Forgeries of China Stamp 1980 8f "Year Of Monkey" T46?

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Forgeries of China Stamp 1980 8f "Year Of Monkey" T46?

Post by gxgougou »

Image
Is this a genuine copy of this stamp?

Name: Golden Monkey or Year of the Monkey or Gengshen Year

Item Number: T46
Scott Number: 1586
Michel Number: 1594
Issued Year: 1980
Type: Belongs to China New Spcial Stamp
Present price: HK$5,175
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Paid $400 for this copy of the 1980 T46 Year of Monkey with imprint in 2006.

Valued in 2008 at $700

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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by ozstamps »

Barry .. interesting .... . that appears to have the classic sharp pointy tooth line perf look a la the Aust KGV and States etc.

The example shown above it does not. Were there 2 perf types?
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by mrboggler »

BACK O' BOURKE wrote:Paid $400 for this copy of the 1980 T46 Year of Monkey with imprint in 2006.

Valued in 2008 at $700

Image
Interesting, re the perfs on the imprint - if you were to tear them down the middle there would, I think, be a different perf on the left side of the stamp to whats on the right side?
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

One of the most sought after stamps PR China. It's the first of ALL zodiac animal stamps on Planet Earth. When collectors got the rest of the 11 stamps of the 12 zodiac animal set in 1991 (1 animal each year), they had to, and still are, paying big price for the missing spot in the set.

The monkey has appreciated 50,000 times as of 2009, to about CNY4,000, China.

Watch out there are PLENTY of counterfeits out there. 9 out of 10 I see on eBay are obvious counterfeits. No kidding. The one shown by gxgougou appears to be a counterfeit, IMHO.
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by rodi »

These were my monkey's stamps, the first I paid 130 US$ in 2007, the second one 155 US$ in 2008; I sold the first one last year at 500 $.

Image

I usually don't sell my doubles but I don't like this stamp because I don't understand the reasons for its market value.

According with Yang catalogue these was the printed stamps for the "new commemorative issues" (T) in the year 1980:

T44 2.000.000
T44m 250.000
T45 2.500.000
T47 4.000.000
T48 5.000.000
T49 6.000.000
T50 1.000.000
T51 15.000.000
T52 1.500.000
T53 1.500.000
T54 1.000.000
T54m 250.000
T56 1.000.000

Monkey stamp (T46) was printed in 3.500.000 examples and now his market value is about 600-700$, while you can buy a "Lotus" sheet (T54m) at less than 200$.
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by rodi »

BACK O' BOURKE wrote:Paid $400 for this copy of the 1980 T46 Year of Monkey with imprint in 2006.

Valued in 2008 at $700

Image
Are you sure about this stamp? Not usual perforation on 3 sides (up, down and right)...
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by rodi »

BACK O' BOURKE wrote: The one shown by gxgougou appears to be a counterfeit, IMHO.
That stamp is one sold in jbull auction: http://www.jbull.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=16240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm quite sure that's original.
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by stampway »

Please note the "庚", it is the first Chinese character at the second column, the real one is not conjoint at the "广", the fake one is conjoint.

Image

I found an example on internet for BACK O' BOURKE showed that one with the interesting perfs, I can not find the explanation why the perfs is that shape.

Image

But just in case, according to the "textbook" said the the margin size on real one is 2cm, on fake one is 1.8cm.
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by COLIN »

Damn, once again I need to dig through my scratch box and have a closer look

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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by rodi »

stampway wrote:Please note the "庚", it is the first Chinese character at the second column, the real one is not conjoint at the "广", the fake one is conjoint.
I hope this could help; it's my stamp (the one on the right), shown above:

Image
stampway wrote:I can not find the explanation why the perfs is that shape.
Me too, never seen this kind of perfs (nor in originals, nor in forgeries).
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Image Image

L/H image from my stamp shown above...R/H image from ebay listing below, another case of buyer beware

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Re: What is this Chinese stamp wor

Post by tonyevans1 »

OK we now have 3 images from 3 different copies of this stamp and they all look quite different to me????? Which is genuine????



