"Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs?

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by David Benson »

re:

" We've paid a pretty hefty price for our mistakes ",

He must have a misunderstanding of what " MISTAKES " mean,

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by The Pom »

gregbear61 wrote:Briefly discussed via email a stamp with BlueOwl last night, and asked about the stampboard comments. Response was:

"Hi, the alerteration claims are correct in some instances, it was however to a relatively small number of stamps which have now been handed in to the dealer association. Unfortunately there does appear to be some pretty wild speculative claims being made now, as you would expect. We've paid a pretty hefty price for our mistakes, but all-in-all we deserve it. Hope that answers it for you. Regards, Jude
- blueowl2000"
So if I were to attempt to buy this stamp (still for sale on his website), I would presumably get an email from Koch saying it was unavailable.........

https://blueowlsstamps.com.au/rDetails1b.asp?cat=RooWmk&CAT2= ... 10&this=it
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by mcgooley »

David Benson wrote:he must have a misunderstanding of what " MISTAKES " mean
"MISTAKE = error, blunder, lapse, misunderstanding, misconception, omission, inaccuracy, oversight, slip-up, botch, failure, flaw, mis-cue, muff, boo-boo."

nope, I think his "error", or "lapse", of judgement in "botching" his attempts - which are "inaccurate" - led to an "oversight" on his part about the knowledge possessed by some potential buyers. His "blunder" is his "failure" to address people's "misconceptions" about his integrity.

I think he's starting to realise he's made a major "boo-boo".
dukeprince wrote:The case should perhaps rest , He knows , We know.

Should depression result in something sad , do we want to feel we have pushed longer than necessary , anyhow that's my two bobs worth so to speak.
Maybe I'm just a nasty piece of work, but my feeling is that the point MUST be hammered home until our friend has pulled his entire operation down. By his own admission, he has been involved in wrong-doing. There is no excuse for this behaviour.
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by Allanswood »

I'm less worried about the whole thing shutting down, than the depressed state many of his customers now find themselves in after buying any of these stamps.

I'll be much happier to hear "I have contacted all customers that have bought these items and sent them full refunds". After all he knows each and every customer and every sale that he has made with pictures included for reference.

That will have gone someway to rectify these "mistakes".

After all, exactly who really (Quote) "paid the pretty hefty price" (end Quote) in the first place?
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by huanga »

Is it not time to finish with this. The point has been 'hammered home.' To continue repeating on the same theme get nowhere. The message eventually loses any meaning.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by sherro »

I disagree. Nothing has been achieved as yet
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by huanga »

What else is there to be achived? The man stands accused, and has admitted his guilt. Any action against him does not lay with the members of this board.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by 1606 »

huanga wrote:What else is there to be achived? The man stands accused, and has admitted his guilt. Any action against him does not lay with the members of this board.

Huanga.
Huanga, Blue Owl Stamps are still selling their reperfed (and worse) garbage. They still pose a threat to stamp buyers.

Hopefully action will indeed be taken against him via police or other agencies, but while this stuff is still available, it is clear that the apologies are meaningless.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by WEIRD AL »

He has been named,shamed and reported
All thats left is to form a posse to tar and feather him and run him out of town.

Looks like John Bozic got off light. :shock:

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by mrboggler »

huanga wrote:What else is there to be achived? The man stands accused, and has admitted his guilt. Any action against him does not lay with the members of this board.

Huanga.
I agree WE should not suppy the Firing Squad,BUT we should still keep making the Bullets,
What Blue Owl has done is damage the Reputation of Many Dealers throught the World.
Put a question mark over many 100,s? of high value stamps.
and put into question the dealer/ customer relationship of many through out the land.

If we stop.then this will not go away.and by his own admission he has admited his guilt.

But saying sorry is NOT enough.he NEEDS to not only say sorry but to recompence ALL who have bought Dodgy Material from him in the last few YEARS/Months????etc.

What if I buy 100 stamps,that are worth $100 each, then Regum.reperf.etc etc, and sell same for $1000.00. each.

get caught but all I say is "Oh Sorry" I made a mistake.
then walk away.whilst raising my middle finger in your direction. would you be Happy with that. :?
I don,t think so. :shock:
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by huanga »

MrBoggler. I can only repeat what I wrote earlier. 'What else is there to be achived?' As WEIRD AL posts, he has been named and shamed. I see no point in making bullets to fire into a dead target.

