Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

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johnrcrow
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Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

I have resisted this (yet another German postage stamp thread) until now.

Once one has assembled the albums as to issues, determined the shades, found the flaws, measured the perforations, sorted the watermarks, measured the stamp widths and paper thicknesses, assessed the overprints, etc., then what?

Well, if you are a collector you have probably assembled thousands of stamps above and beyond the specific albums and of course many have cancellations. They are the left overs of a communication, a letter, a parcel, or sit more proudly on a complete envelope or more precariously on a piece ripped, or cut more carefully from a postal item.

The German cancellations are no exception to this complicated cancels area. Complicated in that there are thousands of different cancellations. Complicated since there are periods when cancellations were (are) faked to boost the value of used stamps e.g in the high inflation era in Germany.

I intend here to look at my stamps and find examples of basic cancellation types and maybe push a little into more specialised areas with the help of others.

There is an excellent stempeldatenbank by stampsX.com that I use to help me deciphering cancels. I also use the expertise there to formulate my attempt here to simplify things. (Stempel = cancel/stamp). I will refer to this as the databank from now on. Of course I (we) may find cancels on issues associated with towns that have not been recorded by the databank and can submit these for inclusion.

https://www.stampsx.com/ratgeber/stempel-datenbank.php

I would appreciate others scanning in any interesting cancels, particularly those of excellent quality (completeness and clarity). I also point out that starting this thread by no means I am an expert as with other German threads and I am open to correction and enlightenment.

I can find little information about the rarity of cancels so it is difficult to ´price` any in terms off CV. If others have a handle on then please tell me. Trawling eBay etc., does give an idea as to what is being asked for certain cancels reflecting overall popularity I suppose.


I have attempted to translate the German descriptions and it is fairy obvious from the diagrams what we are looking for. Any corrections welcome.

I emphasise that this is a basic overview and there are many variations within each of the blocks shown.

The databank also has links to other bodies showing detailed cancel types.

I hope this is of some interest.

As for me it will help find a use for the thousands of stamps in stock books and maybe throw up something interesting.




Overview of cancellations.

The databank gives the following breakdown of the cancels. I have rearranged these as below.


Scan 1.
Zackenkranz Stempel = Spiked wreath stamp.<br />Werbestempel = Advertising machine cancel.
Zackenkranz Stempel = Spiked wreath stamp.
Werbestempel = Advertising machine cancel.








Scan 2.

Gitter Nummernstempel = Numbered grid (Gitter)  cancel.<br />Geschlossener Mühlradstempel = Closed mill wheel cancel.<br />Offener Mühlradstempel = Open mill wheel cancel.<br />Rost-stempel = Rust cancel (I need that explaining).<br />Hufeisenstempel Mühlradstempel = Horseshoe stamp mill wheel cancel.<br />Sonderformen = Special shapes.<br />Vieleckstempel = Polygonal cancels.<br />Balken Nummernstempal = Barred cancel.<br />Klaucke-Stempel = Cancels made by Klaucke.
Gitter Nummernstempel = Numbered grid (Gitter) cancel.
Geschlossener Mühlradstempel = Closed mill wheel cancel.
Offener Mühlradstempel = Open mill wheel cancel.
Rost-stempel = Rust cancel (I need that explaining).
Hufeisenstempel Mühlradstempel = Horseshoe stamp mill wheel cancel.
Sonderformen = Special shapes.
Vieleckstempel = Polygonal cancels.
Balken Nummernstempal = Barred cancel.
Klaucke-Stempel = Cancels made by Klaucke.







Scan 3.

Zweizeiliger Langstempel = Two line long cancel.<br />Vierring  Langstempel = Three line long cancel.<br />Vierzeiliger  Langstempel = Four line long cancel.<br />Driering Nummernstempel = Three ring numbered cancel.<br />Vierring Nummernstempel = Four ring numbered cancel.<br />Fünfring Nummernstempel =Five ring numbered cancel.<br />Punknummernstempel = Point numbered cancel.<br />Zweiring Nummernstemp = Two ring numbered cancel (needs better description).<br />Strichstempel = Line cancel.
Zweizeiliger Langstempel = Two line long cancel.
Vierring Langstempel = Three line long cancel.
Vierzeiliger Langstempel = Four line long cancel.
Driering Nummernstempel = Three ring numbered cancel.
Vierring Nummernstempel = Four ring numbered cancel.
Fünfring Nummernstempel =Five ring numbered cancel.
Punknummernstempel = Point numbered cancel.
Zweiring Nummernstemp = Two ring numbered cancel (needs better description).
Strichstempel = Line cancel.








Scan 4.
Einzeiliger Rahmenstempel = Single-line framed cancel.<br />Zweizeiliger Rahmenstempel = Two lined framed cancel.<br />Dreizeilige Rahmenstempel = Three lined framed cancel.<br />Einzeiliger Langstempel = Single-line long cancel.<br />Steigbügelform = Stirrup shaped cancel.<br />Sonderstempel Motivstempel = Special motive cancel.<br />Ovaler steeple = Oval cancel.<br />Halbkreisstempel = Semi circular cancel.
Einzeiliger Rahmenstempel = Single-line framed cancel.
Zweizeiliger Rahmenstempel = Two lined framed cancel.
Dreizeilige Rahmenstempel = Three lined framed cancel.
Einzeiliger Langstempel = Single-line long cancel.
Steigbügelform = Stirrup shaped cancel.
Sonderstempel Motivstempel = Special motive cancel.
Ovaler steeple = Oval cancel.
Halbkreisstempel = Semi circular cancel.







Scan 5.

Kreisstempel = Circular cancel.<br />Kreis/Brücke zwei Segmente = Circular cancel with bridge and two segments.<br />Kreis und Segment oben = Circle cancel with one segment above.<br />Kreis und Segment under = Circle cancel with one segment below.<br />Kreis Gitter stempel = Circular cancel with two segments with vertical bars.
Kreisstempel = Circular cancel.
Kreis/Brücke zwei Segmente = Circular cancel with bridge and two segments.
Kreis und Segment oben = Circle cancel with one segment above.
Kreis und Segment under = Circle cancel with one segment below.
Kreis Gitter stempel = Circular cancel with two segments with vertical bars.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Almost straight away I have to deflect attention away from spare stamps to albums to see what earlier cancels I have.


I will start with Three, flour and five ring numbered cancels.

Then onto the millwheel cancels.

Then the Numbered grid cancels.

No doubt I will deviate at some point.


Three, flour and five ring numbered cancels.

Baden 1851 to 1864 predominantly (but not always) show ring cancels Mainly 5 ring. I show 2 pages from my album illustrating this.

Similarly, Thurn and Taxis stamps show rings for the same period (mainly 4 rings).

Two pages are shown for these from my album then enlargements from each State. .

An interesting collecting theme is to try and get all the various numbers reflecting the towns where the stamps were cancelled. Not an easy task as there are very many depending on which state is chosen. More below on this.


Scan 6. Album page 1 of early Baden postage stamps.
Album page 1 of early Baden Postage stamps.
Album page 1 of early Baden Postage stamps.






Scan 7. Album page 2 of early Baden postage stamps.

