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Are collectors of Japan stamps now becoming Extinct??

Posted: 28 Jul 2009 01:18
by Philafan1
Hi,

I'm new in this forum and I'm really glad to share with another collectors.

Excuse me If some of my posts can be misunderstood as my English isn't very good.

Going to the post title, I collected Japan for many years and I don't see many Japan auctions or Japanesse collections on internet.

Maybe is that I'm not looking in the right place.

Thank you very much for this space and I expect to be for a long time in this forum, It feels like a big and nice community since the first time I entered here.

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 28 Jul 2009 02:00
by Greg Ioannou
When I list Japanese stamps for sale on eBay, there are a lot of bidders and the prices are high. Someone out there is collecting Japan.

Greg

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 28 Jul 2009 09:24
by philatarium
I'm a collector of Japan! Always happy to talk about it, and, definitely, always anxious to learn more!

(And I sell off excess material from time to time.)

And Greg I: Good to see you! Glad to know you're still around! (The eBay board is just not what is once was way back in the good ol' days.)

-- Dave F.

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 28 Jul 2009 09:34
by philatarium
I forgot to mention that I'd really like to put together an online discussion group for Japanese philately. I'm afraid I don't know that many Japan collectors who are online, and, among the few who are, I don't really know of any who are active in philatelic discussion boards. Would love to meet them!

It's one of the reasons I joined this board.

-- Dave

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 28 Jul 2009 09:40
by iomoon
Dave,

I collect Japanese volcanoes at least.
And they have a lot of them.

There are a lot of old ebay regulars on this site.
Glad to see you here.
Along with Tonymacg we now have a couple of Chinese and Japanese translators.

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 28 Jul 2009 12:05
by philatarium
Jim: I do see a few familiar names on here, and I'm glad -- I'd wondered where everyone had gone off to.

I didn't think they had disappeared from the internet entirely, but figured they had gone somewhere where things were more civil and the presence of knowledgeable moderators could keep things running smoothly. Glad to know at least a few of them landed here, including you! Good to see you here.

By the way, as I was preparing some recent Japanese stamps for my store, I saw tie-ins to your collecting interest and catalog, and wondered if you at least had them listed.

You probably do. But would it be too presumptuous of me to send you links to them (big scans, so well-illustrated) via your email for you to cross-check against your catalog? Some of them, as I recall, had Mt. Fuji in faintly in the background -- not something one would necessarily catch in an illustration in Scott.

All the best,

-- Dave

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 28 Jul 2009 12:21
by iomoon
Dave,

I think I have images of most of the Japanese Fuji stamps.
But you never know.
I have been letting them slip in the past year or so with all of the Province stamps.
It seems at least three provinces like to illustrate Fuji.

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 28 Jul 2009 12:40
by philatarium
Jim,

Right you are. Several prefectures seem to claim it as their own. And, of course, its iconic status seems to merit its use on so many more designs, even very recent ones.

Anyway, I'll send you those links, and you can see if you want or need to capture the images or not.

Best,

-- Dave

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 28 Jul 2009 16:54
by admin
philatarium wrote:
I didn't think they had disappeared from the internet entirely, but figured they had gone somewhere where things were more civil and the presence of knowledgeable moderators could keep things running smoothly.
Greg Ioannou and iomoon are both Moderators here, so blame them. ;)

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 01 Aug 2009 01:26
by Philafan1
Thank you all for your responses!!
I knew they were somewhere...
:)
And thank you to for receiveing me in this great place,
(I promise I will improve my english!)

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 01 Aug 2009 01:30
by Greg Ioannou
philatarium wrote:Jim: I do see a few familiar names on here, and I'm glad -- I'd wondered where everyone had gone off to.

I didn't think they had disappeared from the internet entirely, but figured they had gone somewhere where things were more civil and the presence of knowledgeable moderators could keep things running smoothly. Glad to know at least a few of them landed here, including you! Good to see you here.

All the best,

-- Dave
Hey, welcome! Good to see you here. I've given up on the eBay chat board. Too much craziness for my taste. Pretty much goes for how eBay is being run, too.

Not that this place is exactly sensible, but you do get some decent discussions here. Check out the Plate 77 one for a genuinely intriguing mystery, for example.

Greg

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 01 Aug 2009 09:47
by philatarium
Philafan: No worries about your English. Very understandable! (Much better than my Spanish -- or my Japanese!)

