Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

I seem to be locked out of SB just now, password seems to be rejected. Got here through e mail notification???

Anyone help??

John

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by DarrenK »

Hi John,

Yes, that is off topic and maybe I shall leave it there. I wanted to do something a bit different maybe similar to this again (see link below) and more in bite size chunks. One set at a time and in depth. A reference similar to some of your other threads. My trouble is I can see colour differences but what they are called is something I struggle with. I have many signed items that will be useful in that quest I think.

https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=48951

I will be limited for a few months. I'm going to be moving as I'm about to lease out my old "State Savings Bank of Victoria" building where I have lived upstairs for the past 8 or so years after I left the farm. It will be a huge job packing up mountains of stamps and then unpacking and sorting them at the other end!
Always interested in trading German material especially post war period.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

All the best with your move, DarrenK. Always a stressful time!

Seems to be quite a theme here- Norvic as well.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

The 3pf and 10Pf Mi.51 and Mi.52. (SG PE11 and PE12).


First the easy part.

There are two types of Mi 51.




Mi.51 Type I East Saxony.
Mi.51 Type I East Saxony.



Mi.51 Type II East Saxony.
Mi.51 Type II East Saxony.




The Mi.52 10Pf is only one type.


Now it gets complicated in Michel.


We have 5 paper differences.

Mi 51 and Mi. 52 paper types as in Michel specialised.
Mi 51 and Mi. 52 paper types as in Michel specialised.

On top of this we have three gum differences.

This is at base of Michel table above.


On top of this we have shade differences.

Michel table showing Mi.51 and 52 characteristics.
Michel table showing Mi.51 and 52 characteristics.



So a whole spectrum of possibilities.
There are great differences in the CVs for the particular combinations.

I have quite a few examples of Mi.51 and 52 and will try and estimate what I have in terms of Michel.

Paper types.

Straight away I am confused as to these. In particular with reference to the ascending and descending paper stripes.
I would appreciate anyone else with a window into this area.


Gums
Not so difficult here particularly for the economy gums. The smooth gums are best estimated by eye as in scanning the gloss cannot be properly shown. The horizontal ribbing is also easy to see.



Here are three examples of stamps with various gumming etc.


Horizontal gumming.
Horizontal gumming.

Fine net structure on thin paper.
Fine net structure on thin paper.


Economy gums. Last one on a used example.
Economy gums. Last one on a used example.


Shades
This is not so easy as usual. I will try and bring out differences in shade but with my stamps using enhancement by computer.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Progress with the Mi.51 and 52.

Sorted into more obvious types.

Scanned in pages of backs of stamps but obviously not much good to analyse, merely to show extent of stamps looked at.

Mi.51 then Michel 52 examples.

Followed by enlargements of types of paper and guns so far nailed (in my opinion).

Scans show mint copies looked at (some used on pages too).

x is horizontal gumming (Michel gum x)
x fine net is where there is a network of lines in a kind of net (as in Michel x)
y is easy as economy gum
Rest are glossy gummed examples.

There is a variable amount of woody material in the ´rest` (later will show better close ups).

I cannot assess this as to stripes at all, and that is a problem when assessing which Michel variant I have.



Mi. 51 lot a. Backs after computer alteration of contrast and saturation.
Mi. 51 lot a. Backs after computer alteration of contrast and saturation.





Mi. 51 lot b. Backs after computer alteration of contrast and saturation.
Mi. 51 lot b. Backs after computer alteration of contrast and saturation.





Mi.52 lot a. Backs after computer alteration of contrast and saturation.
Mi.52 lot a. Backs after computer alteration of contrast and saturation.


Here are criteria for differentiation.



Enlargements showing criteria used to differentiate stamps so far.
Enlargements showing criteria used to differentiate stamps so far.






Great enlargements showing criteria used to differentiate stamps so far.
Great enlargements showing criteria used to differentiate stamps so far.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Pause for thought.


So now I have the x gums sorted these include the horizontal gumming and fine net examples.

I now have the y economy gum examples.

I now have a bunch of z with smoother gum, neither with net structure nor horizontal gum ribbing, but cannot see the striping mentioned in Michel.

So I should be able to discern paper t, gum x stamps (tx) and so need to assess shades to put them in a 51 or 52 a, b or c

For the economy gum (y) I need to be able to see these paper stripes to assess whether I have paper u or paper v for Mi.51, or M.52. Mi 52 has only uy or vy examples so it is not easy to see these stripes again to say which is which. Mi52 b and c shades have only uy so this might be useful if shades can be assessed.

Same applies to the z gums however, I note that they are only for Mi.52. (52au z and 52 b uz) so this might be helpful.

