Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

News items. General trends, new issues, new policies etc. **Whatever** you like. WORLDWIDE. Start a new thread on your question. Please do not discuss ebay in THIS forum as we have a separate and popular Forum for that discussion.

Moderator: Volunteer Moderator Team

Post Reply
User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 58635
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

clive willingham wrote:
I haven't learned how to copy pictures from previous postings
Right click on ANY photo and simply take the url from PROPERTIES (IE) or VIEW IMAGE INFO (Firefox) and paste it here.

If you use the CTRL+C key to copy, and CTRL+V key to paste the link, the entire operation takes 10 seconds.

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Image

Glen,

Testing, one - two - three. Bingo!

You the main man, man. 8)

Clive

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 58635
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Uh, Oooh .. no stopping you now! :mrgreen:

User avatar
josto
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3182
Joined: 06 Sep 2007 07:16
Location: Germany

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by josto »

Hi!

Here are some cto`s that were also on auction from the german guy with the 1d pair. Unfortunately I was absent, when the auctions ended, so I placed some bids before I drove to austria. And I was able to get some of them. I liked the ones with selvedge, as they do look very nice! I think no one recognized the left 1/2d green KGV as cto as the pair went for only 6$. Unfortunately I didn`t get the 4d with broken value tablet.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Greetings

User avatar
mstary1
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 729
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 19:52
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by mstary1 »

Here is the 4D Roo that just went for about $55.


Image

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Peter,
Global Administrator wrote:
Uh, Oooh .. no stopping you now!


You mean there was a chance of stopping him before???
Peter, what's that about pots and kettles, and people in glasshouses????!!!!! :shock: :shock: :lol:

Clive

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

clive willingham wrote:Peter,
Global Administrator wrote:
Uh, Oooh .. no stopping you now!


You mean there was a chance of stopping him before???
Peter, what's that about pots and kettles, and people in glasshouses????!!!!! :shock: :shock: :lol:

Clive
We were talking about you, dear Clive, not about me! :D
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

Josto, your second halfpenny (the yellow green shade) is not a CTO. The 3d Roo has the flat topped 3 (of Dec 3), a distinct cancel from the norm.
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

mstary1 wrote:Here is the 4D Roo that just went for about $55.


Image
Also the flat topped 3 cancel. A bargain in my opinion!
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Josto,

So pleased to have your company here!! :D

Nice buying. I especially like the 2½d indigo, the jubilee line really sets it off. Here's another, a left-hander to go with your right-hander -
Image
Your KGV ½d green CTO is a pearler, as is its non-CTO yellow-green companion. A bargain for the price.

Clive

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Peter,
Also the flat topped 3 cancel. A bargain in my opinion!
Yes, sure is.

I've seen several of these flat-topped 3d CTOs, all having a 'heavy-handed' cancel. Can we deduce that the person who applied the flat-topped three canceller was (a) left-handed and (b) not enjoying his/her work?
Image
Is my memory correct that it was in fact on Stampboards that the 'flat-topped' 3 was first brought to some light? Perhaps it was you. Anyway, a fascinating addition to our ever-increasing storehouse of CTO knowledge.

Clive

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 58635
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

I'd never heard of the flat top 3 other than on this board.

They certainly do look a lot less commonly seen .

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

Global Administrator wrote:I'd never heard of the flat top 3 other than on this board.

They certainly do look a lot less commonly seen .
Interestingly, if you have a look at the photos of CTOs in the ACSC, you will see that they are displayed there (on a pair of Twopence Halfpenny Kangaroos from memory).

The top of the 3 is often 'missing' and the cancel could then be mistaken for a 'Dec 6 13' date, which is where I suspect any reference to that date as a CTO cancel actually comes from. That is to say, I don't believe there were any stamps CTOd with a Dec 6 date.
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

These are about to go off on eBay, seller 3partners.
"broken link deleted"
This is the third or fourth time this set has come up for sale in recent months.

Starting price is $US775 ($852 Oz dollars), which seems awful steep, even if the stamps are said to have original gum.