Album page 2 of early Baden Postage stamps.
Album page 2 of early Baden Postage stamps.






Scan 8. Album page 1 of Thurn and Taxis postage stamps.
Album page 1 of early  Thurn and Taxis Postage stamps.
Album page 1 of early Thurn and Taxis Postage stamps.







Scan 9. Album page 1 of Thurn and Taxis postage stamps.
Album page 2 of early Thurn and Taxis Postage stamps.
Album page 2 of early Thurn and Taxis Postage stamps.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Here are a few close ups taken from page above.

Scan 10.
Baden cancel of five rings plus number 57.
Baden cancel of five rings plus number 57.







Scan 11.
Baden cancel 5 rings  plus number 8 or 2?
Baden cancel 5 rings plus number 8 or 2?








Scan 12.
Baden five ring cancels with fairly clear numbers.
Baden five ring cancels with fairly clear numbers.









Scan 13.
Baden five ring cancels with partial or unclear numbers.
Baden five ring cancels with partial or unclear numbers.








Scan 14. Three ring cancel Only one found.

Thurn and Taxis with three ring cancel. Number 220 (226?).
Thurn and Taxis with three ring cancel. Number 220 (226?).








Scan 15. Four ring panel with clear number.
Thurn and Taxis 4 ring cancel with clear number 29.
Thurn and Taxis 4 ring cancel with clear number 29.








Scan 16.
Thurn and Taxis four ring cancels with variable numbers observable.
Thurn and Taxis four ring cancels with variable numbers observable.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Thurn and Taxis

The most common rings with number cancellation is the four ring cancellation (as also seen in my stamps).

Two types of the four ring cancels exist one with a large spaces between the rings the other with smaller spaces.

Three rings with number are far less common.

Forged cancels were made on the large number of many remainders of unused stamps to increase their value (non-cancelled stamps CVs are much lower).

The forger Fournier probably made forgeries of these stamp for '8'(?) (I need to look more carefully at the peculiar ´8 on one of mine above), '95', '195', '142' and '34'.

The numerals assigned to different towns for the Thurn and Taxis postage stamps range from number 1 to 424 and 573.

Here they are in case someone wants to save numbers with associated town (why not).

