Exposing the crazy wallpaper stamps or - 'illegal' stamps of today -

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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

I would beware of quoting or using a site like the 'stamp-scandal' one quoted earlier in this thread. This was just the propaganda mouthpiece of an alleged producer of colourful and valueless wallpaper (for example Senegal Greenpeace stamps and certain unauthorised Tanzania issues to name but a few!). His name, no doubt familiar to some, is Mr. Marino-Montero. Anyone who crossed him starred in his short lived web site (it is no longer active) and he sailed very close to the wind with his slanderous and libelous comments. Sebastien Delcampe and some of the site moderators were vilified here. As it was registered in Argentina - very difficult to do anything about him.

Needless to say his nefarious accounts on Delcampe were closed and he proceeded to bluster and threaten everyone he could with dire consequences and legal action. Recently he has been very quiet but he will no doubt emerge again to peddle his garbage - unless he is already doing so elsewhere?
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Sisophon »

ausfoo wrote:I am not denying there are no philatelic mails, but there seems to be too little and a majority of them SASE covers originating from developed countries (which I assume are stamps from foreign dealers). As I can see, all your covers are having the same addressee.

How many should there be so to satisfy you? There are way more, I only put four in here because I am lazy to PS them and upload to photo bucket. :lol:

Ausfoo, different countries have different mail volume, you cannot expect Burundi mail to be as common as USA mail. We have to consider the proportion.

Things come in proportion: when mail volume is not huge, usage cannot be huge. USA has huge mail volume so you can have 100 letters with 20 bearing WWF stamps; Burundi has low mail volume so they have only 10 letters and in proportion only 2 bearing WWF stamps.

The existence of only 2 scarce covers absolutely makes sense, it is silly to take USA as your standard and say, "hey, you Burundi has only two, too little are there to justify usage!!"

And probably you make too much assumption. Let me explain.

Although the globe is round, mail does not distributed evenly. Burundi is Francophone, mail to France is definitely way more than any destination: there is business communication, and there is private communication of NGO and charity organization staffs.

You are reminded that academics, businessmen, NGO and charity organization staffs like to write. They are from the developed countries, so the vast majority of mail goes to developed countries.

These people may not collect stamps, but they often love to make pretty covers, it is one of the few entertainment they can have in those miserable corners of the Earth. Not everything you see is strictly philatelic.

Locals in urban area make phonecalls, if they write to friends and relatives overseas, the destination would be France. For mail to neighbouring countries, I don't think many of these covers would make their way to the philatelic market of developed countries and be seen by us.

I know all these because I specialized in one of the "wallpaper" countries, I see things which "decent countries" collectors do not see.

It is strange that you assume the pretty pictorials are not available in relevant countries. In other threads, fellow collectors have proved that these pictorials are actually sold by local authorities.

ausfoo wrote:So, in the end, what is your personal feeling about all these wallpaper bombing, Sisophon? All of the stamps are valid, but there's just too much! Sheets and sheets of them that the catalogue just gives them a bunch of numbers eg. Sc. 2289-3012 (a sheet representing a number)!
I agree with you that there are too many of them, but facts are facts, as long as they are legal, they are legitimate stamps, catalogues should list them.

Now almost all countries issue stamps in excess, almost all countries break UPU's regulations. Black pots vs black kettles, I don't see the point of making a big fuss over agency stamps. :wink:
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by ausfoo »

Not here to pitch a fight, but the amount of stamps issued vs. amount of mail volume is completely not proportional.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Sisophon »

ausfoo wrote:Not here to pitch a fight, but the amount of stamps issued vs. amount of mail volume is completely not proportional.

I see what you mean. Look, Burundi beats USA by having 200 issues a year while USA has 20, but when you talk about the print run, USA probably wins, in hundred millions each! Are they used? Sorry, I see labels more than stamps on American mail.

The agencies are going to say: to be fair, USA should be kicked out of the catalogue as well.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Somerset »

Read every post on this thread (amazing what interests me when I should be doing the annual accounts) and must say I've not seen a thread which generated so much heat and so little light - reminded me of some of the Irish politics sites.

My view is - it's your collection. If you want to stop at 1900, stop at 1900. Want to collect St Kilda (tempting as the whole population shared my religious views) collect it.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

I do travel to Burundi and Rwanda usually two or three times a year and can state postage stamps are used on the mails. The 'Agency' period when masses of wall paper were issued were sold, albeit in small quantities, in the main post office in Bujumbura. Part of the contract was to supply the needs free of charge for postage stamps to the post office. In return the agency had carte blanche to produce more or less what they wanted to flood the market. All these issues exist postally used and if you can find them on cover should be worth considerably more in that state. If anyone wants stamped covers sent to their address by Registered mail from either Rwanda or Burundi I can let you have the details of a supplier (I believe the cost is $10 per cover which can be paid by Paypal or Skrill).

Most commercial mail; from Burundi goes to Belgium (not France) as Belgium was the colonial power from 1918 to Independence. English is not widely spoken. With Rwanda it is different as English is being actively promoted as the international language in preference to French and Rwanda is actively encouraging tourism - the Mountain Gorillas are one of the main attractions so there is more commercial mail from here to a wider range of countries.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by ausfoo »

Japan Post bombs a lot of wallpaper nowadays, but no one really complains because they price them at domestic rate. And the letters sent are in proportion to the stamp issues (I hope).

US prints hundreds of millions of Forever stamps, and a big proportion of them goes to postage. I can assure that.

Guyana bombs a lot too, and the stamps are priced at a silly $225/ea, when domestic mail costs $20. I don't understand why the Guyana PO is not protesting to IGPC to print $20 stamps, but now they are resorting to making provisional overprints of all sorts on old issues now! Talk about irony..

