USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp general discussion

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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by PeterS »

capetriangle wrote:All concerned

Would you believe it Position 73 has been re-listed, same price, now closing August 3, 2012.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney
Richard, I predict it will still be available on the 4th August. :wink:
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by revcollector »

PeterS wrote:Richard, I predict it will still be available on the 4th August. :wink:
I agree. BTW, the seller states:

I have been asked how I determined the value. On June 26, 2012, the last C3a Inverted Jenny was sold at auction. It was position 24, a lower grade than this one, certified by PSE as Fine 70. The auction house estimated a sales price of $450,000 before the auction, and it realized $280,000.

Actually according to the online sale, it closed, which means it did not sell.

The other example, position 74 did sell for $625K but it had been in an album in the Frelinghuysen Collection for 80 years so it was unusually fresh.

This one has been out and about and I have real doubts about this example bringing more than $225K-$250K at auction. That's the real reason it's on ebay.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by GlenStephens »

revcollector wrote:
I agree. BTW, the seller states:

I have been asked how I determined the value. On June 26, 2012, the last C3a Inverted Jenny was sold at auction. It was position 24, a lower grade than this one, certified by PSE as Fine 70. The auction house estimated a sales price of $450,000 before the auction, and it realized $280,000.

Actually according to the online sale, it closed, which means it did not sell.
Do we know which auction this was?
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by revcollector »

GlenStephens wrote:
revcollector wrote:
I agree. BTW, the seller states:

I have been asked how I determined the value. On June 26, 2012, the last C3a Inverted Jenny was sold at auction. It was position 24, a lower grade than this one, certified by PSE as Fine 70. The auction house estimated a sales price of $450,000 before the auction, and it realized $280,000.

Actually according to the online sale, it closed, which means it did not sell.
Do we know which auction this was?
The 2012 Siegel Rarities of the World sale.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by capetriangle »

revcollector
Actually according to the online sale, it closed, which means it did not sell.
I believe it did sell since the realized price was listed on the Siegel website. I believe it would have otherwise have been listed with a "0," as was Position 26 on 29 September 2009.

Kindest regards, Richard
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by GlenStephens »

So it seems ths example below sold for $280,000 hammer at Seigel 2012?

They described it as fresh and bright and sound, with single light hinge mark so if by far the most respected auction house for important USA stamps gets that, the market is clearly telling us $US300,000 or so for typical centred copies is now where the real market is at.

Way down from a few years back, and still too high compared to its large number known IMHO, but at least this is a recent comparable yardstick.

In 30 years as a full time stamp dealer I have learned that the market sets prices, not dealers or owners. 8)

https://www.siegelauctions.com/dynamic/lots.php?year=2012&lot ... 26,%202012
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by Frank_King »

For a further reference on current values, the following copy was sold at a Matthew Bennett International sale this year (February 29, 2012) for $150,000 before the 15% buyer's fee.


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It was described as:

"Airmail, 1918, 24¢ carmine rose & blue, center inverted (C3a), position 89, bright, fresh and well centered, disturbed original gum, small thin spot and light crease, Very Fine appearance.
Scott $450,000

ONE OF THE MOST HANDSOME EXAMPLES OF THIS RENOWNED U.S. ERROR EXTANT.

Expertization: 1991 PF Certificate.

Provenance: Maffeo. "
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by gavin-h »

PeterS wrote:
capetriangle wrote:All concerned

Would you believe it Position 73 has been re-listed, same price, now closing August 3, 2012.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney
Richard, I predict it will still be available on the 4th August. :wink:
Anyone care to hazard a guess as to whether it sold, or whether our friend is still just peeing in the wind :?: :lol: :wink:
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by GlenStephens »

No sign of it yet Gavin -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/C3a-Inverted-Jenny-Stamp-1918-24-cen ... 33798d695d

Every time it is listed and goes unsold on ebay, the more the clear message is sent - it is overpriced.

Even the dopiest Bunnies can google - :idea:

https://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8 ... d+Jenny%22
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by Global Administrator »

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Well the "Locket Copy" (Position 9 in original sheet of 100) of the USA 1918 24c Inverted Jenny has surfaced yet AGAIN! May 20 at Stacks Bowers New York. Estimate $US100,000-$200,000.

https://www.stacksbowers.com/BrowseAuctions/LotDetail/tabid/2 ... fault.aspx

The only stamp lot in a coin auction, so maybe hoping to entice a cashed up coinie who does not know its recent curious history?

Offering it on ebay and various other ploys and gimmicks did not entice a Bunny, so here we go again at a REAL auction this time. (Well not a real STAMP auction anyway!)

The Inverted Jenny Locket

Mabel Green’s “Jenny” Locket

Gift from Colonel Edward H. R. Green to his wife

United States Air Post 1918 24c Carmine Red and Blue, Center Inverted (C3a), position 9, never hinged, straight edge at top, short corner perforation at upper left, trivial corner creases at bottom left and right, encased back-to-back with never hinged example of the normal stamp (C3) in gold-rimmed glass sided locket with clasp, one side with small chip at bottom.

The inaugural flight of the United States Air Post service between Washington and New York via Philadelphia was scheduled for May 15th, 1918. The rate was set at 24c; 2c for postage, 12 cents for air mail service, and 10c for special delivery. To commemorate the event the Post Office decided to produce a specially ordered air post issue for the occasion.

The stamp was to be bi-colored depicting a blue Curtis JN4HM "Jenny" biplane set within a carmine red frame containing the 24 CENTS denomination and U.S. POSTAGE. The production was swift; the engraving only began on May 4th, yet the stamps, printed in sheets of 100, were available at Post Offices on May 13th.