1 : Abterode
2 : Allendorf
3 : Amöneburg
4 : Barchfeld/Herrenbreitgn.
5 : Bebra
6 : Bergen
7 : Birstein
8 : Bischhausen
9 : Bockenheim
10 : Borken
11 : Breitenb. a. H.
12 : Brotterode
13 : Carlshafen
14 : Cassel
15 : Eiterfeld
16 : Eschwege
17 : Felsberg
18 : Frankenberg
19 : Friedewald
20 : Frielendorf
21 : Fritzlar
22 : Fronhausen
23 : Fulda
24 : Gelnhausen
25 : Grebenstein
26 : Grossallmerode
27 : Grossenlüder
28 : Gudensberg
29 : Hanau
30 : Helsa
31 : Hersfeld
32 : Hofgeismar
33 : Homberg
34 : Hünfeld
35 : Jesberg
36 : Kirchhain
37 : Langenselbold
38 : H. Lichtenau
39 : Marburg
40 : Meerholz
41 : Melsungen
42 : Morschen
43 : Nauheim
44 : Naumberg
45 : Nenndorf
46 : Nenterhausen
47 : Netra
48 : Neuhof
49 : Neukirch b. H.
50 : Neukirch b. Z.
51 : Neustadt
52 : Niederaula
53 : Oberaula
54 : Oberkaufungen
55 : Obernkirchen
56 : Oldendorf
57 : Rauschenberg
58 : Rinteln
59 : Rodenberg
60 : Rosenthal
61 : Rotenburg
62 : Sachsenhagen
63 : Salmünster
64 : Schenklengsf.
65 : Schlüchtern
66 : Schmalkalden
67 : Schwarzenfels
68 : Sontra
69 : Spangenberg
70 : Steinau
71 : Steinb.- Hallbg.
72 : Treysa
73 : Trendelburg
74 : Veckerhagen
75 : Volksmarsen
76 : Wabern
77 : Wächtersbach
78 : Waldcappel
79 : Wanfried
80 : Westuffeln (short period)/Körner
81 : Wetter
82 : Windecken
83 : Witzenhausen
84 : Wolfhagen
85 : Ziegenhain
86 : Zierenberg
87 : Zimmersrode
88 : Alsfeld
89 : Alzey
90 : Assenheim
91 : Babenhausen
92 : Battenberg
93 : Beerfelden
94 : Berstadt
95 : Bensheim
96 : Biedenkopf
97 : Bingen
98 : Bodenheim
99 : Brensbach
100 : Büdingen
101 Bürstadt
102 : Butzbach
103 : Castel
104 : Darmstadt
105 : Dieberg
106 : Eberstadt
107 : Echzell
108 : Engelrod
109 : Erbach i. O.
110 : Friedberg
111 : Fürfeld
112 : Fürth
113 : Geldern
114 : Gernsheim
115 : Giessen
116 : Gladenbach
117 : Griesheim
118 : Gross-Gerau
119 : Grünberg
120 : Guntersblum
121 : Heppenheim
122 : Herbstein
123 : Hirschhorn
124 : Höchst i. O.
125 : Homberg a. d. O.
126 : Hungen
127 : König
128 : Lampertheim
129 : Langen
130 : Laubach
131 : Lauterbach
132 : Lich
133 : Lorsch
134 : Mainz
135 : Michelstadt
136 : Neckar-Steinach
137 : Nidda
138 : Nieder Ingelheim
139 : Nieder Olm
140 : Oberramstadt
141 : Odernhaim
134 : Mainz
135 : Michelstadt
136 : Neckar-Steinach
137 : Nidda
138 : Nieder Ingelheim
139 : Nieder Olm
140 : Oberramstadt
141 : Odernhaim
142 : Offenbach
143 : Oppenheim
144 : Ortenberg
145 : Osthofen
146 : Pfeddersheim
147 : Pfungstadt
148 : Reichalsh. i. O.
149 : Reinheim
150 : Rödelheim
151 : Romrod
152 : Schlitz
153 : Schotten
154 : Seligenstadt
155 : Sprendlingen
156 : Stockstadt
157 : Gross-Umstadt
158 : Vilbel
159 : Vöhl
160 : Westhofen
161 : Wimpfen
162 : Wöllstein
163 : Worms
164 : Wörrstadt
165 : Zwingenberg
66 : Biebrich
167 : Braubach
168 : Camberg
169 : Camp (very rare cancel) used on the first issue of Thurn and Taxis (lost cancellor).
170 : Caub
171 : Cronberg
172 : Diez
173 : Dillenberg
174 : Eltville
175 : Ems
176 : Flörsheim
177 : Freilingen
178 : Geisenheim
179 : Hachenburg
180 : Hadamar
181 : Haigar
182 : Hattersheim
183 : Herborn
184 : Herschbach
185 : Hochheim
186 : Höchst am Main
187 : Höhr
188 : Holzhausen a. d. Heide
189 : Idstein
190 : Kirberg
191 : Königstein
192 : Limburg
191 : Lorch
192 : Marienberg
193 : Montabaur
194 : Nassau
195 : Nastätten
196 : Neughof (Nassau)/Londorf
197 : Niederlahnstein/Oberlahnstein
200 : Östrich
201 : Reichelsheim (Nassau)
202 : Rennerod
203 : Rüdesheim
204 : Runkel
205 : St. Goarshausen
206 : Schlangenbad
207 : Langenschwalb
208 : Selters
209 : Singhofen/Heldenberg
210 : Soden
211 : Usingen
212 : Wallmerod
213 : Weilburg
214 : Westerburg
215 : Wiesbaden
216 : Winkel
217 : Würges/Langeweisen
218 : Homburg von der Höhe
219 : Meisenheim
220 : Frankfurt am Main (Frankfort)
221 : Apolda
222 : Auma
223 : Berka a. d. Werra
224 : Berka a. d. Ilm
225 : Blankenheim
226 : Bürgel
227 : Buttelstedt
228 : Buttlar/Herleshausen
229 : Buttstädt
230 : Dermbach
231 : Eisenach
232 : Königsberg i.S. (Coburg)
233 : Geisa
234 : Jena
235 : Ilmenau
236 : Kaltennordheim
237 : Kranichfeld
238 : Marksuhl
239 : Münchenbernsdorf
240 : Neustadt
241 : Ostheim
242 : Ruhla
243 : Stadtremda
244 : Stadt Hengstfeld
245 : Stadtsulza
246 : Tiefenort
247 : Triptis
248 : Vacha
249 : Vieselbach
250 : Weida
251 : Weimar
252 : Camburg
253 : Eisfeld
254 : Gräfenthal
255 : Helburg
256 : Hildburghausen
257 : Liebenstein
258 : Meiningen
259 : Pösneck
260 : Römhild
261 : Saalfeld
262 : Salzungen
263 : Schalkau
264 : Schwallung/Wernhausen
265 : Sonneberg
266 : Steinach
267 : Themar
268 : Wallendorf
269 : Wasungen
270 : Coburg
271 : Elgersdorf
272 : Friedrichroda
273 : Gotha
274 : Neudietendorf
275 : Neustadt bei Coburg/Neustadt a.d. Heide
276 : Ohrdruf
277 : Rodach
278 : Tambach
279 : Waltershausen
280 : Zella St.Blasi
281 : Arnstadt
282 : Grossbreitenbach
283 : Gehren
284 : Blankenburg
285 : Königssee
286 : Leutenberg
287 : Oberweissbach
288 : Rudolstadt
289 : Stadtilm
290 : Ebersdorf
291 : Gera
292 : Greiz
293 : Hirschberg
294 : Hohenleuben
295 : Köstritz
296 : Lobenstein
297 : Saalburg
298 : Schleiz
299 : Zeulenroda
300 : Hamburg
301 : Bremen
302 : Lubeck
303 : Gammertingen
304 : Haigerloch
305 : Hechingen
306 : Sigmaringen
307 : Creuzburg
308 : Gerstungen
309 : Grossneuhausen
310 : Mihla
311 : Olbersleben
312 : Georgenthal
313 : Nazza
314 : Tanna
315 : Reichensachsen
316 : Alverdissen
317 : Barntrup
318 : Blomberg
319 : Boesingfeld
320 : Bückeburg
321 : Detmold
322 : Horn
323 : Lage
324 : Langenholz
325 : Lemgo
326 : Oerlinghausen
327 : Rischenau
328 : Salzuflen
329 : Schieder
330 : Schlangen
331 : Schoetmar
332 : Schwalenberg
333 : Stadthagen
334 : Varenholz
335 : Ostrach
336 : Strassberg
337 : Klosterwal
338 : Lehesten
339 : Oberursel
340 : Obertiefenbach/Friedrichsdorf
341 : Ulrichstein
342 : Waldmichelbach
343 : Altenstadt
344 : Niederwöllstadt
345 : Grebenhain
346 : Haina
347 : Kirtorf
348 : Gräfentonna
349 : Trochtelfingen
350 : Meinberg
351 : Wehen
352 : Bieber
353 : Sonnefeld
354 : Alsbach
355 : Ruppertenrod
356 : Walldorf
357 : Obertiefenbach
358 : Friedrichswerth
359 : Gr. Steinheim
360 : Jugendh. a. d. B.
361 : Hagenburg
362 : Ichtershausen
363 : Catzenelnbogen
364 : Thiergarten/Oldisleben
365 : Dettingen
366 : Steinhude
367 : Undenheim
368 : Fraureuth
369 : Birkenau
370 : Jugenh. i. Rhh.
371 : Staudernheim
372 : Oberhof b. Ohrdruf
373 : Grossrudestedt
374 : Stotternheim
375 : Schlossvippach
376 : Lindenfels
377 : Werra
378 : Schwarzburg
379 : Wurzbach
380 : Plaue
381 : Rüsselsheim
382 : Ermenrod
383 : Not used
384 : Lollar
385 : Burghaun
386 : Viernheim
387 : Neuhaus am Rennweg
388 : Klein-Schmalkalden
389 : Lauscha
390 : Hofbeiber
391 : Alsheim
392 : Oberrad
393 : Hohenhausen
394 : Esseratsweiler
395 : Auerbach a. B.
396 : Neustadt i. O.
397 : Ransbach
398 : Laurenburg
399 : Raboldshausen
400 : Dornburg
401 : Grafinau
402 : Berga an der Elst
403 : Treis
404 : Gross-Bierberau
405 : Lang Goens
406 : Eilsen
407 : Ober Ingelheim
408 : Gemunden in Kurhessen
409 : Imnau
410 : Neu Isenburg
411 : Biblis
412 : Teichwolframsdorf
413 : Hoeringhausen
414 : Niederrad
415 : Neustadt a. Rennsteig
416 : Oberneubrunn
417 : Bromskirchen
418-420 : Not issued
421 : Merxheim
422 : Not issued
423 : Eibelshausen
424 : Johannesberg
573 : Halle

Baden rings wth number

The most common cancel is five ring cancel with a number in the center. Black and red cancels are possible.

Here is a list of towns associated wth numbers in rings.