How could Burundi stamps be beneficial to the stamp collecting hobby in general?

Don't get me wrong, wallpaper is pretty on envelopes, I love receiving them on envelopes.

Well, like Somerset said, collect what we like. But the truth is that what these agencies are doing is depressing and unethical (my personal view).

If one were to choose a modern country's new issues to collect, the first that goes off the list will probably Burundi, Guinea, Equatorial Guinea, St. Vincent...

These countries just can't think long term.. Less stamp issues, more attractive to new issue buyers, more standing order subscribers, the higher the chance of a piece of new stamp being used on mail...
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

In Burundi they couldn't care one jot about the collector market. According to the postmaster they get an income they would otherwise not get from the sale of the 'wallpaper' and get the stamps their post offices use free of charge. I doubt there is a single collector in Burundi - at least I have never met one in my trips there. The only people I have seen buying stamps at the main post office for 'collector' purposes are the odd tourists who use them on the postcards they send home - and Burundi does not get too many of them.

Interestingly the same applies to commemorative coinage. A company has the right to produce commemorative coinage (mostly precious metal) in the name of Burundi and for this they pay an annual fee to the central bank and supply just ONE coin to the central bank for reference purposes. I doubt very much if these coins are kept as I have not been able to see them in the central bank at all and most I spoke to had no idea such items existed or were produced. Yet technically (according to the contract) they are legal tender in Burundi. How do I know this? A couple of years back I was involved in the tendering process on behalf of a Rwandan businessman - which never progressed further than obtaining the tender documents!
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Sisophon »

ausfoo wrote:US prints hundreds of millions of Forever stamps, and a big proportion of them goes to postage. I can assure that.
Probably you would like to explain why I never get a cover from USA franked with stamps but only labels unless I specially ask the senders to use stamps, and when they do, the commemoratives are not issued in the last year, but ranging from 1940s to 1990s, some Andrew Sisters queue up waiting to be on 2013 mail ! :lol:
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Princestamps »

I agree, this topic is old. Ausfoo, you may be right but you are just going to make Sisophon more and more upset, so lets just leave him to enjoy his flower stamps from Upper Ubangaland (Great quote Sheriff) and move on.

There's more to get worried about a few third world countries and banana republics producing dubious stamps. Yes they may be illegal and offensive, but no one is making us buy them. No one is actually pointing a gun to my head and forcing me to buy 100 Elvis Movie sheets from Guyana any more.

This material exists as there is market for them, as long as you have Sisophons around, you will people producing wall paper stamps to go into their investment portfolio grade collections :lol: .

But I am not above critique myself, I buy new issues of Pitcairn with all manner of riduclous Bounty based topics with fervour, and God help you if I miss a Tristan da Cunha item in an auction. I also produce my own Maverick country (Taniquah) thru Panterra and collect the labels of Lundy. Sometimes I enjoy this stuff more than hunting down the 10 Malta stamps I don't have.

I have learnt not all stamp collecting is serious, its got to be fun too, and if I was a huge Elvis fan, I would be buying every piece of Dubious wallpaper I set my eyes on. Seriously if they started producing mountains of wallpaper stamps based around Prince, there would be a new and devoted convert to wallpaper in no time. 8)
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by fromdownunder »

Princestamps wrote:if they started producing mountains of wallpaper stamps based around Prince, there would be a new and devoted convert to wallpaper in no time. 8)
Prince? Not a chance with me, but if it was ABBA...! Now there is an underused wallpaper product. I don't even know if there are any ABBA stamps, wallpaper or real ones.

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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by ausfoo »

I was just hoping to create more awareness, and hopefully that by some miracle Stampboards had the power to stop these agents from continuing their business.

I'd gladly pay for any locally produced issues from Africa, if these countries had the right mindset. Well, all they can think now is just - money. Same as the Trucial States' Sheiks of the 1970s.

Now the Trucials have gas, so they do not need philatelic agents' money anymore, and have been chucking out beautiful issues.

Africa has a lot of resources, but it always doesn't work out well for them... (Just a side note)
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

It is not 'money' they think about.

There just is no collector 'mind set' regarding stamp or indeed any other form of collecting. The whole concept of collecting is totally alien in many of these countries. This is why the 'wallpaper' agents do so well in these places because they are offering something for nothing in the eyes of the local administrations. When I go on my trips to these parts of the world I am viewed as someone on the far side of mentally unstable and would get nowhere without my local friends who explain to the uncomprehending officials that I am a typical eccentric Englishman.

The same applied when I lived in the Middle East - I did actually get locked up for sending covers franked with Frama labels to myself. The authorities thought I was a spy sending secret messages! I can laugh about it now but at the time I was basically s******g myself! Fortunately I had western educated local friends who again explained I was basically a loopy Englishman.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Sisophon »

Princestamps wrote:I agree, this topic is old. Ausfoo, you may be right but you are just going to make Sisophon more and more upset, so lets just leave him to enjoy his flower stamps from Upper Ubangaland (Great quote Sheriff) and move on.

Funny. Why should I be upset ? I am not, because the catalogues are on my side.

The vomit of agency stamps is disturbing, but the bare fact and borderline is that these stamps are legitimate and postally used, and so they are listed.

It is you who are upset, we see how much you have complained with subjective judgement. You have the full right to ignore facts and enjoy your grumpy life.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by kerailija »

fromdownunder wrote: Prince? Not a chance with me, but if it was ABBA...! Now there is an underused wallpaper product. I don't even know if there are any ABBA stamps, wallpaper or real ones.