In Washington D.C. on May 10th, 1918 a stamp collector remarked in a letter to a friend that "one should be on the lookout for inverts". He was referring to the rare inverted center stamps that had occurred in 1869 and 1901 when the Post Office had previously issued bi-colored postage stamps.

The Post Office was still acutely aware of the embarrassment caused when three of the six stamps issued for the Pan American exhibition of 1901 had turned up with inverted centers on the philatelic market. It is said that as many as three sheets of 24c inverts were discovered and destroyed during the printing of the new Air Post issue.

The writer of the letter, a twenty eight year old clerk named William T. Robey, walked into his local Post Office on New York Avenue on the morning of May 14th, 1918 to purchase a sheet of the new stamps.

To his complete astonishment each of the one hundred vignettes of the blue "Jenny" biplane were printed upside down. Hardly believing his luck he immediately asked the clerk to let him examine the entire stock of the new stamps for further examples, there were none.

Shortly after returning home with his precious $24.00 purchase he received a visit from a United States postal inspector who demanded the return of the stamps. Robey refused to part with his treasure and very quickly made plans to sell the sheet. Within a week he was $15,000.00 richer and the stamps were in the possession of Eugene Klein, a noted Philadelphia stamp dealer.

Klein quickly set about advertising the stamps for sale; $250 each for the stamps with perforations on all sides, $175.00 for the nineteen copies at the top and right of the sheet with straight edges. However, before a single stamp had sold, a collector arrived and purchased the entire sheet for $20,000.00. His name was Colonel Edward Howland Robinson Green.

Colonel Edward "Ned" Green was probably the most famous accumulator of both stamps and coins during the first half of the twentieth century. Born in England in 1868 he was the only son of Henrietta "Hetty" Green the so-called "Witch of Wall Street". Despite being one of, if not the richest woman in America, Hetty Green was equally famous as the most miserly. She lived a parsimonious life and raised her son and daughter in a state of austerity.

Ned spent his early adult life working in the family business and was successful, allowing him to substantially improve the standard of living he had endured in the earlier part of his life. By 1892 he was based near Dallas, Texas and taking an interest in Railroads, Banks, and Politics. In 1910 he was awarded the rank of Colonel by the Governor of Texas; he retained the title for the rest of his life.

He remained unmarried well into his forties with his mother doing her utmost to deter potential suitors thinking them all gold diggers. His sister was finally permitted to marry a member of the Astor family at the age of thirty-eight.

Ned Green met Mabel Harlow for the first time in Chicago in the early 1890's while, among several occupations, she was working as an exotic dancer. The relationship was brief. Nevertheless she made such an impression that when they reunited in Texas more than fifteen years later they immediately became a couple. Her status as his "Housekeeper" caused quite a scandal at the time and it is known that Hetty, back in New York, referred to her as Miss Harlot.

In July 1916 Hetty Green died and Ned inherited $50,000,000.00, exactly one year and one week later Ned married Mabel in Chicago. In complete contrast to his late mother Ned Green began to spend. He spent money on everything but he especially liked spending his inheritance on stamps, coins, cars, and Mabel.

Ned had been married for a little over ten months when he purchased the sheet of inverted "Jennies" for $20,000.00 from Eugene Klein. At the time this was a world record for any philatelic item, and would stand until the Ferrary Sales began in France in 1922.

The sheet was almost immediately broken into blocks and singles with Green retaining, among others, the major position blocks and the top row of the sheet with the straight edges from where the "locket" copy (position 9) originates. Before separating the stamps Klein carefully numbered all the stamps from 1-100 on reverse in light pencil.

It was often rumored that Colonel Green always carried a copy of the "Jenny" attached to his watch fob. Following his death in 1936 and the subsequent auction sales of his philatelic holdings during the 1940's no trace was ever found of this artifact. Not until June 1950 when renowned philatelic journalist George Sloane was called to a midtown bank to examine an estate item found in a safety deposit box was the mystery solved.

Sloane recalled the visit in a column from July 7 1956: "It was the estate of the late Mrs. E. H. R. Green, widow of the Colonel". The item in question was; "a crystal locket containing a 24c airmail invert, enclosed with the normal variety of the stamp". The locket was not opened, and, according to Sloane, forwarded to the beneficiary.

When Mabel Green died in Miami at age 79 in April 1950 she bequeathed the locket to her longtime companion Dorothy Nicholson. Dorothy moved to Long Island, later marrying a New York lawyer named Lester Stickles, the locket remained in a safety deposit box in New York.

As the years passed collectors began recording all the known positions from the sheet from the numbers Eugene Klein had penciled on the backs of the stamps in 1918. Only one stamp from the top row eluded the researchers; position 9. In an interesting twist position 18 from the Miller collection housed at the New Public Library was stolen in 1977 along with 53 other rare stamps.

Recovered in the early 1980’s its perforations had been removed at top and its number on the reverse had been altered from 18 to the missing number 9. Finally on December 26th 1984, George Amick, author of The Inverted Jenny, Money, Mystery, Mania (1986) was permitted to photograph the locket for the first time. By comparison to the adjoining stamps it was confirmed as the missing position.

Dorothy Stickles died at age 90 in 2001 and the stamp was brought to market for the first time in its history. It has sold privately twice in the intervening years firstly in 2003 to an unnamed collector by Robert A. Siegel Inc. for $90,000.00 and secondly, in 2009 to the present owner.

During expertizing for the 2010 PSE certificate, the locket was opened for the first time this century. Experts confirmed that the two stamps were totally separate despite being gum to gum for over ninety years, and actually floated freely within the confines of the locket. Klein’s manuscript '9" was also revealed for the first time.

