Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

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Is this FDC actually a FDC?

Yes
6
12%
No
44
88%
 
Total votes: 50

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JonEboy
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Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by JonEboy »

Here's a question; if a First Day Cover doesn't have the stamps cancelled, is it still a First Day Cover?

I have a cover acquired recently which looks like this;
Image

This is the back of it;

Image

The date is spot on for the issue of the stamps but as you can see they are not cancelled.

Any thoughts? Does it still count? I've created a poll as I would be interested to see what people think.

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by aethelwulf »

If a collector asked "What is a FDC?", they would be told "A FDC is an envelope that has the stamps issued that day on it cancelled with that day's datestamp."

I wouldn't want to have an uncancelled "FDC" in my collection; from the front it looks like a cover someone prepared and didn't get posted; the handstamp on reverse proves it went through the post, but aesthetically it doesn't look nice.

How could it get the reverse handstamp and not be cancelled on the face though?

If you get a cover in the mail that's gone through uncancelled, there's no premium or value to it as a "variety" or whatnot, as anybody could sit at home and fabricate as many of those as they want.
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by BigSaint »

Jon

By definition a "first day cover" is an envelope with a stamp on it, postmarked on the first day of the stamps issue. It may have a cachet (an illustration and/or explanatory text) to explain the issue but this is not essential.

The example above is an envelope with a stamp on it. The wording "First Day Cover" is a cachet (a very simple one) but it is not postmarked, therefore it cannot be a first day cover.

By the definition above, I ask whether the cover below is a first day cover?

Image

It is an envelope with a fancy cachet. It has a postmark which even says "first day of issue", but it is not a first day cover because it has no stamp, in this case JFK (Scott 1246).

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by JonEboy »

Thanks guys; interesting points.

I bought it as a curio as yes, it could be fabricated after the event, but the more I thought about it, why would you go to the trouble of cancelling the back of the envelope with the correct dated cancel? Surely you'd just slap it over the stamps and hey presto, instant FDC?

Technically it ticks the boxes for an FDC i.e.
By definition a "first day cover" is an envelope with a stamp on it TICK, postmarked on the first day of the stamps issue.TICK
Agreed, the cancel is not on the stamps but that's my dilemma. As to JFK well that's different Brad. It's clearly not an FDC as it has no stamp therefore does not meet your definition.

Now don't get me wrong here, I have thousands of FDC's at home and all of them are properly cancelled so I know what I'm looking for it's just that this one got me thinking.... :D

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by Allanswood »

"Quote:
By definition a "first day cover" is an envelope with a stamp on it TICK, postmarked on the first day of the stamps issue.TICK"

Actually NO, that definition is one sentence with the one meaning and in the same context, so no to the second tick as the sentence means the stamp on it was postmarked on the FDI.



Your quoted definition assumes what everybody else already accepts; that the stamp itself must be cancelled with the FDC canceller.

You could soak the stamps of your cover and put a Penny Black on there and then what would you have? Just another fabrication that could have been made anytime after that CDS was put on the back.


You could also remove those first stamps and put one of the next to be released on there (or same set, higher value?) and then suggest "cancelled before date of issue".

I think the poll is already telling. :D
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by BigSaint »

JonEboy wrote:Thanks guys; interesting points.

I bought it as a curio as yes, it could be fabricated after the event, but the more I thought about it, why would you go to the trouble of cancelling the back of the envelope with the correct dated cancel? Surely you'd just slap it over the stamps and hey presto, instant FDC?

Technically it ticks the boxes for an FDC i.e.
By definition a "first day cover" is an envelope with a stamp on it TICK, postmarked on the first day of the stamps issue.TICK
Agreed, the cancel is not on the stamps but that's my dilemma. As to JFK well that's different Brad. It's clearly not an FDC as it has no stamp therefore does not meet your definition.

Now don't get me wrong here, I have thousands of FDC's at home and all of them are properly cancelled so I know what I'm looking for it's just that this one got me thinking.... :D

Jon

Jon

As you are playing with my words I will slightly alter my words:

"By definition a "first day cover" is an envelope with a stamp on it that has been postmarked on the first day of the stamps issue. It may have a cachet (an illustration and/or explanatory text) to explain the issue but this is not essential.

