Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche"

Post by Pampstamp »

Here is another contender for the thread

3rd wmk, is it a Die 2a??
The outer frame break caught my eye, its in the right spot!
unfortunately the cancel covers the inner frame :roll:
It could do with a wash and press!!


Image

Image

Image

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche"

Post by Global Administrator »

More likely than that real shocker you showed here last page. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You must have bought the world's most damaged lot of 6d Roos? :idea:

The outer frame is a small wedge on the genuine.

Seems it is more likely a transit scuff in the same place! Has no Cape Leveque flaw so no chance in my book.

But you are an ebay believer that 6th grade rejects sell well, so a $10,000 RAREETEEE on there, I have no doubt. 8)
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche"

Post by Pampstamp »

NO cigar again !!

But I guess getting closer :lol:

(By the way)
Never bought any of these- they are just passed down !!

Also never sold a stamp on Ebay in my life :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Cheers

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Pampstamp »

6d die11a.jpg
6d die11a1.jpg
6d die11a rear1.jpg

Here is another contender for Die11a?
Its a 3rd watermark :D Opinions?

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Global Administrator »

Cancel is an annoying positon but with that small nick in OUTER thick frame, it looks like it to me at least.
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Pampstamp »

Global Administrator wrote:
29 Jun 2020 12:57
Cancel is an annoying positon but with that small nick in OUTER thick frame, it looks like it to me at least.
Cheers I agree, there is no other nick in the OUTER frame anywhere else, and the break in the inner frame lines up exact and its definitely NOT a Die11b

Happy Days :D

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Global Administrator »

I thought from the colour it MIGHT be Second .. but not so -----


0000049923_HSL_H(norm_w_2pct,equalized,8-bit).jpg
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Pampstamp »

Global Administrator wrote:
29 Jun 2020 13:32
I thought from the colour it MIGHT be Second .. but not so -----


Not so unfortunately. I checked it a few times!! Now that would have been a HUGE bonus! :D

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Pampstamp »

6d wmk os3.jpg
6d wmk os3 a.jpg
6d wmk os rear.jpg
I have another contender :D
Looks like a 3rd watermark OS. Cant tell if its a Die11a or Die 11b because of the postmark :roll:
I have a feeling its a Die11b!!

The funny thing is its got full gum? Not sure how that works!
Any opinions?

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Global Administrator »

mGeqWn2.jpg

Here is this stamp actual size to bring us all back to planet earth.

Impossible to call it a Die 2a - for mine.

Stamps not licked down totally or at all on a parcel in a block etc, or licked lightly and peeled off will have most or all original gum.
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Pampstamp »

Global Administrator wrote:
30 Jun 2020 00:30
Image

Here is this stamp actual size to bring us all back to planet earth.

Impossible to call it a Die 2a - for mine.

Stamps not licked down totally or at all on a parcel in a block etc, or licked lightly and peeled off will have most or all original gum.
Yes it is a difficult one!!

The postmark doesn't help at all. But it could have been worse!! At least its not covering the critical part :lol:
Considering how rare the Die 2a is I will classify it as a Die 2b for now.

I am halfway through the 6ds and will post any more contenders (if any) :D

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Pampstamp »

Well I am on my lunch break but my curiosity wont let this go!! :shock:

Sharper eyes have discreetly told me to look closer at the watermark and this stamp!! 8-)

I could have bet money that it was a 3rd watermark!! The location of the watermark and CDS with
the thick gum and the OS made it difficult to determine. But all is revealed.

This changes everything as there is NO Die11b to muddy the waters. The close up picture shows a definite
break in the inner frame at the right spot. Its unfortunate that CDS strike is where it is but the top part of the
outer frame has a small indent.

Why all the fuss? Well, if it is a 2nd watermark die11a OS it has a CV of $9000!! :D :D

As the stamp has NO faults and is very well centered I feel its worth paying for a cert!!
6d roo .jpg
6d wmk os3 a.jpg

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Global Administrator »

.