EXTREMELY FRESH BRIGHT VIBRANT COLORS, ONE OF ONLY FIVE KNOWN NEVER HINGED EXAMPLES, FINE with 2010 Professional Stamp Experts certificate.

Est. $100,000-$200,000

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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by ajpower »

Global Administrator wrote:
The only stamp lot in a coin auction, so maybe hoping to entice a cashed up coinie who does not know its recent curious history?

'Cashed up coinie' - only Glen should coin a phrase like this? :roll:
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by Global Administrator »

Some background on The Locket Copy from George Amick in Linns, below - exactly a year back when it also was unsold at Harmer's.

The existence of it was not known until 1956, and after that it vanished again for decades -

===================

In 1996, at the request of the National Postal Museum, I wrote to Dorothy Nicholson asking whether she would lend the locket to the museum for its Inverted Jenny "Class Reunion" and exhibition later that year.

The exhibition eventually would contain 12 singles and three blocks of four, and inclusion of the locket would have given the public its first opportunity to see it. Regrettably, her lawyer and the museum weren't able to work out the necessary arrangements.

The year after Dorothy died, Robert A. Siegel Auction Galleries included the locket in its May 18, 2002, Rarities of the World sale in New York.

Presumably, the item was consigned by its late owner's estate, although that is unconfirmed. However, the high bid of $80,000 fell short of the reserve price, and the lot was withdrawn.

On March 17, 2003, the locket was sold privately for $90,000 through Siegel to an anonymous buyer.

Around 2009, according to a provenance compiled by Siegel, the locket again was sold privately, for an undisclosed price, to an unnamed numismatic dealer.

It next turned up as a featured item in a Heritage/Bennett Auctions sale Dec. 11-12, 2009. An online reference to the sale reported that bidding would start at $200,000, with a buyer's premium of $30,000 to be tacked onto the final price. The lot failed to sell.

In 2010, the locket stamp received its only certification, from Professional Stamp Experts (PSE) of Newport Beach, Calif. Certificate 1218045 describes the invert as "genuine unused, o.g., never hinged, Position 9 - the so-called locket copy, with a short corner perf at the upper left, a small corner crease at the bottom left, another at the bottom right and a natural straight edge at the top."

The certificate went on to say that the invert's normal companion, the Scott C3, "is genuine unused, o.g., never hinged, with a diagonal gum bend at the upper right, a gum wrinkle at the lower left and a small corner crease at the bottom right — this copy has been back to back in the locket with the Position 9 Scott No. C3a."

Scott Murphy, owner and CEO of PSE, recalled when the coin dealer who owned the locket brought the item, plus another Jenny invert, to his office to be certified. Murphy told him that for this purpose, the two stamps in the locket would have to be temporarily removed.

"He was OK with that," Murphy said.

Together, the two examined the locket with a magnifying glass to make certain it could be opened safely. The locket wasn't sealed, but had a small latch that proved to be easy to disengage. Inside, the two stamps "kind of float" and are able to "breathe" and "move around a little bit" in relation to each other, Murphy said.

When he removed the stamps, he found that "they weren't stuck together in any way," despite having been enclosed with their gum sides together, probably for more than nine decades.

"We put them through the expertizing process, and they came back as the certificate described," he said. "I put them back in the locket and closed and latched it."

I asked Murphy whether a penciled "9" was visible on the gum of the locket copy, and he assured me that it was. That mark was made in 1918 by Eugene Klein, who numbered the backs of all 100 stamps on the sheet to record their position before he broke it into singles and blocks for his client, Colonel Green, a foresighted act that greatly facilitated the plating of the inverts long afterward.

When Murphy first saw the locket, he said, it looked at a glance as if the error stamp was perforated on all four sides — but this was because the two stamps were so aligned that the perforation teeth across the top of the normal stamp were visible above the straight edge of the invert. The photo of the locket in the current Harmer auction catalog shows that the two stamps have shifted somewhat relative to each other since then.

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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by Global Administrator »

GlenStephens wrote:
ProCoin wrote:
I stand behind the current estimated values.
Well be prepared for some VERY sore feet. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
ProCoin, who was trying to flog this and another Jenny on ebay of all places, and plug the event here, STILL has the "Locket Copy" on his website for $US525,000!!!!

https://procoin.com/2012/04/25/featured-inventory-5/

For something that might scrape along for a real sale at last, at $100,000 at a REAL auction in a few weeks, pretty interested if he still believes this - "I stand behind the current estimated values"

The owner is about to take The Bath Of The Century is my guess. :idea:
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by PlentyGaps »

This has been a most informative read indeed. I am about to try the impossible - namely inject a small measure of basic economics into the issue - something Glen does automatically (I suspect) with his many years of experience behind him. However, he may just be wrong - let's test it!

From what I see, the first block of 100 were sold twice in 1918, maximum price $20,000. That's $200 per stamp.

The next sale I see in this thread is in 2003.

The time between sales is 85 years. Inflation automatically doubles the value of nearly anything every 8 - 10 years.

Do the maths yourselves. If it doubles every 10 years, then 9 lots of 10 years gets the original $200 to $51,200. If it doubles every 8 years, the 11 lots of 8 years gets it to $204,800.

The stamp sold got $90,000 in Y2003. That is, double the $51K calculated. Or half the $200K calculated.

All in all, reasonable!

It has been 12 years since 2003, during which time we had the Global Financial Crisis.

Let's say the $90,000 is doubled again. $200,0000 sounds fair. For a very good quality stamp!

BUT let's now talk about the locket.

For the purpose of argument, let's say the locket stamp is "very good quality" even though our eyes tell a different story.