What do our CTO aficionados think - overpriced or worth every cent?

Clive

User avatar
RodT
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 602
Joined: 17 Jan 2009 16:16
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by RodT »

clive willingham wrote: What do our CTO aficionados think - overpriced or worth every cent?
Clive
Clive, I saw the same set (1st watermark) today, and commented to my wife that I should be allowed to buy them. You can imagine how that went down. :)

The ACSC catalogue value for these, if my maths is correct is $1300.00, with the last three accounting for the bulk of the price. 1/- $500, 2/- $150, 5/- $200.

On balance, I think I would prefer to try and pick these up individually, at "bargain" prices.

For someone with the disposable income though, this would be a nice way to pick up the 1st watermarks.

The problem I have with the current catalogue pricing is that the same number of CTO copies were available for each denomination (2000), yet the lower values, 4d through 9d, are only valued at $75.00, and the others at $35.00 or less.
IPDA Webmaster. Visit KoalaStamps for quality Oceania, Asia and Europe sets and singles.

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 58635
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

RodT wrote:
The ACSC catalogue value for these, if my maths is correct is $1300.00, with the last three accounting for the bulk of the price. 1/- $500, 2/- $150, 5/- $200.

Sigh. :shock: :roll:

$1300 catalogue for THAT lot - really? It is nowhere near 4 figures even.

Tell your wife she is smarter than she looks. :idea:
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

User avatar
RodT
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 602
Joined: 17 Jan 2009 16:16
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by RodT »

Global Administrator wrote:
RodT wrote:
The ACSC catalogue value for these, if my maths is correct is $1300.00, with the last three accounting for the bulk of the price. 1/- $500, 2/- $150, 5/- $200.

Sigh. :shock: :roll:

$1300 catalogue for THAT lot - really? It is nowhere near 4 figures even.

Tell your wife she is smarter than she looks. :idea:
Hmm... not sure I'm understanding you Glen. Add these catalogue values up:-

½d $25
1d $25
2d $35
2½d $35
3d $35
4d $75
5d $75
6d $75
9d $75
1/- $500
2/- $150
5/- $200
IPDA Webmaster. Visit KoalaStamps for quality Oceania, Asia and Europe sets and singles.

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 58635
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Swap over the number that says "$500" on your list, and insert the corrrect number "$75" in it's place.. and you will see why these ebay sellers mysteriously do not quote catalogue values for such things, and hope and pray you are the possible buyer. :idea: :lol:

Smart wife. :idea:

Our seller is essentially asking full ACSC .. and that includes some very ropey looking copies among it.

User avatar
RodT
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 602
Joined: 17 Jan 2009 16:16
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by RodT »

Global Administrator wrote:Swap over the number that says "$500" on your list, and insert the corrrect number "$75" in it's place.. and you will see why these ebay sellers mysteriously do not quote catalogue values for such things, and hope and pray you are the possible buyer. :idea: :lol:
So, wouldn't it have been easier all round for you to say you believe the catalogue price of $500 to be wrong. Here's the catalogue page for reference:-

Image
IPDA Webmaster. Visit KoalaStamps for quality Oceania, Asia and Europe sets and singles.

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 58635
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

No, the catalogue price is RIGHT. I'd put this down to "user error". 8)

Rod .. see the little "l" next to the price of 30w?

It IS there for a reason. It is not a flyspeck.

Turn the page. :lol:

There all will be revealed and unless the CTO on ebay is UPRIGHT watermark (which appear not to exist as outlined earlier on ths thread) you will finally agree (I hope .. it is a long lesson here!) that CTO is $75.

Or let me word this another way ... I'll sell you TEN CTO copies for $750 if you believe they are cat $5,000 as it appears.

See if the missus will go for THAT one. :mrgreen:

See "bargains" are not restricted to ebay ... buy from Stevo at 15% of ACSC. Coff.

(Can someone remind why I do not sell on ebay .. I'd be a millionare by Xmas!)

User avatar
RodT
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 602
Joined: 17 Jan 2009 16:16
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by RodT »

Global Administrator wrote:No, the catalogue price is RIGHT. I'd put this down to "user error". 8)

Rod .. see the little "l" next to the price of 30w?

