the image applied to dampened paper, and dry print applied to dry.

Also, I find it a little peculiar in your example how the dry print area is so well defined as a rectangle?
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by pertinax »

Rigs wrote: 16 Jul 2021 20:38
pertinax wrote: 16 Jul 2021 20:28
Rigs wrote: 16 Jul 2021 20:01
Apologies - may I ask what ‘dry print’ means?
In GB LE issues dry print is an area that is unprinted when it should be printed, assumed caused by either too much ink being wiped away from the plate, or from the ink slightly receding due to its viscosity.

Here is an extreme example on a 2d blue, at the end of POSTAGE at the top:



Image


Scott
No worries.

Thanks for supplying that example.

My understanding prior to this was ‘dry print’ being about the paper.

I.e. wet print being about the image applied to dampened paper, and dry print applied to dry.

Also, I find it a little peculiar in your example how the dry print area is so well defined as a rectangle?

Rigs, I put 'in GB LE' in my comment because I'm aware this term might mean something else in other philatelic areas.


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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by a_taylor15 »

Good morning Members,

I am a new member to this forum. I started reading about the ‘Black Penny’ last week, and thought it would be brilliant to own a part of British Stamp History.

I’ve never owned stamps before, however, I decided to purchase two ‘Black Penny’ stamps on impulse.

I understand experts in the field can identify the ‘plate’ of a particular stamp. I was therefore wondering if anyone could help identify the ‘plates’?

I appreciate the value of stamps depends on the timing, grading and demand.

Nevertheless, I was wondering if someone could let me know if I paid in excess of the current market value for the stamps online (just curiosity, as looking forward to holding onto them).

Stamp (SI) - £155
Stamp (TK) - £123

Thank you in advance for any information or advice, greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Adam


02542B90-C907-4F4B-B22B-9513C2C0E446.jpeg
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EC16E23B-4246-4C6F-8EAC-2D74B8290A95.jpeg
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Global Administrator »

.

Your FIRST post must be in ''Roll Call'' please. Welcome to stamp collecting. :)

I'll leave the plate numbers to others, but the TK appears to have extensive thinning, (and heavy bleaching too from that scan?) in which case 123 quid seems wildly excessive to me.

Thins and tears etc greatly affect value on these oldies. :!: 8-)

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by a_taylor15 »

Thanks Admin,
I have posted on the Roll Call, apologies.
Thanks for your comments on TK.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by emason »

a_taylor15 wrote: 17 Jul 2021 19:57 I was therefore wondering if anyone could help identify the ‘plates’?
I think 'S-I' is from plate 1b, and 'S-K' is from plate 5.
Best wishes,
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB 789 »

a_taylor15 wrote: 17 Jul 2021 19:57 Good morning Members,

I am a new member to this forum. I started reading about the ‘Black Penny’ last week, and thought it would be brilliant to own a part of British Stamp History.

I’ve never owned stamps before, however, I decided to purchase two ‘Black Penny’ stamps on impulse.

I understand experts in the field can identify the ‘plate’ of a particular stamp. I was therefore wondering if anyone could help identify the ‘plates’?

I appreciate the value of stamps depends on the timing, grading and demand.

Nevertheless, I was wondering if someone could let me know if I paid in excess of the current market value for the stamps online (just curiosity, as looking forward to holding onto them).

Stamp (SI) - £155
Stamp (TK) - £123

Thank you in advance for any information or advice, greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Adam


Image.Image.Image.Image
Maybe you did overpay a bit for these, for the commonest plates a decent 4 margin example should cost about £80-120 so you aren’t far away from those prices. Also, what better stamps to get for your first stamps in your collection. If it sets you up on a lifetime of fun in philately then I’d say this is money very well spent.

I would recommend trying to get a 1d black on cover too as it would go well with these two examples on the front page of your collection. You will easily be able to get a decent example for less than £150 (there are loads to purchase on eBay for example). These covers will also increase in value significantly more than just the stamps by themselves.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by a_taylor15 »

Thanks everyone for your comments, really appreciate your expertise.

I was wondering if anyone else could let me know their thoughts on the plating of the stamps?

Thanks, Adam
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

Adam

Bill had responded with these as being TK plate 5 and SI plate 1b, and I would agree.

regards

Kevin
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by a_taylor15 »

Many thanks Bill and Kevin for your help!
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Darklord »

Hi,

I am new on this forum and I am curious to learn more about Penny Blacks.
I have a Penny Black stamp and could not figure out the plate number.
Please help.

Thanks!
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

Plate 7 I believe.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Darklord »

GB1840 wrote: 06 Aug 2021 00:35 Plate 7 I believe.
Thank you ! any idea about its catalogue number ?
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

This would be AS46 in the new QV specialised SG catalogue which is what I use.

Regards

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Darklord »

GB1840 wrote: 06 Aug 2021 02:33 This would be AS46 in the new QV specialised SG catalogue which is what I use.

Regards

Kevin
Thanks! I checked the internet, AS46 corresponds to SG-2!
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GB 1840 “Penny Blacks” - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Markfr1 »

Hi, just bought the following three stamps. One 1d red and two 1d blacks. The two penny blacks where sold as TI is plate 4 and HI is plate 1b. Just hoping some kind person can confirm the plate numbers and plate the penny red DL please

B4E904C0-F066-4A18-8783-2E864635B473.jpeg


37B538F0-8CF1-43B1-BDEC-EB44381E4AFD.jpeg

0460DAC0-2939-4E5C-9614-69FBF10697C5.jpeg


Thanks in advance

Mark
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Re: GB 1840 “Penny Blacks” - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by pertinax »

Markfr1 wrote: 13 Aug 2021 07:31 Hi, just bought the following three stamps. One 1d red and two 1d blacks. The two penny blacks where sold as TI is plate 4 and HI is plate 1b. Just hoping some kind person can confirm the plate numbers and plate the penny red DL please

Mark
The 1d blacks are correctly plated.