However, it is "UNIQUE" (not my emphasis, but true nevertheless). Not all stamps come with a locket and a story of great love! This alone must add to its value. The question is "How much?" Thanks to the vendor, we have the answer.

Summary
Stamp $200,000 plus locket $325,000 = asking price!

In the spirit of the French theme earlier in the thread, a hearty "VOILA!"

(I'm only 60, so there is a good chance of seeing it sold, but I think current asking price might need to be held where it is for at least a couple more years - or so).

Enough from me, I'm going shopping for lockets.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by aethelwulf »

PlentyGaps wrote:From what I see, the first block of 100 were sold twice in 1918, maximum price $20,000. That's $200 per stamp.

The next sale I see in this thread is in 2003.
The sale in 1918 was for the original post office pane of 100. (Some would call it "sheet of 100", but pedantically the stamps are printed in sheets of 400, cut into panes of 100 for sale at the counter).

The pane was broken into blocks of 4 and singles in 1918.

There have been a kazillion resales of all those examples over the years; how can you just jump 85 years?

Condition is key...some stamps are hinged, some are NH; some have straight edges; some might have a hinge thin. One example got sucked up in a vacuum cleaner, so it's rather banged about.

All-in-all, hard to derive a straight-line rise in value, as each example can have different positives and warts.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by PlentyGaps »

aethelwulf wrote:
There have been a kazillion resales of all those examples over the years; how can you just jump 85 years?

Condition is key...some stamps are hinged, some are NH; some have straight edges; some might have a hinge thin. One example got sucked up in a vacuum cleaner, so it's rather banged about.
I can jump 85 years very easily! Because the specific example used in 2003 is the locket!
Global Administrator wrote:S
On March 17, 2003, the locket was sold privately for $90,000 through Siegel to an anonymous buyer.


[/i]
Since then, if I read correctly, the locket has been sold again at an undisclosed price.

My argument, in the simplest form that I can put it is this.

A stamp that sold for about $200 in 1918 had clearly appreciated in value by 2003. It realised $90,000 inside a locket that contained a nice story. My argument is that this should be seen as fairly expected appreciation in value. Maybe you could break it into a sentence that reads 'the stamp fetched $80,000 & the locket & story increased the value by a further $10,000'. Or something similar.

Now, 12 years later, 'somebody' is asking $525,000?

Wouldn't we all love to know what the 'undisclosed price' was in 2009? Somewhat less than $200,000 according to the way the article reads, based on the auction that fell through.

Either way, the guy (or gal for us gender challenged Aussies) who paid $90,000 and then off-loaded it in 2009 sounds like the clever trader. I strongly suspect that guy nearly doubled the outlay in 6 years.

Maybe the current owner is trying to improve on that result.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by PlentyGaps »

I forgot to add the other possibility - maybe the fact it has a PSE certificate makes all the difference! (At least in the eye of the owner).
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by aethelwulf »

PlentyGaps wrote:I can jump 85 years very easily! Because the specific example used in 2003 is the locket!

A stamp that sold for about $200 in 1918 had clearly appreciated in value by 2003. It realised $90,000 inside a locket that contained a nice story.

Now, 12 years later, 'somebody' is asking $525,000?

Either way, the guy (or gal for us gender challenged Aussies) who paid $90,000 and then off-loaded it in 2009 sounds like the clever trader. I strongly suspect that guy nearly doubled the outlay in 6 years.

Maybe the current owner is trying to improve on that result.
I see now how you were comparing 1918 to 85 years later. 8)

Collectables don't really follow a straight-line growth though...if several new collectors/players come into the market, huge rises can be seen.

As a comparison, from an art auction earlier this month,
Chicago art collector and philanthropist Stefan Edlis sold his Roy Lichtenstein painting "The Ring (Engagement)" for $41.7 million in an auction last night at Sotheby's in New York.

There were only a pair of bids at the Contemporary Art Evening Auction, the Wall Street Journal noted.

Edlis bought "The Ring (Engagement)" in 1997 from a French collector for a mere $2.2 million.
From $2.2 to $41.7 in 18 years, that'll have the seller smiling.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by Global Administrator »

I hate these wanky top end auctioneers, that make nothing transparent or obvious.

The sale has finished and these guys are still accepting bids?

https://www.stacksbowers.com/BrowseAuctions/LotDetail/tabid/2 ... fault.aspx

Was $164,500 the top bid?
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by PlentyGaps »

aethelwulf wrote: Collectables don't really follow a straight-line growth though...if several new collectors/players come into the market, huge rises can be seen.
Quite right! Not too many new collectors though, and it always carries some risk! Google "collector bubbles" for more examples like this.

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Back to the locket!

Can I smell something burning? Fingers, maybe. (Or is it the humble pie that my wife is preparing for me?)

On the plus side, at least we know somebody is prepared to pay more than Glen's paltry $100K estimate! (Sorry Glen - hope you take that in the spirit intended.)

I reckon at $164K, it is nudging what was paid 6 years ago.

Another bid, and it might start something big!
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by Global Administrator »

PlentyGaps wrote:
Can I smell something burning? Fingers, maybe. (Or is it the humble pie that my wife is preparing for me?)

On the plus side, at least we know somebody is prepared to pay more than Glen's paltry $100K estimate! (Sorry Glen - hope you take that in the spirit intended.)
Not my $100,000 estimate - I was quoting the low end of Stacks Bowers estimate -

EXTREMELY FRESH BRIGHT VIBRANT COLORS, ONE OF ONLY FIVE KNOWN NEVER HINGED EXAMPLES, FINE with 2010 Professional Stamp Experts certificate.

Est. $100,000-$200,000
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by PlentyGaps »

Global Administrator wrote:
Was $164,500 the top bid?
It certainly looks like it. The following snip is from their archives page.