The wa and wb are confined to Mi. 52a.

I think that there are difficulties in seeing the paper sort in the economy gummed stamps.

Off ramble now.

Back to looking.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Striping problem solved!

Of course it is easier when one understands that only the economy gummed stamps have the stripes in question.

So we have only Mi.51 or 52 uy and vy to ascertain!

Having realised this, the spotting of the stripes is easy.

Hold stamp up to strong light with the image (front) facing you and tilt top forwards towards yourself.

The fine lines appear.

I am assuming that the striping for climbing is where stripes are from left bottom corner to the right top corner, and for sharply falling is from top right corner to bottom left corner (as viewed from from of stamp).

This is the only way to see them and I will try and get a photograph to show the lines.

Here are the stamps rescued.

Mi.51 and Mi.52  East Saxony economy gum stamps with different climbing or descending stripes. (u and v paper differences).
Mi.51 and Mi.52 East Saxony economy gum stamps with different climbing or descending stripes. (u and v paper differences).

More on the identification tomorrow.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Yes, Michel "only" lists 10 combinations for Mi51 and 15 for Mi52. However it does suggest that it only lists the "most common" ones and that other papers etc. exist!

Then you have the varieties and plate flaws!

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is same scan but enhanced trying to bring out differences in shade. I also added the paper type definitions.

The descending Mi.51 has to be Mi.51vy (black brown) so a marker for shade.

The ascending (u) 51 is either Mi.51a uy or the much rarer Mi.51c uy, the shades seem to favour the Mi.51a uy.
Note the CV for a used Mi.51a uy is €250!

The Mi.52 are more complicated.
Mi52a has uy and vy
Mi.52b has uy (no uv.)
Mi.52c has uy and vy.

So the ascending stripes on economy gum (uy) are either Mi.52a, b or c.
The descending stripes on economy gum (vy) are either Mi52a vy or Mi. 52c vy.

So it is down to shades and this is not easy for the Mi.52. The block appears to be a duller grey than the others so maybe a 52c but this is a rare stamp CV HM €180, nom €400. The CV for Mi.52a uy is much lower.

I will work on shades more and report.






Rising and descending stripes identified on East Saxony Mi51 and Mi.52 stamps.
Rising and descending stripes identified on East Saxony Mi51 and Mi.52 stamps.


Here is a nice find showing both types I and II in a pair. I also added the type IIs found.

Any comments on positions of the I and II in pair?

Michel indicates positions for I as 1-10, 12-30, 32-50, 52-70, 72-90. 92-100.
Michel indicates positions for II as 11, 31, 51, 71, 91.

So should not the II be the left of the I or am I going mad.
Mi.51 pair showing Mi.51 types I and II and other type II examples.
Mi.51 pair showing Mi.51 types I and II and other type II examples.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

No, it is quite correct that will have Type II on left at positions: 11,12; 31,32 etc.!

(P.S. Don't think you are going mad :lol: )

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks OD1.. I should have imagined the plate face down....senility creeping in.

John

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

Talk about timing, I just received an almost complete used collection of this era! :mrgreen:
ms 2.jpg
pg 1.jpg
pg2.jpg
With this great topic having all kinds of interesting and useful information this is just what I need to start off.

Any advice about what to watch out for on these cancellations? Also how to value philatelic and CTO used stamps?

Thanks for all the hard work everyone has put into this area!

Now, how in the world to get the stamps out of their tight little pockets!?

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by DarrenK »

Nice lot of stamps Chkpoint Charlie.

It is a great way to expand you collection by getting a good collection and adding to it. The first block, Christmas Anti Fascism, is a difficult and expensive one to source. John's thread will give you some more information to look through the rest of the collection and find some gems.

I'm sure you are aware that "ND" stands for Neudruck which means reprint in English.
Always interested in trading German material especially post war period.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

DarrenK wrote:
26 Jul 2020 11:53
Nice lot of stamps Chkpoint Charlie.

It is a great way to expand you collection by getting a good collection and adding to it. The first block, Christmas Anti Fascism, is a difficult and expensive one to source. John's thread will give you some more information to look through the rest of the collection and find some gems.

I'm sure you are aware that "ND" stands for Neudruck which means reprint in English.
So, not all is at it appears, thank you for the translation! :o

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks for post Chkpoint,

Always nice to get a collection.

Also hate the pockets you describe and find that cutting the side of the plastic is easy and allows stamps to be removed without the trouble of trying the slide them out and risking damage. If you do not want to reuse the pages then slit the side.


I suspect the ND says it all. Have look at the ´features´ first shown by OldDuffer1 based on article discerning the reprints of the flag ship POTSCHTA.