Sorry you have just been "ticked off"! :!:

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by aethelwulf »

BigSaint wrote:Image
Little "Oops!" moment there...postmarking unfranked envelopes, good job USPOD/USPS (was it 1971 they switched the name?) First Day of Issue of ... the cacheted envelope? :lol: Nice curiosity for a collection.
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by JonEboy »

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Brilliant! I was hoping for some interesting reactions :D

Brad, I accept the 'ticking off' :!: I was of course just playing with words.

Allanswood you are right, the poll says it all. And of course it is nothing less than I expected. As I said I bought this as a curio for pennies but wanted to throw it to the world and get an opinion.

I still don't get why a collector (and I have a couple of covers addressed to the same person) would go to the trouble of doing this? Strange. Maybe the 1950's were another world..... :lol:

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by mikeg »

I think both covers are just examples of what happens when making a large quantity - Jon's cover was upside down in a stack of 50 or whatever, while Brad's cover was mixed in with a stack also.

Imagine the postal clerk is just cancelling away, doing hundreds of these and would never notice :shock:

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by aethelwulf »

mikeg wrote:Imagine the postal clerk is just cancelling away, doing hundreds of these and would never notice :shock:
The USA ones are all run through a machine for cancelling. Forget doing hundreds, given how this material seems to be a glut on the market, it seems half the print run of the stamps ends up as FDCs. :lol:
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by ewen s »

I'll play devil's advocate.

It is called a First Day Cover. It may celebrate the issue of a stamp but there is nothing in the description that leans towards a stamp being cancelled.

See the example below. It is a First Flight Cover. The back is postmarked on the correct date for the flight however the stamp is not cancelled. Is it therefore not a First Flight Cover?

Image

Image

To put it another way: would it be ethical to soak the stamp off and re-use it? It has already paid for a service.

To me, JonEboy's cover is more of a FDC than one cancelled at the PO but never posted.

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by mikeg »

Jon- just a couple of comments on your cover :D

The '61' usually means #61 in the stack. People making FDC's often numbered them, so they would know if they all came back.

Also note the 'R.L.O.' cancel- the clerks liked this canceller, as it was more comfortable to use when cancelling large quantities of mail :lol:

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by gavin-h »

In the spirit of playing with words, I'd contend that 99.9% of "First Day Covers" aren't first day covers at all. Simply on the grounds that they aren't really "covers" at all.

A "cover" is so-called because it covers something - a letter or as a minimum, a "stuffer" or a blank piece of paper.

If there's nothing inside, it's not a cover. It's well - just an envelope I suppose.

Is a pencil with no lead a pencil, or just a hollow stick of wood? Is a stable without a horse just a pile of bricks (an "unstable" if you like...)?

Aren't we a funny lot, us collectors? Sending ourselves empty envelopes then expending empty words discussing them :wink:

And that's why I voted "no". :lol:

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by Finchley Chris »

gavin-h wrote:In the spirit of playing with words, I'd contend that 99.9% of "First Day Covers" aren't first day covers at all. Simply on the grounds that they aren't really "covers" at all.

A "cover" is so-called because it covers something - a letter or as a minimum, a "stuffer" or a blank piece of paper.

If there's nothing inside, it's not a cover. It's well - just an envelope I suppose.

Is a pencil with no lead a pencil, or just a hollow stick of wood? Is a stable without a horse just a pile of bricks (an "unstable" if you like...)?

Aren't we a funny lot, us collectors? Sending ourselves empty envelopes then expending empty words discussing them :wink:

And that's why I voted "no". :lol:
Can't a postcard be a first day cover? :?

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by rossi »

Jon, was 10 cents the right rate :?:
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by indieguy »

gavin-h wrote:In the spirit of playing with words, I'd contend that 99.9% of "First Day Covers" aren't first day covers at all. Simply on the grounds that they aren't really "covers" at all.

A "cover" is so-called because it covers something - a letter or as a minimum, a "stuffer" or a blank piece of paper.

If there's nothing inside, it's not a cover. It's well - just an envelope I suppose.

Is a pencil with no lead a pencil, or just a hollow stick of wood? Is a stable without a horse just a pile of bricks (an "unstable" if you like...)?

Aren't we a funny lot, us collectors? Sending ourselves empty envelopes then expending empty words discussing them :wink:

And that's why I voted "no". :lol:
My thoughts exactly :lol:

But I would have failed putting them in words like above.

I voted No.

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by JonEboy »

rossi wrote:Jon, was 10 cents the right rate :?:
Now that's a very good question :!: I'm away from my office at the moment so I can't access the rates for the date but I doubt it was....