Greg & Jim: Thanks for the welcome. It does look like some of the most active threads are not necessarily stamp-related, but they do add to the conviviality of the place, which is a decidedly good thing!

-- Dave

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 01 Aug 2009 10:00
by iomoon
Dave,

though the board has a decidedly Australian flavor, there is a mixture of everything in here.
And now, enough posts to keep you reading for weeks.

Unlike the eBay board, they don't disappear in a week or less.

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 03 Aug 2009 04:17
by Raz
Iomoon, If the Vatican can use Mt Fuji on a stamp, I suppose any Japanese state is more than entitled to do the same. Regards, Ron B.

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 07 Aug 2009 07:54
by Philafan1
Hi!
It's me againg, If somebody is interested in Lots from
China or Japan, please send me an e-mail at flavia.martinez07[at]gmail.com

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 07 Aug 2009 22:04
by s_c_stamps
The Vatican used Mt Fuji on a stamp???? I haven't looked it up but this post just caught my attention...
I can't help wondering about the logic behind the choice of subject... :?:

Sue.

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 08 Aug 2009 00:07
by Raz
Sue ,
If I remember correctly it was to commemmorate the Pope's visit to Japan in 1972. One of a set that I recently bought from Lakatoi4. :!:

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 08 Aug 2009 04:09
by iomoon
Raz wrote:Sue ,
If I remember correctly it was to commemmorate the Pope's visit to Japan in 1972.
Nope.

It was for Expo70

Image link inactive. Removed

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 29 Sep 2009 08:26
by kturner
I feel the strangest sensation, as if the ghost of Samuel L. Clemens, a.k.a. Mark Twain, replied to notices that he had died, "I feel that rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated." He lived for another decade or so. Collecting Japanese stamps becomes as much an issue for topicalists as for the discerning collector who is trying to collect every issue from that country. The Net is not destroying the postal systems of each nation. It is, rather, pushing them into healthy competition; business mail continues to thrive - any packages mailed from one country to another still need the governmental approval with postage stamps attached. If one were to limit collecting to one topic, one would have to return to the early days of stamps being issued, when there were only symbols of each issuing nation or head of state on the postage stamps. With some exceptions, that would take us to about 1874. There would still be a number of "wild card" issues from local governments such as the Feudatory States of India, and the animals from Liberia. The 1869 pictorial issues from the United States would probably be among the first sets issued which were including something other than the above. The steamship which appears in the set was neither a symbol of the U.S. nor a governmental unit. It had its forerunner in the set of Pacific Steam Navigation Company issues of 1857 for Peru, and the Lady McLeod of Trinidad in 1847. Packet boats appear on many issues from around the world in the latter 1800's. In 1869 the Suez Canal Navigation Co. issued a set of four values, some in varied shades, thus demanding more attention to color than to design. I think there are also ships on the early issues of Buenos Aires. //Back to Japan: there are too many wonderful issues to keep the collector busy for decades to come. What an incredible range of topics they cover! Flowers, dragons, balloons, costumes, etc. I may never own them all, but I am still trying! Cordially, kim

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 29 Sep 2009 09:48
by grantsstamps
Yes we are still around and very active. Check out Ebay well over forty pages and going strong.
Look at the ISJP one of the largest groups under the APS.(members wise)

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 30 Sep 2009 00:52
by uri
In extinction???

Nooooooo!!!

Here is another one!

And ready to dive into the bag of two and a half kilos of kiloware that has just arrived home from Japan!!!

:D :D :D

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 30 Sep 2009 05:39
by grantsstamps
Well don't go in head first, it might be a little shallow. :D Let us see some of your fines. Maybe we can do an exchange.
Grant

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 20 Oct 2009 21:26
by tommdavies
I have a small collection of Japan stamps, mostly inherited. Despite feeling flattered at my new designation, I still feel I ask naive questions, and here's one.

Image

I can't find either of these stamps in Gibbons, probably because I'm not looking hard enough in the first case, and because the second is not a stamp.

Any advice gratefully received.

Tom

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 00:04
by tonymacg
Tom, they're Revenues. The first is a 10 Sen, as you can see; the second a 6 Rin. Can't tell you much more than that, I'm afraid.

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 00:34
by iomoon
The second is a tobacco revenue with Mt. Fuji framed by tobacco plants.

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 00:41
by tommdavies
:) Many thanks both. I had a feeling the second was, but the first looked so like a postage stamp.................so what years do you think? Where would I find them catalogued please?