I put in my ND and repeat it here showing five features identifying it.

Here its is again.

Mi.41 fake showing features making it a fake!<br />1. V shaped projection.<br />2. Blip on top left post horn<br />3. Missing is a small dot below left hand bottom post horn (covered by cancel I think ).<br />4. Tiny vertical nick at base.<br />5. Tiny white dot in 2.<br />6. Break in top right leaf.
Mi.41 fake showing features making it a fake!
1. V shaped projection.
2. Blip on top left post horn
3. Missing is a small dot below left hand bottom post horn (covered by cancel I think ).
4. Tiny vertical nick at base.
5. Tiny white dot in 2.
6. Break in top right leaf.


The Thuringia blocks are interesting (high CV too) and I was to deal with these later but I show scans below of the Michel information.


Thüringia block 1 issue 1945 Dec. Into Fascism  Michel information.
Thüringia block 1 issue 1945 Dec. Into Fascism Michel information.





Thüringia block 2 issue 1945 Dec. Christmas Social Welfare. Michel information.
Thüringia block 2 issue 1945 Dec. Christmas Social Welfare. Michel information.




Papers are

t = white to yellowish-grey with fine net structure.
v = grey to yellowish granite paper with fine net structure.
x =white to yellowish shaded wood free carton paper white horizontally applied gum.

Send enlargement scans of the blocks for its to ponder.


There are two other blocks to consider too. I only have some of the less scarce block 3 (later).

Note that these blocks all vary according to paper and perforations.

Quite a minefield again.

John

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

Enlargements really help. ;)
dresden.png
After comparing with other dresden cancels from your postings, I am sure the year for this stamp is 1946. The curved top and the fact the 4 is missing its left side also, the entire numeral is narrow compared to a "5". Does moving the date of use forward a year make it's ID easier? :?

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Chkpoint Charlie wrote:
28 Jul 2020 12:40

After comparing with other Dresden cancels from your postings, I am sure the year for this stamp is 1946. The curved top and the fact the 4 is missing its left side also, the entire numeral is narrow compared to a "5". Does moving the date of use forward a year make it's ID easier? :?
Not quite sure what your point is here, Chkpoint Charlie? Obviously the cancellation is "1946"- Mi46 was not issued until June 28th 1945! Whether this is a Mi46 or Mi63 is another matter, but judging by the paper I would tend to suggest the former.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

OldDuffer1 wrote:
28 Jul 2020 22:10
Chkpoint Charlie wrote:
28 Jul 2020 12:40

After comparing with other Dresden cancels from your postings, I am sure the year for this stamp is 1946. The curved top and the fact the 4 is missing its left side also, the entire numeral is narrow compared to a "5". Does moving the date of use forward a year make it's ID easier? :?
Not quite sure what your point is here, Chkpoint Charlie? Obviously the cancellation is "1946"- Mi46 was not issued until June 28th 1945! Whether this is a Mi46 or Mi63 is another matter, but judging by the paper I would tend to suggest the former.
The caption under your original posting is 46Ab? 27th April 1945 cancel. The question mark plus the inclusion of the cancellation date made me think there was a concern about the date, so I chimed in about it being a 1946 cancellation instead of a 1945. My heading is to say how helpful a enlargement can be to see details on a stamp. Sorry for the confusion. :?

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

The Mi.63 has definite paper falling striping as described in Michel and I can now see them easily.

Light source e.g bulb in anglepoise type set up. Stamp from front. Turn stamp towards oneself than bingo.

Very different to Mi. 46 and also has the greyish paper.

Must try this on a topic in the other thread discussing Russian Zone (quoted twice above) that of the Saxony 6pf and 12Pf Mi 85 and 86 where the striping is quoted for papers x and y.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

My new East Saxony fake :cry:
15N1
15N1
It shows all the features of the fake as listed here, wonder if the name on the back is the person who made them?
It is printed by lithography, the original is printed photogravure, very easy to tell them apart.
Is this the only known fake of this stamp? Has anyone seen others, more convincing ones?

This is a scan of the S/S that was also marked ND %
When viewed with a loupe, it is printed in 4/C process, even the black type! :(
Attachments
Thuringia 16N7b
Thuringia 16N7b

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks Chkpoint..

Indeed a superb fake.

Chkpoint fake with features added.
Chkpoint fake with features added.

I think mine shown earlier is almost as superb and cancelled as used!

Yours has a stamped ´proofing`though. Heaven knows who F. Müller is. There are several Müller proofers and non are ´F`.

The block too... at least they were both labelled ND.

What about the very expensive Christmas block? Was that a fake too?