Norm
Actually Sweden has issued (at least) two stamps for ABBA. The first one is from early 1980s, the latter is part of the Swedish Millenium series issued in late 1990s.

And as to be expected, there are some bogus labels (Kyrgystan etc) as well.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Princestamps »

Sisophon wrote:
Princestamps wrote:I agree, this topic is old. Ausfoo, you may be right but you are just going to make Sisophon more and more upset, so lets just leave him to enjoy his flower stamps from Upper Ubangaland (Great quote Sheriff) and move on.

Funny. Why should I be upset ? I am not, because the catalogues are on my side.

The vomit of agency stamps is disturbing, but the bare fact and borderline is that these stamps are legitimate and postally used, and so they are listed.

It is you who are upset, we see how much you have complained with subjective judgement. You have the full right to ignore facts and enjoy your grumpy life.

Is there any satisfying you. I was trying to defend your interests. But forget it, you are not worthy of my compassion. You are just looking for a fight, do you actually do any posts that don't pick fights with people.

Just because the catalogues list it, does not mean they like it and only do it out of suffrance, the fact these listings are more texts than visual images is a sign its under duress.

Producers of the catalogues must get frustrated too, as the listings for wall paper countries get longer and therefore more volumes have to be produced (SG have expanded from 4 to 6 Volumes in their stamps of the world since 2002, In 1980 you could still put the world in one volume).

This means added expense and added waste of resources to make them and as a result, less people buy full sets and specialised volumes of classics (Such as BC 1840 - 1970) sell more as about 90% of serious philatelists, not kiddies and accumulators of wallpaper like you actually buy the garbage produced by these dubious authorities.

Even severely truncating the space devoted to wallpaper sets does not help. Yes I understand that new issues of all countries contribute to this expanding of catalogue size, but a place like Malta that only issues 20 or so new stamps most years (2012 was a GLITTERING exeption) and other conservative countries, would struggle to fill another column on a page each year.

Compare that to wallpaper issues from Sierra Leone and Burundi and the like, say 50 to 100 wallpaper issues a year is at least another 10 pages devoted to stuff very few people bother to collect, and even if they list it as Appendix material, it still is described and takes up space.

Perhaps they should keep catalogues for mainstream legit material, and produce new catalogues for wallpaper called "Commercial and Thematical issues of Marginal Authorities issued between 1985 and 2013". That would satisfy people like you and also us, the real philatelists.

So there I have re opened your puerile argument and closed it. No doubt I shall receive another bombast from you and I will either ignore or laugh at it, because frankly thats your best trait to me, your sheer amusement factor. I offered you an olive branch and you spurned it, so there.

If you don't believe me, send some letters to Stanley Gibbons, Scott, Yvert, Michel and whoever and ask them how they feel about listing 50 sheets of Elvis stamps from Gambia, the latest flower sheets of Upper Ubangaland or 600 or so badly drawn Stamperija wall paper sheets from various African republiques. I am sure you will not get "Oh we love it".

And I am sure if I asked 100 Philatelists how they would spend a $1000 Stamp voucher on either classic pre 1970 issues or modern wallpaper, nearly all would choose the classics.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by ausfoo »

Princestamps wrote: Perhaps they should keep catalogues for mainstream legit material, and produce new catalogues for wallpaper called "Commercial and Thematical issues of Marginal Authorities issued between 1985 and 2013". That would satisfy people like you and also us, the real philatelists.
Sounds like a really good idea!! Then we can see how much those wallpaper catalogues expand over the years!

No one is denying that these stamps are not valid for postage, but the problem is these stamps are EXCESSIVE and EXPLOITATIVE.

And yes, honestly, I love those rare letters that they send out franked with agency stamps, because they are so difficult to obtain, in general. And their usage will one day be so rare, that every single stamp listed in the catalogue that is found *postally used* might be unique! I can envision postal history from these countries having a boom, if they tone down their wallpaper bombardment.

(If there were tons of them going to their mother countries, why not offer us some kiloware! :P ) I'd buy them!
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

(If there were tons of them going to their mother countries, why not offer us some kiloware! :P ) I'd buy them!
You are opening up a can of worms here as these issues are available as kiloware - but so called 'manufactured' kiloware at some very exhorbitant prices.

Personally I think people are getting too hot under the collar about all this. Stamps have been produced for 'packet making' as long as I have been around and probably long before then as well looking as some of the earlier output from some of the so-called South American banana republics. If any of us are around in 50 years or so some of these vilified wall-paper issues may actually be blue chip investment material.

Some of the Trucial State (Dune) wallpaper issues now fetch very high prices on cover and rumour has it the forgers are now moving into this area.

Anyway everyone to their own thing. Personally I avoid these issues - though I do sell them when I pick them up in auction lots and so long as they are listed in a recognised catalogue. I am often surprised at the high prices some of these items realise and I believe there is the odd thread floating about on Stampboards about this.

Attacking people who collect this stuff is counter productive just as attacking some purist anorak who collects fly speck errors on Victorian penny reds or whatever! They all have their place as stamp collecting is a cosmopolitan and wide embracing term.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Princestamps »

I have started a poll about what stamps you would buy if you had $1000 to spend on stamps or philatelic materials. From the categories listed so far, in 60 votes, no one has selected Thematical or Wall paper stamps. Just want to prove my point to the detractors.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

Not to detract from your poll - but you are already preaching to the converted.

I wonder how your poll would fare should it be run by a red top tabloid newspaper.

This much derided 'wallpaper' does get people in on the bottom rung of stamp collecting where a child will collect items that are colourful and exciting to its eyes. What the hope is - is that they make the natural progression into more specialised collecting as they research further into the hobby as they get older. You will also find this 'wallpaper' attracts adults into collecting as well. I know of women that started out collecting 'Elvis' stuff on paper that have since moved on to collecting one country stamps!

My point being there is no mileage out of deriding someone who collects something you may dislike. In our collecting habits there is space enough for everyone whatever we collect.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Princestamps »

toschka wrote:Not to detract from your poll - but you are already preaching to the converted.

I wonder how your poll would fare should it be run by a red top tabloid newspaper.

This much derided 'wallpaper' does get people in on the bottom rung of stamp collecting where a child will collect items that are colourful and exciting to its eyes. What the hope is - is that they make the natural progression into more specialised collecting as they research further into the hobby as they get older. You will also find this 'wallpaper' attracts adults into collecting as well. I know of women that started out collecting 'Elvis' stuff on paper that have since moved on to collecting one country stamps!

My point being there is no mileage out of deriding someone who collects something you may dislike. In our collecting habits there is space enough for everyone whatever we collect.

Fair enough, but the two collectors of wallpaper on this thread Safibeg and Sisophon, can not seem to stop deriding Stewie1980, Ausfoo and me. Rather than get into pitched rhetoric I have decided a poll will prove that Wallpaper stamps are on the extreme margins of philately rather their idea its the future of stamp collecting and totally legit as the catalogues (Faced with no choice) will reluctantly include them.

I accommodate them and their material, yes, but what I can't accommodate is their putting down and slagging off of people who don't like wallpaper and think it should be restricted and even outlawed.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by ausfoo »

Scott is finally talking to collectors about this wallpaper bombing issue. Check out Linns Stamp News July 2013 page 54 if any of you subscribe to it!

I'll post a scan/photo if I find the time :)
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Princestamps »

ausfoo wrote:Scott is finally talking to collectors about this wallpaper bombing issue. Check out Linns Stamp News July 2013 page 54 if any of you subscribe to it!

I'll post a scan/photo if I find the time :)

Could you? I have no access to it here in New Zealand at all, everything is dominated by the British SG group.

I have started a poll about wallpaper stamps too, go and have a look if you like.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

Wallpaper stamps are on the extreme margins of philately rather their idea its the future of stamp collecting and totally legit as the catalogues (Faced with no choice) will reluctantly include them.
This has always been the case. When I was a boy entities like San Marino produced stamps destined for the packet trade. Monaco was another as well as all the smaller French colonies. There were very many others as well.

Rather than deriding the misguided issue policy of countries who really couldn't care less about catalogue listing policies more effort should be put into stopping the proliferation of fake issues in the names of countries that never issued them. Many of the stamps discussed here are pure fakes - the Lady Gaga issues, Rwandan pornographic stamps and so on are the ones that really do stamp collecting a great disservice.

Catalogue editors or producers only need to stop listing this stuff if that is what they and the purists want. Simply insert a message stating issues between x and z will no longer be listed as in the opinion of the editor they serve no valid reason for inclusion due to overproduction or whatever.

If there is a demand for a catalogue for these issues someone will produce one. The Michel Catalogue for the Trucial State issues is a collectors item in its own right if auction realisations for this volume are anything to go by. So whether we like it or not people do collect this stuff even if me and you actively dislike it.

There are already catalogues for many of the so-called cinderella issues for entities such as Staffa (an island with no population), the Sahara Republic - that does not exist except as a refugee camp in Algeria with no post offices - the list is endless. There are also catalogues for the 'legitimate' wallpaper as well. These would not be produced if there was no market for them.

It is the market that will dictate if these issues will be listed or not - not the grumblings of old fogey's like me and others. If Gibbons, Scott, Michel et al decide they would not lose anything financially by excluding these issues - they will exclude them. But pressure and advertising revenues from those that market these items may decide otherwise.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Stewie1980 »

toschka wrote:Rather than deriding the misguided issue policy of countries who really couldn't care less about catalogue listing policies more effort should be put into stopping the proliferation of fake issues in the names of countries that never issued them. Many of the stamps discussed here are pure fakes - the Lady Gaga issues, Rwandan pornographic stamps and so on are the ones that really do stamp collecting a great disservice.
Actually the Lady Gaga stamps from Guiné-Bissau (on page 1) were an official issue by their agent Stamperija.

I see you have an Aruban stamp as our avater. Ever questioned were it came from?

Yes, also from an agent. He (Van Reijen) designes and prints the stamps with mostly high values above local rate. Then he sends a few 100 of them to Aruba and sells the rest of the printing run to dealers. Same practice as Stamperija, Impressor, IGPC, etc.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

My avatar was given by default and I left it there as I do collect butterfly stamps as a theme. Whether it is an agency stamp or not is immaterial to me.

The Lithuanian agency Stamperija quoted are guilty of producing much of the fake crap that abounds. It would be interesting to see if they did actually have permission to produce that Lady Gaga issue or not and whether any token supplies ever made it to Guinea Bissau. So far I have not made it to that part of Africa but, hopefully, I will get there some day to see what is actually happening on the ground so to speak.

With Rwanda and Burundi I can speak with more authority (as well as Uganda and Tanzania) as I have spent a lot of time in all these countries. All of them have had large numbers of totally unauthorised issues produced in their names - Guess by who? This is why I say it is more important to stamp on the totally fake crap then worry too much about the proliferation of authorised crap. If the wholesale trade stopped buying both the problem would disappear. When you have members of the major Trade Associations (PTS etc.) - supposedly Stamp Dealers adhering to codes of ethics peddling this crap in their lists, promoting them as investments etc. it is a losing battle.