1: Aach
2: Aachern
4: Aglasterhausen
5: Allensbach
7: Appenweiler
8: Baden (Adelsheim?)
10: Beuggen Rheinfelden
11: Biberach
12: Bischofsheim
16: Bonndord(?)
17: Boxberg
18: Bretten
19: Bruchsal
20: Buchen
21: Bühl
24: Carlsruhe
25: Constanz
27: Donaueschingen(?)
28: Durlach (I've seen this cancel in red)
31: Eberbach
33: Eichesheim
35: Elzach
36: Emmendingen
38: Engen
39: Eppingen
41: Ettenheim
42: Ettlingen
43: Freiburg
45: Furtwangen
47: Geisingen
48: Gengensbach
50: Gernsbach
53: Haltingen
55: Haslach
56: Hausach
57: Heidelberg
58: Heiligenberg
61: Höllsteig
62: Hornberg
63: Hüflingen
68: Kehl
69: Kenzingen
73: Krautheim
74: Krotzingen
75: Königsschaffhausen
76: Königshofen
77: Meckesheim
78: Ladenburg
79: Lahr
80: Langenbrücken
81: Langen - Denzlingen
83: Löffingen
84: Lörrach
85: Ludwigshafen
86: Malsch
87: Mannheim
91: Möhringen
92: Möskirch
94: Mühlberg(?)
95: Müllheim
97: Mannheim
98: Neckarbischofsheim
100: Neustadt
101: Oberkirch
103: Oberschefflenz
104: Offenburg
107: Osterburken
108: Petersthal
109: Pforzheim
111: Philippsburg
112: Radolfzell
115: Rastatt
117: Riedern
121: Säckingen
122: Salem
123: St.Blasien
127: Schiltach
129: Schönau
130: Schopfheim
131: Schwetzingen
132: Singen
133: Sinsheim
134: Stadel
135: Staufen
138: Stetten
139: Stockach
142: Sulzburg
143: Todtnau (?)
145: Triberg
146: Ueberlingen
148: Villingen
149: Vöhrenbach
150: Waghäusel
152: Waldkirch
153: Waldshut
156: Weinheim
157: Wertheim
159: Wiesloch
160: Wilferdingen
161: Wolfach
163: Zell-Wiesen
166: Gondelsheim
170: Basel Badische Bahnhof
172: Weiterdingen
173: Steinbach
174: Mannheim Bahnhof
175: Baden Bahnhof
177: Karlsruhe


Of course other types of cancels appear on the stamps of this era and these can be dealt with later.

However, here is one on another page that I will show. I have only found this one example.

Scan 17. Zackenkranz cancel. Also called `Uhrradstempel' (Clock wheel stamp) with number 17´.


Zackenkranz cancel on Baden German postage stamp.
Zackenkranz cancel on Baden German postage stamp.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Other Stated have rings with numbers.

Scan 18. Page of German postage stamps Prussia.
Page of German postage stamps Prussia. Three four ring with number on page can be observed.
Page of German postage stamps Prussia. Three four ring with number on page can be observed.


The Prussian numeral cancels always consist of four rings with numerals in the center and were used from 1850 to 31 March 1859.

A 'dot' is added when confusion could arise such as in '66.' or '99.'

Each numeral belongs to a different city (each city only had one number, even if there were multiple post offices, even railway offices belonging to the city had the same number). The size of the numerals varies from 4¼ mm to 5¼ mm. The numerical cancellations range from number 1 to 1995.

If anyone wants the complete list and more details then, I will post.





Scan 19. Page of German postage stamps Schleswig Holstein.

Page of German postage stamps from Schleswig Holstein.[/b].
Page of German postage stamps from Schleswig Holstein.[/b].







Scan 20. German postage stamps from Schleswig Holstein with 3 circles and number inside.

Three postage  stamps from Schleswig Holstein showing there circles and number inside.
Three postage stamps from Schleswig Holstein showing there circles and number inside.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by Greaden »

The numerals for Schleswig and Holstein were the same as for Danish stamps used in those cities.

For Thurn and Taxis, the cancels for the 5 and 10 sgr stamps are especially likely to be forged, as they are far more valuable used than mint. The font on the examples shown here does not look right.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by Greaden »

For TnT, #220 is by far the most common, as Frankfurt was their base of operations and the largest city they served, if you don't count their office in Hamburg. #134 for Mainz is the second most common.

Is there any list of other TnT postmarks that indicates which are rarer than others? I am starting to get suspicious of some from small villages such as Lage (323) which I find regularly.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Now to tackle the Geschlossener Mühlradstempel = Closed mill wheel cancel and Offener Mühlradstempel = Open mill wheel cancels.

Open and closed mill wheel postage stamp designs.
Open and closed mill wheel postage stamp designs.
The source here are the issues from Bavaria.

On 1st August 1850 the closed mill wheel cancels (geschlossenen or voller Mühlradstempel in German) were introduced. The cancel was applied to the stamps, while the towncancel was applied elsewhere on the letter.

Initially 402 of such cancels were introduced.

Each number corresponded to a town arranged alphabetically.

Additional new post offices received new numbers and were introduced in groups (also arranged alphabetically).

All closed millwheel cancels have 16 rays (except for number '217' used in Munich which has 17 rays).

The closed millwheel cancels were abandoned on 20 November 1856 and the post offices required to send their cancellers back to Munich.

From that tome until 1 December 1856 only town cancels were used on stamps. A redistribution of the numbers followed from 1 December 1856 onwards based again on alphabetical order.

Cancels that were unusable were replaced by a new type the open millwheel cancel (Offener Mühlradstempel).

Also the open millwheel cancel 'B.P.' was introduced ('B.P'= Bahnpost or railway cancel).

New post offices received new numbers again until the number 922 was reached. Open millwheel cancels exist in several sizes. Officially the last date for the use of millwheel cancels was 9 March 1869 (though some are known to exist beyond that date).

From 10 March 1869 onwards towncancels were used once again. Since several numbers were re-assigned it is not always possible to ascertain in which town the stamp was cancelled.

Scan 21. Page of my Bavaria stamps.
Album page of Bavaria Postage stamps.
Album page of Bavaria Postage stamps.
One can have a deal of ´film`with there. Here ae a couple of pages showing cancels.



Scan 22.
bayern page 2 for SB.jpeg


Scan 23.
bayern page 3for SB.jpeg
I will not try and detail these as yet.

I hope someone can illuminate the cancels further aside to the need to differentiate the basic stamps. Work in progress then. I can enlarge any example(s) as anyone wishes.
Last edited by johnrcrow on 12 Oct 2020 05:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Excellent Greaden.

I am glad that an expert is posting.

As to forged cancels, I am in anyone´s hands concerning the authenticity. I can make enlargements if that helps? Anyone with information on forgeries please post.

Skimming through, as I am, I welcome some deeper debate at any point and examples of cancels fake or otherwise.


Quoted from you Greaden.

Is there any list of other TnT postmarks that indicates which are rarer than others? I am starting to get suspicious of some from small villages such as Lage (323) which I find regularly?

Answer
No list that I know of but Stempeldatenbank referred to in first post has 5 examples of the 323 (Lage ).

Note from Greaden.

The numerals for Schleswig and Holstein were the same as for Danish stamps used in those cities.


Answer
I am assuming that we now call these the Danish cancel - DÄNISCHE NR.STEMPEL?

Many thanks for posting and please pile in more.

One reason I have to starting a thread is to learn and reorganise my stamps accordingly (weed out the weeds maybe).

John

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by Greaden »

I am no expert but neither that nor my ignorance of the German language is stopping me from collecting the postmarks of the member states of the German Confederation.

Here is a Danish stamp postmarked in Ratzeburg, then the capital of the Duchy of Launeburg, whose duke happened to also be King of Denmark.
ratzeburg.jpeg

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by Greaden »

Here is a Danish 3-ring postmark on a Holstein stamp for the town of Eutin, #115.

Eutin was in the Prince-Bishopric of Luebeck, not to be confused with the nearby Hanseatic city. The Prince-Bishopric was an exclave of Oldenburg.