Image

So, presuming that 'realized value' now means the locket has changed ownership, I'd like to hear from Procoin again.

1. Has it really been sold?
2. If so, was his right to advertise it for sale transferred with the sale.
3. If it was, then I'm guessing he'd still 'realistically' like to get $525,000 for it.
4. If not, then how long should it be before it is removed from his website?

In the meantime, I am wondering whether somebody might like to help me kick my little ebay business along. I'm not a greedy soul, but it would be nice to offer some higher end business to potential customers. To that end, please somebody (anybody - Glen??) send a scan of something worth maybe $1000 in the market to me & I'll advertise it for $5000 on ebay. No need for anybody to know who the real owner is - that will be our secret!

If somebody buys - well that will prove it's an effective business model. My cut of the profit will be 60% negotiable.

If not, then hopefully it will get mentioned on a well-known site or two & the free publicity would be nice (for me - not that it's all about me, mind).

I'm not saying this is what is going on, but I do think one needs to keep on learning in life & this is one potential lesson to be learned from this thread. There are others, of course, but it seems greed should trump ethics any day of the week!

I don't wish to get too sarcastic (I lie - I do, actually!), and it really has been good reading Procoin's 18 posts on this subject. It would be good if he could fire it up again, otherwise I fear the thread will die. It will be a shame if that happens. I might need to go back to watching reruns of the Simpsons again for entertainment.

(And I almost forgot - sorry Glen, for misunderstanding where that estimate came from. Now about my offer .........somebody..........anybody...........Glen?)
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by Global Administrator »

It is still on his website for $US525,000.

Talk about Barnum and Bailey total hype.
Global Administrator wrote:
GlenStephens wrote:
ProCoin wrote:
I stand behind the current estimated values.
Well be prepared for some VERY sore feet. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
ProCoin, who was trying to flog this and another Jenny on ebay of all places, and plug the event here, STILL has the "Locket Copy" on his website for $US525,000!!!!

https://procoin.com/2012/04/25/featured-inventory-5/

Image

Image
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by birdmanOz »

Does this locket Jenny qualify as a 'slabbed' stamp??

Just wondering :lol:
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by GlenStephens »

birdmanOz wrote:Does this locket Jenny qualify as a 'slabbed' stamp??

Just wondering :lol:
Actually the ORIGINAL slabbed stamp!

STILL on the Barnum and Bailey coinie website for sale. :?: :?: :?: :?:

Following what really goes on with these hyped up offerings is near impossible.

It seems the Bowers and Merena "sale" price might not have been a true sale at all?
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by aethelwulf »

GlenStephens wrote:STILL on the Barnum and Bailey coinie website for sale. :?: :?: :?: :?:
Maybe it's a trick of the website owner.

Leave it up there, to give the appearance they deal in high-end items.

If anyone were to actually try to buy it, then they make an excuse like, "Oh sorry, you're just a little too late, it's already been reserved by someone else." ... Then follow-up with, "However, we have other nice items you might like...."
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by Machaggis52 »

ProCoin wrote:Good afternoon. A couple of quick points.

An image of the stamp in the PSE holder was posted on eBay.

You must know that more than one auction house runs their auctions simultaneously on eBay. I see planes, homes, cars, land, rare coins, art, antiques and thousands upon thousands of other wonderful items on eBay daily. No one would dream of listing an Inverted Jenny on eBay? On this forum, there was a dealer mentioned with a 70,000 Feedback rating listing an Inverted Jenny. That is a lot of stamp business on eBay. He has been on eBay since at least 1997, and I have been on since at least 1999. As far as my eBay Feedback rating, please look again. I have a 350 rating, not 23. I have been posting, buying and selling on eBay for over a decade, successfully. Feedback is only part of what an intelligent buyer uses to determine if he wants to bid or not. Please also show me where it is explained or listed on eBay that a Private auction means it’s a scam. Sorry, I missed the memo on that one.

In my humble opinion, when reviewing an auction house listing you need to look at the entire listing. The auction company estimate of the recently sold C3a Inverted Jenny position 24, (PSE OGph, Fine 70) was $450,000.00, and yet it only realized $280,000. That is 62% of the estimate. In the description (that was also quoted in this thread) they continue on to say, “ The SMQ value in Fine 70 is $340,000.00, but it jumps to $650,000.00 in VF 80 (F-VF 75 is not priced). Based on recent market activity and the attractiveness of this sound example of the Inverted "Jenny", we think it will probably outperform its current SMQ value.”

I just went to Professional Stamp Experts website, and under the Stamp Market Quarterly price guide, I saw today’s values at 340k in FN 70, 440k in FVF 75, and 585k in VF80. I think I have asked a fair price on eBay for position 73 of the C3a Inverted Jenny that is PSE certified and encapsulated as F-VF 75 OGph, and have not over-estimated.

FYI - Heritage did not sell Position 73 in December of 2009. I know. I was there in the auction room with 20-30 others. I also was the consignor of both C3a stamps in the auction, Position 73 and position 9 – The Locket Copy featured on the cover of the catalog (which, by the way, also did not sell), as well as many other stamps, some that sold, some that did not.

Aren’t we all just custodians of these great rarities? Isn’t that part of why you collect? I know these were around before me, and will hopefully be around a long time after I am gone.

The same compass sits on my desk and points north. It works just as well today as the day that I sold it, and the day it was returned.

I am not worried about lack of exposure to the philatelic press. I assure you, when there is an important public sale, they will report it, no matter what the venue.

Who here knows how much it costs to have an item featured on eBay’s home page and its’ Twitter and FaceBook pages? When did you do it, and how?

Thank you all for your great comments, and the support of some of you!
Two points.