Whatever anyone says - people do buy these things and there are huge profits being made - to the benefit of charlatans and crooks who know they can get away with it as there is no way of killing the trade. Notice how it is always poor third world countries that get hit or nations in turmoil because if these crooks tried it with US, GB or, indeed, any first world country they would be in prison ultra quick.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Stewie1980 »

Interpol should investigate Stamperija. From their client countries like Guiné-Bissau there are (almost) no illegals. From the countries they don't have a contract with, like Rwanda, there are tons of illegals. This is enough proof for me.

Second proof would be the paper and printing ink of legals and illegals. If they compare them scientificly and the paper and ink turn out to be exactly the same...

I can't wait for the police and Interpol to search the office and printing works. But I am affraid that Stamperija is smart enough to don't keep illegals in their archives and to delete and destroy files and designs.

Further more Stamperija is from Lithuania. Almost all the sellers of illegal new issues I encounter on Ebay are from Lithuania or Russia. Coincidence?

But if Interpol does, and Stamperija is shut down, then Impressor and IGPC are smiling... New clients for them and the bombardment of new issues will keep on going...
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by ausfoo »

I was looking at bird stamps just now, and bumped into a listing of all the BIRD stamps of Mozambique. They just look so cheapo..

http://www.bird-stamps.org/country/mozamb.htm
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Stewie1980 »

ausfoo wrote:I was looking at bird stamps just now, and bumped into a listing of all the BIRD stamps of Mozambique. They just look so cheapo..

http://www.bird-stamps.org/country/mozamb.htm
The first two and a half rows are from the 'good' period, which I collect. After that, from 1999 onwards, it just hurts my eyes!

And this website lists the stamps till 2011. In 2012 Mozam... I mean Stamperija issued dozens more!
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

I'm no bird expert (at least not the feathered variety) but a small redeeming feature is that it seems that most are African birds!

You have not got masses of penguins, emus, swans etc not indigenous to Africa portrayed.

No doubt I will be very quickly corrected if I'm wrong!
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Stewie1980 »

toschka wrote:I'm no bird expert (at least not the feathered variety) but a small redeeming feature is that it seems that most are African birds!

You have not got masses of penguins, emus, swans etc not indigenous to Africa portrayed.

No doubt I will be very quickly corrected if I'm wrong!
I think some stamps in rows 4, 5 and 6 have some non-African birds.

These stamps were IGPC issues (from the time before they discovered photoshop :lol: ) and back then they issued a lot of 'Birds of the World' sheets for their client countries.

Also back then in the late 90s and beginning 2000s IGPC issued more stamps then they do now! :shock:
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by saifbeg »

Princestamps wrote:
Fair enough, but the two collectors of wallpaper on this thread Safibeg and Sisophon, can not seem to stop deriding Stewie1980, Ausfoo and me. Rather than get into pitched rhetoric I have decided a poll will prove that Wallpaper stamps are on the extreme margins of philately rather their idea its the future of stamp collecting and totally legit as the catalogues (Faced with no choice) will reluctantly include them.

I accommodate them and their material, yes, but what I can't accommodate is their putting down and slagging off of people who don't like wallpaper and think it should be restricted and even outlawed.
It is your group who continually lambast the people like me and not the other way around. Your interpretation of this topic is very much like the Communist mehtod of changing history so that their atrocities are hidden under an agenda of "good will".

I did not start this topic, I did not continually attack those that collect stamps that you term "wall paper" and I did not declare those that do not real "stamp collectors". This topic attacked a collection area that people did collect and those who did came out and defended it.

If anything it should a mentality that is hard to define as anything else but exclusionary. Whats next? Would you like to ban any stamps appearing in catalogues that come from the third world?

This is a ludicrous topic clearly attacking a facet of stamp collects and here you describe yourself as the ones attacked.

And if you'd like proof its comments like these:
Mostly average to below average intelligence people with money to spare, the same types who collected all those Franklin Mint plates, Thomas Kinkaid paintings and junk like that.
that should rightfully get you attacked.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Princestamps »

saifbeg wrote:
Princestamps wrote:

Mostly average to below average intelligence people with money to spare, the same types who collected all those Franklin Mint plates, Thomas Kinkaid paintings and junk like that.
that should rightfully get you attacked.

First of all that comment was a direct answer to someone else asking "Who collects this stuff". Taken out of context. But of the many people I know who collect stamps, a wide variety of people from various walks of life, none collect wallpaper stamps and fewer still even like them. If you don't believe me check out the recent polls.

Face it, you are the minority and I am the majority.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

Face it, you are the minority and I am the majority.
This is only true insofar as it relates to members of this Forum.

I wonder how this popularity relates in terms of sales? There is probably no way of reliably finding out yet even respected 'mainstream' auctions sell this stuff in either general lots or lots made up totally of this stuff. As I have stated before there are many so-called 'respected' dealers who sell the 'classic' stuff as well as the wallpaper. It would be interesting to know how sales of this material is reflected in their turnover.

As much as it is derided and hated by some this stuff probably amounts to a fair percentage of turnover for some dealers. (and these are dealers who are members of the PTS, ASDA etc etc)

You cannot make sweeping generalisations based on a poll of which only a small percentage of the membership partakes in and which represents only a very small percentage of the overall stamp collecting fraternity.

Huge quantities of this material finds its way onto the market. Someone somewhere is buying it otherwise it would not be produced, it would not appear in catalogues, it would not appear on dealer wholesale lists, it would not appear on Internet auction sites etc. etc. No one is going to waste their time, money and effort on this stuff unless there was a market for it.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by locakart »

Princestamps wrote:
saifbeg wrote:
Princestamps wrote:

Mostly average to below average intelligence people with money to spare, the same types who collected all those Franklin Mint plates, Thomas Kinkaid paintings and junk like that.
that should rightfully get you attacked.

