Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

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Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by fishnz »

This stamp was sold on Ebay

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NSW-Stamps-Great-Selection-Used-FREE-POST-e153-/332941413011

by one-stop-stamp-shop

What is the forum's view on it being a genuine 5d imperforate? The postmark appears of the time so as it is not a dated postmark.

Does the colour look right for this issue ?
Image
Last edited by Global Administrator on 17 Jan 2019 17:26, edited 4 times in total.
Reason: Expanded rather vague heading, to make more sense to members & image restored

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Global Administrator »

It is ScamBay, the land of lazy and the spivs, so do not expect overexposed cellphone images to tell you ANYTHING.

Ebay sellers, apart from often using such lazy and appalling images, have a limited vocabulary.

This genius used the one word description - "EXCELLENT".

I suggest you go the the search box at base of this base and type in

one-stop-stamp-shop

And your question whether this is genuine might be better answered. :idea:

Start your voyage of spiv discovery right here -

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=79177
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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by gregbear61 »

It's fun chasing him up "one-stop-stamp-shop" for a refund as well.

I bought a mis-described stamp off him a few months back - described as MNH but the stamp had a hinge remnant.

There was no photo of the gum side in the listing, but you think he would have noticed.

So I send it back tracked mail.

I wait a few days after the item has been delivered for the refund of a couple of hundred dollars. Nothing.

I note the item is relisted by him. Still no sign of a refund.

I watch the item sell. No refund yet.

I send an email pointing out the above and suggesting it might be timely to process the refund. No refund.

I did get a curt response, saying he'd been out of town on business. I did then point out he'd managed to relist and sell the returned item without distraction.

I raised a case on Paypal resolution centre and received the cash back that way.

I left negative feedback, but he had it wiped as I referenced having to make a claim - a feedback no-no I discovered.

I haven't been back.

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by fishnz »

Does anyone have some good images of the colour of the genuine 5d imperforate diadem?

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Allanswood »

Why did you delete the image?
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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Rod Perry »

I never cease to be amazed by collectors who select a challenging topic to collect, without first becoming very proficient in their chosen field.

Imperforate "Diadems" of NSW are a good example of a category for which it's essential to become proficient, before diving in at the deep end.

Philatelic Traders, who should know better, and bespoke Auction Houses regularly misclassify cut-down perforated "Diadems" as imperforate.

Unforgivable errors of misclassification, such as visible dates many years after imperforate stamps were replaced, are regularly encountered.

It's possible to get such things right (99% of the time!), even before you acquire your first imperforate stamp.

Such exercises as studying as many auction catalogue images as possible, and buying inexpensive mixed lots of "Diadems" at auction, would be a good way to getting started on becoming proficient.

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by ViccyVFU »

Well, it might be...

Here are the two images from the listing (Admin - feel free to move above, if required). I trimmed the dark borders a bit, to better fit our format.

Image

Image

In fact, by my calculation (of the weak corner), it might even be an inverted watermark.

Here's what a genuine one looks like:

Image

The Sheriffs concern, and its a very real concern of members here (over numerous threads) is that this is a reckless stamp lister, who probably doesn't know if its real, or not.

If it is real, there are bargains to be had. If its a fake, then buyer beware ..... and despite his impressive 22,000 positive feedback, there are rules that ebay have not announced, that "can favour this kind of irresponsible vendor".

For example, if you leave negative feedback for someone, and they refund you, the negative is struck off.

Its very frustrating, as by my books they did not complete the deal, but there is no downside for them, other than a refund .... hardly a binding contract!

There are also numerous examples of this vendor using shill bidders to realised higher prices. Not in this case (fought over by two snipe bidders in the closing seconds), but we are awash with example of the dubious practices of this vendor.

So, in summary, it may well have been real in this case, and if so, as a lightly used example was good value ..... but can you afford to risk that sort of money with a vendor that neither cares about what they supply, and will be a nightmare to get a refund from?