1. The 'cert' that you have shown produces no hit on the PSE cert checker.

2. You have not shown the back of the stamp.

If it looks like b******t, feels like b******t and smells like b******t, then it is b******t.

May I suggest that you go and play somewhere else, and stop wasting everyone's time?
With kind regards, Jim
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by aethelwulf »

Machaggis52 wrote:1. The 'cert' that you have shown produces no hit on the PSE cert checker.
It came up in the PSE cert checker for me.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by Machaggis52 »

capetriangle wrote:Glen

The most famous stamp here in America would be the 'upside down airplane (aeroplane).' You are right they would not know it as a #C3a or even as an 'Inverted Jenny.'

In Great Britain or Canada the term 'Penny Black' would be recognized as the world's most famous or earliest stamp. The Americans (and I have been one since 1993) would have little idea of what you are talking about.

Similarly, and frighteningly so, a lady friend of mine, a college graduate, now in her late forties, once asked me about Adolf Hitler, as in "Was he the First World War or the Second World War?" Similarly 'Madonna' here is almost always a reference to the pop star rather than Christ's mother.

I believe the basic problem comes from the abolition of teaching history and geography as separate subjects in schools, now it is taught as 'social studies.' The average American cannot distinguish between Canada and Mexico on a world map and on a television programme, a survey involving a question about the U.S. Civil War, the names of the two participants were named as the 'East' and the 'West.'

Trust me, it is this bad.

Kindest regards, Richard
Absolutely no offence intended towards yourself Richard, but the comment that the average American, not only cannot find the countries that they have illegally invaded, on the map, but would have difficulty in finding their own ass with the aid of both hands and a flashlight. :D
With kind regards, Jim
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by Machaggis52 »

aethelwulf wrote:
Machaggis52 wrote:1. The 'cert' that you have shown produces no hit on the PSE cert checker.
It came up in the PSE cert checker for me.
How very odd. I am getting a message saying 'This certificate cannot be displayed'.
With kind regards, Jim
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by aethelwulf »

capetriangle wrote:on a television programme, a survey involving a question about the U.S. Civil War, the names of the two participants were named as the 'East' and the 'West.'
The participants must have mixed up the U.S. Civil War with "Epic Rap Music Battles". :roll:
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by aethelwulf »

Machaggis52 wrote:
aethelwulf wrote:
Machaggis52 wrote:1. The 'cert' that you have shown produces no hit on the PSE cert checker.
It came up in the PSE cert checker for me.
How very odd. I am getting a message saying 'This certificate cannot be displayed'.
The cert came up as its own webpage,

http://www.psestamp.com/Cert/01218045/
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by billw2 »

Machaggis52 wrote:

Two points.

1. The 'cert' that you have shown produces no hit on the PSE cert checker.

2. You have not shown the back of the stamp.

If it looks like b******t, feels like b******t and smells like b******t, then it is b******t.

May I suggest that you go and play somewhere else, and stop wasting everyone's time?

Jim,

Two points as well.....

1) ProCoin hasn't, if you've managed to keep track of time, posted on here in nearly 3 years nor visited in 2; he likely won't read your rather colorful reply.

2) I don't see him cracking open the locket to scan the back of the stamp just to please someone who's almost certainly incapable of and unwilling to purchase the stamp.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by billw2 »

Machaggis52 wrote:
capetriangle wrote:Glen

The most famous stamp here in America would be the 'upside down airplane (aeroplane).' You are right they would not know it as a #C3a or even as an 'Inverted Jenny.'

In Great Britain or Canada the term 'Penny Black' would be recognized as the world's most famous or earliest stamp. The Americans (and I have been one since 1993) would have little idea of what you are talking about.

Similarly, and frighteningly so, a lady friend of mine, a college graduate, now in her late forties, once asked me about Adolf Hitler, as in "Was he the First World War or the Second World War?" Similarly 'Madonna' here is almost always a reference to the pop star rather than Christ's mother.

I believe the basic problem comes from the abolition of teaching history and geography as separate subjects in schools, now it is taught as 'social studies.' The average American cannot distinguish between Canada and Mexico on a world map and on a television programme, a survey involving a question about the U.S. Civil War, the names of the two participants were named as the 'East' and the 'West.'

Trust me, it is this bad.

Kindest regards, Richard
Absolutely no offence intended towards yourself Richard, but the comment that the average American, not only cannot find the countries that they have illegally invaded, on the map, but would have difficulty in finding their own ass with the aid of both hands and a flashlight. :D
And this is why this board has the reputation that it's' got over here and why there's precious few Americans who either join or, more importantly, stick around.

Were I to make comments like this about Australians I wouldn't expect a warm response, would I?

Meanwhile, which universities did you get accepted to and what's your education level?
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by Machaggis52 »

aethelwulf wrote:
Machaggis52 wrote:
aethelwulf wrote:
Machaggis52 wrote:1. The 'cert' that you have shown produces no hit on the PSE cert checker.
It came up in the PSE cert checker for me.
How very odd. I am getting a message saying 'This certificate cannot be displayed'.
The cert came up as its own webpage,

http://www.psestamp.com/Cert/01218045/
Different number to the cert shown, which was 01217540.
With kind regards, Jim
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by Machaggis52 »

billw2 wrote:
Machaggis52 wrote:

Two points.

1. The 'cert' that you have shown produces no hit on the PSE cert checker.

2. You have not shown the back of the stamp.

If it looks like b******t, feels like b******t and smells like b******t, then it is b******t.

May I suggest that you go and play somewhere else, and stop wasting everyone's time?

Jim,

Two points as well.....