Huanga.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by mrboggler »

Problem is . he is not dead, but is still operating.
and if we stop saying any more about it,
it WILL just disappear, and 2 months from now, all will be well in Stamp Land again.

Nothing will have been achived,

what about all those who have bought these stamps already,?

how many have you bought?

would you want your cash back.?

What if you have a couple of these "Stamps" but do not know it yet,.then decide to sell it, and take it along to Glen.who checks it out, and declares FAKE.what do you do.?

I would like to get Traralgons take on all this. :?
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by fromdownunder »

Well, huanga your dead target is still selling on eBay and on his own website, and has many hundreds of items on offer, if not into the thousands.

So you have an interesting definition of "dead target"

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by mcgooley »

I mentioned earlier in another thread, our friend isn't the first and, sadly, won't be the last to abuse the faith placed in him as a representative of a respected trading body.

When an 8 y.o. asks you who you trust as a dealer, what are you going to tell him?

By our own admission, we (most of us) are caretakers of philatelic paraphernalia. What are we bequeathing to the next generation? Short-term gain doesn't enter into the equation.
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by wolseley16/60 »

I'm just glad I never invested in high value 'OS' perforated 'Roo's, luckily I have never paid more than $50 for any item or lot of stamps I have been interested in from around the world, so that if I did get 'burnt' I wouldn't have lost more than $50 at most instead of bloody $1000's !!!!!!

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by muruk »

Has this been reported to the authorities?

Not every collector is a member of Stampboards.

Not every Stampboards member visits here regularly.

Not every Stampboard member that does visit reads every thread.

My point being that there are still a lot of vulnerable collectors and investors out there who would not know about this ... so it could be "Sorry to you lot, but I will continue ripping off everyone who doesn't know."
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by gavin-h »

WEIRD AL wrote:
dukeprince wrote:The case should perhaps rest , He knows , We know.

Should depression result in something sad , do we want to feel we have pushed longer than necessary , anyhow thats my two bobs worth so to speak.
I agree
I'm sorry, but this is not correct.

Justice MUST NOT rest, for that it the way that evil triumphs.

If crimes remain, they should be listed, investigated, solved, and have restitution made.

Would you have been satisfied if justice had "rested" after the first concentration camp victim was found? Or after a week of hand-wringing after 9-11, the authorities had said "let's rest now"?

I don't think so.

This is about the future of OUR great hobby - for both honest collectors AND honest dealers.

Let the pursuit of justice continue - by all means necessary: via Stampboards, via APTA, via Ebay, via the Police, via the Tax Office and via ANY other legal means available.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by dukeprince »

gavin-h wrote:
WEIRD AL wrote:
dukeprince wrote:The case should perhaps rest , He knows , We know.

Should depression result in something sad , do we want to feel we have pushed longer than necessary , anyhow thats my two bobs worth so to speak.
I agree
I'm sorry, but this is not correct.

Justice MUST NOT rest, for that it the way that evil triumphs.

If crimes remain, they should be listed, investigated, solved, and have restitution made.

Would you have been satisfied if justice had "rested" after the first concentration camp victim was found? Or after a week of hand-wringing after 9-11, the authorities had said "let's rest now"?

I don't think so.

This is about the future of OUR great hobby - for both honest collectors AND honest dealers.

Let the pursuit of justice continue - by all means necessary: via Stampboards, via APTA, via Ebay, via the Police, via the Tax Office and via ANY other legal means available.
You are comparing human death with small pieces of paper with holes in or at edges.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by gavin-h »

dukeprince wrote:You are comparing human death with small pieces of paper with holes in or at edges.
No - I am talking about a VERY SIMPLE concept - JUSTICE IS JUSTICE. Pure and simple.

OK, another comparison - about pieces of paper WITHOUT holes.

I steal a $20 bill from you every day for a month.

Do you want justice for only the first 5 days, or for the full month?

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by dukeprince »

gavin-h wrote:
dukeprince wrote:You are comparing human death with small pieces of paper with holes in or at edges.
No - I am talking about a VERY SIMPLE concept - JUSTICE IS JUSTICE. Pure and simple.