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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by rodi »

Probably this is the best i have ever seen

"PERF CUT ERROR" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: What is this Chinese stamp wor

Post by ozstamps »

tonyevans1 wrote:
OK we now have 3 images from 3 different copies of this stamp and they all look quite different to me????? Which is genuine????

Tony
I am sure glad I do not primarily deal in this area. :lol:

Aren't there also superb forgeries out there too, of the 1960s Mei Lang Fang opera mini sheet, that is also worth $US1000s apiece when genuine.

If Back of Bourke has a genuine one, the others can be readily dismissed by not having the unusually large perf holes, (unless there were 2 printers?) but looking at my stock of China for that era can't see others that have those most unusual pointy end perf tips.
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Below is the scan from the John Bull Auction any thoughts?

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Re: What is this Chinese stamp wor

Post by rodi »

ozstamps wrote: Aren't there also superb forgeries out there too, of the 1960s Mei Lang Fang opera mini sheet, that is also worth $US1000s apiece when genuine.
Over 10.000 US$..... , doubled in a year
http://www.hosane.com/productlist.asp?auctionid=S09123&catalogcode=038501&page=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ozstamps wrote:If Back of Bourke has a genuine one, the others can be readily dismissed by not having the unusually large perf holes, (unless there were 2 printers?) but looking at my stock of China for that era can't see others that have those most unusual pointy end perf tips.
The problem that i see is that only 3 sides have large (and completely different from normal stamps) perfs; the left side has a normal perf.
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by rodi »

BACK O' BOURKE wrote:Below is the scan from the John Bull Auction any thoughts?

Image
That scan has a too low resolution; simply, i can't believe that they don't recognize a forgery (they are one of the three most important auction house for China stamps).
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Glen, Beijing Postage Stamp Printing Works is the only printer of the T46 listed.

Issue date: Feb.15, 1980

Perforation: 11.5

Sheet composition: 8x10=80

Size of stamp: 26x31mm

Designer: Jiang Weijie

Process: Engraving and photogravure Gummed

rodi, you would think that John Bull has it right.
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by rodi »

BACK O' BOURKE wrote: rodi, you would think that John Bull has it right.
I can't value that stamp from that scan, so i assume, knowing that auction house, that PROBABLY it's original.

Surely, if i wanted to put a bid, i asked for an higher resolution scan.
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp wor

Post by ozstamps »

rodi wrote:
ozstamps wrote:If Back of Bourke has a genuine one, the others can be readily dismissed by not having the unusually large perf holes, (unless there were 2 printers?) but looking at my stock of China for that era can't see others that have those most unusual pointy end perf tips.
The problem that i see is that only 3 sides have large (and completely different from normal stamps) perfs; the left side has a normal perf.
Yes, that was my point.

It looked re-perforated to me at first glance.

Someone has re-perfed 3 sides with a pin a little larger than the printer used, as can be clearly seen if you measure the width of forged perf holes at base compared to the regular (untampered with) vertical perfs.

The perfs tip ends along base are hence "wrong" and are NOT a mass of soft paper fibres, as they will appear if 2 stamps were torn apaprt.

If Barry bought it on ebay his money is gone I'd guess?
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by BACK O BOURKE »

Glen, I think you re right as to my stamp being re-perforated, below is a top marginal copy looks OK.
The re-perforated stamp was purchased from a major auction house in China, I will make contact with them on the re-perforated stamp.

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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by jugoslavija_post »

I love that face the monkey is making. :P 8)
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by gxgougou »

rodi wrote:Probably this is the best i have ever seen

"PERF CUT ERROR" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Image
There is no doubt that it is the best, it is a four block piece, has the quantity advantages. :lol:
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by gxgougou »

jugoslavija_post wrote:I love that face the monkey is making. :P 8)
Yeah... Monkey is really a lovely animal, which always has a funny facial expression, and can bring us happiness. Besides all other aspects, maybe that's another reason that make this stamp so popular.
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp worth?

Post by rodi »

BACK O' BOURKE wrote:Glen, I think you re right as to my stamp being re-perforated, below is a top marginal copy looks OK.

The re-perforated stamp was purchased from a major auction house in China, I will make contact with them on the re-perforated stamp.
Unbelievable..., I saw where you bought it and I hope they have a good justification for this.
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Help with this China T46 Red Monkey

Post by alanchong »

Hi all, I bought this many years ago from a dealer in Hong Kong during my business trip.