It IS there for a reason. It is not a flyspeck.

Turn the page. :lol:

There all will be revealed and unless the CTO on ebay is UPRIGHT watermark (which appear not to exist as outlined earlier on ths thread) you will finally agree (I hope .. it is a long lesson here!) that CTO is $75.

Or let me word this another way ... I'll sell you TEN CTO copies for $750 if you believe they are cat $5,000 as it appears.

See if the missus will go for THAT one. :mrgreen:

See "bargains" are not restricted to ebay ... buy from Stevo at 15% of ACSC. Coff.

(Can someone remind why I do not sell on ebay .. I'd be a millionare by Xmas!)
Thanks for the lesson Glen :) ...NOTE to Geoff Kellows - your catalogue here is bloody obtuse! Just say:-

CTO, wmk inverted $75
CTO, wmk upright $500
IPDA Webmaster. Visit KoalaStamps for quality Oceania, Asia and Europe sets and singles.

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Rod,

Yes, about $850 all up, and by and large they are not the worse set you might see.

I'm more than happy for them to be offered, as a minimum, at $OZ850 but I'll be surprised if they attract a bid.

On the other hand blueowl2000 has just sold a MINT set of first watermark roos to the 10/- value for $OZ1036.

I guess that puts the $OZ850 asking price for the CTOs into some sort of perspective.

Clive

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Rod,
Thanks for the lesson Glen ...NOTE to Geoff Kellows - your catalogue here is bloody obtuse! Just say:-
CTO, wmk inverted $75
CTO, wmk upright $500
The devil is in the detail of those pesky footnotes. :P

As for the CTO upright wmk at $500, I wish that such a beast existed and was available at that price.

Unless it can be proved otherwise, I don't believe there is any evidence whatsoever for the existence of a 1/- first wmk CTO with upright watermark. If the wee beastie does exist, it's more likely to be a $5000 item IMHO.

This thread, if it keeps going strong and long like it is at the moment, will shortly be far more authoritative in relation to Oz CTOs than any catalogue, the ACSC included.

Clive

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

I think this is an oddity, but maybe I'm overlooking something simple, as is often the case.
Image
A clear 15 April 1913 cancel. Most probably from a presentation set. Has anyone else got a copy of a first wmk CTO roo with this particular date?

Clive

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 58635
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

RodT wrote:
Thanks for the lesson Glen :) ...NOTE to Geoff Kellows - your catalogue here is bloody obtuse! Just say:-

CTO, wmk inverted $75
CTO, wmk upright $500
Yes agree it is a trap for new players.

The "l" note he strangely puts next to the CTO stamp AND the Invert.

However when you see Juzwin list it as "1/- Inverted Wmk (CTO) $75" that does give a clue. :lol:

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

clive willingham wrote:I think this is an oddity, but maybe I'm overlooking something simple, as is often the case.
Image]
A clear 15 April 1913 cancel. Most probably from a presentation set. Has anyone else got a copy of a first wmk CTO roo with this particular date?

Clive
Clive, I have seen that date before (but I don't have one). I am certain they were for a Presentation set.

It is very clear, I think anyway, that the Specimen sets were all Dec 3 13. They did the makeup of the sets all at once in late 1913. 5,000 sets produced meant just under 41 sheets of each value (say 41 on average with spoilage, which there must have been in such a laboriously manual process).

Given the printing processes, that probably explains why the 1/- is always inverted and (at least from memory, not near my catalogue) all other values are always upright. The 1/- sheets pulled out to make up the sets were probably sequential and a quantity of sheets had been positioned upside down (the pre-cut sheets were almost square). Actually, come to think of it, need to research the printing process a little! How many sheets were prepared for printing at a time would give a good indication if this hypthesis is true.
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Peter,

You advanced that theory re the 1/- inverted wmk just a little while ago. That, together with your point about the other first watermark CTOs all being upright watermark makes great good sense. Especially in the context of my theory that the upright wmk 1/- may in fact not even exist or, if it does, is one of the most elusive of all Australian Commonwealth stamps.