OK, another comparison - about pieces of paper WITHOUT holes.

I steal a $20 bill from you every day for a month.

Do you want justice for only the first 5 days, or for the full month?

Possibly you have missed my meaning of something sad occuring , perhaps for his children to be made fatherless you may understand, and for bits of paper fiddling, all may not agree , But someone has to point it out, someone once said something about casting the first stone.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by mrboggler »

I can see where both Dukeprince and Huanga are coming from.
We do not want to hound the man to death, :(

BUT nor can we just sit back and say."ah well. that,s that, too sad we will watch out in the future no harm done,"

There has been a great deal of harm done, and he must be seen to be doing something positive to right the wrongs that have been done,just sorry will not hack it, :(
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by huanga »

mrboggler. As with everything he will eventually disappear and apart from the odd mention now and again, he will leave no lasting effect. Memories are very short, a bit like attention spans.

FDU. The fact that he is still selling should come as no suprise, why should he stop? He has admitted guilt, but in a legal sence what has he been charged with? has anyone come forward and laid a charge against him?

mcgooley. I certainly agree with you, he will not be the last, and I would venture to suggest that there might be a few around the World that read this board, and are trying hard to remember if they have been honest with past sales.

muruk. There seems to be a little confusion here. if he has not been reported by now, then this whole thread has been a waste of time!

gavin-h. The words, Justice, evil and concentration camps are rhetoric.

Huanga.

ps. I'm bowing out of this and going back to stamps...genuine ones!

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by gavin-h »

huanga wrote:gavin-h. The words, Justice, evil and concentration camps are rhetoric.
Accepted re "concentration camps" - a poor example on my behalf for which I apologise.

BUT I will NOT accept that Justice is rhetoric.

It is a VERY SIMPLE and natural concept - which is totally applicable here.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by dukeprince »

huanga wrote:mrboggler. As with everything he will eventually disappear and apart from the odd mention now and again, he will leave no lasting effect. Memories are very short, a bit like attention spans.

FDU. The fact that he is still selling should come as no suprise, why should he stop? He has admitted guilt, but in a legal sence what has he been charged with? has anyone come forward and laid a charge against him?

mcgooley. I certainly agree with you, he will not be the last, and I would venture to suggest that there might be a few around the World that read this board, and are trying hard to remember if they have been honest with past sales.

muruk. There seems to be a little confusion here. if he has not been reported by now, then this whole thread has been a waste of time!

gavin-h. The words, Justice, evil and concentration camps are rhetoric.

Huanga.

ps. I'm bowing out of this and going back to stamps...genuine ones!
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by The Pom »

dukeprince wrote:
You are comparing human death with small pieces of paper with holes in or at edges.
Don't forget the bits of paper with straight edges. These are the unknown number of thousands of dollars of which he has defrauded his customers.
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by wam_1981 »

I agree with the fact that dodgy dealings from the likes of Blue Owl and others need to be brought up in the public forum to help alert as many people as possible to their shady activities. Unfortunetly, as people start to lose interest in the subject, topics like this start falling further down the list where it will get lost amongst all of the other various posts.

I was just sitting here thinking a singular point on the boards where everyone can access all of this information would be great. For example, adding another Forum topic on the home page along the lines of "Beware of dealing will these sellers", where people can readily/easily access this sort of subject matter without having to dig through the other topics to find it. Also, this means that the in-depth research and man hours some of the members put into naming these fruads isn't lost over time.

It's only just a suggestion. I know that there is a sticky already covering this topic, but I believe having a ready available topic on the home page the homepage would be better suited to ensure maximum exposure to all who access the boards.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by fromdownunder »

huanga wrote:FDU. The fact that he is still selling should come as no suprise, why should he stop? He has admitted guilt, but in a legal sence what has he been charged with? has anyone come forward and laid a charge against him?
I have just robbed a bank, have admitted guilt, but have not been charged with anything. So, on the basis of your response, I have the perfect right to go out and rob another one.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by David Benson »

If he has permanently lost his APTA membership then he cannot have a stand at shows. This will be the biggest loss of all to him as apart from the sales at the time it means the loss of future customers.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by brissypete »

On the issue of justice do / will APTA make it public knowledge (apart from this thread) that his membership has been revoked and the reasons why. Its a bit useless to remove someone from membership and those not on this forum know nothing about it especially if said dealer is still in business.
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by numisphil »

1. Jude Koch of Blue Owl Stamps has withdrawn the reperforated stamps and fake OS perfins from his website and will pass the stamps over to APTA President Tony Shields. They will never reappear on the market. The perforating equipment has been destroyed and disposed of. Nobody, apart from Jude, has lost money and he has contacted the few clients who bought this material from him, offering a full unconditional refund, as he always has with all his sales.

