Fake? GB QV 1d red Plate 20 with bluish Maltese Cross

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Wentworth
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Fake? GB QV 1d red Plate 20 with bluish Maltese Cross

Post by Wentworth »

.
Hello,

Recently, I have been trying to identify fake 1d reds and MX cancels, comparing them to my legitimate ones.

Not sure about this one:

The stamp face looks genuine, not sure about the back, and the MX is very neat. Something seems off to me, but I could be completely wrong. Also seller has very little feedback.

Is it possible to clean cancels off 1d reds to then cancel them with a more valuable blue MX? (I thought this was only possible with penny blacks) Do you think this is a forgery?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313352845914

Cheers!


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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by W5LDY »

Looks ok to me, the blue has a darkish hue suggesting 'mixed' inks, ie the canceller was applied onto the blue pad and black pad before cancelling the stamp.
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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by RevRed+ »

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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by Allanswood »

I guess some peoples idea of what is "blue" has a very wide interpretation. The most I see is a slightly more "fluid" black.

(They even had a blue pad in the mid 1800's?)

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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by CMJ »


I agree with W5LDY - a genuine stamp with, at best, a mixed inks (blue-black) common cross. But it is VERY difficult to tell from images like this. I have 1d reds that definitely have black Maltese crosses but when scanned display a bluish tinge like the one illustrated.

You have to question why, with blue Maltese crosses commanding such a premium, it would not be described as such if it was really blue to the naked eye.

As to the seller, I think they have a multiple thousand feedbacks across other accounts, This one seems to be a new one created, I suspect, for coins and they have listed some stamps on it rather than one of their 15 (yes fifteen) accounts selling stamps.

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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by CMJ »

Allanswood wrote: 24 Dec 2020 08:25 (They even had a blue pad in the mid 1800's?)
Yes, primarily for applying datestamps (dispatch, transit or arrival) to letters; these are seen in a wide variety of colours. Here is a nice (definitely) blue one...

YorkDSBlue.jpg

They same pad was sometimes used (mistakenly or deliberately) when applying the obliterator (Maltese cross or barred numeral) which is why you find these applied in colours other than the regulation "black".

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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by Global Administrator »

W5LDY wrote: 24 Dec 2020 04:12
Looks ok to me, the blue has a darkish hue suggesting 'mixed' inks, ie the canceller was applied onto the blue pad and black pad before cancelling the stamp.
Agree .. seller has listed up a long conga line of 1d reds, and has not noticed the bluish hue on this one -

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/duzik-com-numismatics-1/m.html?it ... 7675.l2562
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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by Wentworth »

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Interesting! So most likely the result of the blue an black inks becoming mixed on the cancellor. Or simply the result of scanning.

But CMJ that is some true detective work. How did you discover they had 15 other accounts?!!
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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by Global Administrator »

Wentworth wrote: 24 Dec 2020 12:49
Or simply the result of scanning.

If you READ the posts before yours is it clearly evident it has nothing to do with scanning settings -


https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/duzik-com-numismatics-1/m.html?it ... 7675.l2562

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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by W5LDY »

Wentworth wrote: 24 Dec 2020 12:49 .
Interesting! So most likely the result of the blue an black inks becoming mixed on the cancellor. Or simply the result of scanning.

But CMJ that is some true detective work. How did you discover they had 15 other accounts?!!
Search for Duzik brings up something like 1500 listings, I haven't clicked into them but obvious he has more than one selling account. CMJ may have used a different method.
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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by Wentworth »

Global Administrator wrote: 24 Dec 2020 12:55 If you READ the posts before yours is it clearly evident it has nothing to do with scanning settings -

I was only referring to what CMJ wrote regarding some of their black Maltese Crosses showing a blue tinge when scanned.

I thought this could be a possibility since the background in the two images is a different hue (not only a different brightness). The face image seems more washed with colour; so I wondered if the blue tinge was being emphasised by the way the photo was taken..


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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by Global Administrator »

.
OMG. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Why not BUYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY the darn thing for a few quid (it is Xmas time -- live dangerously for a change - life on the wild side, for an ebayer, I know) rather than keep digging that hole deeper, and stating black is white. :evil:

You've wasted 50 quid of time with scans and naval gazing, and self doubt, feebly convincing yourself and yourself only, it is not an obvious blue-black cancel.
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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by Wentworth »

Haha have I just been a bit thick :oops: :roll:
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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Pl. 20 with blue Maltese

Post by Wentworth »

I’ll shut up now, but I do actually agree it definitely looks blue-black
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Re: Fake? GB QV 1d red Plate 20 with bluish Maltese Cross

Post by Wentworth »

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Typed that before the rest of your comment came up ^^^ so will say this:

I had every intention of just buying it to have a look, regardless if it is blue or not (as you said it’s just a few quid). I only made this thread as I was interested in other opinions, but it wouldn’t change what I do.

I wasn’t wanting to be convinced 100% that it was legitimate before buying it. Once a bunch of you said it’s probably a mix of black and blue inks on the cancellator I was convinced it was genuine.

My reply to CMJ was meant to be my final comment on the topic. I wasn’t wanting anyone to explain it further and definitely wasn’t wanting to waste everyone’s time... There’s no need to be a keyboard warrior because you believed I was trying to convincing myself that it could be fake.

I only went to the effort of putting up the 2nd scans to explain my comment. I won’t bother explaining this again. It’s a waste of both of our time!
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