Just on that cancel of April 15, the others I have are April 24. Maybe there were two separate usages, for example the earlier date being for say UPU specimen sets and the slightly later date for presentation sets to assorted local bigwigs. Would make some sense because you would think the UPU sets would be done first.

The last values of the first wmk roos were not printed and ready for dustibution until 8 April, so 15 April is very likely the first CTO date to appear on a kangaroo and map stamp.

I don't think there is any doubt at all that the only date found on the stamps in first wmk collectors' sets is, as you say, 3 December 1913. Mind you, I've never heard it suggested otherwise.

Did that item arrive yet?

Clive

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

clive willingham wrote:Peter,

You advanced that theory re the 1/- inverted wmk just a little while ago. That, together with your point about the other first watermark CTOs all being upright watermark makes great good sense. Especially in the context of my theory that the upright wmk 1/- may in fact not even exist or, if it does, is one of the most elusive of all Australian Commonwealth stamps.

Just on that cancel of April 15, the others I have are April 24. Maybe there were two separate usages, for example the earlier date being for say UPU specimen sets and the slightly later date for presentation sets to assorted local bigwigs. Would make some sense because you would think the UPU sets would be done first.

The last values of the first wmk roos were not printed and ready for dustibution until 8 April, so 15 April is very likely the first CTO date to appear on a kangaroo and map stamp.

I don't think there is any doubt at all that the only date found on the stamps in first wmk collectors' sets is, as you say, 3 December 1913. Mind you, I've never heard it suggested otherwise.

Did that item arrive yet?

Clive
Clive, arrived yesterday thanks very much.

May dates could co-incide with presentation sets of complete series to Federal Parliamentarians, since all values were by then issued. I must admit, I can't remeber whether the May date I have seen is 15th or 24th.

As to repeating my theory, I am getting old and the memory isn't as good as it used to be....umm? What was I saying again? :lol:
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Peter,
May dates could co-incide with presentation sets of complete series to Federal Parliamentarians, since all values were by then issued. I must admit, I can't remeber whether the May date I have seen is 15th or 24th.
No, not May dates, April dates. We know there are two dates in April, the 15th and the 24th. This suggests two different 'runs' with the CTO cancellers, and I theorise the earlier one was for UPUU specimen sets just on the basis that the government would have needed to get them out quite fast, as required by UPU rules. The later date was more probably the one used for the presentation sets. Or that's my theory. :? :)

As for your theory, I meant the one about the sheets from which the CTO stamps were printed just by accident all coming from a run of inverted sheets.

Clive

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

clive willingham wrote:Peter,
May dates could co-incide with presentation sets of complete series to Federal Parliamentarians, since all values were by then issued. I must admit, I can't remeber whether the May date I have seen is 15th or 24th.
No, not May dates, April dates.
Clive
See? Told you I was going senile! :D
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

The 4d oranges are my favourite KGV heads, along with the 4d blues. I don't have many of either in CTO, but these are nice examples.
ImageImage
The left stamp is inverted watermark. Actually, I only discovered this in recent weeks. This thread has got me looking at all my CTOs and in the process of taking them out for scanning I belatedly realised this one is inverted watermark. :oops: :oops: And I've had the stamp for years.

There's just nothing ought be taken for granted in the world of stamps.

Clive

User avatar
davpot
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 503
Joined: 14 May 2007 01:28
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by davpot »

Say, I was just wondering if one was an invert! I have this same pair Clive. I'll have to see if the invert is listed under CTO. I kind of think not, maybe one for Kellows update?
I love the variation in shades on this one. And You've got a Cool little pair there Clive. Odd how they could have gotten some inverts if the run of CTO cancelling was done over a short period. Very "cool" as they say.
Dave :mrgreen:
david b. potts