John

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

On a lighter note here is my first attempt to show the striping.

Paper striping on Mi.63 postage stamp from East Saxony.
Paper striping on Mi.63 postage stamp from East Saxony.




The stripes are top left to bottom right on 12Pf block of Mi.63.

Helps that I have a block and single stamps are harder but stripes show in margins and generally with my lamp the dark orange shows up for striped stamps as well as being able to see the stripes run through the image for most examples.

Trick is to rotate stamp towards one holding top and bringing this forward to angle stamp against the light.

I am also assuming that Michel is describing stripes as from FRONT of stamp (it is not clear) and not as for watermarks in Michel where they are described from the back.

Might try UV lamp tonight on this, you never know.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Yes Michel does state* that striping seen from the front and watermarks from the back. Well done for managing to show this up!

*"The paper stripes are seen from the image side of the stamp towards the light (in contrast to a watermark)."

Come to think of it, that is a bit ambiguous - probably due to the fact that is translation from German! I think it means- "from the image side with the stamp held towards the light." (As you have done).

As is well known, watermarks "are shown as viewed from the back of the stamp" (Michel Specialized)

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Thank you OldD.

I was a little confused as I indicated.

Having mastered the stripes ID then back to the others with possible striping.
Makes a huge difference in CV for some e.g the Saxony ploughing BODENREFORM issues!

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

As an aside here are a few examples of defined flaws and interesting features.

Some scans show prices quoted in Philotax catalogue that reflect market estimates more accurately than Michel estimates.

Some are easy to see and others need the eye of truth magnifier.
Mi42. PFII. Many blobs appear in ´nets` in all issues,  but this is a defined flaw.
Mi42. PFII. Many blobs appear in ´nets` in all issues, but this is a defined flaw.





Mi.42 PF III. A clear break in T.
Mi.42 PF III. A clear break in T.






Mi.43IIa PF VIII. (Interesting, not interesting, as in caption).
Mi.43IIa PF VIII. (Interesting, not interesting, as in caption).







Mi.44 PF V.
Mi.44 PF V.







Mi.45 III. This has to be described to be believed).
Mi.45 III. This has to be described to be believed).

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Just to show some variation in what to expect here are a few NON flaws on Mi.52.



non flaw 1.png









non flaw 2.png











non flaw 3.png












non flaw 4.png










non flaw 5.png

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Mi52 would be a good entrant for a competition: "Find the dullest stamp"!

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Old D... I agree entirely. Shades of grey when times were hard.

A new thread here perhaps? ´Show your dullest stamp`.

No, better not.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

This issue was one of two denominations printed in litho.

hicky.png

When running an offset press, semi-dried specks of ink would adhere to the plate and print as a inked spot with a halo around it without color. We called them hickys, and would have to stop the press and remove the speck from the plate. It was a fairly common occurance happening a few times during a run, especially when using a already opened can of ink, given a few hours a opened can will form a skin of dried ink on its surface which has to be removed before using the good ink left. So any offset printed stamp with a blemish like this stamp is not a true plate flaw, even if it prints on many copies, its just a common hicky. ;)

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

Here is my Thuringia Block 1 :P
Thuringia 16N3a front.jpg
Thuringia 16N3a back.jpg
Expertized as properly used, that's good. How would it be valued with the two short perf teeth located at the bottom center and the blind perf on the lower right? There surly would be a reduction in value, roughly how much?

Just noticed that this copy is a Type V, nick in the first H, lower left corner edge piece. No premium though.

Here is a card I won on ebay last year. :?:
Thuringia 16N3a on card front.jpg
Thuringia 16N3a on card back.jpg
Same cancellation date on Christmas eve! Block 1 with the margins still attached, note the area on the card was designed to fit this! The slight offset of the cancels on the back shows that multiple copies of this card were being canceled at the same time.

Since the stamp was issued seven days earlier, a collector did have the time to design and print these cards, add the stamps and bring them to the Jena post office in the late afternoon and have them all canceled and handed back. The rubberstamped address is probably his own added at his leisure afterwards.

The surprising thing about this card was that as I was researching it I googled images of the stamp and found this exact card which was sold at a Rasdale Stamp auction on 20 May 2018.

Germany 16N3a on a Commemorative Christmas Eve 1945 card on wartime card stock. Anti Fascist sentiment posted (24.12.45) in Jena. Huge Michel catalog on cover. Nice philatelic hand back souvenir in excellent condition. Cat. Value: S.B. 120.00
Price Realized: $325.00

How could it be auctioned in May and winding up on ebay in October, going for much less then $325.