First of all that comment was a direct answer to someone else asking "Who collects this stuff". Taken out of context. But of the many people I know who collect stamps, a wide variety of people from various walks of life, none collect wallpaper stamps and fewer still even like them. If you don't believe me check out the recent polls.

Face it, you are the minority and I am the majority.
But this is what you say that you collect
But I am not above critique myself, I buy new issues of Pitcairn with all manner of riduclous Bounty based topics with fervour, and God help you if I miss a Tristan da Cunha item in an auction. I also produce my own Maverick country (Taniquah) thru Panterra and collect the labels of Lundy. Sometimes I enjoy this stuff more than hunting down the 10 Malta stamps I don't have.
Your own Maverick country?

And you have the gall to attack other people and impugn their intelligence for collecting wallpaper?

And why should being in the majority of the very, very limited population who answered your poll make you right? Your attitude isn't even consistent with itself - as you admit above - to know what you think is right.

You seem determined however to launch a Messianic attack in deprecatory and at times quite unpleasant terms on people who seem to be collecting much the same stuff as you do.

I find the constant sniping at other people because they aren't collecting what you think they should be collecting, even though you collect the same kind of stuff yourself, to be at the best petty and at the worst offensive.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by saifbeg »

Princestamps wrote:
saifbeg wrote:
Princestamps wrote:

Mostly average to below average intelligence people with money to spare, the same types who collected all those Franklin Mint plates, Thomas Kinkaid paintings and junk like that.
that should rightfully get you attacked.

First of all that comment was a direct answer to someone else asking "Who collects this stuff". Taken out of context. But of the many people I know who collect stamps, a wide variety of people from various walks of life, none collect wallpaper stamps and fewer still even like them. If you don't believe me check out the recent polls.

Face it, you are the minority and I am the majority.
How nice you ignored the rest of my post. Makes it easier for me to destroy your argument.

This reeks of a child mentality since you yourself seem to deem the need for a victory here where there isn't one. A mountain out of a molehill as it were.

Lets look at your polls academically shall we?

From your topic "How do you feel about "Wallpaper stamp issues""

Only 21 out of a membership out of 1000's answered your poll. That isn't even 0.01% of the population of this board and your poll is flawed as it is.

9 people answered "I don't really care about them". Out of these nine who voted some have said:
I voted for "I don't really care about them".

I don't actively collect them but happily add them to my world-wide collection if I come across any
This is pretty much me as well. If they are listed in Gibbons, and they turn up in my mail box, in they go quite happily. I do not actively buy them.
I like them but I won't necessarily go out looking for them. If I find a nice cheap lot of them I will pick it up.
I just don't care about them.

If you want to collect wallpaper, then do so. If you don't want to collect wallpaper, then don't. Your business, not mine.
These are the top 4 who said they don't care about them but also have said that they would still add them to their collection if they are legal.

Not only are you fudging the numbers and the method of address this in a logical and concise manner you are outright lying. You should be a member of a communist party if you are good at fudging these.

The fact is you have no basis to stand on as it is. Many on your own polls have comments that:
I feel no urge to go round telling fellow collectors that they shouldn't collect what they are collecting. Or that they should only collect what I collect. I collect postal stationery, I've had enough people tell me "but they aren't proper stamps". No, they aren't - does that make me a worse person?
Not much to add here, except to say that people sometimes enjoy lobster thermidor, and at other times, they just want a Twinkie (it's a fatty snack to those unfamiliar with them). That you detest "wallpaper" with every bone in your body is curious. You've rattled this sabre in the past, and you seem oddly preoccupied with the subject.
I would suggest you calm yourself down and do as you wish to your collection. You are not the messiah of stamp collecting, you are not in charge of a crusade, you are nothing but another stamp collector in a million who does this hobby.

No one is saying collect wallpaper. No one is saying illegal issues should be legal. What people are saying is that this is my hobby and I'll damn well defend it from people who actively attack it like some inquisition or a purge.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Princestamps »

Some wallpaper for you all in case you have forgotten what it looks like. Remember that Saifbeg and Sisophon are defending this stuff. They are all from issues of GF Rosen's catalogues. Most of the stuff is I suspect Stamperija material.

Image

As you can see - Elephants were only part of these items.

Image

Classic ILLEGAL wallpaper issues from Somalia, Grace Kelly, J Lo and of course Marilyn Monroe. This stuff is directly targetting legitimate philatelic markets and runs the hobby down.

Image

Not forgetting, Elvis Presley garbage, by far his mug is plastered on the most wallpaper issues around, mainly as he is so popular.

Image

Some super ugly Stamperija stuff for you
Last edited by Princestamps on 12 Jul 2013 15:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Princestamps »

Stamperija just can't stop flowing and then we have some dodgy Russian stuff too

Image

Beatles, Dr Who and Star Trek stuff from Congo and Chad, where they are hugely popular no doubt

Image

This Abkhazia sheet is hoot, where the heck is Abkhazia, its a Russian statelet that does not exist

Image

Issued to celebrate a Disney land opening in Ubangiland? (Central African Republic was known as Oubangi Chari before the 50s and the Ubangi women with plate lips come from there). The capital Bangui is a contraction of Ubangi, so I am not being racist.

Image

How about some beautiful butterflies from Gabon. Only 3 quid or some $5 US per beautiful hand coloured sheet.

This is what our detractors are defending, would you have it in your collection?
Last edited by Princestamps on 12 Jul 2013 16:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by ausfoo »

I think they're from Impressor. The most disturbing fact of current "legal" wallpaper is that the agents do not have to pay the country any money to sell mint stamps under their name! Only a promised sum of money will be paid.