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

davpot wrote:Say, I was just wondering if one was an invert! I have this same pair Clive. I'll have to see if the invert is listed under CTO. I kind of think not, maybe one for Kellows update?
I love the variation in shades on this one. And You've got a Cool little pair there Clive. Odd how they could have gotten some inverts if the run of CTO cancelling was done over a short period. Very "cool" as they say.
Dave :mrgreen:
Dave, inverted WMK is more common in some stamps than others. Where it is relatively common (still always rarer than WMK upright) then the chances of inverted CTOs existing is fairly good. Now, what I would really like to find is an inverted 4d Blue CTO! :)
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
davpot
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 503
Joined: 14 May 2007 01:28
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by davpot »

Amen CTO Brother! Doses such an animal exist? Ive always ASSUMED that CTO cancellations were applied during a pretty narrow time range, which might favor a narrower print/watermark selection. Other possibilities?
Dave :mrgreen:
david b. potts

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

davpot wrote:Amen CTO Brother! Doses such an animal exist? Ive always ASSUMED that CTO cancellations were applied during a pretty narrow time range, which might favor a narrower print/watermark selection. Other possibilities?
Dave :mrgreen:
Dave, it's an interesting question. When the authorities decided to include obsolete issues in the sets, in an effort to bolster sales, I presume that they canceled a supply that they considered sufficient for a period, ot that was available. The question is, did they cancel all available stocks and then include them in sets till exhausted? Or did they cancel new stocks, from held stocks (they certainly wouldn't have made new printings), on an as required basis?

I am inclined to the view that there was really only a single cancel applied to any individual stamp, as a general rule. Once the stocks were exhausted the stamp disappeared from the sets. There are probably exceptions to this, as there is in almost anything to do with beauracracy.

A close study of cancellation dates is certainly needed. I don't know if that research has been done.

If my hypothesis is true, then pretty much all officials (whether perforated OS or overprinted) should have the same date as those I showed earlier in this thread. That date should pretty much co-incide with the decision to include these items (which were on their way out anyway) in Specimen sets.
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Another flat-topped '3' -
Image
My theory is that there were probably four cancellers used for the intial run of collectors' packs, and that there were four people involved in applying the cancels. And the one that had in his (most likely male) hand the only canceller with the flat-topped '3' consistently applied it with more force than his oppos. And probably inked it more often and cleaned it less often.

And was a left-hander.

Clive

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 58635
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

clive willingham wrote:
My theory is that there were probably four cancellers used for the intial run of collectors' packs, and that there were four people involved in applying the cancels. And the one that had in his (most likely male) hand the only canceller with the flat-topped '3' consistently applied it with more force than his oppos. And probably inked it more often and cleaned it less often.

And was a left-hander.

Clive
Hercule Poiret is favourite TV viewing, let me guess? :lol:

I'll bet hhe was a redhead as well. :mrgreen:

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Glen,
Hercule Poiret is favourite TV viewing, let me guess?

I'll bet he was a redhead as well, and smoked Players.
Never got past Sherlock, and that seems like a hundred years ago. :) And I'm not sure that in this ultra politically correct world you are even allowed to say or write 'Players'. :shock: :shock: If there's a knock on your door later tonight, it'll likely be the thought police.

No, it's plain old-fashioned deductive reasoning. More than happy for you to tell me where the theory falls down. 8)

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 58635
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Tell me where the red head theory falls down. :lol:

However ever if we see enough flat top 3 we'll know more about the left hander. Being a higher IQ than right handers, as is well proven, he was clearly a Manager.

I'd be amazed if there there was more than 2 cds to be honest, and the flat top was used VERY sparingly. Possibly a reserve cds for some reason.

3000 stamps in sheets of 120 is 250 or so sheets - say 60 cancels a sheet takes an hour or two a value. And only 13 vals needed, so 2 or 3 days work for 1 person.

The tearing up was the hard work, and the assembling into packs - not the cancelling!
Image

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Glen,

It must be your birthday around now, then.

But I would have sworn you were Taurus. :P

Clive

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Glen,
3000 stamps in sheets of 120 is 250 or so sheets - say 60 cancels a sheet takes an hour or two a value. And only 13 vals needed, so 2 or 3 days work for 1 person.
3000 sets? Breckon says 5000 (but less than half sold).