Second Wmk for sure ... but no Cape Leveque and sadly do not like your chances getting a cert as Die 2a. :lol:
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Pampstamp »

Global Administrator wrote:
30 Jun 2020 15:11
.

Second Wmk for sure ... but no Cape Leveque and sadly do not like your chances getting a cert as Die 2a. :lol:
Yes you are probably right- but it comes close!!! It doesn't say anything about Cape Leveque in ACSC?

Didn't know about that. And what is that little half blob in that exact area?


6d wmk os3 b.jpg

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by josto »

Hi!

Any thoughts about this example!? It`s a 1st wmk 6d blue kangaroo with the typical frame die IIA inner frame break in exactly the position and has also a small indention in the outer frame!

Unfortunately the watermark is not conclusive as it is shifted to the left (when seen from back) and a little downwards, so you can`t see a left (seen from back) marginal watermark line, even if there would be one and you can also not see a bottem watermark line, even there would be one. or the reverse scan I`ve played with the contrast to show the watermark better!

The Cape Leveuque ink flaw is not visible, but I`ve seen early 1st wmk examples, where it was also not there. Would be nice to get some expert opinions!

Thanks a lot

josto
Attachments
Australia 6d blue 1st wmk substituted cliche candidate back.jpg
Australia 6d blue 1st wmk substituted cliche candidate_cr.jpg
Australia 6d blue 1st wmk substituted cliche candidate.jpg
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Global Administrator »

.
josto, not even the dreamiest eBay dreamer on their dreamiest day would EVER regard that as a REMOTE candidate!

I blame scanners for this global outbreak of optimism. Once upon a time collectors relied on their EYES to ID SG listed flaws. Quaint as that may seem to the modern generation.

To that end, here is your stamp same size, just to bring everyone crashing back to earth from Rarity Dreamer Delirium!



4TBYcB6.jpg
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by josto »

Thanks for your input and your opinion Glen. So you can call me the dreamiest ebay dreamer, as I wouldn't give it a 100% NO like you do and will leave it as a candidte! That's how opinions can differ.

Greetings

Josto

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Trent »

Hi Josto

Happy to offer some on topic, constructive comments.

The watermark looks pretty central to me, especially horizontally (? left to right I mean). How far in millimetres are the marginal watermark lines from the bottom-most and right-most point of the watermark? That information would be out there. You would have the answer in your own collection.

Posting that measurement here would help those in the future.

So, find yourself a couple of first watermark stamps, one showing the bottom line and the other the right line. Compare these to your stamp to find out if the stamp is actually from the bottom right corner and the marginal lines are outside the stamp area. (Obviously a comparison stamp from the bottom right corner would be ideal)

Even though the inner frame break and tiny flaw in the outer frame look promising for the early state, the monetary value of this would be $0 since you can't really see the flaw even if it is genuine article, plus the condition is terrible. Who would pay for a flaw that they can't really see?
I really should be doing something else...

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Global Administrator »

josto wrote:
23 Jul 2020 02:14
I wouldn't give it a 100% NO like you do

Your choice. It is 150% NOT a Die 2A, not just 100% not. Gotta love Dreamers. :)

Pop it on eBay .. some clueless dreamer Bunny there will love it at a BAHHRRGGIN price of a few $100. If you think it is real, you will have a twin somewhere out there in Bunny Land.

You can also claim it is a Broken Leg Roo, Missing Head Kangaroo, inverted watermark or a Retouched E if you wish - no Federal Law against Dreaming - all however as equally impossible, as it being Die 2a!

Glen
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Global Administrator »

.
EUREKA !!!!!!!!

You are a Millionaire Josto.

Thanks to your 50 times blow up you have discovered not only Die 2A but Die 2C and Die 2D and Die 2E .. all are larger inner frame breaks than your initial Die 2A treasure.