2. He is extremely remorseful, has totally cooperated with APTA'S investigation and promises never to do it again.

3. He has agreed to forfeit his stand at the APTA Malvern Town Hall Show next week.

4. APTA has reacted strongly, quickly and thoroughly after one of our members and Jude himself brought the matter to light.

5. This internet forum had no part in our decision making. APTA will only act on written complaints against our members, with details and supporting documents, posted to our Administrative Officer at the address listed on our website.

6. If a similar problem occurred with a non-APTA dealer you would have little or no redress. There would certainly be a far less satisfactory outcome. APTA has enforced its Code of Ethics, protected the consumer and helped the dealer concerned to make things right and redeem their ways.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by The Pom »

brissypete wrote:On the issue of justice do / will APTA make it public knowledge (apart from this thread) that his membership has been revoked and the reasons why. Its a bit useless to remove someone from membership and those not on this forum know nothing about it especially if said dealer is still in business.
A good point. Plenty of dealers are not APTA members, and seem to manage to survive.

Some might argue that there is merit in keeping Koch as an APTA member so they can keep an eye on him - once he's banned, he's a free agent. Then again, he could resign his membership, so maybe the law, rather than the Trade Body, should be deciding his fate.......
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by mrboggler »

So all the people who had their Bids JACKED up on E-Bay
have had their money refunded as well. :?
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by The Pom »

numisphil wrote:1.Jude Koch of Blue Owl Stamps has withdrawn the reperforated stamps and fake OS perfins from his website
A number of stamps highlighted in this thread by Glen & others as being clearly reperforated (in their view) are still present.

http://www.blueowlsstamps.com.au/rDetails1b.asp?cat=RooWmk&C ... 19&this=it

http://blueowlsstamps.com.au/rDetails1b.asp?cat=GeneralIssue ... 77&this=it

Thoughts?
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by sherro »

numisphil wrote:2.He is extremely remorseful, has totally cooperated with APTA'S investigation and promises never to do it again.

3. He has agreed to forfeit his stand at the APTA Malvern Town Hall Show next week.

Tony Shields President APTA
This sounds like he was a naughty little boy. He wasn't. He produced fake items and defrauded money from his customers. At least he promises not to do it again though. :roll:

Please note there is no mention of him losing his APTA standing. In fact, point 6 makes it sound as though the APTA is going to handle his rehab.
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by jrg »

What a pity that the perforating equiment has been destroyed.

If it had been handed over to a responsible body (RPSV, PCNZA) to be held for reference, then identifying any of Koch's forged items would be so much simpler.
John

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by doc »

sherro wrote:
Please note there is no mention of him losing his APTA standing. In fact, point 6 makes it sound as though the APTA is going to handle his rehab.
Yes, sadly agree it sounds like APTA has decided not to expel him, and sweep it all under the carpet via the "old mates act". Blue Owl appears to have broken near every one of their much touted code of Ethics, and has severely harmed the standing of all their members.

"Buy With Confidence From An APTA Member" is an absolute joke of a slogan hereafter.

If they do not remove his membership, and publicise this fact of swift decisive action via the stamp media, it says volumes about APTA, and would indicate their Code is totally meaningless in practice.
doc wrote:Looks like Jude Koch's Blue Owl Stamps broke most of the APTA written rules in just the examples above?

Thanks to members Starling and Woodster for raising these items here using real examples of what was going on.

If his duplicate ebay account is buying Roo stamps non OS on ebay, and faking the OS perfin, and also re-perforating it - making $100s of profit in the process, and mentioning neither when sold on ebay, it is a VERY sad day for the collector.