Image

After reading so much about this stamp and the forgeries. I am worried that this stamp is a bogus. I have a few questions and hope the experienced members share their views and opinions.

1. Is this stamp genuine?
2. I can figure out it is postmarked JiangSi City. Is this postmark forged?
3. What would be the asking price if I will to sell this?

Please input your thought about this stamp. Your input and help will be very much appreciated from a newbie like me. :)

Have a good day.
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Re: Help with this China T46 Red Monkey

Post by Barry_E »

Hmmm.

no black line exists on the ear lobe.
yours has more red on the nose and thumb.
the (1-1) is slightly different in the bracket area.

Thats just stamps, The thing that shocked me is the usage of the word

'Newbie'

Why would a newbie collector / investor, purchase a + thousand dollar stamp and prehaps the most sought after current China issue from a dealer in Hong Kong while away on a buisness trip unless that trip was infact stamp related, thus making the word newbie redundant.

Im a newbie collector, I can see something here is not really true.
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Re: Help with this China T46 Red Monkey

Post by doug2222usa »

Is it normal/genuine to have so much white on the perf tips?

I have a copy too; after this thread has run its course, I'll post mine for discussion.
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Re: Help with this China T46 Red Monkey

Post by rodi »

Here you can find some original copies of this stamp:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16455
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Re: What is this Chinese stamp wor

Post by Global Administrator »

tonyevans1 wrote:
OK we now have 3 images from 3 different copies of this stamp and they all look quite different to me????? Which is genuine????

Tony
Yes be helpful for a more precise visual guide folks!
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Re: Forgeries of China Stamp 1980 8f "Year Of Monkey" T46?

Post by Allanswood »

I found a piece of info that says for the original stamp, hold it up angled to the light (or use a torch) and look for the raised ridges on the lettering, the monkeys hair lines etc as the ink will show as if it was recess printed. You could probably feel it as well.

With the light on an angle the ridging is quite noticable. On a fake it is dead flat printing.

The fakes seem to be photo/litho prints taken of real stamps. That't the dud's are so close they are copies.

The other test is the paper they are printed on.

The other tit-bit is that with all the genuine I can view, they do seem to have that white area, on the perf tips, from where the perfs have been seperated from the surrounding stamps.
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1980 8f Red "Monkey" stamp from China, line across corner?

Post by gugusg »

Hello,

What means this diagonal line ?

Image

Sorry for the image, but this is not mine :)

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Re: Red Monkey from China : a line in the value ?

Post by Goodwin »

It usually means it's a specimen. But you might want to have a look at this thread:

http://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=35017&p=3221717

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Re: Red Monkey from China : a line in the value ?

Post by Allanswood »

I think you'll find it means it a fake. Not a 'specimen'. :shock:
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Re: Red Monkey from China : a line in the value ?

Post by allanmq »

Hi

The diagonal line through the value probaly indicates it was sourced from the Cultural Revolution Replica pack.

All the colourfull harder to obtain stamps from that period were presented in a special replica pack where all the stamps had this diagonal line to ensure they were easily identified as replicas.

Glen had a nice example of this replica pack for sale recently.

I have seen bunny bait on ebay where a fake cancel has been applied so as to obscure this diagonal line.

With the prices of some of these Chinese Cultural Revolution stamps in the thousands these packs seem to be increasingly attractive .

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Re: Red Monkey from China : a line in the value ?

Post by GlenStephens »

Image

Image
Yes, I sell these folders for a modest price, that have all the China Cultural Revolution stamp issues in them all with the black diagonal line across the corner as shown.

So that hopefully down the track no-one will be fooled into thinking they are genuine. But they are handy gap-fillers for a China collection, as the genuines cost $100,000s to buy!

One person bought a set and affixed them to covers and "parcel pieces" and added fake cancels across the thin line, so they appeared postally used and offered them on ebay etc at many 100s of times more than he paid me. :twisted:

The "All China is Red" stamp in this set is alone getting massive prices these days, so the fakers are grinning.

