Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by gavin-h »

Berlin-Gus wrote:Community Mail Boxes are a large group of mail boxes located throughout a community. Postal patron's need to go to them to fetch their mail rather than a mail carrier dropping mail of at the patron's house.

The attached picture shows the community mail boxes at Bolsover, Ontario. Bolsover is a small rural community in Victoria County (Ontario)

Image
Well, they're an attractive addition to any urban landscape. NOT!!!

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by BarryM »

gavin-h wrote:
AMark wrote:I was just at a PO and all the "P" