My Western Australia 1879 2d Swan Error of Colour stamp

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My Western Australia 1879 2d Swan Error of Colour stamp

Post by Pod »

I thought this might be of interest to some on the board - as a general topic.

I recently purchased a small group of 'outcasts' off an auction site from a seller in France.

The lot was listed with a fairly reasonable scan and one item (clearly damaged) caught my eye. I judged it to be an example of the scarce Western Australian 2d (Crown over CC watermark) mauve error of colour...so I took a punt and paid the grand price of 5.00 Euros for the lot.

See what you think ... a 6d Violet Crown over CC is matched for comparison.

Image

Image

Image
My Western Australia 1879 2d Swan Mauve Error of Colour stamp

Even though it is thinned with a small hole and has a small closed tear at the base, as space filler it's got to be worth the 5.00 Euros!!! :D

Cheers - Matt
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by PeterS »

Matt, I have my doubts I must admit. :(
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by erich »

It's probably a color changeling, but no way to tell for sure from a scan.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Interesting - it seems to match the illustration on the front cover of Popes book on WA stamps almost identically...I'll see if I can scan both together trhis evening.

Cheers - Matt
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Allanswood »

I was having a look in my catalogue.
But if a colour changeling, a change from what original colour?

You might have to go for certifying it.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Global Administrator »

I recall Phoenix had one in their last sale but can't find the photo - maybe someone else can ... looks OK to me on a first glance.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

All folks - thanks for the comments on this.

I'm sure the stamp is genuine - the Crown over CC watermark was printed in yellow 'shades' only for this period - I think it would be a significant challenge to convert the same stamp to the current mauve.

I note in this instance that the watermark is upright and as far as I can tell, only recorded as sideways.

I've attached further scans here - one showing a 6d mauve 6d against the 2d mauve in question and the other showing the 2d mauve in question against the same illustrated on the cover of Pope's publication....considering the latter I wouldn't think there is too much between them.

Image

Image

On balance - it should be expertised...can anyone recommend a reliable specialist who could do this for me?

Cheers - Matt
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by PeterS »

Matt, I think your best bet is the RPSV (Royal Philatelic Society of Victoria) here in Melbourne, given this is an Australian Colonial stamp;

RPSV Expert Committee: http://www.rpsv.org.au/expert-committee/

BTW, I think I was a tad hasty in expressing my doubts!
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by erich »

I may also have been too hasty to suggest it is not good.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Greg Ioannou »

Pod wrote:All folks - thanks for the comments on this.

I'm sure the stamp is genuine - the Crown over CC watermark was printed in yellow 'shades' only for this period - I think it would be a significant challenge to convert the same stamp to the current mauve.

I note in this instance that the watermark is upright and as far as I can tell, only recorded as sideways.
According to Juhl's Catalogue -- Handbook 1829-1912, the watermark is supposed to be upright on these. Juhl lists the known cancels on these, and that 13-bar dumb cancel on yours is known on one other copy.

All the details you're providing are pointing in the same direction: It may well be ok.

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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Many thanks guys - I'll take the advice and go to the expert committee - will keep you posted.

Cheers - Matt
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Allanswood »

Im going to sound really cynical and would like to see a super sized scan of the word TWO.

It may be my eyes - but at the moment Im sure I can see a shadow of a S behind the T. :o :shock:

The SIX may have been erased and the TWO inserted by someone who new what they were doing. As thats the only area you need to alter from a 6d stamp.

But Im on your side - I hope its real! :D
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Hi Allanswood - thanks for the comment.

I've included a closeup of the "TWO PENCE" for you.

The scan is taken at 2400 DPI - high resolution and sharp contrast.

There doesn't appear to be anything odd to me...the tear between the 'P' and the 'E' of "PENCE" can also be seen clearly.

I think that not only would the 'S' in "SIX" need to have been erased and replaced but also the 'I' and the 'X'...someone would certainly have had to have known what they were doing!!!

I'm pretty sure its a genuine copy - particularly after Greg I's. very constructive and enlightening input.

Image

Cheers - Matt
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Global Administrator »

Allanswood wrote:
The SIX may have been erased and the TWO inserted by someone who new what they were doing.
That is exactly how the fakes of this are generally done. As the cancel appears perfectly over the area in queston is the main reason I felt it was OK.

Also much more relevant, a forger is NOT going to do all that work on a highly defective stamp.

But be aware some stunning fakes of WA are about, as per this post of mine elsewhere.

==============

The FORGED central stamp below was BRILLIANTLY done.

A forger painted in all the outer frames and all lettering with a fine camel's hair brush in blue - upside down of course, and THEN painted in a fake cancel over the top of it all!

It fooled the MOST senior collectors and dealers for decades as outlined here.

https://www.glenstephens.com/snmay06.html

Swans Everywhere

Another thing I saw on display in Washington was at least 4 genuine copies of the legendary Western Australia 1854 4d "Inverted Swan" - or "Inverted Frame" ... whichever description you prefer to use.

(These were also on display at "Pacific Explorer" - a highlight for me personally to see them up close.)

Well there were 5 copies on display of this stamp. All owned by Hong Hong collector, Dr Arthur Woo. The nicest looking one, is not an error at all!

As I reported very many years back in my column, one is a brilliant forgery that fooled leading dealers and Auction houses over many decades as it changed hands as a genuine copy.

Image

Image

Image


Some clever forger had painted in the entire outer border design and wording upside down, and then painted in a superb fake cancel over the top of it all. From the 1920s onwards it was accepted as genuine, until Robson Lowe unfrocked it in 1988.

The legendary collector Colonel E. H. R. Green had bought it in the 1920's - as genuine. Green of course purchased the entire "Inverted Jenny" airmail sheet of 100 off the discoverer, Mr Robey.

This superb Swan forgery was sold on March 11, 1987 at Christie's Robson Lowe New York as part of the "Isleham" collection as lot 250. It realised $US49,500 -- or £30,917 at the current exchange rate of the time. Back 22 years back this was a FORTUNE for any stamp.

Robson Lowe wrote to senior stamp researcher, and publisher Norman Williams in July 1, 1988, after that sale:

"It has turned out to be a fake. The centre is genuine but the frame has been hand-painted and the "S" of POSTAGE is in a different position, and the e"E" is too high. It is curious that this variety should have existed for 64 years, and I think it must have been one of Singer's productions ...."

Later, the purchaser at the 1987 sale was re-reimbursed. To save face Robbie Lowe "bought it in" for an un-disclosed sum, believed to be a lot less than the hammer price.

Dr Arthur Woo subsequently acquired this fake in the late 1990s to add to his 4 genuine copies - and remember only 7 genuine copies exist worldwide outside of institutional collections.

The lowest 4d stamp shown is the copy that King Carol of Romania fled the country with in 1940. A death squad of the Romanian fascist party Iron Guard legionnaires (partly financed by the Nazis) fired on the Royal Train near the Yugoslavian border, but failed to stop it.

The King and his mistress lay on the floor and escaped injury from the bullets.

Selling the stamp helped finance his luxurious life in exile. A Melbourne collector later purchased it. (The late) Simon Dunkerley then sold it to Sydney collector, and ex Danish consul Mogens Juhl in October 1992 for $A60.000 - even when Mogens knew he was close to death with terminal cancer. He died the next year.

Upon Juhl's death it was auctioned by Macray Watson selling on October 19, 1993 for $A57,500 plus commission - or $A63,250. It would be worth several times that today.

Another copy shown at TOP is the example famous Australian collector John Gartner sold in 1979 in Geneva for the then huge price of £67,222. Soon afterwards his Mount Macedon mansion was burnt to the ground in the Black Friday bushfire disaster, and the world's best Fiji collection, and many other priceless stamp gems were lost forever.

John and Zelma - both VERY elderly that point, rebuilt the home exactly as it had been, and John told me - "Zelma liked that, as she could change the position of a few doorways seeing we started again."

And the CENTRE illustration is the clever forgery.

It fooled the stamp world for decades, and was in major collections - listed and exhibited as a genuine stamp.

My guess is the top copy would fetch more like $A250,000 if sold today. Possibly closer to $500,000 the way 'Inverted Jenny's' have been going lately, (US$1 million plus) and there are 100 of those known.


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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Greg Ioannou »

Comparing the lettering in Matt's copy with that in one in the usual shade chosen at random from my collection:

Image

Image

I'm not seeing anything there to make me suspicious.

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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Allanswood »

Are there know variances in the corner flowers and frame on the plate?

The side by side Yellow/Mauve image is compelling. What I mean is that I "see" a shadow bottom of the letter "S" between the T and the W.