This block 4 of them sold recently for $US816,000 -

https://www.glenstephens.com/snfebruary13.html
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Re: Red "Monkey" stamp from China, line across corner of sta

Post by Allanswood »

I didn't see the Monkey stamp in the pack?
And we have had a member offering them as 'specimen's'.
Does the reprint have the same printing characteristics as the original?

I can't get into Photobucket at work, but have a look at this item on ebay: 230935267567

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Stamps-China-Monkey-Chinese-zodia ... 35c4d088ef

4hrs to go, sitting on 1c. Has the line across the value.
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Re: Red "Monkey" stamp from China, line across corner of sta

Post by Stewie1980 »

Allanswood wrote:
I can't get into Photobucket at work, but have a look at this item on ebay: 230935267567

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Stamps-China-Monkey-Chinese-zodia ... 35c4d088ef

4hrs to go, sitting on 1c. Has the line across the value.
That's a reprint! The original stamp is in a much better quality.
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Re: Red Monkey from China : a line in the value ?

Post by Global Administrator »

Folks, as has been posted many times before MOST of the China "monkey" stamps offered on ebay are reprints or outright forgeries.

Buying this stamp on ebay with no certificate is sheer lunacy.

DO read up the earlier expert advice re outright fakes of this stamp -

Goodwin wrote:It usually means it's a specimen. But you might want to have a look at this thread:

http://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=35017&p=3221717
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Re: Red "Monkey" stamp from China, line across corner of sta

Post by aethelwulf »

The Monkey stamp was issued 1980.

The Cultural Revolution was a decade spanning the 60s and 70s...1965-75, or 1967-77? So the Monkey is past the "cult" period.
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Re: 1980 8f Red "Monkey" stamp from China, line across corne

Post by librarianc »

Possibly unrelated.............but the line through the corner of the stamp is also what many catalogue publishers do to their full colour (and often full size) illustrations, so they can't be easily copied, printed and sold as legitimate issues.

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Re: 1980 8f Red "Monkey" stamp from China, line across corne

Post by allanmq »

Hi
I have seen these packs that include other stamps including the "Year of the Monkey" even though they were (as identified above) issued much later.
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Re: 1980 8f Red "Monkey" stamp from China, line across corne

Post by David Smitham »

Greetings from New Zealand

Mowbrays do have a good selection of uhm China - Cultural Revolution era stamps in their current (March 2013) postal stamp auction catalogue. These can be accessed on line at http://www.mowbraycollectables.co.nz

Whilst there is no Year of the Monkey (original or reprint) on offer, all the Chinese stamps are originals. Worth while having a look at if for no other reason than to see them.

David
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Re: Forgeries of China Stamp 1980 8f "Year Of Monkey" T46?

Post by Global Administrator »

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Thoughts on this China 1980 8f Red "Year Of The Monkey" stamp?
The most well known and glamor post war stamp from China, and missing from near all collections.

It is stated to be the first of ALL zodiac animal stamps ever issued, and for all those who collect "Chinese New Year" stamps from China this is the KEY of course.

Due to the huge prices in recent times, it has been widely faked of course.

MOST copies sold on ebay are forgeries that much is well known, and ebay prices are about half the real world Auction prices as at least there you are buying verified examples.

The genuine has a strong golden metallic ink sheen, and the black shading is in recess/engraved heavily raised print - both are things the forgers find can't be duplicated.

The fakes I have seen are 100% flat printed, and really only novices could ever get fooled. Thank goodness. :idea:

Also the Chinese characters top left are not correct on a good % of the fakes of this legendary "Red Monkey" stamp.

I bought this today in a collection of China circa 1980 formed from buying New issues from Max Stern at that time. Luckily, the was among it and probably cost him 50c as a new issue. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Can members here confirm it is GENUINE ... the raised recess printing, and provenance puts it beyond doubt to me at least.

Secondly can members give me guidance for REAL WORLD prices these sell for today? (i.e. not the ebay dreamer gallery of fakers, and clueless dumbclucks!)

Real Auctions in Hong Kong are bound to have had genuine copies offered in recent times? Or reputable dealers will have it on selling lists. All I need is the real world price please.

SG Cat 2968 - Cat £1,600.
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Re: Forgeries of China Stamp 1980 8f "Year Of Monkey" T46?