And all on the ONE stamp. I'd start this at least at $2,000. Maybe $US2,000. :D :D


THE MIRACLE STAMP !!!!!!!!

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Kainnikanada »

Troy,

You haven't made a revealing observation. I've been discussing these measurements on both the Roo and Geo V as an authoritative method of confirming peripheral plate positions.

Give other members credit - mobbor does repeatedly.

Here's a pair of 1st watermarked Roos and an enlargement with the distance to the left vertical watermark line and the width of the crown. Josto should already be aware of these measurements.


img725 -01 2MP.jpg
--------------------------------------------------------------
012.0d Roo 1st wmk crown to line measurement.jpg
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Trent »

Sorry mate, I hadn't read everything previously posted. My mistake.
I really should be doing something else...

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by josto »

Hi Trent and Rod,

thank you very much for your good informative answers! I`ve tried to make a scan of a measurement of the distance between the the crown of thewatermark and the left side of the stamp. Seems to be about 5mm. Of course I didn`t think of a huge monetary value! Although the perfs are bad, I`ll nevertheless not discard the stamp. T think I`ll just put it aside with an annotation "not identifiable"!

Thanks again for your efforts!

Greetings

josto
Attachments
Australia 6d kangaroo watermark measurement.jpg

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Kainnikanada »

josto,

Keep this in mind for future speculations. The watermark is impressed into the wet paper. Separation of the fibers is the end result which weakens the paper. If the watermark line had been present in the perforations it would have affected separation.

Stamps with numerous missing lateral (left or right) perforations or several adjacent damaged perfs could be indicative of a marginal stamp.

In your example the line should fall in the perfs.
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Micky »

6d roo
6d roo
.
rev.png


Hi, found this one with a small break to frame and a small blob on the west coast, is it anything special?


Cheers

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Micky it is certainly a 2nd watermark, (badly defective sadly) which is scarce in Die 2A.

Looks a vaguely ''possible'' from your less than ideal scan.

If I were you I'd work on adding a clear high rez scan of the relevant area. What you have posted is pretty muddy and murky and low rez.

If it checks out, it will pay for a DOZEN x new Canon Lide scanners! EVERY member messing about with such items MUST buy one.

Sharp and detailed scans are essential for such items, like this detail below.

Glen

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

Looks to be a second and the sub-cliche to me as well.

The frame break is there as is the Cape Leveque flaw but as Glen said, a good scan will confirm it.
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Micky »

I appreciate the positive answers, I haven't got the item as of yet I seen it and instantly bought it for around $8 before anyone else did with a couple other items, the one below for around same value with possible 2nd defective E and defective perf at top :( :?.

And what I see looks to be (I think :roll: ) 2d Roo block of 4 with 1 die I and 3 die II.

I will post again for sure with my own scanner when they arrive, sorry but thanks :D


defective E
defective E
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Global Administrator »

.

Definitely the defective E -- also a high cat stamp. 17(1)e - $2000.

Theses brain-dead clueless amateur sellers, using their trusty $39, 1990s, ''3 in 1 scanners'' cost themselves a fortune.

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by josto »

Here is a contender for a 6d blue 2nd wmk sub cliche. Unfortunately with defective surface at upper right,as the postmark is over the defective area, I guess it might already have been defective when it was applied to the cover!? It has the typical frame break, the small nick in the outer frame, the Cape Leveque flaw and a bottom watermark line. Wtaermark is off centre so, no chance to see a vertical watermark line.

Greetings
Attachments
kangaroo 6d blue sub cliche 2nd wmk.jpg
kangaroo 6d blue sub cliche 2nd wmk_cr.jpg
kangaroo 6d blue sub cliche 2nd wmk back.jpg

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Micky »

Hi, finally arrived yesterday and rescanned. Sadly both have damage, should I get certificates or have they lost their value?
Sub cliche
Sub cliche
sub close.png
p1.png
Perfs cut at top :cry:
6d roo deformed E
6d roo deformed E
p2.png
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Global Administrator »

josto wrote:
10 Sep 2020 05:16

Here is a contender for a 6d blue 2nd wmk sub cliche. Unfortunately with defective surface at upper right,as the postmark is over the defective area, I guess it might already have been defective when it was applied to the cover!?