I know the flowers and design is real - not fake, but the corner flowers and inner frame lines shown here are not the same on the Mauve and Yellow stamps.

Actually I dont like most of the lettering on the stamp compared to the 6d shown. (The spacing, construction and positioning of the letters do not exactly match to my eyes).

Anybody asked Albumweeds to have look?

Much like Glens inverted frame fake - if you know what to look for I picked the centre one not based on the fact that its too good as a print but by looking at the way each letter has been placed and constucted (especially if this was painted in by hand). You can be the worlds best steady handed filler inner - but you can't beat a close up side by side comparison with a real plate printed stamp or a scan. At a good long glance without a close up you could be fooled at first. For example look closely at the R in FOUR - different "R" and the "S" in Australia, different "S" fake stamp.

But not when you look at it long enough. With only 6 or 7? other examples to use for reference it got by, until someone finally went "That doesnt look right". And someone believed him.


Back to the 2d mauve. Dont forget, if its a fake, nothing says this stamp was not perfect when first printed or altered. The damage could have occured after the fact. Thats why I would discount the "who would use a damaged stamp to fake it" theory.

And of course this all supports the get it checked out and certified, even now damaged my cat suggests its worth $14,000 or so (discounted for damage). But very rare.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Allanswood »

Some close ups...
Some areas of concern?

Image

and with Glens invert frames...

shape and size of lettering - dead giveaway...

Image

sorry couldnt make it any bigger but it can be seen.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Global Administrator »

Greg but you are not comparing apples with apples.

The 1854 swans were locally printed via crude LITHOGRAPHIC stones, using a transfer blanket to create the impressions.

EVERY stamp was different. Not so on these steel plate printed issues of decades later.
Image
This is the actual massive limestone lithographic stone used to print the 4d and 1/- swans, showing just how hard it was to get a good impression - AND good margins.

It also shows the legendary "Inverted Frame" position.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Allanswood »

Great photo!

Now at least I can refer to the stamp by its proper name - Inverted Frame ( as the Swan is not upside down)

Can-O-Worms question - If there is only 7 known, why arent there more seeing as it would have been 1 stamp on each sheet?
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Global Administrator »

Greg - there are 15 recorded .. half are in Museums etc. Dr Woo owns half the ones possible to own.

A new transfer was done soon after the stone shown was laid down.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by snaws »

Hi Pod

At first look I thought this stamp may be good.

But I now have my doubts. I hope I am wrong.

The genuine error of colour is in a pale mauve shade yours look too red on my screen.

You will need to scan it along side a six pence mauve & lilac with crown cc wmk perf 12 ½ to be certain.

The six pence violet in your first scan is in fact a badly oxidised lilac or reddish lilac as it is perf 14 so either sg75 ,sg79 or sg80 depending on the watermark.

The six pence in your latest scan is also lilac this is watermark crown ca perf 12 sg85 not perf 12 ½
If you have an example of crown cc perf 12 ½ mauve and lilac please scan them all together with the error of colour.

Over the years I have seen two examples with the six removed and painted over as two.

One was in the JUHL sale in 1993 in his collection of forgeries lot 195.

The other example I cant be sure where I saw it but they were both very well done and almost impossible to detect except that the forger made a mistake and did it to the wrong shade - they were both on the lilac shade.

Like allanswood says the faking was probably not done on a damaged stamp but the stamp may have been thinned whilst removing a fake or FAUX handstamp which are sometimes quite tiny.

Here are samples of the shades including a mint error of colour to compare with but as I said earlier all scanner and computer screens show colours differently.

Image


Hope this is of some help.

P.S. You should get it certified if you are keeping it or if selling it you would be best to send it to one of the Australian auction houses like Prestige [who have handled a lot of error of colours] and they will tell you for sure if any doubts about the shade.

Regards snaws
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Many thanks Snaws

I agree - my stamp on the scan does come up 'redder' though in the plain light of day this is not so apparent and actually leans towards the 'Lilac/ Violet' group and whilst the 'reddidh' hue is still there I can't work out why it is showing up so 'red' on the scanner.

But if I put this aside for the moment, I think it is worth raising a couple of points about this stamp in general.

I don't have any doubts that the stamp is genuine - but there is something of a challenge in describing the colour and that will lead me on to other points shortly.