That's the dilemma of "the wild west frontier of ebay", especially anywhere near "bulk disposers".

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Allanswood »

It's a trimmed down perforated example (because I can see the signs) and the invert watermark doesn't add value.
But for the unaware, the colour and watermarks on the imperf and first 12 gauge perfs are pretty well the same.

Although the seller didn't describe it as an imperf, nor even a diadem - he just said "a great selection". :shock: A selection of 1?
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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by ViccyVFU »

Well, its not unusual for me to be eating humble pie on Australian issues.
(Think of it as investing time in my education :D ).

The learning point being that without an appreciation of the nuances of some early issues, its very easy to come unstuck, especially with known rogue vendors.

None of the half dozen perfed examples in my stock book had anywhere near this sort of margin, but I did come across an 8d which left plenty of scope "for the less scrupulous" .....

Image

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Allanswood »

That's because it was common to not perforate the outer edges of a sheet as the sheet did not have large outer margins once printed, so there would be plenty of 1 or 2 sides (the corners) imperf stamps out there.
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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Global Administrator »

Rod Perry wrote:I never cease to be amazed by collectors who select a challenging topic to collect, without first becoming very proficient in their chosen field.

Imperforate "Diadems" of NSW are a good example of a category for which it's essential to become proficient, before diving in at the deep end.

Philatelic Traders, who should know better, and bespoke Auction Houses regularly misclassify cut-down perforated "Diadems" as imperforate.

Unforgivable errors of misclassification, such as visible dates many years after imperforate stamps were replaced, are regularly encountered.

It's possible to get such things right (99% of the time!), even before you acquire your first imperforate stamp.

Such exercises as studying as many auction catalogue images as possible, and buying inexpensive mixed lots of "Diadems" at auction, would be a good way to getting started on becoming proficient.

Rod

Good advice Rod .. sadly the Massive Army of clueless ScamBay "BAARGIN HUNTAS" will never read your saga advice, much less action it.

A blind nun can see the traces of the scissored off, perf 10 perforation holes along base, and experienced eyes like mine can see an ironed out crease at top left, and the same blind nun should be able to see the 3 or 4mm tear at top centre, and the obvious thin top right, but of course spiv seller "one-stop-stamp-shop" does not mention these minor details, and the clueless cashed-up Ebay Bunnies have no idea what a "tear" or a "crease" or a "thin" is.

OR a cut down perforated stamp of course. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Rod Perry »

ViccyVFU wrote:Well, its not unusual for me to be eating humble pie on Australian issues.
(Think of it as investing time in my education :D ).

The learning point being that without an appreciation of the nuances of some early issues, its very easy to come unstuck, especially with known rogue vendors.

None of the half dozen perfed examples in my stock book had anywhere near this sort of margin, but I did come across an 8d which left plenty of scope "for the less scrupulous" .....

Image
Even with an adequate margin at left, any self-respecting crook would not remove the perfoations from this stamp.

The 1886 postmark, and wmk. change preclude this example from "imperfing".

The great N.S.W. collector, Dale Forster ("Manwood"), advised me that the 8d "Diadem" perf. 12 is actually a rarer stamp unused than its imperf. predecessor, despite SG Cat of £6500 and £17000, respectively.

Such has been the effect of grandmother's scissors on the perforated population during the past century and more.

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by fishnz »

Thank you all for the information and advice about the stamp I posted. I apologise for apparently deleting the image . I was caught out in that I didn't know that if you remove some of the older Imgur images it disturbs the reference point so that the image is lost. I didn't deliberately delete the image. Goes with the old saying the longer you live the more you learn. Trouble is you don't live long enough to learn it all.
I agree the diadem issues are a mine field Stamp man Dave was for quite some time was selling multiple nice copies of imperforate 6d Violet diadems on Ebay despite there being no such stamp.I checked and he has one for sale right now if you missed out.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1854-1859-Series-NSW-New-South-W ... 2193460543

It seems the 5d imperforate is very difficult to recognise as the colour seems to vary.
This mint copy came with a certificate of authenticity
Image

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by fishnz »

This is the certificate
Image

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Global Administrator »

That probably is OK, but I feel sure Rod will share my GENERAL views about the Americans expertising classics from here -

VERY hit and miss.