In the early nineteenth century, the last Prince-Bishop was the regent for Oldenburg, so the powers that tried to consolidate the German States thought it would be simplest to grant this small territory on the outskirts of Luebeck to Oldenburg. Denmark ran the postal system, since Danish territories surrounded it.
eutin.jpeg

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by Greaden »

The "Balken Nummernstempal = Barred cancel" described above was used in Brunswick.

Here is a sampler of Brunswick postmarks:
bruns-stempel.jpeg
42 is Thedinghausen, a small village outside Bremen. It is Brunswick's most far-flung exclave.
10 is Calvorde, in an excalve NE of the city of Braunschweig.
36 is Salder, near Wolfenbüttel.
Also included are cancels showing the city name for Holzminden and for Braunschweig.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Excellent again Greaden.

Historical relevance too. Some nice pieces.

The Brunswick sampler also useful in showing more types. Barred cancels and the long 2 line cancel plus the 2 ring.

I will plod on and see what other information is forthcoming.

I can well see the thread expanding into more specialised areas and that is useful for me at least.

John

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Gitter Nummernstempel.

Saxony used elliptical cancels with crossing bars (from 11th March 1852).

Initially there were no numbers inside (so called the ‘Vollgitterstempel’ - full grid, so an addition to diagrams shown initially.

Later, a number corresponding to each post office was added (so-called 'Nummernstempel'). Numbers 1 and 2 were issued in December 1852, the others from middle 1855 onwards.


Scan 24. Page of German Postage stamps from Saxony.
Page of German Postage stamps from Saxony.
Page of German Postage stamps from Saxony.


Here are some enlargements.

Scan 25. Saxony postage stamps showing full grids without number. Not always clear numbers Suppose this gives an overview of what to expect?.

Saxony postages stamps showing full grids without number.
Saxony postages stamps showing full grids without number.





Scan 26. Saxony postages stamps showing numbered grids.

Saxony postage stamps showing grid with number 8 of Chemnitz (three sizes of the number '8' exist)
Saxony postage stamps showing grid with number 8 of Chemnitz (three sizes of the number '8' exist)



sax 2 b.png



sax2 c.png




sax 2 d.png



Saxony postage stamps showing grid with number 8 of Chemnitz (three sizes of the number '8' exist)
Saxony postage stamps showing grid with number 8 of Chemnitz (three sizes of the number '8' exist)



Saxony postage stamps showing grid with number of 2 Leipzig.
Saxony postage stamps showing grid with number of 2 Leipzig.



Later issues Saxony postage stamps showing grid with number of 244.(left stamp)
Later issues Saxony postage stamps showing grid with number of 244.(left stamp)

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by Lundy »

Thanks for starting this John,

I don't have many, but will share a few of mine.

These 2 have the Saxony grid cancels on the North German Confederation issues- I assume not too many places were still using these cancels at that time as these are the only 2 i have found. 53 for Meerane and 103 Schonheyda
Grid cancels from Saxony on North German Confederation issues
Grid cancels from Saxony on North German Confederation issues
Lundy :)

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by Lundy »

My Saxony stamps are awful, bar this nicer looking defective one with 34 cancel for Crimmitschau
Saxony 34 Crimmitschau cancel
Saxony 34 Crimmitschau cancel
Lundy :)

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Many thanks Lundy.

It is not easy or cheap to get good examples of the old States stamps.

I am prompted to add a page from Michel showing the cancels from Sachsen.

Here it is, I will add the other States Michel outlines, as appropriate.

A little more specialisation creeping in.



Scan 26. Michel page showing cancels for Sachsen postage stamps.
Michel page showing cancels for Sachsen postage stamps.
Michel page showing cancels for Sachsen postage stamps.

Note.

1. The 2 ring cancels with town names.
2. The obviously rarer type of Rautenstempel with double outside line (under 2.).
3. The fancy cancel under 4. and the 2 line long cancels and the horseshoe cancel.
4. Variations under 5.
5. A few estimates of CV are given.

So a little more complicated than my basic overview at the beginning.

Cancels are interesting but can be overwhelming. Maybe things will get easier as my learning curve increases.


One or two non Rauten´s were hiding on page scanned in Scan 24.

I will display them better and see what we have. The line on the right is not too bad after 153 years, I can at least see Dresden and the date .

Two stamps from scan 24.
Two stamps from scan 24.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Now a wider look at the Rahmenstempels with 1, 2 or 3 lines of text.

Many single stamps have fragments of these.

The best examples come on pieces where the full cancel is displayed.

The types are observed throughout the States issues into the Reich Empire.

Scan 27. Selected lot of long cancels on single stamps.
Selected long cancels on single German postage stamps.
Selected long cancels on single German postage stamps.
Enlargements form scan 27.


Scan 28. Stamps from scan 27. States, Early Empire and PFENNIGE issues.

Examples of Rahmenstempel.
Examples of Rahmenstempel.

Examples of Rahmenstempel.
Examples of Rahmenstempel.

Examples of Rahmenstempel.
Examples of Rahmenstempel.

Examples of Rahmenstempel.
Examples of Rahmenstempel.

Examples of Rahmenstempel.
Examples of Rahmenstempel.
Note that there are only examples of 2 and 3 lines of text in boxes.
Note that some boxes have angled corners.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Scan 29. Stamps from scan 27. States, PFENNIG and PFENNIGE issues.

Examples of Rahmenstempel. German postage stamps.
Examples of Rahmenstempel. German postage stamps.


Examples of Rahmenstempel. German postage stamps.
Examples of Rahmenstempel. German postage stamps.


Examples of Rahmenstempel. German postage stamps.
Examples of Rahmenstempel. German postage stamps.



Scan 30. Some pieces showing full Rahmenstempels.

Page of Rahmenstempel on pieces. German postage stamps.
Page of Rahmenstempel on pieces. German postage stamps.


Scan 31. Enlarged pieces showing Rahmenstempels from Scan 30.


German postage stamps.  Rahmenstempel example on pieces (1).
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (1).


German postage stamps.  Rahmenstempel example on pieces (2).
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (2).



German postage stamps.  Rahmenstempel example on pieces.(3)
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces.(3)




German postage stamps.  Rahmenstempel example on pieces.(4)
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces.(4)



German postage stamps.  Rahmenstempel example on pieces. (5)
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces. (5)

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Scan 32. More enlarged pieces showing Rahmenstempels from Scan 30.

Scans tweaked a little to show the text more clearly.

German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (6).
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (6).








German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (7).
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (7).









German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (8).
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (8).










German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (9).
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (9).









German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (10).
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (10).









German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (11).
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (11).










German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (12).
German postage stamps. Rahmenstempel example on pieces (12).

Now of course one should investigate more the origins of the cancels from then name and era it was issued. I will have to come back to this in the end to define the differences in the cancels. As I said above the story gets far more complicated, but for now I am in basics mode.

Please feel free to send in any good looking cancels with relevant historical information.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by maptrekker »

Some Baden Rahmenstempel:

Mannheim, Baden to Vlaardingen, Netherlands.jpg
Mannheim to Vlaardingen, Netherlands

Carlsruhe, Baden local postcard.jpg
Carlsruhe local postcard with a circular Carlsruhe receiving postmark

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Thank you Map.

Brings up the time in which I am looking at the cancels as you offer a Vorphilatelie cover (pre postage stamp) although dated in pencil 1859.