In the Western Australian Study Group Publication (1979) it's pointed out that there is no certainty as to the exact date of the stamps' printing - somewhere between 1864 and 1874; a 10 year period. Regarding the printing of the "Error of Colour" the text goes on to say: "...it is assumed that it took place at the start of the six penny printing of 1874..." (page 70).

In this text no actual written colour description is provided. Whilst we have the image of the stamp from the Western Australian Museum to go on, it is only implied, based on the above statement that, that the 2d error of colour should be that of the same printing of the 6d CC stamps.

Furthermore this text goes on to list the CC watermark on this stamp as CC sideways (page 74) - incongruent with the understanding that the watermark on these stamps is CC upright...is the WA Museum one sideways or upright?

The actual image illustrated in this text (and earlier in this thread) does have a distinct 'reddish' hue that appears to be aligned to the stamp in question and not the stamps that have been illustrated above.

If we then refer to Pope's, "The Philatelic Collection of the Western Australian Museum" (page 14) - Pope describes the colour as "pale lilac". [Pope also states that the error occured "sometime between 1874 and 1876"...a little more precise that the earlier publication.]

Pope also notes that "a block of 60" was ordered by Stanley Gibbons.

Now, the 'mauve' description appears to be Stanley Gibbons in origin and one assumes they had an established standard against which they could make that assessment. It should be noted at this point that the Violet/ Lilac group is distinctly different to the 'Mauve' group, the latter having distinct 'reddish' tones whilst the former tends more towards the 'blues'.

...out comes SG colour swatch, 6d pale lilac CC upright stamp for comparison and stamp in question...you tell me :?: :!:

Image

Also and just to throw a little more confusion into the mix, have a look at the following link:

https://www.sandafayre.com/gallery/country_26_3.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Once you have had a chance to take all this in - do we have more than one 'error of colour'?

Cheers - Matt
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by snaws »

Hi pod.

Firstly sorry to burst your bubble but i still doubt your stamp is correct.

Here are some replies to your last post.
Furthermore this text goes on to list the CC watermark on this stamp as CC sideways (page 74) - incongruent with the understanding that the watermark on these stamps is CC upright...is the WA Museum one sideways or upright?
Yes all the error of colour stamps are watermark crown cc upright perf 12 ½.

All 6d mauve and 6d lilac with crown cc watermark perf 12 ½ are with upright watermark.

The 2d yellow has the vast majority with upright watermark and a later printing where the watermark was sideways.

The 6d violet is known with a rare sideways watermark but most have upright watermark.
The later issues with crown cc watermrk perf 14 are the opposite with the more common being sideways watermark and rarer are upright watermark.

So to put it in short the error of colour can only have upright watermark.we no longer need to discuss the watermark positions.
Now, the 'mauve' description appears to be Stanley Gibbons in origin and one assumes they had an established standard against which they could make that assessment.

It should be noted at this point that the Violet/ Lilac group is distinctly different to the 'Mauve' group, the latter having distinct 'reddish' tones whilst the former tends more towards the 'blues'.

...out comes SG colour swatch, 6d pale lilac CC upright stamp for comparison and stamp in question...you tell me


Now to the shade.

You are correct this can be confussing but with respect to stanley gibbons colour swatches they are useless if collecting and specialising in australian colonial stamps.

The picture you show of the stamp from the front cover of WESTERN AUSTRALIA The stamps and postal history is there for decoration i doubt it was put there as a colour reference or why is the inverted frame on blued paper. Remember this was printed in 1979 so colour matching was not as precise as the printing methods of today.

Here is a scan of the same stamp from The Philatelic collection of the western australian museum.

Image

This is closer to the correct colour.

If your error of colour is closer to the colour it appears in your original post than the colour i showed then im sorry but it is not correct.

In the last picture you show with the colour guide the 6d stamp is closer to the shade the error of colour should be. That is the stamp that shows me your error of colour is not correct.

But remember this is only my opinion - if you have doubts get it certified.

Regards snaws
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Thanks for the observations Snaws.

I'd like to understand the view that SG swatches "are useless if collecting and specialising in Australian colonial stamps."

Unless the colonialists had a different understanding of the colour pallet to the rest of the world, I would have thought that colour interpretation off a set (swatch) of established standards would have been the basis of any stamp order?