The well established dealers who are careful when describing material will be furious I can bet, as it means the "Buy with confidence from an APTA member" ads means absolutely nothing, whilst members like this are still among them.

http://www.apta.com.au/Home.aspx?Group=7

APTA - Code of Ethics

As a member of the Australasian Philatelic Traders' Association Inc., I hereby pledge to observe the following code of ethics.

* I will promote, develop and maintain a high standard of ethics in all my business dealings.

* I will, by deed and example, endeavour to promote mutual trust and friendship between members and the public.

* I will refrain from dealing in stolen philatelic and counterfeit material, and give buyers of repaired, regummed, reperforated, reprinted or otherwise altered philatelic material a complete written statement showing in detail the nature of the changes and alterations in such material.

* I will avoid misrepresentation and misleading advertising.

* I will conduct myself so as not to bring discredit to the Association or to diminish the prestige of the membership therein.

* I will neither buy nor sell philatelic items of which the ownership is in doubt and will promptly report to the proper law enforcement authorities information on the suspect stolen material.

* I will immediately refund on any item sold by me where the description was either inaccurate or misleading, within a reasonable period of time after the transaction.

* I will support and be subject to the constitution and regulations of the APTA and such amendments, resolutions and policies as may be established

* In the event of any dispute arising between a customer and myself or with any other member of the Association, I agree to abide by any ruling in connection with such dispute as shall be given by the National Committee for the time being of the Association.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by blue-lazer »

numisphil wrote:1. Jude Koch of Blue Owl Stamps has withdrawn the reperforated stamps and fake OS perfins from his website and will pass the stamps over to APTA President Tony Shields. They will never reappear on the market. The perforating equipment has been destroyed and disposed of. Nobody, apart from Jude, has lost money and he has contacted the few clients who bought this material from him, offering a full unconditional refund, as he always has with all his sales.

Tony Shields President APTA
Why then are these expensive fake OS perfins and many other re-perfs still for sale on Blue Owls site?
Are you just taking Judes word that he has removed all the forged material?
Not good enough in my opinion.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by Jonah »

numisphil wrote:1. Jude Koch of Blue Owl Stamps has withdrawn the reperforated stamps and fake OS perfins from his website and will pass the stamps over to APTA President Tony Shields. They will never reappear on the market. The perforating equipment has been destroyed and disposed of. Nobody, apart from Jude, has lost money and he has contacted the few clients who bought this material from him, offering a full unconditional refund, as he always has with all his sales.

2. He is extremely remorseful, has totally cooperated with APTA'S investigation and promises never to do it again.

3. He has agreed to forfeit his stand at the APTA Malvern Town Hall Show next week.

4. APTA has reacted strongly, quickly and thoroughly after one of our members and Jude himself brought the matter to light.

5. This internet forum had no part in our decision making. APTA will only act on written complaints against our members, with details and supporting documents, posted to our Administrative Officer at the address listed on our website.

6. If a similar problem occurred with a non-APTA dealer you would have little or no redress. There would certainly be a far less satisfactory outcome. APTA has enforced its Code of Ethics, protected the consumer and helped the dealer concerned to make things right and redeem their ways.

Tony Shields President APTA
Thanks for this reply Tony I now know where I stand with regards to the much vaunted APTA and their code of ethics.

I now pledge to never have anything to do with anyone of their dealers, APTA itself or their shows, you have shown nothing but contempt to the stamp community and your code of ethics is a joke.

Old boys network indeed! Consumed by self interest more like and Im sure other members here will feel the same.
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by woodster »

In the professional world I live in, an organisation doing the equivalent acts that Blue Owl Stamps has engaged in would:

1. Have their licence suspended either indefinately or for a long period of time.

or

2. Enter in into an enforceable undertaking with ASIC and their business activities would be heavily monitored to ensure strict compliance.

We recently saw a situation here in SA where a large business with many hundreds of mum and dad clients (run by a husband and wife team) "switched" investments for clients without full and proper disclosure of backdoor commissions etc...

There was no "Mates Act" treatment and ASIC threw the full book of the law at them. This business is in serious trouble of survival.

I would hope at the very least that point 2 above will apply to Blue Owl.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by Allanswood »

"5. This internet forum had no part in our decision making."