Mostly miss.
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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Rod Perry »

fishnz wrote:This is the certificate
Image
From where I sit, that looks awfully like a Plate proof, rather than the issued stamp.

Does it have a watermark?

I've handled scores of unused Diadem 5d imperf. Never have I seen one with gum, yet alone "regummed".

Probably 95% of the unused 5d imperf. seen emanate from an ungummed source. I have heard this material referred to as "remaindered" (by E.R. Slade-Slade).

Like Glen, I am apprehensive about American certificates for Australian Colonial stamps.

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by fishnz »

This is the rear view of the latest stamp being discussed.
Image

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Rod Perry »

fishnz wrote:This is the rear view of the latest stamp being discussed.
Image
Appears A.P.S. got it right.

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by pertinax »

Rod,

Isn't the APS certified stamp in a later (than imperf period) bluish green shade?


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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Rod Perry »

pertinax wrote:Rod,

Isn't the APS certified stamp in a later (than imperf period) bluish green shade?


Scott
Which is what initially made me suspect it was a Plate proof.

SG list just one shade for the imperf. 5d: "dull green".

Robson Lowe recognises what specialists know to be a rare stamp. His listing has "dull green - slightly bluish", which is the shade of almost all unused examples seen. These emanate from one source, which appeared on the market in nineteenth century. These usually have wmk. inverted and reversed. Despite SG £1300 unused, it's a readily available stamp in fine condition. Not so used (which rates only £650). Lowe, in fact, does not price it used.

The rare version Lowe calls "dull green". These have none of that "bluishness" found in the readily available printing. Seen together, the differences are unforgettable.

When I say "Appears A.P.S. got it right.", I should have been less economical with words, and explained they got it right that it's not a Plate proof.

The problem is that, even if it is a cut-down perforated stamp (which the shade in the scan suggests), the U.S. market, in particular, will revere that APS cert, in perpetuity.

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by starling »

I was wondering if the 5d Diadem that the APS certified might be a Takuma forgery?


https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65218364


His skill was being able to seamlessly attach a thinned down square of paper with a genuine watermark to a likewise thinned down cheaper stamp (a perfed version or a proof).

The margins in the APS example are too white for my liking. In the early printings there was always a halo of the green ink around the printed area in the 5d values and the paper was a bit greyer as well. Not to mention that the shade is off as has been mentioned.


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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Rod Perry »

starling wrote:I was wondering if the 5d Diadem that the APS certified might be a Takuma forgery?


https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65218364


His skill was being able to seamlessly attach a thinned down square of paper with a genuine watermark to a likewise thinned down cheaper stamp (a perfed version or a proof).

The margins in the APS example are too white for my liking. In the early printings there was always a halo of the green ink around the printed area in the 5d values and the paper was a bit greyer as well. Not to mention that the shade is off as has been mentioned.


Scott
Interesting hypothesis, Scott.

Takuma was certainly highly skilled for his era.

The appearance of the stamp impression is much later than 1860s.

A good example of why U.S. certs for Australian Colonial stamps often warrant a closer look.

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Re: Is this a genuine NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate?

Post by Global Administrator »

Added a warning note in my ''Stamp News'' article next month, re the dopiness of buying high cat States IMPERFS off ebay, if you do not know your field VERY well - i.e. 99.9% of ebay buyers -

https://glenstephens.com/snfebruary19.html

Surely only an ebay Bunny would bid real money on vandalised junk like this -
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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by fishnz »

Comment on this same stamp from Bobby De La Rue on Stamporama about this same stamp

"It sold for A$97.00

By the looks of the photograph, the stamp is most likely a trimmed down perf. 13 bluish green shade, issued in December 1863. The margins, assuming they're genuine, are stunning, but that's no guarantee.