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by gavin-h »

Finchley Chris wrote:Can't a postcard be a first day cover? :?
It can be a "first day cancelled postcard", but no, it can't be a cover as it isn't covering anything. :wink:

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by ewen s »

indieguy wrote:
gavin-h wrote:In the spirit of playing with words, I'd contend that 99.9% of "First Day Covers" aren't first day covers at all. Simply on the grounds that they aren't really "covers" at all.

A "cover" is so-called because it covers something - a letter or as a minimum, a "stuffer" or a blank piece of paper.

If there's nothing inside, it's not a cover. It's well - just an envelope I suppose.

Is a pencil with no lead a pencil, or just a hollow stick of wood? Is a stable without a horse just a pile of bricks (an "unstable" if you like...)?

Aren't we a funny lot, us collectors? Sending ourselves empty envelopes then expending empty words discussing them :wink:

And that's why I voted "no". :lol:
My thoughts exactly :lol:

But I would have failed putting them in words like above.

I voted No.
Beautifully put as usual, but in the spirit of the discussion...

It doesn't have to cover anything to be called a cover. We name things by the use for which they were intended.

A bedspread is still a bedspread when it sits on the shelf in a shop. A spaceship is not just a machine till it makes it into space. A bouncy ball never needs to be bounced.

It's still a cover :)

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by kpost »

Image

So this is quite worthless (uncancelled)?
k

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by Global Administrator »

kpost wrote:Image

So this is quite worthless (uncancelled)?

k
Yes with that appalling aging/foxing it is fire starter material. With or without cancel. :mrgreen:
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by jimwentzell »

I guess one could technically call the first two items portrayed above "incomplete FDC's" as they are not fully FDC's but obviously were cancelled on the first day.

I for one am a vigorous opponent of the blatantly misleading practise of "backdating" covers which has been done by at least a couple different postal authorities, if I recall correctly.

The practise of allowing collectors to mail in their own pre-franked covers--typically up to a month after the date of issue--who request the postal authorities to then retroactively "cancel" their covers with a "first day" cancel.

What a misrepresentation--in my view a clear abuse--of the sanctity of the dated postal cancelling device!

But that's a topic for another thread......

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by BigSaint »

All Photobucket “Ransom” images above have been replaced, and saved forever.

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by The Pom »

Shame these 2 aren't postmarked.....

Image

Image
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by BigSaint »

The Pom wrote:Shame these 2 aren't postmarked.....

Image

Image
Chris

That second cover is rather interesting with the first day of issue date typed in as March 2, 1942.

It has been maintained that 25/03/1942, was fdi for the 3½d Bright Blue King VI by virtue of the cover below.
Image
Sorry about the photocopy, but this is the only one seen & was originally sold at Rod Perry's auction about 18 years ago. It appeared again at Phoenix last month where it sold for around $5500 including charges.

It always concerned me that there was more than a 3 month delay from it's release from the Note Printing Branch before sale at the Post Office.

What is the provenance of your two covers :?:

The cachet matches this one but is it the same typewriter:
Image
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by The Pom »

Some better scans.

Image

Image

Image

Image

The covers were bought over 10 years ago on ebay for just a couple of $ each, I purchased them as a bit of a novelty.

The seller claimed they were prepared, but not posted, because the recipient was missing in action. I though this was odd at the time - you wouldn't prepare a cover in Mar '42, not post it for that reason, and then prepare a second cover in Dec '42.

I posted the addressed cover in an earlier thread here:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11961

Traralgon kindly managed to find the service record of the addressee:
Service Record
Name CASON, CECIL CALDWELL
Service Australian Army
Service Number NX103913 (N299671)
Date of Birth 31 Dec 1909
Place of Birth LISMORE, NSW
Date of Enlistment 7 Jul 1942
Locality on Enlistment MURWILLUMBAH, NSW
Place of Enlistment SYDNEY, NSW
Next of Kin CASON, JANE
Date of Discharge 15 Nov 1945
Rank Corporal
Posting at Discharge 2 ORDNANCE FIELD PARK AAOC
WW2 Honours and Gallantry None for display
Prisoner of War No
If he was missing, he was found again: "Date of Discharge 15 Nov 1945"

There is certainly a strong case to suggest that these were prepared by the same person that did yours - as you say, it looks distinctly like the same typewriter. The "A" displaced down & left is most disctinctive.
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by BigSaint »

Chris

I don't think they were on the same typewriter, the "2" is different - Straight base vs Wavy base.