Even in the Trucials period, agents had to pay respective states 70% of FV for every mint stamp printed.

I'm curious if a dealer now buys all these Burundi stamps and then brings them to Burundi now and mail a lot of mail there (as he got those stamps wayyyy below face value), will the Burundian authorities reject the stamps?
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

There is a difference between what I call 'genuine' wallpaper - ie officially issued stamps valid for postage - and fake crap issued in the name of a country that is not valid for postage. Much of the derided Burundi issues and the vast majority of the Rwandan recent issues fall into that category. So there is little chance of this stuff ending up in Bujumbura or Kigali to be used for postage. If it did the peddler or user would not find the inside of an African jail very comfortable.

A very large percentage of the Rosen stuff is fake crap.

Saying that I do not think the 'defenders' of wallpaper issues are defending this fake rubbish that is on the market. It is pointless and asinine to attack someone whatever the collect - everyone to their own thing. If someone wants to collect the fake crap - are they any different from someone who collects pretty labels for Nagaland, Staffa, Lower Bongloland - or someone who collects Rhodesian 'Admirals'. They are all collectors and it is their choice as to what they collect and spend their money on. My objection is to the peddling and producing of fake rubbish the funds of which apparently fund other even less savoury criminal activities.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by saifbeg »

So now instead of defending your inaccurate polls you now started inconsequential attacks on your assumptions of what I collect. How interesting.

As I've mentioned in this thread, and as you no doubt have ignored in your blind crusading, that I only collect legal issues that are marked as such by the two big catalgoue companies, SG and Scott.

If these stamps are not listed then I don't collect them.

This is the view point of many who also participated in your polls. You should start reading more and make sure to not step in the realms of fanaticism since you're at the tipping point.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by saifbeg »

ausfoo wrote: I'm curious if a dealer now buys all these Burundi stamps and then brings them to Burundi now and mail a lot of mail there (as he got those stamps wayyyy below face value), will the Burundian authorities reject the stamps?
Why not try it for yourself since you've asked this question. Be your own guinea pig and test it out.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by locakart »

This Abkhazia sheet is hoot, where the heck is Abkhazia, its a Russian statelet that does not exist
From Wikipedia:
Abkhazia (Abkhaz: Аҧсны́ Apsny [apʰsˈnɨ]; Georgian: აფხაზეთი Apkhazeti; Russian: Абхазия Abkhaziya) is a disputed territory on the eastern coast of the Black Sea and the south-western flank of the Caucasus.

Abkhazia considers itself an independent state, called the Republic of Abkhazia or Apsny. This status is recognised by Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Nauru, Tuvalu and also by the partially recognised state of South Ossetia, and the unrecognized Transnistria and Nagorno-Karabakh.

The Georgian government and the majority of the world's governments consider Abkhazia a part of Georgia's territory. Under Georgia's official designation it is an autonomous republic, called the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia, whose government sits in exile in Tbilisi.
So not even Russian (unless you are one of those who still think that Russia = USSR = Russia), existing but not widely recognized.

But on the other hand:
I also produce my own Maverick country (Taniquah) thru Panterra and collect the labels of Lundy.
So have a sneer at Abkhazia, at least it claims to be a country unlike Lundy.

And at least Abkhazia exists, unlike Taniquah.

So the stamps with Abkhazia's name on them are total junk and haven't been anywhere near Abkhazia? Agreed on both counts, I'm not defending wallpaper. Don't collect them then.

But don't resort to cheap sneers because you haven't done your research properly.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

saifbeg wrote:
ausfoo wrote: I'm curious if a dealer now buys all these Burundi stamps and then brings them to Burundi now and mail a lot of mail there (as he got those stamps wayyyy below face value), will the Burundian authorities reject the stamps?
Why not try it for yourself since you've asked this question. Be your own guinea pig and test it out.
If he does try it out he will find why stamps from a country like Burundi are so easy to fake and get away with.

Firstly you would need to find a Burundian Embassy to get a Visa - very few countries have a Burundian embassy simply because the country cannot afford such luxuries. Then you have to find an airline that flies to Bujumbura - usually quite a palava as you will have to change planes several times. You may be warned against travel there as there is smouldering guerilla warfare in the rural areas which make the game parks and other attractions off limit.
Plus you have various other hassles pertaining to many third world countries - malaria, yellow fever, language problems etc. etc.

However if anyone does want still to travel there I do have contacts who can act as guides and despite the perils I have outlined any visitor will find the experience rewarding. You will certainly come away with a different perspective on life!

You may also find that many of the 'genuine' stamps turn out to be unauthorised by the government in Bujumbura as many of the 'contracts; were signed in Europe by disaffected former ministers or Government ministers visiting Europe who were more than happy to sign any piece of paper for some idiot who was prepared to pay several thousand dollars for his/her signature.

The now closed 'stamp scandal' web site run by Marino-Montero used to try and justify many fake issues produced in the name of African countries this way. Many of the so-called 'contracts' were not recognised in the countries they pertained to and were never signed in the country of origin.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by Stewie1980 »

ausfoo wrote:I think they're from Impressor.
No Impressor stamps on the pages Princestamps is showing. The stamps on the first page are from Stamperija. All the stamps on the other pages are all illegals!
locakart wrote:So the stamps with Abkhazia's name on them are total junk and haven't been anywhere near Abkhazia?
Abkhazia has stamps, but they are only valid for inland mail. For mail outside Abkhazia they have to use Russian stamps.
Unfortunately 99% of the Abkhazian stamps you will find on Ebay etc are illegals.
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by ausfoo »

toschka wrote:
saifbeg wrote:
ausfoo wrote: I'm curious if a dealer now buys all these Burundi stamps and then brings them to Burundi now and mail a lot of mail there (as he got those stamps wayyyy below face value), will the Burundian authorities reject the stamps?
Why not try it for yourself since you've asked this question. Be your own guinea pig and test it out.
If he does try it out he will find why stamps from a country like Burundi are so easy to fake and get away with.