I just compared it to the expertized copy and the three stamps all show evidence of being rescreened! :cry:

So, another one bites the dust! I'm going to go lay down now.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

johnrcrow wrote:
29 Jul 2020 19:54
On a lighter note here is my first attempt to show the striping.


Image





The stripes are top left to bottom right on 12Pf block of Mi.63.

Helps that I have a block and single stamps are harder but stripes show in margins and generally with my lamp the dark orange shows up for striped stamps as well as being able to see the stripes run through the image for most examples.

Trick is to rotate stamp towards one holding top and bringing this forward to angle stamp against the light.

I am also assuming that Michel is describing stripes as from FRONT of stamp (it is not clear) and not as for watermarks in Michel where they are described from the back.

Might try UV lamp tonight on this, you never know.
I just did this to my newly purchased copies and it was easy to see the striping! Thanks for the picture!
63 vs 46A or 60a.jpg
Mi63 comes in dark pink-red (shades), value 1.50
Mi46Aa comes in red, value 2.60
Mi46ab comes in dark pink-red, value 10X
Mi60a comes in orange-red (shades), value 2.50
Mi60b comes in vermillion, value 20X

Which do you think the right stamp is, 46Aa red or 60a orange- red? :geek:

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Mi60 is perforated so unlikely to be that! (Although imperf. varieties apparently exist the likelihood of finding one used is remote!).

Judging by the paper I would say it is just a rather faded Mi46 rather than Mi63 which, as discussed above, is on greyish paper. Both stamps have very minimal value in their basic varieties. (Remember catalogue values do not represent "real life" values!)

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Lost my first reply Chkpoint

Here we go again.


1. Are you asking about the shades of the Mi.43 and Mi. 63?

Send scans at 600 and I will try and assess them.

I will use my collection to see any differences after computer enhancement. This works sometimes in showing differences not seen by eye or on normal scan. Of course you need a good number of stamps in order to have the chance of even having rare shade. The more stamps the better.

Glad the ´stripe seek` went well. Obvious when you know what you are looking for.

2.Disappointing but very good research on that card with block. I am afraid that ´philacrime` is rife on eBay and German stamps are no exception. Often stamps get passed around sometimes with sellers unaware (mmm) of them being duds.

3. Better news on the other block. I like the blind perf as it adds authenticity. Michel adds a premium for blind perf for many stamps (particularly older Empire). The nibbled perfs do not detract too much but of course people often want perfection of the 75 year old bits of paper!

Current asking prices for cancelled blocks range from €500 to €1600 depending on paper etc. You have a type V at least. Mint blocks are cheaper.. €170-€350.

I would be very wary of buying anything other than photoattested examples. I am sure that many for sale are not validated correctly.


The proof mark (sign) is Zierer. Here is information on him from:

https://www.filatelia.fi/experts/namess.html


Zierer, Hanns, H. B. Zierer, Hans Zierer, Zierer HBP (from 1991, forged). Some are dealer's marks. Certif. Germany* (all locals and OPDs 1945–6), Germany East* (Mi 182–), Germany (Third Reich and areas), Finland, Soviet Union, etc. *When BPP expert. Burglengenfeld 1976 2005, dealer, now independent expert, BPP 1968–91

Here is your sign followed by one shown in database. I am not sure what to think.


zierer.png


zierer.jpg


Thanks for illuminating the spot on stamp. I agree with description of course we see these bulls eye blobs on many issues from many countries.

I was trying to emphasise that the issues are fraught with printing abnormalities and that reference only to studies where definitive constant flaws is needed.

John

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

OldD.

Thanks for clarification.. Also stripes on the later versions are a clincher.

I assume Chk was asking about shades?

Perhaps he can clarify this. (My spell checker said calcify and that might be appropriate!)

John

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by DarrenK »

This is a copy of Thuringia Mi Block 1 that I have.

Thuringen MS.jpg
Always interested in trading German material especially post war period.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Very nice Darren.

You have some great stamps along the way (whatever that means).

I am waiting for a lottery win to buy all the most expensive German blocks....

John

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

OldDuffer1 wrote:
31 Jul 2020 21:20
Mi60 is perforated so unlikely to be that! (Although imperf. varieties apparently exist the likelihood of finding one used is remote!).

Judging by the paper I would say it is just a rather faded Mi46 rather than Mi63 which, as discussed above, is on greyish paper. Both stamps have very minimal value in their basic varieties. (Remember catalogue values do not represent "real life" values!)
I bet you have all this memorized, I was just looking at all the colors listed on the 12pf issue and never noticed this set was perforated. I been going through my Michel specialized vol 2 that I just got back from my buddy, need to get used to the format used in Michel.