It has the typical frame break, the small nick in the outer frame, the Cape Leveque flaw and a bottom watermark line. Wtaermark is off centre so, no chance to see a vertical watermark line.

Greetings
Image
Image
Image

About 20 frame breaks down left -- just underinked.

You really need to see a small bite in OUTER frame as well -

Image
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by josto »

.
Hi Glen,

Only because there are several outer frame breaks due to underinking, why shouldn't that stamp nevertheless be a sub cliche!? There is also a small nick at the inner side of the outer frame, there is very clearly the ink blob at the correct Cape Leveque position and the stamp has a bottom watermark line. Quite many coincidences!?

Underinking can appear on every stamp, why not on a substituted cliche position!? You are right, that there are many misidentified examples out there, but with this clear Cape leveque flaw and the bottom watermark line, it still looks like a possible candidate.

Thanks for your help.

Josto

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by danyeung »

I checked my 6d blue roos after reading this thread and found this one - overinking along the left inner frame and thick map coast line but underinking along the left outer frame.

The position above Cape Leveque is where the postmark letter E so I can't tell there is ink blob or not.

The upper right corner is cut like wedge shape.

Can it be a Die IIA substituted cliche ? Thanks



6d blue Roo die 2A substituted cliche ?
6d blue Roo die 2A substituted cliche ?
back of 6d blue Roo
back of 6d blue Roo

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Philip James »

Danyeung,

Based on your own observation regarding the TRC and being third watermark and the apparent shade, that 6d Blue is more likely to be an over-inked Die 2b.

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by danyeung »

Hi Philip,

Thanks for your help and comment.

What TRC stands for ?

The upper right corner doesn't look like the die IIB round corner. Would it be 3rd late stage (worn / notched upper right corner) as member austcollect posted on page 5 ?
austcollect wrote:
01 Apr 2016 23:37
I have been putting together a database of the 6d Substituted Cliché (1R60), the Retouched E (1R60), and the Defective E (1L34), as a census of examples. The census is incomplete, with current data mainly from Stampboards and Australian auction houses. It has some interesting information, particularly with postmark dates for the varieties.

3rd early - refers to 3rd watermark early state of substituted cliché - the early state shows the same characteristics as 1st and 2nd watermark examples - notch or small break in outer frame, and ink blob on coast above Broome.

3rd late - refers to 3rd watermark late state of substituted cliché - the later state is quite different (and looks similar to Die IIB) - large break in outer frame, no ink blob, worn/notched upper right corner. Late state substituted cliché upper right corner looks more like notch out of corner, compared to Die IIB which is rounded.
Hope other members with experienced eye can offer their opinion. Thanks.

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Pampstamp »

danyeung wrote:
14 Sep 2020 17:07
I checked my 6d blue roos after reading this thread and found this one - overinking along the left inner frame and thick map coast line but underinking along the left outer frame.

The position above Cape Leveque is where the postmark letter E so I can't tell there is ink blob or not.

The upper right corner is cut like wedge shape.

Can it be a Die IIA substituted cliche ? Thanks




Image

Image

Hi Danyeung

Its a Die11b in my opinion!!. The area is so over inked NO ONE would be able to confirm. :lol: :lol:

The top right outer corner is NOWHERE near Josto's example.

The break in the ST has been inked over.