Here are some basic sums, and the numbers presume that the same person or people who applied the CTO cancels also applied the 'Specimen' canceller. 5000 collectors' sets were prepared and distributed. That doesn't take into account spoilage, which there must have been, both in cancelling or separating stamps.

The value of each set of roos was four pounds and nine pence, $8.08 in today's money. In 1907, in the 'Sunshine Harvester' case, which pretty-well established Australia's wage-fixing system for the next hundred years, Justice Higgins set the wage for an unskilled worker at two pounds two shillings a week. By 1913 not much had changed, so a set of those roo stamps represented about 1¾ weeks' wages for a labouring man!

So that one person, or two, operating in the Treasury - and only someone who has worked in Treasury appreciates the full and God-awful significance of that - had substantially more than £20,000 in their hands, quite literally, over a day or so. A truly staggering amount of money at the time. The notion that Treasury would permit just one or two people to be entrusted with this task doesn't gel with me - the more people doing the work the less the likelihood of theft.

There were almost certainly more overseers and supervisors than workers, just like Treasury to this day. :)

Clive

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Richard Breckon's terrific article (Gibbons Monthly August 2005) tells us some more useful information.

The original collectors' sets included the engraved 1d KGV.

The collectors' packs were prepared for distribution on 13 December 1913 but in fact only 2460 sets (slightly less than half the total of 5000) had been distributed to GPOs by August 1914.

So maybe the cancelling of the stamps was a doddle, as Glen says, compared to the vastly more time-consuming tasks of separating the stamps and assembling the packs.

And contrary to received wisdom, sales were at first quite brisk: in those first eight months 1604 sets had been sold. Compare this to the less than one a week - Australia-wide - during the mid 1920s.

Clive

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

clive willingham wrote:Richard Breckon's terrific article (Gibbons Monthly August 2005) tells us some more useful information.

The original collectors' sets included the engraved 1d KGV.

The collectors' packs were prepared for distribution on 13 December 1913 but in fact only 2460 sets (slightly less than half the total of 5000) had been distributed to GPOs by August 1914.

So maybe the cancelling of the stamps was a doddle, as Glen says, compared to the vastly more time-consuming tasks of separating the stamps and assembling the packs.

And contrary to received wisdom, sales were at first quite brisk: in those first eight months 1604 sets had been sold. Compare this to the less than one a week - Australia-wide - during the mid 1920s.

Clive
And then they sold about 500 sets over the next 9 years, give or take, which is pretty close to the 1920s average.

BTW, it wasn't Treasury clerks who prepared the sets. It was postal clerks in the GPO. Think of the clerks who distributed stamps from the stamp printer to the post offices, imagine the value of stamps they had 'in their hands' at any one time. :)
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
davpot
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 503
Joined: 14 May 2007 01:28
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by davpot »

Now thats a chuckler Clive and Glen :lol: ! Interestingly enough, this was the weekend of our local club meeting. One of our members brought a Very Nice Davos binder with some Bright and lovely runs of mint/FU KGVs and roos and a whole run of very nice CDSs on various early issues. In pointing out the possible CTOs to him I saw he had the 1945? Newcastle set CTOd! and the 3d Mitchell CTOd. And a range of other nice material. Chris (dimbulb) was again nice enough to loan me his KGVI and Dues ACSC. So should be some interesting reading ahead. As Glen has often said "knowledge is power" (or was that Einstein?! LOL!)
Hoping everyone had a Grreat day.
Dave :mrgreen:
david b. potts

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Dave,
In pointing out the possible CTOs to him I saw he had the 1945? Newcastle set CTOd! and the 3d Mitchell CTOd.
That's interesting. I can't even recall actually seeing CTO copies of the Newcastle and Mitchell sets - there are zillions of them mint, I think they were heavily bought for speculative purposes. But CTO I think are pretty scarce, even though the ACSC catalogues them at virtually peanut prices.