In fact is it a pre philately cover? Or should there be a stamp?

I am in your hands and learning so please forgive me if this is a foolish question. Looking though the Michel BADEN cancels (specialised) I cannot see boxed, 2 line text, example nor is one in the Databank.

I am beginning to think that flaws are easy in comparison with cancels!

No problem with the card CARLSRUHE.

Schwarze Stempelfarbe auf Ölbasis
Verwender: Postamt | Verwendung als: Aufgabestempel, Tagesstempel
Typ: R3 (Rechteckstempel mit drei Zeilen) 41mm x 15mm / Form: Rechteckstempel (3z)
Script: Grotesk (superb name).

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by maptrekker »

It is 1859 from the docketing date inside the folded letter -- and therefore not pre-philately.

The folded letter was handed over the counter and paid for in cash. Instead of a stamp it was marked paid with the "Franco" handstamp.

I have seen this postmark on a stamped cover from 1858. The stamp was cancelled with an "87" numeric canceller and postmarked with this Rahmenstempel.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by ligneN »

The three-line in blue is certainly not a "Rahmenstempel".

Misses the frame.

Also it has the sequence;

place
date
place

which as far as I remember is a railway TPO mark.

Not collecting Germany, but having some memories.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Interesting comments from ligneN.
Could you clarify more ligneN? Both covers shown have text surrounded by a ´box`.


i think I have found the type of cancel for the MANNHEIM in Databank.

Rechteckstempel mit zwei Zeilen (Rectangle stamp with 2 lines).

An example they show and Map´s example below.

BADEN, MANNHEIM
Stempel eingeführt von: BADEN
Ortsname: Mannheim
Text im Stempel: MANNHEIM
R2 [R2 (Rechteckstempel mit zwei Zeilen)]
Schrifttype: Antiqua
Breite: 34.00 mm
("Rechteckstempel (2z)" nach Stempeldatenbank)
Textzeilen im Stempel: zwei Textzeilen (2z)
Verwendungszeit 1850 bis 1.10.1859
Details: Feuser BN 297



Rechteckstempel mit zwei Zeilen MANNHEIM
Rechteckstempel mit zwei Zeilen MANNHEIM




Rechteckstempel mit zwei Zeilen MANNHEIM
Rechteckstempel mit zwei Zeilen MANNHEIM

(Note not to same scale as sample above). Arrows show a square box appearing on right?

These cancels vary somewhat in their corners (rounded in some). Interestingly the examples shown in Databank also show considerable doubling of lines in the boxes.




For the Carlsruhe I have found this in Databank.


Rechteckstempel mit drei Zeilen CARLSRUHE
Rechteckstempel mit drei Zeilen CARLSRUHE



Stempel eingeführt von: DEUTSCHES REICH 1872-1915
Ortsname: Karlsruhe
Text im Stempel: CARLSRUHE 1. * IN BADEN b *
R3 [R3 (Rechteckstempel mit drei Zeilen)]
Schrifttype: Grotesk
Breite: 42.00 mm
("Rechteckstempel (3z)" nach Stempeldatenbank)
Verwendungszeit 7.7.1876 bis 7.7.1876


Cancels? Dull? Never.

John

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by maptrekker »

Image
I think ligneN was referring to this Prussian Emden-Hannover railway postmark.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Got it now Map. All is clear. Thanks.

I made a mistake so thanks ligneN for spotting this.

I at least have an example of the Prussian Emden-Hannover full cancel.

Pondering the minefield of single circle cancels and specifically the Klaucke.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Here are a few earlier two line and three line ´boxes` from Prussia state that can be identified.

prussia 2 and 3 line boxed main.png

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by maptrekker »

Nice!

Did you just create an album page for your Prussian postmarks?

I love the layout.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Hello Map.

Thanks but....

Beset as I am with MANY cancellations (as we all tend to accumulate these) I am still in the process of how to place these in an album (or two.. or three).

The layout was accidental really and I merely added the stamp images and annotated them on computer. However, it is another milestone in thinking about the ´way to display`.

Very much a work in progress on the thread and hopefully will sort out my way forward. I will have to make personalised pages of course but what time I spend annotating and printing as well as mounting the actual stamps needs to be considered. Once scanned it is easy to make pages but not so easy to give life to real stamps. I am loathe to use sheets and bits of paper to describe them.

At the moment I have sheets with various types being sorted. This include identifying the best cancels and giving attention to more accurately identifying them. One way is to print the scanned sorted stamps with annotations and then mount stamps over the images, then sizing is not always easy.

I am trying to get some order into how to deal with the single circle stamps since they span from the 1850´s to infinity. I will have to generalise. Another factor is to try and put cancels into context as to what mixture was around at various times, when cancels came in and when they virtually disappeared. I am surprised that there is not more structured examination of German cancels on the Internet. In terms of catalogues one can glean information but no-one makes my job easy by reviewing the cancels from a wider angle. I do have the specialist Klauke cancel by Michel and that is useful though in German making my understanding a torrid occupation. More on Klauke later (a study in itself).

Here are one or two approaches to progress where I have made some research on the 2 ring cancels (less common than the one ring variants.).

I am trying to get a feel for sizing and about information for here, as well for any album. I will come back to these later, but just showing the work in progress.

I still have the few thousands of BERLIN numbered cancels stamps and in fact from 1875 to 1900 have managed to assemble stamps for all the months of each year (many with duplicates) although the PFENNIGE years 1875-79 need some gaps filled. Also have a many of the specific numbers .

One way to go.

I have acquired a collectors go the 1975-79 stamps recently and may fill some of these gaps (he said glancing up at the thick Berlin album).


Here are the scans and I will not annotate these as they will be ´labelled` later.
2 rings C main.png



2 rings seven B main.png



2 rings four a main.png

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by maptrekker »

? is Ronneburg in Hesse

Gilgenburg is actually Langenbielau

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Many thanks Map!!

See the ´work in progress` is progressing thanks to you.

I will make the given amendments and use later.

John

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by Lundy »

Well John Crow, you inspired me to sort my small range of Prussian Postmarks out!

So... These are places I believe still in Germany:
Germany Brandenburg in Ostpreussen
Germany Brandenburg in Ostpreussen
Germany Coeln Bahnhof
Germany Coeln Bahnhof
Germany Coeln
Germany Coeln
Germany Coln Bahnhof
Germany Coln Bahnhof
Lundy :)

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by Lundy »

These Prussian places are now in Russia I believe:

Allenburg, now Druzhba in Russia
Russia Allenberg
Russia Allenberg
Darkehmen, now Ozyorsk in Russia
Russia Darkehmen
Russia Darkehmen
Gumbinnen, now Gusev in Russia
Russia Gumbinnen
Russia Gumbinnen
Tapiau, now Gvardeysk in Russia
Russia Tapiau
Russia Tapiau
Tilsit, now Sovetsk in Russia
Russia Tilsit
Russia Tilsit
Wehlau, now Znamensk in Russia
Russia Wehlau
Russia Wehlau
Lundy :)

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Hello Lundy and thanks for the Prussian contribution.

Love the 2 ring and box cancels. Admiring the 6 strip TILSIT.