Here is a Saxony Province charity stamp with a Berlin cancel
berlin cancel.jpg
Could you use stamps from other districts like this, or was it canceled as a favor for a collector?

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by DarrenK »

John, I always looked for collections with items I wanted in them.

When you are prepared to buy bigger collections it cuts the bidders down straight away. People tend to shop for what they specifically want. I've often picked up items in collections for less than what people paid for the individual item. It seems to happen less now but I've been buying on eBay and overseas auctions for over 20 years.

I started to collect Privatpost material that long ago and it was "The Poor Relative" of "proper" collecting back then. I was lucky with some of the things I was able to pick up.

But, there is always a but, I now have so much material to go through and sort out to get rid of it is a real battle. It is far too easy to head off on tangents when you pick up a couple of albums. I have albums full of specific series to go through for plate faults and you need to get your head around that specific topic and those stamps to do that effectively. If you start looking at something else the concentration needed is quickly dispersed. Sometimes life just gets in the road of stamps!

There was a period in the US in particular when WWII emigrants had reached the end of their lives and their children were selling off collections. I still remember an almost complete Berlin collection in a Davo album that didn't sell and I had made an inquiry during the auction. I received a response from the seller offering it to me for a price that I couldn't refuse and they would send it airmail for that price rather than surface. It had not attracted any bids. It was US$140! (That was about the same in AU$ at the time) The empty album was worth more than that. There was an incredible amount of material being offered. I had emails from dealers with fantastic offers every other day. They were desperate to move stuff on as they had so much coming in.

I emailed another seller to ask about some stamps in the collection I had just received. The response was, "I wouldn't have a clue, I'm clearing out dad's collection". They had shown a tiny part of a huge album and I was over the moon with what I got. I questioned the postage costs when they quoted me not realising what was there.

Another collection (which was sold by a big US dealer) had been strategically photographed. I wrote back after it arrived and suggested I would have loved to have seen it before he had cherry picked it. Stamps with incorrect watermarks in places where the right watermark was worth $1000s (the rest of the set were correct) and notes from the original collector and the stamps not as described. I got a big chunk of my purchase price back on that one eventually by dealing directly with them.

There are always swings and roundabouts and we learn as we go.
Always interested in trading German material especially post war period.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Chkpoint Charlie wrote:
01 Aug 2020 11:01

Here is a Saxony Province charity stamp with a Berlin cancelImage

Could you use stamps from other districts like this, or was it canceled as a favor for a collector?
Yes, the Soviet Zone Regional stamps could be used in any of the Soviet Zone, including Berlin. See your Michel Specialized:

"Furthermore, from the end of December 1945 to July 18 1946 the OPD issues and the local SBZ issues could be used in Berlin if the issue had not already been withdrawn. They deserve only a modest increase in value"

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks Darren for the insight into collecting, it appears ´when` is critical.... I envy the task of sorting but seem to think that you now find it more of a chore? I also agree that tangential interests interfere. The German arena is vast. so many stamps, so little time.


I am aware that this the rather overlaps other threads etc., but am glad it is blossoming.

The wisdom of OldD on when and whether stamps could be legally used, love it. Chkpoint with his probing. Keep it up.

I shall plod on with tangential stuff. I have wandered many a stamp away from the SG simplicity.

The 12Pf issues.

As I scanned in the Mi. 46, 60 and 63 I have, I will show them. This was leading to an attempt to discriminate any shades I have, NOT entirely successful.

Here are the pages scanned. Not so useful except to show extent of what I have.

Some interesting finds for the Mi.43 though touched in the other Russians in Germany thread.


Mi.46. Note the white paper as compared to the Mi 63.
Looking for the red and dark rose red!


Page of mint Mi.46.  East Saxony issues.
Page of mint Mi.46. East Saxony issues.





Used Mi.46. East Saxony issues.
Used Mi.46. East Saxony issues.






Mi.60
Looking for the orange red and vermillion.

Mint Mi.60. East Saxony issues.
Mint Mi.60. East Saxony issues.


Used Mi.60. East Saxony issues.
Used Mi.60. East Saxony issues.






More Used Mi.60. East Saxony issues with Michel colour swatches.
More Used Mi.60. East Saxony issues with Michel colour swatches.








Mi.63. All with striping paper v. All should be dark rose red.


Mi.63. mint and used East Saxony issues.
Mi.63. mint and used East Saxony issues.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

One way to assess stamps is to use the Michel colour guides book.

Here are the four Michel shades of interest in differentiating shades for the Mi.46, 60 and 63.