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by The Pom »

Good point, well spotted.
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by BigSaint »

And what does everyone think about this one currently on ebay :?: :
Image

Image

Australia 1934 Macarthur 2d White AND Dark Hills FDC RARE!
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Australia-1934-Macarthur-2d-White ... 1438.l2649
I don't have the snipping tool so if someone could add that for me.

Ebay seller is Numis_Phil who is a member here & describes it as such:

Item Description: Interesting and possibly unique FDC franked with both 2d 'White Hills' and 'Dark Hills' postmarked November 1st 1934. According to Brusden White Catalogue(2007 edition, page 5/41) the earliest known date for 2d 'Dark Hills' was 26th November 1934!

I have two problems with this being called a first day cover:

1. The stamps & postmarks have been cut from another cover & stuck on this one. I don't know if this was done on 1st November 1934 or yesterday, but the envelope this piece has been stuck on appears to have aged at the same rate as the piece that is stuck on it.

2. I have never seen a "dark hills" postmarked on 1st November 1934 & didn't think it was issued at the same time.

Greenwich is a suburb on the lower North Shore of Sydney, located 7 kilometres north-west of the Sydney central business district, in the local government area of the Municipality of Lane Cove. The suburb occupies a peninsula on the northern side of Sydney Harbour, at the opening of the Lane Cove River.

PPA tells us that Greenwich opened as a RO 1/10/1880; & became a PO 16/8/1883 & is still open today.

Personally I would call this a "piece" postmarked on first day glued to an envelope. What do other stampboarders think :?:

Brad :D
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by bazza4338 »

Is this what you want?

Image

Image

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by BigSaint »

Not quite, the actual auction page itself (the top half mainly) showing the auction details.

Thank you Bazza

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by bazza4338 »

Image

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by BigSaint »

Thank you Bazza.

Brad :)
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by Rod Perry »

JonEboy wrote:Here's a question; if a First Day Cover doesn't have the stamps cancelled, is it still a First Day Cover?

I have a cover acquired recently which looks like this;
Image

This is the back of it;

Image

The date is spot on for the issue of the stamps but as you can see they are not cancelled.

Any thoughts? Does it still count? I've created a poll as I would be interested to see what people think.

Jon
It would appear, technically, it's a FDC. The backstamp confirms that aspect.

In practical assessment, however, it's a Clayton's FDC. (For those who weren't there: Clayton's was a heavily promoted 1980s "soft" drink, the catchline for which was the drink you have, when you're not really having a drink)

Translation for the item in question?

Surely, if it's a FDC you want, one can do better than that example.

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by Rod Perry »

BigSaint wrote:And what does everyone think about this one currently on ebay :?: :
Image

Image

Australia 1934 Macarthur 2d White AND Dark Hills FDC RARE!
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Australia-1934-Macarthur-2d-White ... 1438.l2649
I don't have the snipping tool so if someone could add that for me.

Ebay seller is Numis_Phil who is a member here & describes it as such:

Item Description: Interesting and possibly unique FDC franked with both 2d 'White Hills' and 'Dark Hills' postmarked November 1st 1934. According to Brusden White Catalogue(2007 edition, page 5/41) the earliest known date for 2d 'Dark Hills' was 26th November 1934!

I have two problems with this being called a first day cover:

1. The stamps & postmarks have been cut from another cover & stuck on this one. I don't know if this was done on 1st November 1934 or yesterday, but the envelope this piece has been stuck on appears to have aged at the same rate as the piece that is stuck on it.

2. I have never seen a "dark hills" postmarked on 1st November 1934 & didn't think it was issued at the same time.

Greenwich is a suburb on the lower North Shore of Sydney, located 7 kilometres north-west of the Sydney central business district, in the local government area of the Municipality of Lane Cove. The suburb occupies a peninsula on the northern side of Sydney Harbour, at the opening of the Lane Cove River.

PPA tells us that Greenwich opened as a RO 1/10/1880; & became a PO 16/8/1883 & is still open today.

Personally I would call this a "piece" postmarked on first day glued to an envelope. What do other stampboarders think :?:

Brad :D
ACSC gives earliest date known for Macarthur 2d "Dark hills" as November 26 1934.

I have not recorded an earlier date.

If "Dark hills" was issued the same day as the other three in the set, I suspect I would have seen a date between Nov 1 (date of issue of inaugural set) and Nov 26, 25 days later, after 30 years of studying this philatelic field.

