U.S. Overrun Countries Issue - SC#909 Poland red over black?

[librarianc]

This 1943, 5c issue SC#909 POLAND from the US Overrun Countries issue caught my attention recently:



I am curious about whether any else sees this as red printing over black printing?



It is only listed in SCOTT as 909c with a dash in both value columns.

John A

[capetriangle]

librarianc

The answer is yes, in my opinion. As a former expert at The Philatelic Foundation in New York and as a consultant to them since 1979, my opinion might carry more weight than some others.

A few years ago these did not have catalogue status and when they were introduced relatively large numbers of them were discovered, hence the dashes in the value columns.

I have no opinion as to its value but I believe your close-up scan is pretty conclusive as a reverse printing.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney

[librarianc]

Thank you very much Richard.

I seem to recall reading about a few of the previously unlisted reverse printing being introduced a while back, and as you say value seemed to waver due to the number submitted.

If I recall correctly, SCOTT included a special article in one year's edition explaining some of the details, but I didn't see that article in the current 2012 US Specialized.

Thank you again for your quick reply.

John A

[Global Admin]

Thoughts on this one? Have a pane of these.

[capetriangle]

Glen

In my opinion definitely yes, you have the reversed printing - based on the difference where the black juts out below the red in the curls of the flag at bottom.

I will say, however, that the librarianc single, appears more distinctive since, again in my opinion, the red and black colors are more intense in his example than on your pane. This, of course, assumes all the scans are accurate representations of these relative differences.

Kindest regards, Richard

[GlenStephens]

Richard .. sadly I think you are corrrect.

"Sadly", as I had a block of 25 in a junk box I shipped yesterday, and allowed zero for it.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=33882

I meant to check why it was in a folder on its own, to see if it was this error, and forgot!

[capetriangle]

Glen

My commiserations.

The Boxue Du Junque looked to be pretty good from the photos. I counted 69 different photos - seems like quite a lot of work, all for A$125.

I still have the Spink Insider Magazine, together with the white envelope it came in, on my coffee table (first and last photos in the thread) and it will likely remain with me for the rest of my life, since my house has philatelic detritus all over, much worse than in the photos in your messiest stamp room photos thread. You will have to take my word for that, since I am far too embarrassed to post photos. However, I do regard myself as a clutterer rather than a hoarder and I do admire your ability to discard things.

Enough said, I think you will have an extremely happy buyer with the lot.

Kindest regards, Richard

[Global Admin]

Richard,

Yes, will teach me to pay more attention!

The Poland block is just laziness on my part .. was in a separate folder literally saying “don’t send to auction” and common sense should have told me to check out why the guy wrote that.

It was in a large box of stuff mailed to me ex the USA in December to purchase.

I basically allowed nothing for it as the regular stamps are 5c each retail. I did not know of this error until this thread to be honest.

The buyer of the box does not collect USA, so he asked if I wanted to list it up for sale on his behalf.

I'll suggest to him I list it as $250 and we split it 50/50, so he gets the rest of the box for free it it sells.

If they really are $50 or so pieces singly in the USA, even that is a deal for someone.

The block was even larger than 25 IIRC, (wider I think) I just took that scan above so as to get detail.

[capetriangle]

Glen

The error/variety only came to light a few years ago, so don't feel bad about not knowing about it. There was an initial flurry about them and then things seemed to die down, as is often.

I really am not sure about their current value.

Kindest regards, Richard

[Global Admin]

Richard as I am usually the first to say: "Knowledge Is Power".

In this case I had no idea such an error even existed, but the seller being USA based might have read it in Linn's when initially reported, and placed aside that block when first publicised, hence his note not to auction them yet.

The seller was a family member, so he might have passed, so that makes sense.

Anyway, if the buyer of box agrees with my plan, he gets his large carton free, and I make something on the deal. WIN-WIN, despite being lazy.

And many others learn of this error at the same time.

Another member found a $2,000 classic New Guinea 1930s "Waghi" flight cover in another of my Junque Boxes, only 5 recorded, and totally un-noticed by me -

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16025

He later asked me to sell it, and I made a few $100 on that one, so it is not all bad being busy and not looking too hard at these boxes!

Glen

[capetriangle]

Glen

I might have missed the New Guinea airmail cover also, although I would like to think that I would have put it aside for further study, since it has Martynside features - a manuscript inscription.

Good luck with your proposed deal with the buyer.