Tom

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 01:25
by iomoon
Tom,

supposedly the best reference is

Shinomura - Japanese Revenue stamps 2003

however, I have not got a copy and have been unable to buy one.

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 02:09
by philatarium
I've recently learned about this site, which is the best online reference I've been able to find on Japanese revenues:

http://www.ssjp.dk/rev/eng/rev/overviewrev.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your stamp on the left is a registration tax stamp:

http://www.ssjp.dk/rev/eng/rev/registreringe.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and the stamp on the right is, as Jim correctly identified, a tobacco tax stamp:

http://www.ssjp.dk/rev/eng/rev/tobak1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Both late 19th century.

I briefly glanced at Shimomura, and it looks like they are of minimal (50 yen) value.

I have a soft spot in my heart for Japanese revenues (actually, all Japanese stamps, so thanks for posting these!

And there are enough people on here who can likely help you with any Japanese stamp identification!

-- Dave

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 02:26
by tommdavies
Thanks iomoon! Brilliant leade!

Apparently it's Shumimoto. I found a Scandinavian site which summarises the catalogue in a way which I found most useful

https://www.ssjp.dk/rev/eng/rev/overviewrev.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to their records, the stamps are as follows.

Image

The first is a registration stamp off 1888 to 1898, although the colour on my stamp seems very faded..

The second is indeed a Tobacco stamp; issued 1875 value 5 rin.

Image

I have two others; Document stamps from 1883. 5 rin and 1 sen. No 132 is a postage stamp.

Many thanks,

Tom

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 02:29
by tommdavies
Hi Dave!

Many thanks, we seem to have overlapped in our postings!

Tom

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 03:25
by tommdavies
Although I have become totally hooked on posting to this great Forum, I have no idea what the protocols are.........but for some reason I just want to share pics of my stamps.

These are from 1888 I think. Of no great value. Probably not of much interest either?

Image

Tom

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 05:26
by philatarium
Thanks for posting, because, to paraphrase a bit, "I've never met a stamp I didn't like."

I'm running a little short on time right now, but just some brief comments:

First, the top stamp is from the "Koban" series (actually, the "New Koban" series (1888-1892), as opposed to the "Old Koban" series (1876-1879), or the "UPU Koban" series (1883), where the stamp colors were altered to comply with UPU requirements.)

The other two stamps are from the "Chrysanthemum" series (1899-1907), which was not as complicated.

But to give you an idea of the specialty collecting underneath all this, although these stamps just have a simplified listing in Scott (and I'll assume SG?), and in the Sakura (Japan simplified) catalog, in the JSCA (Japan Specialized catalog), the Koban stamp listings run 51 pages, and the Chrysanthemum listings run 31 pages. Especially with the Kobans, there are numerous paper, ink, and perforation variations, topped off by varying premiums for certain types of cancels.

For instance, your top stamp has, I'm pretty confident, a telegraph office cancel on it. Although it looks like this was the most common stamp used to pay telegraph charges (I'm guessing it was 3 sen for ordinary services), and the other denominations carry higher premiums for a telegraph cancel of this type, nonetheless, it carries a premium for telegraph office use, rather than conventional postal use. So, on that stamp, assuming that it's the most common paper, perfs, etc., it catalogs as a regular used stamp at 150 yen. But with the telegraph cancel, it catalogs at 600 yen. (The catalog price, I believe, would be for an even fuller strike, but it gives you an idea that there is a premium.)

I am not as proficient in identifying the cancels on the other two, and, indeed, this is what I'm hoping to specialize in when I retire (if I retire). But it gives you an idea of the richness and complexity behind what appears to be a straightforward listing of definitives in Scott or Gibbons. (I think this is a common story for many definitive sets from many different countries.)

Good show!

-- Dave

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 06:38
by tommdavies
Hi Dave,

Thankyou! That was such a rich and fascinatin response; door opened........

I am familiar with all the variations of Edward VII penny red colorations, so not suprising that equal complexity exists in Japan.

So what next?

Tom

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 07:18
by tommdavies
So................after that wonderful reply..............another naive question. I assume these stamps are the Japanese occupation of China..........but can't identify them easily. Help?

Tom

Image

Image

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 07:47
by philatarium
Hi, Tom --

Those are a mix of regular Japan with China, and I don't know much about the overprints on the China ones. (Again, after/if I retire ...)