Michael colour chart showing red, dark rose red, orange red and zinnobar (vermilion).
Michael colour chart showing red, dark rose red, orange red and zinnobar (vermilion).




If you have read any of my other threads you will see that I try and alter saturation, contrast and brightness to enhance any differences in shade.

Here are some alterations in the Michel colour charts after enhancement. This was an attempt to see what setting might be best to examine stamps

Of course the material used for the stamps does not match that for the Michel swatches and the swatches are a uniform colour unlike the stamps that ´reflect` shade through multiparticulate matter (differences in colour particles in the ink mix and their density distribution. However, clues as to shades are often revealed.

Of course the various monitors will see what I send differently. My ´studies`refer to relative differences in my stamps only but generally if a district shade is there, one sees it significantly better as against a normal scan.


50% saturation. Clearer differentiation of colours.

Michael colour chart at 50% saturation showing red, dark rose red, orange red and zinnobar (vermilion).
Michael colour chart at 50% saturation showing red, dark rose red, orange red and zinnobar (vermilion).





50% exposure, 50% saturation.

Michael colour chart at 50% exposure, 50% saturation showing red, dark rose red, orange red and zinnobar (vermilion).
Michael colour chart at 50% exposure, 50% saturation showing red, dark rose red, orange red and zinnobar (vermilion).


So now to look at stamps with say the 50% exposure or the 50% exposure and 50% saturation?

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Here are a 46Aa ("Red") and supposed 46Ab ("Dark pink-red")(Old proofing).
46Aa.jpg
SBZ Mi46Aa
46Ab.jpg
SBZ Mi46Ab

Both scanned on the same scanner. Personally I can't tell the difference!

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

I agree with you OldD.

After messing with my Mi.46 lot I have down some conclusions.

Summed up below using enhanced scans of selected stamps.
Mi.46 . Four stamps showing inking colours.
Mi.46 . Four stamps showing inking colours.


1. I have only one stamp that approaches a pinker red (bottom stamp).

All others are distinctly red.

2. The enlargements show a small section of the stamps and the ´redness`depends on

a) the amount of red inking

b) the presence and distribution of pink ´dots and clumps` in the ink mixture.

Stamp on top right is a less inked red and shows more pink spots rather than clumps whereas bottom stamp has far more pink dots.


Enlargements help.

Mi.46 . Enlargements of four stamps showing inking colours plus an exam o0f verified full middle pice colours..
Mi.46 . Enlargements of four stamps showing inking colours plus an exam o0f verified full middle pice colours..
Not so will explained but theme is the more scattered and plentiful the pinker dots (dark rose red ink residues) , the more the stamp appears less red and hence more pink-red.

Excess inking shows that red residues tends to mask the pink in red stamps, also I noted that the pinker areas (rose red residues) in red stamps were clumped.

So the distribution and amount of red and rose red pigments in the ink mixture determines what might be assessed as a shade. Not a surprise and typical of all stamps looked at.

A reminder of the Michel colours when enhanced as for stamps. The dark rose red appears pink and red appears a more orange red.

All is in the mix!

michel rot and dark rose bbbb.png

I have not idea whether this helps or not? I am sure I can find better examples!

Is I propose I got one 46Ab from my lot!

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

The Mi.63 are easy.

First they all have the striped paper.

The paper is definitely grey and they only have one reported shade.

So job done.

Here is comparison of Mi.46 red with anyone of the Mi.63.

The enhancement washes out the grey paper tone for Mi.63.

Note that the Mi.63 shows predominantly pink shade inking with very little red after enhancement.

This is what we are looking for with the M.46Ab!
Comparison of Mi.46 and Mi 63 enhanced scans.
Comparison of Mi.46 and Mi 63 enhanced scans.








Not so easy for the Mi.60 where there is a scarcer vermillion (zinnobar) shade to be found with higher CV as against the common orange-red.


Here are the Michel colours normal and then after 50% brightness and 50% saturation enhancement.
The enhancement really brings out the orange red.


Normal scan of Michel colours Orange red and Zinnobar.
Normal scan of Michel colours Orange red and Zinnobar.

Enhanced scan 50% brightness, 50% saturation scan of Michel colours Orange red and Zinnobar.
Enhanced scan 50% brightness, 50% saturation scan of Michel colours Orange red and Zinnobar.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Very interesting- here are the 2 "brightened up":
46Aa.jpg
SBZ Mi46Aa
46Ab.jpg
SBZ Mi46Ab

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

A little more difference OldDS?


Back to the Mi.60.

Not much joy.

Basically I can discern possibly 2 shades in my lot.

Here is an eight stamp sample representing overall findings.
Top line are redder than bottom line (I would assess those as vermillion in other circumstances).