So glad we could be of assistance.
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by fromdownunder »

Allanswood wrote:So glad we could be of assistance.
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by upolo »

I am very annoyed at these vexatious complaints sullying the reputation of the trade. The fault undoubtedly lying with the lax and imprecise nature of the code of ethics. In order to protect the integrity of the trade, I anticipate a breakaway trade association, NAPTA (New Australasian Philatelic Traders' Association), with a code of ethics based upon that of APTA but fortified with explanatory text. Several committee members of APTA along with at least one non-committee member might be expected to form this renegade group.

The code:

As a member of the New Australasian Philatelic Traders' Association (NAPTA), I hereby pledge to observe the following code of ethics.

* I will promote, develop and maintain a high standard of ethics in all my business dealings UNLESS I BELIEVE THAT I WILL NOT BE CAUGHT OUT, IN WHICH CASE ANYTHING MAY GO.

* I will, by deed and example, endeavour to promote mutual trust and friendship between members and the public BECAUSE WHEN I OBTAIN THEIR CONFIDENCE I AM BEST ABLE TO FLEECE UNWITTING BUYERS.

* I will refrain from dealing in stolen philatelic and counterfeit material, and give buyers of repaired, regummed, reperforated, reprinted or otherwise altered philatelic material a complete written statement showing in detail the nature of the changes and alterations in such material EXCEPT WHEN I PERPETRATE THESE CORRUPTIONS MYSELF.

* I will neither buy nor sell philatelic items of which the ownership is in doubt and will promptly report to the proper law enforcement authorities information on the suspect stolen material, HOWEVER IF I MANUFACTURE FAKES MYSELF I WILL KNOW THAT THE ASSOCIATION WILL COLLUDE WITH ME TO ENSURE THAT EVIDENCE OF THIS IS DESTROYED IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE LIKELIHOOD OF ANY CRIMINAL RAMIFICATIONS.

* In the event of any dispute arising between a customer and myself or with any other member of the Association, I agree to abide by any ruling in connection with such dispute as shall be given by the National Committee for the time being of the Association. COMPLAINTS FROM CUSTOMERS MUST BE HANDWRITTEN IN CAROLINGIAN SCRIPT USING A CALLIGRAPHY PEN AND HAND-DEPOSITED IN OUR COMPLAINTS BOX IN OUR SECRET LOCATION FOR THEM TO BE INVESTIGATED.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by blue-lazer »

Great post Upolo.

The actions outlined by Tony Shields are a joke.

Why have an APTA Code of Ethics if the penalty for multiple breaches is a slap on the wrist?

Why are there still many fake OS perfins still available for sale on Blue Owls website?

I fear my entire OS collection will loose considerable value after this episode, the potential for re-sale will fall dramatically.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by john6625 »

numisphil wrote:1. Jude Koch of Blue Owl Stamps has withdrawn the reperforated stamps and fake OS perfins from his website and will pass the stamps over to APTA President Tony Shields. They will never reappear on the market. The perforating equipment has been destroyed and disposed of.

Surely the stamps and perforating equipment is evidence if there is any criminal charges ever laid?

I would hope that APTA had nothing to do with the disposal of the above equipment, and that any stamps that are handed over are kept, at least for future reference.

This whole affair is disgraceful.
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by fromdownunder »

blue-lazer wrote:I fear my entire OS collection will loose considerable value after this episode, the potential for re-sale will fall dramatically.
I made a concious decision a couple of years ago to not purchase any more OS Geo V, even though it would complete my pre-decimal used collection (sans a couple of high value Roos. Blue Owl has single handedly justified my decision.

Thus the six gaps I have (all are $100+ stamps) will always be there, but I can live with that. But it's not just him that has lost out. A potential (up to $1,200) that would have been spent on these six stamps with an honest dealer, quite possibly an APTA dealer will never be spent.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by CHzug1291 »

May be worthwhile to google Henk van Leeuwen and the Australian Museum in Sydney ... somehow I can see some equivalents from bringing an institution into mistrust ..... uhh.. Henk got "for being a naughty boy" 10 years jail!

The Museum got audited by ASIC and you should see the audit report!

http://www.audit.nsw.gov.au/publications/reports/performance/2010/muse

Interresting reading!

Yes Jude Koch should be made to face a judge!