The 1d red is from plate 40.


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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Markfr1 »

Thanks Scott, the information is very much appreciated

Mark
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Plate 11.jpg





Can one of our experts confirm this is plate 11. This is the best scan I have.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by pertinax »

Derbyboi2 wrote: 21 Aug 2021 22:52 Image






Can one of our experts confirm this is plate 11. This is the best scan I have.
Plate 11 appears to be right for it.

I could be certain if a crisp image was provided.

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

.
Thanks.

I am looking at 1a-11 set with full margins with both red and black Maltese crosses which are part of what looks to be an excellent GB collection. It also has the 1/2d line engraved complete in mint singles to plate 20 (which is a pair) and includes 9.

There are also some cracking mint 1d, 2d and 1 1/2d mint strips and pairs with plates and shades. All plates of the 6d 10d and 1/- embossed are represented all cut square with about 90% -100% margins.

Both £1 brown lilacs a £5 etc etc with about 20 cape triangles and other Commonwealth. It is said to have been untouched for 40/50 years.

I will try and get a High Res scan of all the 1d Blacks and 1840 2d blues,
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Here is a better scan of what is said to be plate 1a. This is typical of the quality.



1840 1a (2).jpg
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by pertinax »

Are you saying there's a 1d black set 1a to 11 cancelled in black, and another set cancelled in red?

I assume you realise a plate 11 1d black cancelled with red MX previously had a SG of £40,000?

It's probably gone down a bit in the latest specialised, but I don't have one with me atm.


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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Sorry Scott

To make it clear the set is mainly cancelled in red MX only Plate 11 is in Black. My error for not being specific.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Madrick »

Hello,
I would like to know more about this Penny Black please.
IMG_20210906_142924.jpg
Many thanks
Rick
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by emason »

Looks like plate 4 to me.
Best wishes,
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Madrick »

Thank you, much appreciated
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Wentworth »

Hello, I was wondering about the plate of my penny black ‘G-B’ with a smudged red/pinkish Maltese cross? The bottom edge ‘one penny & B’ seem to be quite blurry, is this a printing error or something worse?!
Many thanks for any suggestions
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by emason »

Your 1d black 'G-B' looks like plate 1a to me.
The stamp has 'basal shift' which means the bottom frame line is slightly 'doubled' and is common to all 'G-B' stamps from this plate. This occurs during plate manufacture and is not an error.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Wentworth »

emason wrote: 12 Sep 2021 22:54 Your 1d black 'G-B' looks like plate 1a to me
Thank you very much Bill for identifying both the plate number and the basal shift. Cheers!
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by ldpower101 »

hi everyone.Trying to work out how to plate these
100 (4).jpg
100 (3).jpg
-the O flaw seems to be present on the AF example which will narrow it down but my eyes are not good enough to pick up any other signs i should be looking for.Also attached a nice 1d on cover[attachment=0]Scan_20210622 (8)-
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by ViccyVFU »

ldpower101 wrote: 25 Sep 2021 16:27 hi everyone.Trying to work out how to plate theseImageImage-the O flaw seems to be present on the AF example which will narrow it down but my eyes are not good enough to pick up any other signs i should be looking for.Also attached a nice 1d on cover[attachment=0]Scan_20210622 (8)-
Image
SE plate 02
Vertical guideline to top right box, plus guideline entire length of top of stamp.
S high and dot in frame

AF plate 09
Vertical guideline top right box (which narrows it to about 6 of the 12 possibles in position AF :D )
A to left of middle, F to left of middle
Bottom frame line extends to right.


(There's more, but that should be enough!!)

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by ldpower101 »

thankyou,you have better eyesite than me for sure.Still looking for the guidelines you mention.Much appreciated
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by ViccyVFU »

ldpower101 wrote: 26 Sep 2021 06:58 thankyou,you have better eyesite than me for sure. Still looking for the guidelines you mention.Much appreciated
SE_p02_guide_lines.jpg
SE plate 02 (clearer to see on red, plate 02)

AF_09_bits.jpg
AF plate 09
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by ldpower101 »

awesome
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by GB1840 »

AF plate 9 is interesting as this lettering is one of a few only that was subject to the late provisional repair of early 1841, and can be found in black in state 2 where the 'O' flaw was obliterated, this occurred only in a few days printing when an emergency supply in black ink was needed, after the decision to change to red ink, and a plate repair took place just before this final printing in black. Your stamp is of course state 1. It is very scarce in the repaired state.
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emason
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by emason »

ldpower101 wrote: 25 Sep 2021 16:27 hi everyone.Trying to work out how to plate these-
the O flaw seems to be present on the AF example which will narrow it down but my eyes are not good enough to pick up any other signs i should be looking for.
Hello Idpower,
You might find this information on plating useful to you:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=77688
Best wishes,
Bill
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Rog
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Rog »

Derbyboi2 wrote: 21 Aug 2021 23:59 Here is a better scan of what is said to be plate 1a. This is typical of the quality.

Image
Is this a grey-black?

Some time ago someone posted an image with intense black, black and grey-black side by side, but I cannot find it again.
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emason
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by emason »

Rog wrote: 27 Sep 2021 02:15 Some time ago someone posted an image with intense black, black and grey-black side by side, but I cannot find it again.
Do you mean this?

Image


From here:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=55930
Best wishes,
Bill
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