Kindest regards, Richard

[Global Admin]

Glen

In my opinion definitely yes, you have the reversed printing - based on the difference where the black juts out below the red in the curls of the flag at bottom.

I will say, however, that the librarianc single, appears more distinctive since, again in my opinion, the red and black colors are more intense in his example than on your pane. This, of course, assumes all the scans are accurate representations of these relative differences.

Kindest regards, Richard

Richard,

Agree that is the logical place to see the distinction of red over black.

The section where the flag joins pope lower left is the best test, as it is jet black at pole, and grey black where red covers it nearby.

On this one below the colour adjustment is contrasting, and shows it better.

The section where the flag joins pope lower left is the best test, as it is jet black at pole, and grey black where red covers it nearby.

Not a big deal item, $45-$65 each seems about normal, but a half sheet of it is not too bad a piece. The lucky buyer is happy to have me offer it for $200 as he has no interest in USA.

Just listed it up for sale here - https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=33947

[capetriangle]

Glen

Absolutely, that was my reasoning for confirming the error/variety.

Kindest regards, Richard

[kthrasher]

Opinion on the set I just found? Scanned at 600 DPI

[zimmie]

How about this 609 First Day Cover?

[Global Admin]

Folks these are VERY hard to pick apart and most "guesses" are wrong I'd say.

Neither of the above look correct to me.

From those small scans above totally, impossible to say I'd venture.

You need to offer a large, sharp scan off these areas below where it is clear whether the red ink is OVER the black - or not!

On the stamp below, it can clearly be shown that it is red printed OVER black.

[zimmie]

Is this large enough?

[librarianc]

Zimmie:

I'd say it is, but it's still a bit difficult to see from the scan. Make your scan 800 or 1200 dpi and then let Photobucket adjust it to the board standard. Your detail will be much crisper.

John A

[GlenStephens]

Zimmie a very blurry image you offer, but to my eyes the rope joining flag to pole appears to be the same colour as on the flag, hence is black over red.

To be the error there needs to be jet black and dark grey where shown. All dark grey is the regular issue.

The error is VERY hard to pick, hence the assumption of so many that they own it.

[zimmie]

1200 DPI - This is a good as my scanner gets. You might be able to judge blackness by the cancel line.

[Global Admin]

Zimmie - that looks a tad more convincing to me.

Let's see what capetriangle thinks.

[zimmie]

Keep in mind this stamp is on a 68+ year old cover that did not have a good home until I rescued it 11 years ago.

[GlenStephens]

Keep in mind this stamp is on a 68+ year old cover that did not have a good home until I rescued it 11 years ago.

I am sure that will have zero bearing on capetriangles view.

These are '10 cents a ton' type junk era covers unless they over red over black.

[zimmie]

I guess my point was - the condition of the stamp for this exam.

[capetriangle]

zimmie

Regarding the stamp on your FDC.

The basic problem is the overall faintness of the black printing.

From your last scan at 1200 DPI.

(i) at the extreme SW corner of the red on the flag, I can see no difference

(ii) at the extreme NW corner of the red on the flag there is what looks like a 1mm. (on my laptop screen) difference in black which then fades to similar

(iii) line of dashes above the red on the flag above "P" of "POLAND," there is one blacker dash with the ones above that one fading to similar

On balance, I do not think that you have the red over black reverse printing, just possibly two instances of slightly blacker patches in the normal printing.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney

[aethelwulf]

This image explains the error pretty well I'd say. Follow any line--the rope tying the flag to the pole, or the shading to represent ripples in the flag--and notice the change from jet-black to a much lighter shade. Not to mention the black becomes a bit "fuzzy", which one would expect with a layer of colour being applied over it. Mind you, nothing beats black, you can't hide it, but it certainly becomes obfuscated.

[zimmie]

Is this closer to what we are looking for?

[capetriangle]

zimmie

Yes

Kindest regards, Richard

[PGoncemore]

I have just discovered that I already had a reverse-printed version, and that a new one I received was normal. This is on a Luxembourg flag, which I notice has not yet come up here. My old 2005 Scott just has a dash for value...


Sorry, I have tried to make photobucket work as expected, but my inexperience with its new process, and my Windows 7 don't seem to like each other.. and yes I have tried to edit.

Paul

[librarianc]

Paul:

It appears that your image size setting for Photobucket is too large and the Stampboards software won't accept it.

Try this thread:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=44032&hilit=new+photobucket

or this one:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=43184&hilit=new+photobucket

to get the answer to showing your image.

John A