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by stampcrazy »

APTA wrote:
Jude himself brought the matter to light.

5. This internet forum had no part in our decision making.

Tony Shields President APTA
So, Jude woke up one morning, put on his Halo, and allegedly decided to confess to you his blatant forgery and faking and agressive shill bidding - all of his own volition - and collectors on this board exposing it with evidence to back it all, had nothing to do with it???

Yep, and the Moon is also made of Green Cheese APTA. :shock:

One guesses the average APTA member would be appalled to read of this limp wristed decision one imagines, and most would not agree with it. I bet the Committee have not asked for their thoughts at any time.

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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by The Pom »

john6625 wrote:
numisphil wrote:1. Jude Koch of Blue Owl Stamps has withdrawn the reperforated stamps and fake OS perfins from his website and will pass the stamps over to APTA President Tony Shields. They will never reappear on the market. The perforating equipment has been destroyed and disposed of.
Surely the stamps and perforating equipment is evidence if there is any criminal charges ever laid?
Correct.
According to VIC Law for the charge of Destruction of evidence,
Crimes Act 1958 - SECT 254

Destruction of evidence

254. Destruction of evidence

(1) A person who-

(a) knows that a document or other thing of any kind is, or is reasonably likely to be, required in evidence in a legal proceeding; and

(b) either-

(i) destroys or conceals it or renders it illegible, undecipherable or incapable of identification; or

(ii) expressly, tacitly or impliedly authorises or permits another person to destroy or conceal it or render it illegible, undecipherable or incapable of identification and that other person does so; and

(c) acts as described in paragraph (b) with the intention of preventing it from being used in evidence in a legal proceeding-

is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to level 6 imprisonment (5 years maximum) or a level 6 fine or both. Notes 1. Document is defined in section 38 of the Interpretation of Legislation Act 1984. 2. The maximum fine that may be imposed on a body corporate found guilty of an offence against this section is 3000 penalty units: see Sentencing Act 1991 s. 113D.

(2) This section applies with respect to a legal proceeding, whether the proceeding is one that is in progress or is to be, or may be, commenced in the future.
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by mcgooley »

I'm starting to get the feeling that we're not still all aiming at the same target :?

My impression, from the very beginning of this thread, is that we were concentrating on ONE person's deceit - for which he, after already admitting his guilt, should be made to hand back his brownie points, close his business, and get a real job, like breaking rocks. After the Fraud Squad deal with him.

APTA, on the other hand, appears to have made themselves a sitting target by effectively endorsing this person's conduct. Fine and good - if that's the way they (the entire committee) wish to go. Tony Shield's comments could be interpreted as collusion to Fraud.

That is an entirely different kettle of fish - which already stinks to high heaven.

All of which I just said is far better covered by what The Pom just wrote.
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Re: "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs

Post by mrboggler »

The longer this debacle goes on, the more angry I become, and I am really one person you don't want to see ANGRY.

It does take a LOT to get me going,but the way this has been handled is pushing me along very nicely.....

The Old Boys Club seems to look after its own very well.

" He Promises not to do it again," what a lot of old Flannel that is, so if he does it again, will he be made to sit on the Naughty Chair for 10 minutes,

I know a Certain Prime Minister who said there will be NO CARBON TAX, 6 months later what do we have,,A CARBON TAX, this is a Prime Minister, so WHO BELIVES BLUE OWL :?

Case in question,Ronnie Barker (the larger one of the 2 Ronnies,) got done for not paying a fair amount for a Post Card Collection he bought many years back.

The police were called and he had to go to court.

If I decide to Chuck some paint on a Piece of Chip board and sell it as another "Blue Poles" painted by the Master. I Will get done,

If I convert a bundle of old Covers with some old Postmarkers that I found at the Tip.
and sell them at $100 each, I WILL get done,

If I tear out the Stamps from the 1972 Mini Sheet and flog the Roos and the 5/- bridge in the car park at the back of the Pub, I WILL get done, (If Caught)

And why will I get DONE, quite simply I have commited a CRIME. I have obtained money by False Pretences.

The APTA really NEEDS to clean this up Quickly. And not brush it under the carpet, and from what I am reading here NOT appear to be covering up the whole sorry affair. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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