Basically, for the examples you've shown, the ones with a portrait on them are China, and the ones without are Japan.

Another, even more foolproof to identify stamps of this era is that little "sunshine" symbol is for China, and the Japan ones, up until the end of WW2, will almost always have that chrysanthemum symbol. So that can help you sort them out a bit.

The Japan stamps, except, as it happens in this case, the blue ones, belong to another definitive series, the "Tazawa series" (1913-1937, with 6 different subcategories in even the Japanese simplified catalog; also a little thorny in the general Scott and SG catalogs as well).

Of the remaining Japan stamps -- the blue Japan ones -- you'll see one looks very similar to the "chrysanthemum" stamp you showed before.

The other blue Japan stamp is the 20-sen stamp with the illustration of Mt. Fuji on it. That belongs to another definitive series, the "Mt. Fuji & Deer Series" (1922-1937).

All of this is quite an interesting area to me.

Also, I know I've seen online somewhere a country identifier but can't recall it right off. I'm sure someone else will be able to chime in with that.

Running off again. (It's early afternoon here.)

All the best,

-- Dave

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 07:57
by grantsstamps
They are china with new values between about 1942 until about 1948 or 49, they couldn't print new stamps fast enough for inflation so kept overprinting what they had.

Grant

Re: Japan collectors are in extinc

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 09:09
by tonymacg
tommdavies wrote:Thanks iomoon! Brilliant leade!

Apparently it's Shumimoto. I found a Scandinavian site which summarises the catalogue in a way which I found most useful

https://www.ssjp.dk/rev/eng/rev/overviewrev.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to their records, the stamps are as follows.

Image

The first is a registration stamp off 1888 to 1898, although the colour on my stamp seems very faded..

The second is indeed a Tobacco stamp; issued 1875 value 5 rin.
Not 5 Rin - 6 Rin, I assure you!

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 10:17
by philatarium
Thanks for checking things over, Tony! I was reading too fast before and didn't notice that. -- Tony's right -- on that right-most stamp, that's a 6 beside the "rin" character.

Also, I believe the name is "Shimomura." At least, that's the last name of the guy whose catalogue is most often cited for Japanese revenues.

Tony -- so glad to have you around! Keep double-checking, please!

-- Dave

Re: Japan collectors are in extinc

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 11:17
by tonymacg
Dave, any sort of distraction from the frightful job I'm working on is a delight :D

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 13:54
by philatarium
Tony,

Entendu! I've got to do my part to help you out with this. :wink:

(I still have that pending set of scans I want to prepare for you.)

All the best,

-- Dave

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 21:23
by tommdavies
Thanks Dave for yet another fascinating exposition. My addiction is growing daily...................

The original collector was obviously as unfamiliar with the difference between Japanese and Chinese script as I am, and had pasted them into "Japanese Post Offices Abroad". My ignorance is shaming. I must do more work on character identification. :oops:
Tom

Re: Japan collectors are in extinc

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 21:31
by tonymacg
Tom, until 50 years or so ago, there was no difference between Chinese, Korean and Japanese characters, although the Japanese used kana, and the Koreans Hangul, as well. Even now, the differences are probably not that great to the non-Chinese, Japanese or Korean speaker between Chinese Simplified (China and Singapore), Chinese Traditional (Hong Kong, Taiwan and most of the diaspora) and modern Japanese. No need to apologise!

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 21:51
by tommdavies
I had another look at Gibbons, and the section "Japanese Occupation of China" has a picture of an overprint, which I've been unable to paste in here, which is identical to those on my stamps.

Could it be that they are in fact "Imperial" Japanese stamps?

Tom

(3)
(4)


1943 Stamps of China and No. 12 above surch as T 3 (cent values) or T 4 (dollar values). (a) On T 58.

13 58 $6 on 5c. green £1.50 £2.50
14 $20 on 15c. red £1.50 £1.75
15 $500 on 15c. green £1.50 £1.75
17 $1000 on 20c. blue £2.75 £3.25
18 $1000 on 25c. blue £3.00 £3.25

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 21:56
by tommdavies
Image

I did it! It may be of course that Chinese overprints were identical?

Tom

Re: Japan collectors are in extinc

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 22:07
by tonymacg
Tom, that is Chinese text, being used by the Japanese ... It can equally be read as Japanese, although it wouldn't be written that way in Japanese. If that isn't all too confusing :D

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 22:51
by tommdavies
Fascinating! So they are Japanese Post Office overprints in Chinese. I get the picture now. Of course, they would be..............