According to Pope's publication a block of 60 was sent to SG. I would have thought that SG would have assessd the colour accurately based on a set of existing standards - as I point out above there is a distinct difference between the "mauve" group of colours and those belonging to the "violet" group...pretty difficult to make a mistake;

and I can't imagine people's understanding of what "mauve" is and what "lilac" is to have altered between 1874 and today?

If the 'mauve' description of SG is accurate, then the pale-lilac description offered by Pope has to be another stamp - doesn't it?

If SG's verbal description of the stamp colour is incorrect - then shouldn't it be altered?

Notwithstanding this, it doesn't explain what appears to be close to true mauve shade for the stamp in question - so what are the likely explanations?

Do you have any observations to make relating to the Sandafayre site link I have included in the above response - since this site records "mauve", "violet" and "lilac" variations?

Is it at all possible that during the time of the 2ds Crown CC production that some experimentation took place with the colour?

Cheers - Matt
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by dwhopper »

When arguing colour forget about using scans and computers. The absolute rendering of colours from one setup to the next will vary by amounts ranging from trivial to enormous.

The only scans of use are side by side so that the relative differences can be ascertained.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by admin »

Image
British Library copy.[/b].

https://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/philrar/w/010au0wa1864s79u00001001.html

Pod's still looks perfectly fine to me - on face value.

Again no-one will forge something this complicated on a highly damaged stamp. :idea:
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Thanks for the scan Glen - nice reference...have made contact with the RVPS and decided to send this stamp off to the Expert Committee.

dwhopper - good point also on the scanning.

Snaws scan showing the the Western Australian Museum copy has been scanned from Pope's (1991) text. It is exactly the same stamp illustrated on the cover of the WA Study Group's publication and included in the link above along side the stamp in question.

If you compare the colouration of the two images (WA Study Group and Pope) they appear quite different with the former appearing 'redder' - but are in fact the same stamp.

If you look at the colour of the image on the outside cover of the WA Study Group's publication (also on the inside of the cover a couple of pages in), it is very close to the stamp in question but appears somewhat disimilar to later images provided in this thread.

When you look at my scans at this point in the thread you will notice that if you compare the colouration of this image along side that associated with the Crown CA mauve example, this latter image of the stamp appears 'redder' than the same image immediately below and adjacent the WA Study Group's cover example.

Cheers and thanks Glen and dwhopper.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by admin »

Image
https://www.stampboards.com/images/prestigephilately/catlot.p ... de=wa&lim=

Image
https://www.stampboards.com/images/prestigephilately/catlot.p ... =wacc&lim=
Regummed - sold for $16,000 plus 16.5%.


Image
https://www.stampboards.com/images/prestigephilately/catlot.p ... =wacc&lim=
Sold for $21,000 plus 16.5%.

Pod, have looked at a few recent sales and do agree there looks to be far too much red/violet in your copy .. it might be your scanner, but it seems the above trio, all with Certs, are a fairly consisent paler shade.

Still is a chance yours is OK, but the deep shade is the worry I'd say. 8)
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Many thanks Glen.

Just out of interest - did you notice the colouration around the area of the base of the swan's neck on the Prestige example with the circular PERTH CDS?

Would be good to get a close-up scan of that section...

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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by admin »

Pod wrote:
Would be good to get a close-up scan of that section...
Here's a handy tip almost no-one seems to know -

Hit Ctrl and the "+" keys together, as much as you wish, and you can blow it up a lot! The use http://www.snagit.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to take an image of it.

Use "CTRL" and "-" keys to get screen back to normal.
.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Thanks for all the input folks.

I've had a go at photographing the stamp in natural light rather than using a scanner and I'm including it here together with the scanned image.

I'm also including for reference a photo of a stamp on eBay for sale by Argylletken described as sg 59 (1872 6d Lilac).

Original Scan

Image

Natural light photo

Image

Argylletkin - ID as SG 59

Image

Cheers - Matt
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

admin wrote:
Again no-one will forge something this compicated on a higly damaged stamp. :idea:
Just a random thought but what if the stamp in question was just a trial for the final colour change forgery :idea:

I have an idea I've read some details about these forgeries in one of my older reference books. I'll have a look tonight and let you know if I find anything.

BTW - I hope it proves to be the real thing and not a forgery :!:
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Thanks Tony - that would be great.

I've also has a look at the following site on international philatelic colour standards - it's all over the place :!:

http://tx4.us/nbs/nbsstamp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

also - this is an excellent reference

http://search.cpan.org/~RKRIMEN/Color-Library-0.02/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess if it was a trial of a colour forgery then it would also have to be scarce.