Rod
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by heldo1 »

....possibly attached later and the PM added over the 'Dark Hills' ?

The strip of envelope suggest something strange has been going on...IMHO
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by BigSaint »

Rod

Leaving aside the postmarking for the moment, is it right to call this a fdc if the stamps & postmarks have been cut from another cover & stuck on this one :?:

Brad :)
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by heldo1 »

Brad,
IMHO....no
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by BigSaint »

Robert

I agree, I don't think it is a fdc & I quote you from this thread as to the reason why:


What is a First Day Cover?

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&p=4181921#p4181921
ewen s wrote:Some interesting discussion on the same topic here, posted so this thread can be read in context.

New Australia 60c "Concession Stamps" - who made FDCs?
Australia Post changes First Day of Issue date

Here is how the FIP define a FDC, taken from the APF website. It's a good place to start when searching for definitions.
Australian Philatelic Federation wrote:A FDC is defined as

1) a cover to which stamps have been affixed and postmarked by the issuing Postal Authority on the date of issue of the stamps;
2) a postal stationery item postmarked by the issuing Postal Authority on its date of issue;
3) a souvenir cover to which stamps have been affixed and postmarked on the first day of use of the souvenir cover;
4) cover with stamps affixed and postmarked on the first day of use of the postmark.
http://www.apf.org.au/fdc.htm

PS, other member's opinions would be welcomed. It won't be long before someone searches on the net for "what is a first day cover" and this thread will be top match...
Now I don't think I am splitting hairs in the definition here when I say that the stamps were NOT attached to this cover when they were postmarked. So I do not believe this "creation" complies with Rule 1 & there should not be described as a first day cover.

Brad :)
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by heldo1 »

Brad,
Your last post says it all. It is not a FDC....you agree....
And by the way....I have never posted on the topic as mentioned in your last post.
I still say....No ....IMHO but as you are already aware ....I'm no expert in this field so you need not worry about my opinion
heldo1

I would lastly add that Rod's opinion is a bit more knowledgeable than mine in this field....if he says no....I wouldn't go against him.
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by Rod Perry »

BigSaint wrote:Rod

Leaving aside the postmarking for the moment, is it right to call this a fdc if the stamps & postmarks have been cut from another cover & stuck on this one :?:

Brad :)
No, and I repeat: "Dark hills" is not recorded used prior to November 26.

Rod
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by BigSaint »

Rod

Here is the earliest Macarthur "Dark Hills" that I own:
Image

Image

Image
Being the letter rate stamp at the time, one would think that it would be in daily use, & if after 80 years none have been seen dated earlier than 26th November 1934 then it would not have been issued on 1st November 1934, with the rest of the Macarthur set.

I am inclined to think that there has been some serious back dating done with the Greenwich ebay cover of Numis_Phil as well as the "Cutting & Pasting".

Brad :)
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by Rackrunner »

Rod Perry wrote:
BigSaint wrote:Rod

Leaving aside the postmarking for the moment, is it right to call this a fdc if the stamps & postmarks have been cut from another cover & stuck on this one :?:

Brad :)
No, and I repeat: "Dark hills" is not recorded used prior to November 26.

Rod
Rod
This may be a candidate for the earliest recorded usage for the "Dark Hills" stamp?
It looks like the date reads 2-P 17NO-- on the front and is backdated 24DEC34 on the back.

What do you think?

Thanks
Paul

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by Rod Perry »

The airmail service at this time Aust-India was typically seven days.

The Sydney datestamp should have been 17 DEC, not NOV.

The flight from Australia reaching Calcutta Dec 23 1934 experienced no delays en route to that point [5 days later there was engine trouble near Rutbah Iraq].

A good example of how cancellations on isolated used stamps cannot always be trusted to be correct.

Rod
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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by Rackrunner »

Rod
Thanks for your reply,thats great info!

BTW- which reference material did you use?

Thanks,again.
Paul

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Re: Is this First Day Cover actually a First Day Cover?

Post by Rod Perry »

Rackrunner wrote:Rod
Thanks for your reply,thats great info!

BTW- which reference material did you use?

Thanks,again.
Paul
E.W. Proud: Intercontinental Airmails Volume Two Asia and Australasia

(That's the precise title, should anyone wish to search for this excellent publication. There are also Vols I (Transatlantic & Pacific) and III (Africa))

Rod
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