Scan of 8 Mi.60 used East Saxon stamps.
Scan of 8 Mi.60 used East Saxon stamps.


Here are the same stamps with enhancement.


Enhanced scan of 8 Mi.60 used East Saxon stamps.
Enhanced scan of 8 Mi.60 used East Saxon stamps.






Here are the enhanced enlargements of the ´S`in ´POST`.



Enlarged ´S`from ´POST`of  8 used Mi.60 East Saxon stamps.
Enlarged ´S`from ´POST`of 8 used Mi.60 East Saxon stamps.



So these are probably orange red shades as they appear to be about half and half in my lot. The 60b (vermillion) has a highish CV and I assume is scarce.


Here is two mint contrasted after enhancement, again what is seen throughout my mint lot. Michel swatches attached at top.

Basically a dead end. I will have to check the vermillion (zinnobar) swatches.




Comparison of 2 mint MI.60 typifying mint shades seen in my lot.
Comparison of 2 mint MI.60 typifying mint shades seen in my lot.
The things one does!

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

I did have a find whilst beavering away, so not all a waste of time.

Mi.60V. Thin left hand border .

Mi.60 PF V, thin left hand border.
Mi.60 PF V, thin left hand border.





Comparison of normal (left of scan)  and thin left hand border (right of scan) on Mi.60 East Saxony stamp.
Comparison of normal (left of scan) and thin left hand border (right of scan) on Mi.60 East Saxony stamp.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

johnrcrow posted:I am aware that this the rather overlaps other threads etc., but am glad it is blossoming.

The wisdom of OldD on when and whether stamps could be legally used, love it. Chkpoint with his probing. Keep it up.

I shall plod on with tangential stuff. I have wandered many a stamp away from the SG simplicity.

Thanks for the encouragement! :ugeek:

Also OldD for kindly answering all of my questions.
I am studying my Michel German Specialized 2015/2016 2nd edition. It took me awhile just to find out what Klb. means! :roll:

I just finished going through the entire collection and separated out all of the faulty stamps, still on the fence about the two short perforation teeth on the Thuringia block 1. Picky, picky, picky. :!:

I need to do close up scans like both of you do. Do you think anyone would like a side by side comparison of the rescreening on the fake block 1?

I emailed the firm about the fake items and of coarse they are not pleased. So I have to make a valuation on all the sound stamps and determine if I am satisficed with what I paid. They let me pay over time for both my Berlin used collection (complete) and this Soviet Occupation collection (almost complete). So I will take that into consideration.

My next question to everyone is that quite a few of the cancels are favor canceled or cto. How do you value this type of 1945 to 1949 material when used has a much higher catalog value then mint? :?: :?: :?: :?:

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is a link I should have added earlier dealing with Berlin and Brandenburg stamps.


https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=86850




I mentioned some interesting finds when messing with the 12Pf Mi.46.

Here they are.

I cannot find any reference to the postmaster separations involving the rouletting shown in first two scans.

The rouletting looks like a ´sewing machine job`and varies from about 13 to 16!!


Mi.46, East Saxony stamps showing rouletting,
Mi.46, East Saxony stamps showing rouletting,










Mi.46, East Saxony stamps showing rouletting, (ii).
Mi.46, East Saxony stamps showing rouletting, (ii).











MI.46. East Saxony stamps. Showing flaw II, left lower post horn connected. Top stamp with rouletting.
MI.46. East Saxony stamps. Showing flaw II, left lower post horn connected. Top stamp with rouletting.










The full middle pieces do pose problems. Are they a result of mere over inking?

The stamps command a CV premium.
Mi.46 East Saxony stamps, block of four with full middle pieces.
Mi.46 East Saxony stamps, block of four with full middle pieces.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Here are some Mi.63 scans showing normal and full middle piece varieties.

Mi.62auI is shown as having full middle piece in Michel CV €20 mint, €30 used.

Mi.62. Block. East Saxony stamps.
Mi.62. Block. East Saxony stamps.








Mi.62. Block of 4 showing full middle pieces. East Saxony stamps.
Mi.62. Block of 4 showing full middle pieces. East Saxony stamps.









Mi.62. Block of 6 showing full middle pieces. East Saxony stamps.
Mi.62. Block of 6 showing full middle pieces. East Saxony stamps.





Interesting to look at shades of blocks.

Mi.62auI is dark red violet.
Mi. 62bu is grey violet as in Michel.

The normal block seems to be a Mi. 62bu?



Mi.62 blocks compared normal scan (top) and enhanced scan (bottom).
Mi.62 blocks compared normal scan (top) and enhanced scan (bottom).

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