To clear up a few points for those who've read the thread on the other board, this cannot be a perf 10 stamp. This gauge was introduced in June 1880, long after the watermark 5 paper was exhausted.

The ironed out crease is actually the hexagonal frame as far as I can see. The cancellation looks like a well worn/overly inked White type D3, in use from March 1862 to July 1864.

Further, the conflation of "grandmother's scissors" with the scarcity of the 8d perf. 12 stamps is quite frankly ridiculous. The relative scarcity of the perf. 12 compared to the imperfs would've been known reasonably early by observation alone, given NSW stamps were among the most studied stamps in the latter years of the 19th century, if not the 1870s/1880s.

This is not to say that no perf. 12s were trimmed down but the vast majority of trimmed down stamps will unquestionably be perf. 13 stamps.

As always, caveat emptor!!"

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by fishnz »

Further note from Bobby
"There were two printings of the 5d stamp prior to the introduction of perforation in 1860. There were 5,500 printed in 1855 and 22,900 in May 1858. They are clearly different shades, despite what the catalogues say."
Image

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by fishnz »

Useful extra information here about imperf diadems
https://www.stampcommunity.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=63381

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by Rod Perry »

fishnz wrote:Further note from Bobby
"There were two printings of the 5d stamp prior to the introduction of perforation in 1860. There were 5,500 printed in 1855 and 22,900 in May 1858. They are clearly different shades, despite what the catalogues say."
Image
Above, on Dec 22 2018, I posted:

"Robson Lowe recognises what specialists know to be a rare stamp. His listing has "dull green - slightly bluish", which is the shade of almost all unused examples seen. These emanate from one source, which appeared on the market in nineteenth century. These usually have wmk. inverted and reversed. Despite SG £1300 unused, it's a readily available stamp in fine condition. Not so used (which rates only £650). Lowe, in fact, does not price it used.

The rare version Lowe calls "dull green". These have none of that "bluishness" found in the readily available printing. Seen together, the differences are unforgettable."


I suggest, these differences identify the two printings detailed above.

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by fishnz »

Rod which of the two types of 5d imperforates shown alongside each other above is the more common colour?

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by Rod Perry »

Rod Perry wrote:
fishnz wrote:Further note from Bobby
"There were two printings of the 5d stamp prior to the introduction of perforation in 1860. There were 5,500 printed in 1855 and 22,900 in May 1858. They are clearly different shades, despite what the catalogues say."
Image
Above, on Dec 22 2018, I posted:

"Robson Lowe recognises what specialists know to be a rare stamp. His listing has "dull green - slightly bluish", which is the shade of almost all unused examples seen. These emanate from one source, which appeared on the market in nineteenth century. These usually have wmk. inverted and reversed. Despite SG £1300 unused, it's a readily available stamp in fine condition. Not so used (which rates only £650). Lowe, in fact, does not price it used.

The rare version Lowe calls "dull green". These have none of that "bluishness" found in the readily available printing. Seen together, the differences are unforgettable."


I suggest, these differences identify the two printings detailed above.

Rod
fishnz: "Rod which of the two types of 5d imperforates shown alongside each other above is the more common colour?"

The one on the left is a forgery.

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by fishnz »

Thanks for the reply Rod.

Found this image this morning. Amazing the size of some these margins on 5d diadems.
Image

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by fishnz »

More from Bobby La Rue on 5d imperforate
"This thread, in particular the first 5d diadem scan on page 1, has caught the attention of the Australian board.