Note the font here typical of Prussian cancels ANTIQUA.

I also note that the town is ALLENBURG not ALLENBERG (I think).

One useful advantage of looking at cancels is that one can often pick up missed flaws.

Here is one I found recently.

Prussia Mi.11 III. A white mark on chin (missing parts to cross hatched lines). The cancel was obliging in allowing me to see the flaw with the gap in the ´S` so maybe I should be suspicious!
Mi.11 III. Flaw on Prussian postage stamp Germany.
Mi.11 III. Flaw on Prussian postage stamp Germany.
PS. Johnrcrow not John Crow (do not want any political overtones to creep in).

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is an older 2 line boxed.

Norddeutscher Bund
1 GROSCHEN
Mi.4 Official stamp 1870
(Rechteckstempel mit zwei Zeilen)
Note that there is only the day and month in the text lines.
Norddeutscher Bund 1870, 1 GROSCHEN Mi.4 Official stamp (Rechteckstempel mit zwei Zeilen)
Norddeutscher Bund 1870, 1 GROSCHEN Mi.4 Official stamp (Rechteckstempel mit zwei Zeilen)



Contrasted now with 2 line boxed Prussian ALLSTEDT cancel where there is day, month and year in figures (albeit blurred on this example).

PREUSSEN
ALLSTEDT
R2 (Rechteckstempel mit zwei Zeilen)
Antiqua
Size 33.00 mm
Prussian ALLSTEDT cancel 2 lined box cancel
Prussian ALLSTEDT cancel 2 lined box cancel

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

A few reflections on the box stamps.

Even single are sometimes´readable`.

Sometimes there can be confusion as to town. Here are 2 scans to show what I mean.

Scan 33 I think. Six single stamps showing part of 2 lined boxed cancels

Six Deutsches Reich postage stamps showing part of two lined boxed cancels.
Six Deutsches Reich postage stamps showing part of two lined boxed cancels.

I was able using Stempel databank to identify these.

A few bits of interest arise. My interest at least.

1. The Gross Baudis Databank example (one) is from 1891 so mine pre dates this considerably. Note also that the script is Grotesk rather than the common Antiqua.

2. The Worbis and Dresden VIII are late cancels at the edge of usage given in Databank.



Scan 34. Six three lined boxed cancels. Not so easy group. Help needed.

Six Deutsches Reich postage stamps showing part of three lined boxed cancels.
Six Deutsches Reich postage stamps showing part of three lined boxed cancels.
Notes.

1. Should have been relatively easy to identify the missing texted stamps? However not so far. Feel free to identify them.

Conclusions.

a. Sometimes a part cancel can be identified particularly where there is the beginning of the town name.

b. A good number of stamps with part of boxed cancels are impossible to identify (not showing these).

c. Some difficulties may arise when there could be ambiguity of then names text.

d. Where there is not example in the databank then I am either reading the text wrongly or have ´discovered`a previously unrecorded town cancel.

e. The obvious best source of these cancels (as for all cancels) is on letters or pieces cut from letters. Not forgetting multiples and blocks.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

As a finale for the boxed cancels here are three scans overviewing selected good cancels (a few seen before).

I think that cancels can be made out on scans. I will gladly enlarge any if there is interest.


Scans 35. Shows three overviews of boxed stamps on pieces and strips.
1. Overviews of boxed stamps on pieces and strips.
1. Overviews of boxed stamps on pieces and strips.




2. Overviews of boxed stamps on pieces and strips.
2. Overviews of boxed stamps on pieces and strips.



3. Overviews of boxed stamps on pieces and strips.
3. Overviews of boxed stamps on pieces and strips.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by maptrekker »

Scan 34

MBERG is in the database as SCHOEMBERG REG. BEZ. LIEGNITZ

SOBAU

GNADENFREI BAHNHOF

KEMPTEN ???

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Magic Map.

Thanks.

Useful information for when I finally get around to mounting the stamps. I think more lazyness on my part had a little to do with not finding the towns.



The single circle cancels.

Large font for the title of a very large group, spreading from most states pre-Empire and through Deutsches Reich etc.

So not an easy task to be set. I will probe into the segmented circles later.

I must remember the title intent, cancellations on my postage stamps. I am tempted to go elsewhere to illustrate cancels. I have to limit examples to those in my lots.

Of course others can provide their stamps as illustrative of the types. Feel free.

In an overview nut shell we are dealing with:

1. Diameter of cancel circle.
2. Script used (fonts).
3. Whether there are stars (one or two) or none and the styles.
4. The name of the town cancel itself of course and the variants that occur in time.
5. The date variations.
6. Post office identifiers.
7. Fancier cancels.

Adds up to many possibilities of this the most common circle.

Here is start. Some selected stamps in detail.

Scan 36.
Three K1 cancelled stamps (1) from Deutsches Reich 1876-1880, showing different characteristics.
Three K1 cancelled stamps (1) from Deutsches Reich 1876-1880, showing different characteristics.

Notes.
1. Fonts highlighted, these are all GROTESK.
2. No stars on top two stamps.
3. Star on left of bottom stamps pair.
4. Differences in diameters shown by comparative arrows.
5. Bottom stamp identifies post office (1. c).








Scan 37.

Three K1 cancelled stamps (2)  from Deutsche Reich 1876-1895, showing different characteristics.
Three K1 cancelled stamps (2) from Deutsche Reich 1876-1895, showing different characteristics.


Notes.
1. Stamp from ZITTAU i. SACHS has two stars and no letter on left (a, b, c etc).
2. Stamp top right has no stars nor letter to right of date.
3. Bottom stamp had one star to left and letter ´a` to the right off date.
4. Different diameters can be seen.







Scan 38.
Two K1 cancelled stamps (3) from Deutsche Reich, 1883-1884, showing different characteristics.
Two K1 cancelled stamps (3) from Deutsche Reich, 1883-1884, showing different characteristics.


Notes.
1. Top stamp has ANTIQUA font. No stars.
2. Bottom stamp has GROTESK font with a star and a ´b`as well as post office ID (1).
3. The star in bottom stamp is certainly stylised and I must look out for more. One tends not to look so hard when not dealing directly with cancels.




Scan 39.
Different circular and segmented cancels on Deutsche Reich postage stamps,1886-1915.
Different circular and segmented cancels on Deutsche Reich postage stamps,1886-1915.
I put his in now to remind me of the observed transition of circle cancels stamps into different segmented forms.

I will try and develop this better with my vast array of Berlin cancels spanning 1875-1920´s :shock:

Soon, a look at the KLAUCKE CANCELS. Any previous spelling of mine without ´CK`was wrong.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by nigelc »

Lundy wrote:
18 Oct 2020 08:00
Image
Lundy :)
I think this is from the village of Brandenburg near Königsberg in East Prussia.

This was the site of a famous castle belonging to the Teutonic Order.

The village is now in the Kaliningrad oblast in Russia and since 1945 has been known as Ushakovo.
Nigel

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by ligneN »

maptrekker wrote:
15 Oct 2020 00:30
Image
I think ligneN was referring to this Prussian Emden-Hannover railway postmark.
True. :)

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

The Klaucke cancels.