Look closely at the top right inner frame line corner and it has a small break. That is a Die11b characteristic
and is used to identify Die11bs. ie the "Harrison" die :D

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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by danyeung »

Hi Pampstamp, thanks and appreciate your help :)

May I clarify my understanding on Die IIb - so it is not necessary a "round" corner and can be a "cut" corner like this stamp. The inner frame break is underneath the first inner frame line, IE, on the right inner frame (not exactly the corner). Am I correct ?
Roo 6d Blue upper right corner
Roo 6d Blue upper right corner

Also added a larger scan of the left frames - maybe just my wishful eyes, the outer frame doesn't look like underinking :)
Roo 6d Blue left frames
Roo 6d Blue left frames

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Pampstamp
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Pampstamp »

danyeung wrote:
17 Sep 2020 13:03
Hi Pampstamp, thanks and appreciate your help :)

May I clarify my understanding on Die IIb - so it is not necessary a "round" corner and can be a "cut" corner like this stamp. The inner frame break is underneath the first inner frame line, IE, on the right inner frame (not exactly the corner). Am I correct ?

Image


Also added a larger scan of the left frames - maybe just my wishful eyes, the outer frame doesn't look like underinking :)

Image
Danyeung, not sure where you are getting your info on the right hand corners!!
Members or anyone else are free to have opinions :lol: :lol:

The ACSC states the Die11b 3d,6d and £1 "usually show a rounded top right corner"
NO mention of cut corners ( though many people try!!) Looking at it in normal size it just looks rounded!

As for the right inner frame break the identification is the "junction" of the inner frame line :D
This is now very obvious in your larger post.

With the cliche break are you looking at the correct area??
The break is usually in line with the top of the roos eye :lol: ( or 2 rows down from the Broome coast )
6d die11a1.jpg
Your example has no inner frame or outer frame nick in the correct cliche spot.

RESULT 100% Die11b :D

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danyeung
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by danyeung »

Hi Pampstamp, thanks again for your help :)

I have the ACSC but I was confused with my inexperienced eyes :oops:

I thought the top right corner is not "rounded" when I compared it with my other Die IIB example which has a more smooth rounded corner.

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Kainnikanada
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by Kainnikanada »

dan posted a scan of the reverse of his 6d roo on the Roo thread. The vertical watermark line on the left side of the stamp proves it's not a substituted cliche.

Here's my response:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4131&p=6809781#p6809781
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Re: Discussion: 6d Blue Die IIA/Die 2A "Substituted Cliche" Roos

Post by PhilipAdams »

Some of the recent contributions to this thread have confused me. So I have written a short set of notes that attempt to explain the different characteristics of Die 2, Die 2A (the single substituted cliché) and Die 2B stamps on third watermark 6d blue printings.

These notes draw heavily on other people’s work.

The notes can be accessed on the 6d Blue Kangaroo WIKI at:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=682377#p682377

Three points are relevant to recent posts.

=====================
First, the 2A substituted cliché occurs on the bottom right of the right pane of plate 1 (i.e., at position 1R60). This has led people (including myself) to assume that the stamp will display a bottom marginal watermark line and a vertical marginal watermark line on the right hand side (looking at the front).

On third watermark (and first watermark) paper, this can be true, but not always.

As pointed out by Kainnikanada (and others), marginal watermark lines were intended to be found just outside border stamps. Marginal watermark lines are visible only when the paper is poorly cut or when the stamps are not centred correctly on the sheet (as is typical on second watermark paper).

See Kainnikanada’s remarks relating to “Surround” at

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=27086

======================
Second, on third watermark paper, on Die 2 stamps the top right corner of the outer frame is perpendicular. This is often not the case on the substituted Die 2A cliché nor on Die 2B stamps.

The term “rounded” is used, but this is inadequate. For both Die 2A and Die 2B the top right corner can be shaved (cut back), round, perpendicular and even bulbous.

======================
Third, on Die 2B stamps the inner-frame nearly always has a visible shortfall at the top. This has been described as a break at the juncture. This is not accurate. The break, if indeed it is a break, occurs on the vertical frame line and not the horizontal frame line.

The shortfall does not occur on Die 2 or Die 2A stamps.

Philip

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