Queensland QV sideface specimen stamps - real?

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jeremy29
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Queensland QV sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by jeremy29 »

This lot was sold on Ebay recently. It was a number of Queensland specimen handstamps:

Image

A higher resolution image can be seen here: https://jeremy29.smugmug.com/Queensland-Philately/For-stampbo ... N&lb=1&s=O

I have a few questions, based on the table produced by Geoffrey Adams showing the different Specimen types, "Queensland: beyond the Standard catalogue", Stamp Monthly, 1982, p.47. I have reproduced and updated this table for the 1st sidefaces here: https://queensland1sideface.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/specimen-handstamps.html and the 2nd sidefaces (still a work in progress) here: https://queensland2sideface.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/queensland-2nd-sideface-specimen.html

1st Sideface
In the Ebay lot on row 4 second from the right is a 1st sideface 1d with a horizontal red specimen handstamp. This handstamp is not listed by Adams as being seen on any of the 1st sidefaces. Also it appears to be a plate proof (unless it was a perforate copy cut to shape) and I have not seen a 1st sideface imperforate stamp with a specimen handstamp before. On the bottom row are two more examples of the handstamp on 1st sideface perforated stamps, the 4d yellow and 6d green, again not listed y Adams. Are these genuine? Have any of you got or seen similar examples?

2nd Sideface
A small horizontal specimen handstamp is known on 2nd sidefaces. According to Adams it is seen on the 2 shilling and 1 shilling issues but not in red. The only one I have seen is the 2 shilling in mauve here: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-eJ4C-18vLWs/T-65GGb_SlI/AAAAAAAATq ... 20-001.jpg This ebay lot has examples on the 1d, 2d, 3d, 4d, 6d and 2shilling! Again are they genuine? Has anyone seen these before?

3rd Sideface.
2 examples in this Ebay lot. a 1d with the specimen handstamp upside down in black ink and the 2d the right way around also in black ink. Does anyone have similar examples?

The largest Queensland specimen sale was probably the McCredie collection sold a few years back by Millennium auctions. The catalog, for anyone who wants to compare them to this Ebay lot is here: https://www.millenniumauctions.com.au/search.php3?showcategor ... auction=50

Lot no 128, 2nd sideface 3d colour trials does have a small horizontal handstamp, but in black, as does lot no 130, with the specimen handstamp being on the 3rd sideface issues.

I haven't commented on the Chalons in this Ebay lot as I don't know anything about them, but it appears to be the same handstamp.

Thanks

Jeremy

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by AndrewWalker »

Jeremy, are you heading down to Melbourne? It may be worth bringing a copy
for Ken S to look at, hopefully he has covered some of these in his book.

Also check the Manning sale http://www.prestigephilately.com/catbylot.php?auctionnum=146

and the Griffiths sale
http://www.spink.com/auction.aspx?id=12043

both have a range of Queensland specimens.

Andrew

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by Global Administrator »

They all look fine to me.
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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by jeremy29 »

AndrewWalker wrote:Jeremy, are you heading down to Melbourne? It may be worth bringing a copy
for Ken S to look at, hopefully he has covered some of these in his book.

Also check the Manning sale https://www.prestigephilately.com/catbylot.php?auctionnum=146

and the Griffiths sale
https://www.spink.com/auction.aspx?id=12043

both have a range of Queensland specimens.

Andrew
Hi Andrew

I can't make Melbourne unfortunately. Neither Manning, Griffiths or anyone else has these specimen handstamps (Griffiths does however have some for the 3rd sideface - lot 1345) https://www.spink.com/auction.aspx?id=12043 and that is why it is so intriguing. There are similar ones, such as these (Status Stamps lot no 84 https://www.statusint.com/result.php?id=52)

Image

in black and red on the 3rd sideface, but none for the first or second sideface. I would have thought that Adams' list was comprehensive and that is why I am surprised they are not mentioned.

There is also this lot of blocks of 4 in Prestige Philately (auction 173 lot 469) but again 3rd sideface only https://www.stampboards.com/images/prestigephilately/cat_view ... 173&lim=20. It is now in my collection :-). The size is 3 mm x 21 mm. The third sideface horizontal examples are listed by Adams, in black only (except for a halfpenny proof in red) albeit the size is wrong as he gives it as 17 mm.

So it would appear, and I tend to agree with Glen, that these do appear genuine and that there is more work to be done before a complete list of the Queensland sideface specimens is arrived at. Hopefully Ken Scudder's book will throw more light on this :-)

Regards

Jeremy

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by AndrewWalker »

Jeremy I found this one in scans of the Ron Butler collection

Image

I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of types missing from Adam's list
that are very scarce, the recent auctions with NSW and Victoria specimens
had a lot of types where five or less examples were known! This one I've shown
before is also not on his list:

Image

It's just a matter of finding other examples from reputable sources.

Andrew

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by TimjDexter »

Nice lot. All the chalons, including the Ron Butler 2s are all imperf. I think they are all genuine and there are some other nice items. The 6d cancelled is nice and so is the 2s with complete ring cancel, you usually only get a quarter!

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by jeremy29 »

Tim I don't recall seeing the ring cancel before. Do you know more about it? Is it a specimen mark or something else?

Thanks

Jeremy

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by Global Administrator »

Jeremy - the small ring cancel was used extensively on the remainders of the Pink QV Stamp Duty "Long Toms to £500 etc.