Post by aethelwulf »

Interasia's last sale had a good number of Monkey singles that went for $13,800HKD each (that's with 15% B.P., so $12,000 hammer). That sale was 30th June, who knows what's happened in the past 5 months. :lol:

Spink's last sale in HK a few weeks ago had almost no PRC stamps -- none of the 'hot' M/S or Cultural Revolution material. Most odd.
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Re: Forgeries of China Stamp 1980 8f "Year Of Monkey" T46?

Post by Global Administrator »

Thanks Jeremy .. at least from Interasia, buyers know they are getting the real deal. :)

Those prices they got convert to about $A2,000 each.

Interasia had 7 singles in a row get that same price. And then some pairs that got double those prices.

Mine had a trace of the black ink offsetting on gum, but Interasia say that is normal, and it did not make any difference whatever to their price obtained!

http://www.interasia-auctions.com/cgi-bin/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=35&lot=2365&lang=1

The only 2 clearly genuine copies I could see on ebay are about $US2,000 apiece

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/310737167421

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/141051797198

So these seem pretty solid stamps still. :idea:
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Re: Forgeries of China Stamp 1980 8f "Year Of Monkey" T46?

Post by aethelwulf »

Global Administrator wrote:They had 7 singles in a row get that same price.

Mine had a trace of the black ink offsetting on gum, but Interasia say that is normal, and it did not make any difference to their price obtained!
All the auction catalogues I've seen from any firm selling the Monkey stamps mentions the black offset on the gum, they must be mentioning it "for the record" as its obviously "standard feature" for the issue...and can work as a mark of authenticity then--if you have an example without black offset, could be a sign its a fake.

I sometimes wonder what's going on with the market for PRC material...it was either the last sale or the one before, I was following via online...apparently for the PRC material there ended up being 2 bidders in the room buying every lot, and when there were 6 or a dozen copies of something (ie. the 1970s M/S), it became a taking-turns game of "A gets the first one, B gets the second one".

One wonders how rigged a game market for modern material is, if the rest of the room just sits there and doesn't bother jumping in to grab anything...are the estimates set high and it scares everyone off, and these 2 buyers are making sure everything sells, to keep prices afloat?

Not to suggest Interasia is doing anything underhanded, they're just offering the material up, its the strange interaction between the buyers that made me curious (and having only the audio of the auctioneer left room for curiosity, as it sounded like the sale was a bit of a circus).
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Re: Forgeries of China Stamp 1980 8f "Year Of Monkey" T46?

Post by Global Administrator »

aethelwulf wrote: ... are the estimates set high and it scares everyone off
Well in this sale for the long conga line of "Red Monkey" singles, each estimate was $HK8000-$HK10,000" and all sold at $HK13,800 so the estimates were way too low it seems clear! :lol:

I think I'll list this on my rarity page for $A1,850 or about $US1,675, which is way under HK auction prices, and way under ebay offerings of the genuine stamp.

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Re: Help with this China T46 Red Monkey

Post by GlenStephens »

alanchong wrote:
Hi all, I bought this many years ago from a dealer in Hong Kong during my business trip.

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After reading so much about this stamp and the forgeries. I am worried that this stamp is a bogus. I have a few questions and hope the experienced members share their views and opinions.

1. Is this stamp genuine?
2. I can figure out it is postmarked JiangSi City. Is this postmark forged?

Allan bad news for you I think - the genuines, as posted above were printed with a shiny black RECESS/ENGRAVED ink.

Hence all black lines in design are solid and RAISED.

You can run your fingernail over the "8" and readily feel the ridges.

There are many types of fakes on ebay I saw, when looking last night. ALL the black areas on them appear to be flat printing i.e. photogravure.

So the large "8" is a great pointer. If the lines of shading in there are not parallel and sharp and RAISED and glossy - you have a FAKE. :idea:

Another great guide are the tiny numbers in each lower corner.

Again they must be SOLID, raised and glossy - and in unbroken letters.

Photogravure printing is done using small colour dots, NOT solid lines, and that is the key. Fakers CANNOT get a raised, solid black glossy shiny line like we have here below.
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