It would still leave a few unanswered questions...but that's philately.

Cheers - Matt
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Allanswood »

Lakatoi 4 wrote:
admin wrote: Again no-one will forge something this compicated on a higly damaged stamp. :idea:
Just a random thought but what if the stamp in question was just a trial for the final colour change forgery :idea:

I have an idea I've read some details about these forgeries in one of my older reference books. I'll have a look tonight and let you know if I find anything.
BTW - I hope it proves to be the real thing and not a forgery :!:
Of course as I mentioned before - it could have been damaged after being forged (if forged), its not a recent stamp.

The only real international standard for colour would be to use something like the "Pantone" system (colour matched and numbered) used in the print industry. The SG system just isnt enough colours to choose from, they only reference about 200 and they tell you its just a guide not "law". Last time I looked at a Pantone key it was about 2,000.

Then all you have to say is my stamp is "pantone colour 733" - regardless of scanner, monitor, printer, camera etc. Then you look at your Pantone key and know exactly what colour or tone is being talked about!
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

Matt,

Fournier produced two types of postal forgeries for the WA 2d. Swan (type A and B). Other than that, I found nothing regarding the error of colour possible forgery.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Thanks for the feedback guys...the stamp is off to the society as soon as I can arrange it.

I'm hoping that the natural light photograph makes up for what might have been some misleading colour tone related to the scanning.

When I look at the stamp the natural light image is spot on to what I see with the naked eye.

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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by johnrambo »

Pod,

Anything new to report on this?
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by MrSamoa »

If I may ask, what is "snaws"? Not familiar with the term.

Thanks
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Greg Ioannou »

"snaws" is the name of one of our members. Scroll up to see his contribution to this discussion.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by MrSamoa »

OK. I see that he was identifying his stamps with the "snaws" label, which I now see is "swans" backwards.

No wonder that when I Googled "snaws" I couldn't find anything related to stamps or colors.

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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Greeting all - by way of update I contacted John Shawley (RPSV) this week to follow up.

Things are still in process but underway...I'm in the queue.

Cheers - Matt
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by snaws »

Hi Matt.
Just wondering if you have received your certificate yet for the error of colour.
Hope its good news.
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Pod »

Hi Snaws...not a single communication at this point from the RPSV.

Either there is a very long queue or they are still out to lunch on this one.

It's 2+ months since they received the item and still not a word...is that length of time for expertising usual (can anyone answer)?

I'll drop them another line today.

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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by johnrambo »

Hi Matt

Has there been any progress with the RPSV?

I see the following mint example achieved $6750 at the recent Prestige auction.

Image

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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by ozstamps »

johnrambo wrote:
I see the following mint example achieved $6750 at the recent Prestige auction.

Cheers
I get sick of typing this on the boards but most simply do not get it. This stamp did not achieve "$6,750" at auction.

It was a dreaded "T" lot, and for an ozzie buyer the invoice would read -

Hammer price - $6,750
Plus 10% GST on $6,750 = $675
Plus 15% buyer's fee on $6,750 = $1,012
Invoice total before postage, packing, insurance - $A8,437

So unless $1,687 is meaningless small change for you, the actual COST is $A8,437.

I talk to a dozen people a week who appear blissfully unaware of this minor little reality check. It astounds me.

"It sold last week for $5000 at auction - very reasonable really" etc, (i.e. $6,325 invoice price) when telling me my $5,500 price for the same thing seems a little high!

And do not even get me started on the dopey vendor who (eventually!) gets usually only $5,735 for the same stamp the buyer cheerfully pays for $8,437 for.

Add 50% to $5,735 and you see how much the vendor loses out by. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by punter »

And do not even get me started on the dopey vendor who (eventually!) gets usually only $5,735 for the same stamp the buyer cheerfully pays for $8,437 for.

Add 50% to $5,735 and you see how much the vendor loses out by. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Glen
I don't quite get the point here.

How would this "dopey vendor" achieve this sale at $8600 ($5735 + 50%) without going to auction?

Would it sell on Stamboards at that price?

Would a dealer pay him that price? Would he even get $5735 from a dealer?

What other options would he have?

The vendor would not really care what the buyer paid. He is only interested in what he receives for the item.