It has been mentioned that the 5d diadem on piece is a forgery and on closer inspection it is. This forgeries site gives every indication that this one is by Oneglia:

https://stampforgeries.com/new-sout...en-victoria/

I found the image on stampauctionnetwork. It was part of the Neal Allen collection (Shreves #61 April 3, 2004, lot 478) and was again auctioned by Dutch Country Auctions last year (sale #316, lot 782). The description in both auctions stated that the stamp came with a 1988 PF certificate! Caveat emptor indeed.....

Robson Lowe (Australasia p.40) lists the two shades: dull green - slightly bluish & dull green. He offered no price for the former in used condition. He states the former "is usually found with the watermark inverted and reversed, but there is little difference in the two shades when in unused condition."

The scans below are from the Alvorado collection, auctioned by Spink in 2010. They hopefully will offer some indication of the shade difference."
Image

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

Rod Perry wrote: Image

The one on the left is a forgery.

Rod
THAT one would certainly fool many Rod, for sure.

Unlike these laughable imperforate Tasmania Courier stamp fakes ebay is being flooded with recently like this - the Bunnies are going crazy bidding on them assuming they are genuine. :roll: :roll:
Image

Image
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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by W5LDY »

A couple of examples for shade comparison, first a pair, apparently rather scarce in multiples.

Image

secondly a single in a similar shade.

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by MJ's pet »

W5LDY wrote:A couple of examples for shade comparison, first a pair, apparently rather scarce in multiples.
Image
A nice item for sure. A very seasoned NSW collector (I think it was "Manwood") used to say that the 5d Diadem Imperf can ONLY really be collected in pairs.

The twist in that sage advice is that used pairs are screamingly rare.

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by Rod Perry »

MJ's pet wrote:
W5LDY wrote:A couple of examples for shade comparison, first a pair, apparently rather scarce in multiples.
Image
A nice item for sure. A very seasoned NSW collector (I think it was "Manwood") used to say that the 5d Diadem Imperf can ONLY really be collected in pairs.

The twist in that sage advice is that used pairs are screamingly rare.
The Diadem 5d and 8d imperforate are best collected in pairs.

Date alone is not necessarily a determinant for imperforate status.

The 5d perf. 12 was issued in 1863, but imperfs continued to be available somewhat later.

The pair above, for example, was used mid-1865.

On cover can be a good determinant for imperforate, particularly if dated pre-1863 (5d), and pre-Feb 1860 (8d).

The 8d can be a particularly dangerous stamp for the unprepared.

I've witnessed cut-down perf. 13 8d red-orange unused (SG 167a - Cat £475) sell at auction for over AU$20,000 (uncertified).

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by MJ's pet »

Rod Perry wrote: The Diadem 5d and 8d imperforate are best collected in pairs.
Yes. I meant to add the 8d to that also.

The 8d in imperf pairs are even rarer still.

IIRC only one example of the 5d imperf pair exists on cover (Manwood Collection).

Collectors of the 1/- imperf are fortunate as some dirty great big used blocks exist. Marvellous items.

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by fishnz »

Here is another image of a certified 8d to expand the library.
Image

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by fishnz »

A closer look at stamp.
Image

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Re: Is this a genuine 1855 NSW 5d Diadem Imperforate stamp?

Post by MJ's pet »

fishnz wrote:
Image
There is a problem with 8d singles on piece or cover:- the stamp can be removed and the perfs trimmed. As only a tiny sliver of paper is removed, the illusion of a "tie" is maintained.

(What does the text say at the top? If "On Public Service" should the item have had a stamp?).

The second "Y" of SYDNEY in the postmark looks a little strange - it is on the corner of the stamp, yet appears to be in the wrong position relative to the rest of the postmark. The "Y" appears to sit too high and the stamp possibly lifted and repositioned upwards. That said, I haven't checked the Sydney postmark against line drawings in the various handbooks. It may be OK, just looks a little funny on close inspection.

It seems that no 8d perforates were issued by Aug 1859 - Rod P says pre-Feb 1860 (8d) is the right time period for imperforate use.

So in all it may be OK, even if the Certificate is ancient (1936).

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