1) ProCoin hasn't, if you've managed to keep track of time, posted on here in nearly 3 years nor visited in 2; he likely won't read your rather colorful reply.

2) I don't see him cracking open the locket to scan the back of the stamp just to please someone who's almost certainly incapable of and unwilling to purchase the stamp.
:oops:

I keep forgetting that threads on here can 'come alive' years later. :D
With kind regards, Jim
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by Machaggis52 »

billw2 wrote:
Machaggis52 wrote:
capetriangle wrote:Glen

The most famous stamp here in America would be the 'upside down airplane (aeroplane).' You are right they would not know it as a #C3a or even as an 'Inverted Jenny.'

In Great Britain or Canada the term 'Penny Black' would be recognized as the world's most famous or earliest stamp. The Americans (and I have been one since 1993) would have little idea of what you are talking about.

Similarly, and frighteningly so, a lady friend of mine, a college graduate, now in her late forties, once asked me about Adolf Hitler, as in "Was he the First World War or the Second World War?" Similarly 'Madonna' here is almost always a reference to the pop star rather than Christ's mother.

I believe the basic problem comes from the abolition of teaching history and geography as separate subjects in schools, now it is taught as 'social studies.' The average American cannot distinguish between Canada and Mexico on a world map and on a television programme, a survey involving a question about the U.S. Civil War, the names of the two participants were named as the 'East' and the 'West.'

Trust me, it is this bad.

Kindest regards, Richard
Absolutely no offence intended towards yourself Richard, but the comment that the average American, not only cannot find the countries that they have illegally invaded, on the map, but would have difficulty in finding their own ass with the aid of both hands and a flashlight. :D
And this is why this board has the reputation that it's' got over here and why there's precious few Americans who either join or, more importantly, stick around.

Were I to make comments like this about Australians I wouldn't expect a warm response, would I?

Meanwhile, which universities did you get accepted to and what's your education level?
My nursing degree was from the City University in London, my pharmacy degree was from Edinburgh. I also have various certificates for Intensive care, Coronary care and Orthopaedic nursing. As a 'sharp end' army nurse, a high level of qualification was necessary. Why do you ask?

By the way, surely my location being in Livingston, Scotland, should have told you I'm not Australian. (Scotland is the top part of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.)
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by gavin-h »

billw2 wrote:And this is why this board has the reputation that it's' got over here and why there's precious few Americans who either join or, more importantly, stick around.
Bill, your comment does NOT hold up, as Kevin's excellent chart shows that members from the USA are joining in LARGER numbers than from anywhere else:
KevinHedley wrote:A nice increase in our membership numbers in January 2015 with 186 new members being admitted. The table and map below shows the countries represented by our members.

Image

Image

It might interest members to know where the latest members come from:

Image
So, I suggest that to use a Northern English expression, you wind your neck in.

AND a MODERATOR WARNING to all members:

NO MORE "American Bashing", or ANY OTHER kind of stereotyping against ANY nation will be tolerated here. IT STOPS NOW Thank you all in anticipation for your cooperation on this point.


Now, let's get back to the INTERESTING thing which we ALL share in common - which is talking about stamps. In this case, the "Inverted Jenny". :idea:

Taking a step down from my "high horse", it's an interesting story concerning this "locket", anyone care to suggest a REAL value?
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by Global Administrator »

Machaggis52 wrote:
How very odd. I am getting a message saying 'This certificate cannot be displayed'.
Global Administrator wrote:
Image
The Cert number seems to open up OK for me?

My gut feel is the 'Locket Copy' did not actually SELL - once again.

And yes, we have far more North American members than any other area, and always have, and as Gavin's graph shows, that stat remains constant to this day. :idea:
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by PlentyGaps »

gavin-h wrote:
Taking a step down from my "high horse", it's an interesting story concerning this "locket", anyone care to suggest a REAL value?
Let me try to answer this as a short summary is probably worthwhile. Subject to the above information being entirely factual (and I would suspect this is so).

FACT: in Y2003, the locket sold for $US90,000.
FACT: in Y2015, Stack's & Bowers - a reputable company - reported a bid at $US164,500.

It is extremely unlikely that ProCoin (whose action started this thread, and whose lively input ceased several years ago after 18 posts) will realise their asking price of $US525,000 in the near future.

I would still like to know if they actually have legitimate authority to advertise it at all! Or whether ProCoin simply uses this as cheap advertising. Or whether ProCoin hopes for a modern day business miracle.

The owner would be the only one who could shed some light on these questions.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" on ebay

Post by drkohler »

2) I don't see him cracking open the locket to scan the back of the stamp just to please someone who's almost certainly incapable of and unwilling to purchase the stamp.
Pos 9 is one of the inverts that are mint nh. However, I guess the only thing that keeps this copy "in the news" is the locket story. The stamp on its own probably is one of the poorest survivors: Straight edge copy, all four corners more or less damaged. (There is the vacuum cleaner copy but this pos 9 is basically ugly). As long as other copies (pretty much all better ones) are around, this one is not going to sell at anything even remotely to $500k.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by billw2 »

Gavin,

My comments were based on a conversation that I overheard at NOJEX as well as opinions of friends of mine. Clearly 25% of the posts aren't from Americans and were clearly not even close to 25% of regular posters.

Anyhow let's drop that.

As far as value goes, I figure somewhere around $150-200k based largely on the novelty value, if it were just a faulty straight edge copy we'd be looking around $80-100k.

Regardless of what some may think, these aren't rare. If you've got the money you could probably buy 4 or 5 of them within short order.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by aethelwulf »

billw2 wrote:Regardless of what some may think, these aren't rare. If you've got the money you could probably buy 4 or 5 of them within short order.
A well-known dealer has been quoted on the Board before (I can't remember for sure who it was) as saying, "Rare is when you walk into a shop, chequebook in hand, and no amount of money can buy what you're looking for."