In this case he got $5735 and had the item exposed world wide to interested buyers, something he could not do himself.

Guide me carefully if I am wrong here without being rude!
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Global Administrator »

punter wrote:
I don't quite get the point here.

How would this "dopey vendor" achieve this sale at $8600 ($5735 + 50%) without going to auction?

Would a dealer pay him that price? Would he even get $5735 from a dealer?
The short answer is generally YES and YES.

It is VERY simple math. :lol:

Where do you think most large dealers source their stock? From the SAME auctions being referred to above!

I frankly do not care WHERE stock comes from .. a good stamp is worth exactly "X" to me whether offered to me direct, on via auction - and the price I offer is based on that.

As I have clearly posted for decades - https://www.glenstephens.com/buying.html

If an Auction is going to add 20% on top of my bid, I simply reduce my bid by that 20% to factor that in. So the Vendor directly loses that 20%, plus the ~15-20% the auction charges them as well.

At least if offered to a larger dealer or several large dealers you can DECLINE the offer if it is not up to par. At auction you are locked into WHATEVER it gets.

If it goes to Auction with even an ESTIMATE at that same figure a dealer offered CASH, that auction will generally open at 75% of estimate if there is only 1 bid. i.e. you turn down $10,000 cash and some auction starts the bidding at $7,500. Brilliant stuff.

If there remains just 1 bid as often occurs, you will get 75% of what you were offered cash, LESS all the Auction commissions - AND wait months for the money.

Sound smart to you? :lol: :lol:

Here is a true story I wrote in "Stamp News" on a specific stamp that underlines the point. And is has a WA connection, so is relevant to this thread! :D

It might seem like a piece of pulp fiction, but I guarantee you every word is true.
Image


I received a phone call in January from a reader who had seen my then current stamp column. In that column I photographed a KGV 2d Orange with a Burracoppin Western Australia cancel that had an inverted watermark. It is illustrated nearby.

Owner lost $3,000

A collector had asked me if I would buy that stamp for $12,000. I had said "YES", did not argue about the price, and lined up a firm sale for it, which took quite a deal of time. The seller then got the brain flash to send the stamp to auction where it did not do very well.

Bottom line - that genius ended up with $3,000 LESS in his hand than he would have received had he sold it to me for cash. And he received it months later.

I missed out of course on my $1,000 commission on the sale, that would have prevailed had the sale proceeded. So no-one was happy - except the auctioneer, and even he may have tales of woe to tell us.

A weird story, and one I hope all sellers of expensive stamps keep in mind. Auction is NOT always the guaranteed way to get the highest price, or the fastest price, as that story proves for all time.


=================
Image
Or a totally up to date story. Member here Michael Eastick is offering this folder (shown above held by another dealer!) as his feature item this week for $A25,000.

https://www.stampboards.com/images/michaeleastick

As I outline in my next column, it sold last month at auction for about $A16,000 invoice. Meaning the vendor got about $13,000 - if indeed they have received it yet.

As you SERIOUSLY suggesting any larger dealer would offer you less than $13,000 for this?

I'd suggest the TEN leading ozzie dealers would all have offered way over $13,000 CASH on the spot for this folder. All day, every day.

I certainly bid $1,000s more than that for it, as did several dealers. As I had a client who offered me $19,000 for it, and I'd have done a quick sale deal.

The ONLY losers here are the vendors. :idea:

Agree?

Full story on that folder here -

https://www.glenstephens.com/snjuly10.html

Glen
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by punter »

Thanks for your explanation Glen.

I agree with you on the cases quoted because we have the benefit of hindsight. How could I disagree?

Yes, I guess going to auction is like betting on a horse at the TAB. You don't know what price you will get till after the race is run and all bets are in. I've won and lost many times in this scenario.

I guess where you sell your philatelic gems is always going to be a gamble, but to some extent you can make an educated guess which is best for many individual items.

At auction, all you need is two determined bidders who upbid each other above the current supposed value.

I think I have been such a bidder a few times myself, but mostly have found that time has healed that exuberance.

I may well have to decide my opinions in all this in the not too distant future!
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by Global Administrator »

Punter -- sadly in about 50% of cases stamps are dumped into auction as the collector dies without a Will.

Incredible to believe but true.

He may have planned all his life to sell his stuff to Me, to Juzwin, to Eastick to Max Stern etc, but that all goes out the window once the Public Trustee takes charge.