Clive

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Peter wrote -
Dave, it's an interesting question. When the authorities decided to include obsolete issues in the sets, in an effort to bolster sales, I presume that they canceled a supply that they considered sufficient for a period, ot that was available. The question is, did they cancel all available stocks and then include them in sets till exhausted? Or did they cancel new stocks, from held stocks (they certainly wouldn't have made new printings), on an as required basis?

I am inclined to the view that there was really only a single cancel applied to any individual stamp, as a general rule. Once the stocks were exhausted the stamp disappeared from the sets. There are probably exceptions to this, as there is in almost anything to do with beauracracy.

A close study of cancellation dates is certainly needed. I don't know if that research has been done.

If my hypothesis is true, then pretty much all officials (whether perforated OS or overprinted) should have the same date as those I showed earlier in this thread. That date should pretty much co-incide with the decision to include these items (which were on their way out anyway) in Specimen sets.
Some great research waiting to happen, Peter, that's for sure.

The cancels on the CTO perfin OSs confuses seven bells out of me. For example -
ImageImage Image
No argument, I think, that they are all genuine CTO. The 2/- is a third watermark, cancelled in 1937, as is the SMW 1/-. The SMW 6d is cancelled 1939!

Clive

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

Clive, the dates on your OS perfins above would tend to suggest that stocks were replenished as needed, until all stocks ran out or until all obsolete issues were finally withdrawn.

I see that, apart from the 6d SMW, the others all have a 1937 date. Want to bet that it is 10 MY 37, just like the lot of officials I showed (back on page 2)?
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Peter,

The dates are almost certainly the same, although whether ALL stamps of a particular denomination/watermark would be the same in ALL packs, well, I'm not sure about that.

As you would know only too well, we only get a complete date on a CTO about every fifty or more stamps, which is very frustrating.

My interest in the dates on the stamps I posted up is that they were being datestamped 1937 or 1939 so long after they became obsolete. The SMW six pence roo datestamped 1939 is most revealing because there had been three subsequent versions of a sixpence stamp since it had been 'withdrawn from service'. How obsolete did a stamp have to be before remaining stocks were destroyed?

Clive

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15370
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by PeterS »

clive willingham wrote:Peter,

The dates are almost certainly the same, although whether ALL stamps of a particular denomination/watermark would be the same in ALL packs, well, I'm not sure about that.

As you would know only too well, we only get a complete date on a CTO about every fifty or more stamps, which is very frustrating.

My interest in the dates on the stamps I posted up is that they were being datestamped 1937 or 1939 so long after they became obsolete. The SMW six pence roo datestamped 1939 is most revealing because there had been three subsequent versions of a sixpence stamp since it had been 'withdrawn from service'. How obsolete did a stamp have to be before remaining stocks were destroyed?

Clive
Clive, we know that the PO made a decision to include obsolete issues to boost sales and a subsequent (separate) decision to include officials (perforated and overprinted). I suggest the 1937 date represents the likely inclusion date. There may have been a shortage of 6d stamps in 1939 and they just found some in stock to augment CTO stocks.

I suspect very few stamps were actually disposed of at that time. They probably just hung around in stock for quite a long time.

As an aside, I remember reading in the ACSC that the 2 pound Kangaroo, although obsolete, could be obtained on application. A part sheet was purchased in 1949 (or thereabouts) and it was actually Small Multi WMK, long obsolete.
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
Clive
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 2284
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 21:16
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

Re: Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

Post by Clive »

Peter,
I suspect very few stamps were actually disposed of at that time. They probably just hung around in stock for quite a long time.
Yes, that does seem to be the case, although it's a bit of a puzzle (to me at least) why ordinary definitive stamps, especially roos, which didn't have any regnal significance, weren't simply sold until stocks were exhausted.

Including five bob bridges and 6d engraved kookas to stimulate interest is one thing, but 6d brown perf OS roos? :roll: In 1939?

Whatever, it seem that the Post Office went to extraordinary lengths to cater for the stamp collector and potential stamp collector. For which all we CTO enthusiasts should be most grateful. :D

Clive

Post Reply

Return to “Discuss stamps - and *anything* at ALL happening with stamps”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DJCMH, NikE and 12 guests