As you say only on corners usually. FAR prettier than the horrid red cancels seen at top right below on this grotty page of Qld and Specimens I offered here -

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=34994 - the buyer as can be seen there cleaned it up a treat, and fond I'd overlooked an imperf 1d among it! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I have seen the same little ring cancel on postage stamps though.
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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by TimjDexter »

Image

Image

The ring cancel is much commoner on the chalons. Blocks of 4 are not too hard to find.

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by jeremy29 »

Thanks Guys, I will have to look out for them in future, although I am baffled as to why it would be on a 2 shilling 3rd / 4th sideface as they were never remaindered (to the best of my knowledge) or reprinted. Brusden White talks about this issue being cancelled to order, but on p. 57 of the Catalog lists specific date stamps being used so that can't be it.

Regards

Jeremy
Last edited by jeremy29 on 28 Apr 2013 11:40, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by jeremy29 »

PS, for the sake of completeness if anyone finds this post in years to come, there were two small horizontal specimen sideface examples in the Manning collection (but not in red), Prestige Philately auction no 143 lot no 1133 https://www.stampboards.com/images/prestigephilately/catlot.p ... side3&lim=

Image

Jeremy

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by Mark Houston »

AndrewWalker wrote:Jeremy I found this one in scans of the Ron Butler collection

Image

I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of types missing from Adam's list
that are very scarce, the recent auctions with NSW and Victoria specimens
had a lot of types where five or less examples were known! This one I've shown
before is also not on his list:

Ken Skudders book is probably published by now. I know he did research specimen types. Here' hoping.

Image

It's just a matter of finding other examples from reputable sources.

Andrew
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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by AndrewWalker »

Yes Mark, it was released at the Melbourne 2013 Expo just held,
and has a full chapter on the specimen types with lists and
colour pictures!

Anyone collecting these needs this book.

Andrew

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by jeremy29 »

My copy of Scudder is on order. Should get it next week. can't wait :-)

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by Mark Houston »

AndrewWalker wrote:Yes Mark, it was released at the Melbourne 2013 Expo just held,
and has a full chapter on the specimen types with lists and
colour pictures!

Anyone collecting these needs this book.

Andrew
Hi Andrew,
Was it published by the RPSV...any link to purchase would be appreciated.
Mark Houston

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by AndrewWalker »

Mark, it was by the RPSV, see this topic
http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=42951

Also here which has the same order form:
http://www.rpsv.org.au/2013/01/20/forthcoming-publications-2013/

Andrew

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by jeremy29 »

I got my copies today. What a fantastic book. A monumental effort. I can't wait to start studying it. Yes, the specimens are in there but they are a bit confusing as Scudder arranges them by specimen type rather than by the issues they appear on. In my 2 blogs I have arranged them by issue so it will take me a while - once I start - to check them and add any that I am missing

Jeremy

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by maxkirin »

Helo Members,

Not sure if this belongs here but am just curious about the stamps as below, if they look genuine or not. This was listed in ebay recently from a French Dealer.

Surprisingly, there were 6 stock pages and titled English Colony Stamps. This particular page happened to be in the 5th photo, so probably not many got to see it and went cheap ? am not sure.

The last two photos I scanned it after I received them today.

Photos as below.

Image

Image

Image

Max

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Re: Queensland sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by GlenStephens »

The imperf 1d Chalon looks to be a fake of some kind to me. Need a larger scan but a better than usual grade of fake it looks like.

The other trio I recall reading about once, but do not recall the story!
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Re: Queensland QV sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by maxkirin »

I will scan the photos bit enlarged soon; and I tried checking for WMK for the first one and seems there is none, or hard to see. So the first one might be a good fake as you mentioned.

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Re: Queensland QV sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by maxkirin »

Thanks for the prompt reply Glen,

Here are the large scans.

If someone could give me some idea if they are genuine stamps and or essay / proof? would be encouraging :D .

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Queensland QV sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by GlenStephens »

maxkirin wrote:I tried checking for WMK for the first one and seems there is none, or hard to see. So the first one might be a good fake as you mentioned.
Genuines will have a VERY clear Star Watermark. Cancel looks remotely kosher - close but not the real deal, and not oval as it needs to be.

The large scan clearly shows the 1d Chalon is a forged impression. Always load up large scans like this please, for this kind of query. No brainer when a good scan is loaded.

The other 3 I found on Jeremy's blog -

https://queensland1sideface.blogspot.com/2012/02/

Queensland First Sideface Essays - Waterlow and Sons

Waterlow and Sons produced a series of essays that were exhibited at the Paris International Exhibition of 1878 with the words Queensland and all showing a 2d value.

It is understood that the company submitted unsuccessfully for the 1879 Great Britain tender in support of a recommendation of the line-engraved process.

The Queensland Government was not involved in any stage with the commissioning or exhibiting of these essays and the Waterlow design bears no resemblance to the stamps that were eventually introduced in Queensland and for which the first plate - the one penny postage stamp - was completed in August 1878.


Glen
Image
Waterlow & Sons Ltd, London. 2d. Queensland stamp die proof in black on thin card (77x68mm). Seen at Spink Auction no 12043 lot no 1165. Ex Griffiths
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Re: Queensland QV sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by jeremy29 »

Beautiful items, and here is the full link to the other known copies
http://queensland1sideface.blogspot.com/2012/02/queensland-first-sideface-plate-proofs.html

As Glen has indicated, the 1d chalon is a forgery or copy

Jeremy

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Re: Queensland QV sideface specimen stamps - real?

Post by maxkirin »

Finally I found similar on the blog. Very informative. Thanks Glen and Jeremy.

Its a beautiful stamp but,I will be looking at the auction prices.

Best way to sell this stamp ? Any suggestions? EBay?

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