Certainly the Jenny is scarce, with only 100 of them to start with; but it's understandable that there'd be a certain number available for sale at any time in dealers' stock, or held by 'investors' who will sell at the right price.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by billw2 »

aethelwulf wrote:
billw2 wrote:Regardless of what some may think, these aren't rare. If you've got the money you could probably buy 4 or 5 of them within short order.
A well-known dealer has been quoted on the Board before (I can't remember for sure who it was) as saying, "Rare is when you walk into a shop, chequebook in hand, and no amount of money can buy what you're looking for."

Certainly the Jenny is scarce, with only 100 of them to start with; but it's understandable that there'd be a certain number available for sale at any time in dealers' stock, or held by 'investors' who will sell at the right price.
Exactly.

I have a few items like that; all the money in the world won't buy them because they just don't exist. I recently bought this cover to Croatia and it's one of 3 19th century covers known to Croatia.

Find another one for sale. I dare you.

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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by fromdownunder »

aethelwulf wrote:A well-known dealer has been quoted on the Board before (I can't remember for sure who it was) as saying, "Rare is when you walk into a shop, chequebook in hand, and no amount of money can buy what you're looking for."
That was the late Simon Dunkerley.

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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by Allanswood »

Late? :shock:

Or did you mean Simon Dunkerley?
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by Global Administrator »

As I have typed MANY times over the decades, the Inverted Jenny is THE most overpriced and over-hyped stamp on this planet and has been for near 100 years.

From any other country, something with ~100 copies existing will struggle to get to 5 figures, much less 6, indeed one got almost 7 figures in USD when the US market was unusually nutty.

When we can see 18 copies at one stamp show, as I did, and others did, it is barely in the scarce level! One collector owned 20 copies until recent times.

http://www.glenstephens.com/snjanuary06.html
================
Never under-estimate the power and appeal of pizzazz and chutzpah for any large USA collectible business. Mystic will dine out for decades on this bizarre story.

It is not as if Gross will weep in sorrow at parting with his Inverted Jenny plate block. He still owns 4 other blocks of the "Inverted Jenny" from the 6 still intact! This plate block meant he owned 5 of the 6. As I reported in my last column, this stamp is not so much 'rare' - as legendary.

When I attended 'Pacific 97' in San Francisco I took a photo (and published it here) of dealer Harry Hagendorf holding up one of three BLOCKS of 4 of this stamp on his stand for sale! Another dealer had 2 copies, and a European dealer displayed yet another block of 4.

Eighteen examples on sale in one place does NOT make it 'rare' by any definition. Scarce - yes, famous - yes, but many stamps are known with only 1 or 2 copies existing. THEY are "Rare".

Nonetheless, this "glamour" stamp always gets high prices wherever offered.

The worldwide publicity BOTH pieces have achieved will do enormous good for the stamp hobby.
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billw2
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by billw2 »

Absolutely.

The Scott #78c, the Blackish Violet shade of the 24c 1861 is far rarer with 3 known u used copies (2 nice, 1 off center and with a straight edge), less than 10 on cover and about 45 used copies known, maybe 1/3 of which are sound.

$20,000 will buy a very nice one.

Heck, a sound and genuinely used #39, the 90c 1860 is $10k and less than 100 of those are known, and that stamp on cover? 5 exist and they're $3-500,000 or so.

Wait. Even though it's faulty the ONLY SURVIVING 90c 1869 (122) on cover sold for $375,000 plus juice.

So yeah, $500k for a C3a is stupidity but it's like many other collectibles, rarity doesn't dictate price.

A 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air convertible is 10-20x as common as a 1957 Oldsmobile or Pontiac convertible and they're worth far less.

A 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is one of the Baseball Cards in that set that was printed in twice the normal quantities yet it's by far the most valuable.
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by Global Administrator »

billw2 wrote: So yeah, $500k for a C3a is stupidity but it's like many other collectibles, rarity doesn't dictate price.
And $US1 million is dumber still, but someone there fell for it! Seller was a member here actually. :mrgreen:

https://www.glenstephens.com/snseptember07.html
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Dealer sells stamp for a million dollars.


According to the August 13 “Linn's Stamp News” he did anyway. The dealer is a member of stampboards.com - Jay Parrino from Kansas.

Apparently he sold it to someone in the entertainment business for $US1,000,000. It was a MUH USA 1918 24c “Inverted Jenny” airmail.

In this case the numerical grade of 80 is not important (not a high grade at all) .. being MUH original gum is what was the selling point I deduced.

Scott catalogue for a MUH single is $US375,000 in VF grade (80) which this is, so the buyer appears to have paid about triple Scott.

I understand this is THE highest price paid for any USA stamp, at any time – just beating the figure obtained at auction for the famous 1868 1c “Z Grill.” (Although the owner of that paid $US2.97million for the block 4 he swapped that for!)

The “Z Grill” sold at auction in 1998 for $US935,000, and like the British Guiana 1c, and the Swedish “Tre Skilling Yellow” would all get MUCH more than $1 million each if sold today.

This “Inverted Jenny” just sold was number 68 in the one sheet of 100 discovered. This stamp is not especially “rare” – just famous."
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Re: USA 1918 24c "Inverted Jenny" stamp on ebay

Post by billw2 »

Glen,

It's also since resold for $500K at Siegel in 2013 I think it was.

Furthermore, that stamp is overgraded; that's a maybe F-VF 75 as it's centered too far to the bottom to be a Very Fine. Were a dealer to offer that ungraded as a "VF" I'm not sure how well it would be received.
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