It comes as a surprise that Googling Klaucke cancels brings up at number one, top of page, my own reference in Stampboards! Good for the boards profile but not so helpful to me.

OK- Well I have the Michel Handbook and so can glean information and find my stamps that fulfil the identification criteria.

Scan 40. Cover of Michel Handbook KLAUCKE-Stempel

Cover of Michel Handbook KLAUCKE-Stempel
Cover of Michel Handbook KLAUCKE-Stempel
Background.

Julius Klaucke (1826-1903) was an engraver and stampmaker (cancellers) by profession.

Klaucke used hardened cast steel for the production of stamping tools (in contrast to the already established methods).

In mid 1871 Klaucke succeeded in getting a contract with the Upper Postpost Directorate – Düsseldorf to make and deliver stamp cancellers and he produced, the so-called, horseshoe stamps (claw-horseshoe stamps as ´Klaucke`in German means ´claw`) from 1871 to 1875.

The General Post Office Berlin of 13 February 1875 made it necessary for Klaucke to revise the shape of his stamping tools and the Klaucke-Stempel (Claw Stamp), named after him, was created. This a mechanical stamp, which differed from the other standard stamps of the time on the basis of the letters characteristic of Klaucke.

The Handbook illustrates how much work has gone onto defining the cancels and the specific areas have been widely covered in many studies.

I will see what examples I have mainly of the single circle kinds. i have some Horseshoe cancels too.

Below is page 16 of the Handbook defining the types of Klaucke cancels. The Horseshoe and boxed cancels also appear as designed by Klaucke.


Scan 41. Types of Klaucke cancels shown in Handbook.

Types of Klaucke cancels shown in Michel  KLAUCKE-stempel Handbook.
Types of Klaucke cancels shown in Michel KLAUCKE-stempel Handbook.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

First, to concentrate on the circular cancels.

There are many (73) places where Klaucke cancels were used across various periods. Some have one example and some many e.g Hamburg have many (13) Braunschweig (14) Mulhausen I. Els (11).

The KLAUCKE Handbook is a must if one is to get serious with these cancels and the variants seen in time.

I am choosing Hamburg to illustrate how the information is set up in the Handbook.


Here are illustrative pages for Hamburg cancels HAMBURG *1b and HAMBURG *1c.

Scan 42. HAMBURG *1b and HAMBURG *1c. pages
Illustrative pages for Hamburg cancels HAMBURG *1b and HAMBURG *1c. from KLAUCKE-Stempel Handbook.
Illustrative pages for Hamburg cancels HAMBURG *1b and HAMBURG *1c. from KLAUCKE-Stempel Handbook.


A closer look at HAMBURG *1c. page.



Scan 43. HAMBURG *1c. page
Illustrative page for Hamburg cancels HAMBURG *1c. from KLAUCKE-Stempel Handbook.
Illustrative page for Hamburg cancels HAMBURG *1c. from KLAUCKE-Stempel Handbook.

One can see that there are some changes to the cancels in time such as full stops after the `1`; diameters and font sizes.

It would be terrific and very useful if someone translated the notes at the side if the stamps!!

I am assuming that the smaller cancels (parallel stampels) were also in use at the times the Klaucke´s and that the similar designs, with larger diameter (Nachfolge stempels), were Klaucke cancels produced (later stamp cancels). This needs clearing up and I would appreciate opinions. I, for one, need to better understand the notes.

Note the pricing on the bottom right. not sure what the GA is ?

Useful pages define the completeness of cancels and relate these to the CV.

I have taken data from the single circle page to show here. Also useful maybe in defining all cancels.



Scan 44. Differential pricing for extent of Klaucke single circle cancels.
Differential pricing for extent of Klaucke single circle cancels.
Differential pricing for extent of Klaucke single circle cancels.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by nigelc »

johnrcrow wrote:
20 Oct 2020 02:42
A closer look at HAMBURG *1c. page.
Scan 43. HAMBURG *1c. page

Image

Note the pricing on the bottom right. not sure what the GA is ?
Michel uses GA as an abbreviation for Ganzsache.
Nigel

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Before seeing my Klaucke Hamberg cancels I have taken the Hamburg data and created very basic overviews.

Scans 44. Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1a.

Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1a German postage stamps.
Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1a German postage stamps.


Selected pieces (top and side representations of cancels) from Michel are shown for all Hamburg cancels 1b through to 1l, 6 and 7a Type I. and 7a Type II.




Scan 45. Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1b to 1e.

Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1b to 1e German postage stamps.
Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1b to 1e German postage stamps.







Scan 46. Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1f to 1i..

Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1f to 1i German postage stamps.
Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1f to 1i German postage stamps.








Scan 47. Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1k to 6 and 7a Type I.


Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1k to 6 and 7a Type I  German postage stamps.
Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 1k to 6 and 7a Type I German postage stamps.






Scan 48. Klaucke cancels Hamburg 7a. type II.
Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 7a Type II German postage stamps.
Klaucke cancels for Hamburg 7a Type II German postage stamps.
Remembering that Hamburg is one of the more complicated Klaucke cities.

So now to show my examples, as well as identify and show other Towns/Cities.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

SCAN 49.Possible Klaucke cancels Type 61 HAMBURG 1a.

Possible Klaucke cancels Type 61 HAMBURG 1a
Possible Klaucke cancels Type 61 HAMBURG 1a







SCAN 50. Possible Klaucke cancels Type 62 HAMBURG 1b.
Possible Klaucke cancels Type 62 HAMBURG 1b
Possible Klaucke cancels Type 62 HAMBURG 1b







SCAN 51. Possible Klaucke cancels Type 63 HAMBURG 1c.
Possible Klaucke cancels Type 63 HAMBURG 1c
Possible Klaucke cancels Type 63 HAMBURG 1c







Scan 52. Possible Klaucke cancels Type 64 HAMBURG 1d.

Possible Klaucke cancels Type 64 HAMBURG 1d
Possible Klaucke cancels Type 64 HAMBURG 1d






Scan 53. Possible Klaucke cancels Types 67 1f, 68 1g.
Possible Klaucke cancels Types 67 1f, 68 1g
Possible Klaucke cancels Types 67 1f, 68 1g

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Scan 54. Possible Klaucke cancels Types 73 /74.

Possible Klaucke cancels Types 73 and 74.
Possible Klaucke cancels Types 73 and 74.
Need to try and distinguish I and II versions of the HAMBURG * 7 a.




Scan 55. Klaucke cancels other than from Hamburg.

Klaucke cancels other than from Hamburg.
Klaucke cancels other than from Hamburg.

I have used possible Klaucke cancels as I await any comments.

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by maptrekker »

Hamburg ✶ 7a Type I has a six-pointed star, Type II has a 5-pointed star.

If you look closely the 5- and 6-pointed stars are depicted in the name "Hamburg 7a Type I" versus"Hamburg 7a Type II"

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Re: Cancellations on my German Postage stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks again Map for information.

Very useful. Is this observational or from a source e.g the Handbook, that I totally missed of course.

Repeat of scan with stars looked at.

73 and 74 with stars.png


Top three cannot be assigned from stars are they are cut off cancel.

Bottom three OK, Left 6 pointed star = 7a I, next two 5 pointed stars * 7a II.

John

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