Tom

Re: Japan collectors are in extinc

Posted: 21 Oct 2009 23:05
by tonymacg
And to pile confusion on confusion, the font of the overprint (Kaishu) is a favourite with the Chinese, but for reasons I've never been able to discover, the Japanese don't seem to use it much. (A shame, because I like it, too.)

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 22 Oct 2009 03:50
by philatarium
tommdavies wrote:Fascinating! So they are Japanese Post Office overprints in Chinese.
Tom, I'm not sure that's a correct conclusion. if you're still referring back to the stamps you showed with the overprints, I think it's correct to say that those are still considered, for philatelic catalog purposes, at least, stamps of China, not Japanese occupation. I don't know Chinese overprints at all (this is just not my area), but some of those overprints are just to uprate the stamps for inflation purposes, as Grant said upthread, and had nothing to do with the Japanese post office.

I just don't know this area well enough to provide much illumination, except to point out these other considerations:

Japanese Offices Abroad: There are short series of Japanese stamps (i.e., stamps by and from Japan, printed in Japan, look like Japanese stamps) that have small overprints at the bottom center of the stamp. These stamps are, with one design exception, from the "Chrysanthemum" and "Tazawa" series we mentioned above. I don't have any handy to illustrate this right at the moment, but there are two little characters at the bottom. One overprint essentially says, in Japanese, "China", and the other, "Korea".

Japanese Occupation: In (nearly?) every country that Japan occupied during WW2, they did start overprinting the stamps of that country. Especially in Southeast Asia and British and Dutch Colonies there, this is quite a vivid specialty area. And because it was easy to forge these overprints, it can be quite a treacherous area to collect (and a lot of them, if legitimate, are expensive). In some (most?) of these occupied countries, if the Japanese were there long enough, they started issued new stamps entirely, not overprinting the older ones. (In the Scott catalog, at least, the Japanese occupation stamps are at the back of the listings of that given country; not listed with Japan.)

Manchukuo: Japan settled into, roughly, Manchuria, early enough on in its expansionist plans to set up the semblance of a separate country, Manchukuo, often called a "puppet government." Manchukuo issued its own stamps (and currency, I think) under that name. There's another poster here on this board who has developed an amazing website about them:
http://www.manchukuostamps.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Manchurian Local Overprints: I don't know this history very well, so take it with several grains of salt, but, as China began to recapture territory in Manchuria from Japan, they overprinted Chinese stamps in those areas. There's a whole 'nother specialty collecting area, Manchurian Local Overprints, with its own catalogs and references. I only know this area exists, but just don't know anything about it. (Again, retirement ...) It's possible that some of the overprinted stamps of China belong in this category. I don't know how well Gibbons guides one through this. But, at least according to the poster Grant, the overprinted China stamps you showed had to do with revaluing the stamps for inflation in China, rather than for "sovereignty" in these rapidly changing territories.

This post is much too long, and I'm sure, much too unclear (even to me!), but, at least in my very limited understanding of this area, I didn't think your original statement that I quoted above was a correct conclusion, and I wanted to try to give a brief overview into the issues that can make this so complicated.

(And I'll try to show an example of the Japanese offices stamps, which is what I think stamp albums would be referring to (and which some could correctly characterize as Japanese occupation, but before the WW2 era, so that's why that term carries a large amount of meaning for me).

-- Dave

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 22 Oct 2009 05:44
by maptrekker
The stamps with the overprints are from 1948 and cannot be Japanese occupation. None of the overprints match the one illustrated in SG as Japanese occupation.

In 1948 the Chinese government converted to the gold yuan at an exchange ratio of 3,000,000 old yuan to 1 gold yuan. The gold yuan was not backed by gold and also quickly suffered from inflation.

The two Chinese characters on the right side of each surcharged stamp translate to "gold yuan."

Re: Japan collectors are in extinction?

Posted: 22 Oct 2009 07:39
by iomoon
The Manchukuo Locals were stamps originally produced by the "puppet" Japanese government but later overprinted by the Chinese once the Japanese influence had been removed. Essentially each city PO created their own overprint. Not a hard task since many individuals in China have their own "chops".

I even have my own:

Image link inactive. Removed

These were tricky to recognize since the originating PO was only determined from cancelled mail.

The major reference work for these was published by Kerr in four thin volumes. The reference, stamps and especially cancelled covers are all expensive.