Sure they might only get HALF what a dealer who knew the material well would pay for the same stuff, but the Public Trustee is not interested in that. They want a hassle free dispersion of all assets. And auction is how they do that.

Specialised collections dumped into a carton with "Interesting world material in 20 albums plus glassines, please inspect, estimate $500" - might have goodies in there I'd pay $1,000s for. However they typically do not even photo one item from such lots. :twisted: :twisted:

Each major auction is crammed with such lots. The auction does not care - THEY levy both buyer and seller commission, and the less work taken in lotting it, the more juicy their take.

As I have written before in 'Stamp News' - and I suggest it is WELL worth a read -

http://www.glenstephens.com/sndecember03.html

Roughly half of all Australians die intestate. That is, they die without leaving a valid, Legal Will. I have no doubt similar figures apply to British and American readers. Naturally, none of us wishes to die unexpectedly - but we are all mortal, and accidents happen every day.

Less than 50% of Australians prepare a legal Will, often in the mistaken belief that all their worldly goods and chattels will automatically go to their next of kin. Without a Will, the Government may levy death duties and the Government also decides on the distribution of the assets.

You may wish to make a bequest to a friend or relative to acknowledge a special relationship. There may be items of sentimental or monetary value that you wish to give to a specific person. You may wish to leave a portion of your estate to a favourite charity, institution or cause. Unless this is specified in a Will it will likely NOT occur.


<<< - snip - >>>

Having read all the above, why not take some time this winter to think a little about your own situation, and ask 'what will happen to my stamps if I pass away unexpectedly?' I'm darn sure no-one reading this would enjoy the thought of a lifetime of collecting being 'given away' simply because your family has no idea of a reliable person or firm to approach.

In my long experience 95% of collectors are MALE, and they often advise their families, and wife in particular, that stamps are a low cost pastime, with little or no "real" money ever being spend on them.

These same clients quietly spend $1000's a year with me, and goodness knows what with other dealers and auctions. The number of orders I ship Registered mail to business addresses, and get paid by business credit cards for this precise reason, would astound many readers!

I'm just as often paid in 'cash' via Money Order or bank transfer using cash, for the same reasons. The buyers go to great pains to ensure the 'good lady' doesn't realise that each month a $250 CTO 5/- Sydney Harbour Bridge, or a 1988 Year album, set of 1994 P.N.G. overprints, or a 'Penny Black' etc, is being quietly purchased. I'm certain EVERY large dealer and Auction house in the world will have many clients doing precisely the same thing.

This is WHY absurdly low 'bric-a-brac Man' offers are frequently accepted by widows and families. 'George did say he never spent any money on them, so I suppose $200 is a fair enough offer' scenario. For a lifetime they have heard George stress: 'the stamps are of little value', or: 'I only collect the cheap ones, for the fun of it' etc.

LEAVE INSTRUCTIONS:

In view of the above, please give some serious thought to leaving a precise note among your personal papers, or with your Solicitor, or better still in your Will. Simply advise precisely how you wish your material disposed of in the event of your death.

If you are lazy, why not at least tear out this page, and leave that with your papers, which will serve as a warning to the family not to accept the local second-hand dealer's offer at least!

Either way, you owe it to your family to do something positive. Often the dealer or Auction house from whom you mostly purchase will be precisely aware of the special value of any unusual or specialist items you have.

Often your wife or husband will have met or spoken to your most usual suppliers, which makes the process a lot easier after a bereavement, rather than dealing with a totally unknown person or firm selected from the local Yellow Pages or whatever.

Likewise for stamp DEALERS. They have stocks that typically run into $100,000's, and frequently millions of value. I have specifically noted in my Will a trusted colleague to be engaged by the Executor to lot and sell my stock to best effect.

I have instructed in writing that he be paid his usual hourly rate and all expenses connected with the work. You'd be amazed how few dealers make ANY such arrangement, and likewise often receive a fraction of the true value of their lifetime stock.

etc
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Re: Western Australia 2d Error of Colour

Post by snaws »

Hi Matt.

Still no news on the cert?

It's taking a lot longer than i would have expected.

I notice you have a couple of 4d blue cut to shape stamps on ebay at the moment you might want to include in your description that the first stamp is infact transfer variety A of POSTAGE with thin right limb it will add to the final price i'm sure sg3w.

Image

Regards Snaws
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