Firstly you would need to find a Burundian Embassy to get a Visa - very few countries have a Burundian embassy simply because the country cannot afford such luxuries. Then you have to find an airline that flies to Bujumbura - usually quite a palava as you will have to change planes several times. You may be warned against travel there as there is smouldering guerilla warfare in the rural areas which make the game parks and other attractions off limit.
Plus you have various other hassles pertaining to many third world countries - malaria, yellow fever, language problems etc. etc.

However if anyone does want still to travel there I do have contacts who can act as guides and despite the perils I have outlined any visitor will find the experience rewarding. You will certainly come away with a different perspective on life!

You may also find that many of the 'genuine' stamps turn out to be unauthorised by the government in Bujumbura as many of the 'contracts; were signed in Europe by disaffected former ministers or Government ministers visiting Europe who were more than happy to sign any piece of paper for some idiot who was prepared to pay several thousand dollars for his/her signature.

The now closed 'stamp scandal' web site run by Marino-Montero used to try and justify many fake issues produced in the name of African countries this way. Many of the so-called 'contracts' were not recognised in the countries they pertained to and were never signed in the country of origin.
Thanks for the reply Toshka.

Let's make it more realistic. Why not the dealer goes to Solomon Islands? Much more practical and the stamps are also produced by Stamperija. Do you think the Post Office will reject those stamps as postage when they start to find out, this white man (typical stereotype of stamp dealers) from let's say Australia :lol: has more mint Stamperija stamps than their Post office vault holds!
Countries: Malaysia, Trucial States Thematics: "Postal Services", "Postmen", "Post Boxes", etc. (anything related)Interested in all Stamp Catalogues (Especially thematic, one-country, and specialized catalogs)
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ausfoo
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by ausfoo »

Yes, I do not criticize others on what they collect. Collect what that gives you joy. It it a hobby.

What I am crusading against is the unethical actions of the agencies and the mass load of ugly (I know someone is going to say "ugly" is subjective , probably) topicals produced (note that I am not using the word wallpaper for the time being as Saifbeg is really sensitive to it :D :wink: ) ) If these agencies can start producing better stamps like CACSO, Pobjoy etc. (any company that doesn't produced 100+ Minisheets every year), I will not complain a single word.

That saying so, I admit collecting postal history of these countries with agency stamps on it, is really satisfying.

Like I say, I just wished that these countries manage their stamp production better and these agencies come to their sense and produce better quality stamps. Oh well, after all, it's all commercialism!
Countries: Malaysia, Trucial States Thematics: "Postal Services", "Postmen", "Post Boxes", etc. (anything related)Interested in all Stamp Catalogues (Especially thematic, one-country, and specialized catalogs)
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by toschka »

Let's make it more realistic. Why not the dealer goes to Solomon Islands? Much more practical and the stamps are also produced by Stamperija. Do you think the Post Office will reject those stamps as postage when they start to find out, this white man (typical stereotype of stamp dealers) from let's say Australia :lol: has more mint Stamperija stamps than their Post office vault holds!
What I would like to see is a copy of the actual 'contract' between the producer of the stamps and the Ministry responsible. Then it would be interesting to see what percentage of this output was genuine. Many of the 'agencies' know full well the isolation of many of these countries means they can produce what they like almost with impunity. I know that issues from some countries that would be labelled as fake have, in the past, appeared in respected catalogues like Michel simply on the strength of a copy of a very dubious contract. I cannot say if this is still the case or not as I no longer have the catalogues in question or more recent editions to check.

As I have stated before this 'system' is very prevalent in the 'proof' coin world where coins are churned out to the collector market that have no validity within the country they are issued for (except a statement they are 'legal tender'). Try using said coins in the country named on them you will have a very hard and long time convincing the local constabularly you are not a counterfeiter and swindler. I suspect this would be the case with almost 100% of the Stamperija issues. It is doubtful if anyone would like to try this out in Guinea Bissau with the Lady Gaga issue unless they would like to be incarcerated in a remote country with few diplomatic missions to take up you case!
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Re: Crazy Wallpaper Stamps/Illegal Stamps of Today

Post by saifbeg »

ausfoo wrote: What I am crusading against is the unethical actions of the agencies and the mass load of ugly (I know someone is going to say "ugly" is subjective , probably) topicals produced (note that I am not using the word wallpaper for the time being as Saifbeg is really sensitive to it :D :wink: ) ) If these agencies can start producing better stamps like CACSO, Pobjoy etc. (any company that doesn't produced 100+ Minisheets every year), I will not complain a single word.
Then here is the deal. You go to a country, like Burundi, and tell them to cut off all contacts with stamp producers until they can get better agencies. In the meantime I'm sure you would be able to finance their expenses right?

Lets be realistic here. You live in the first world. You have issues that are not present in the third world. As a member and passport holder of a country in the third world there are issues which are totally different from what you have in the first world. Issues like food, clothing, housing and such.

Until they get these sorted out on their own these producers will hopefully provide a legal stamp source for these countries to get them some capital. Like others have said before they have more important things to worry about than some collector sitting inside his air conditioned room crusading about pieces of paper.

They honestly have more pressing and worrisome issues to deal with.

Enough with your "white man's burden" situation here. You don't collect them? Thats for you to decide. You are in no position to dictate what a country can and cannot do with their own decision.

Colonization is over with. Get over it and collect what you enjoy.
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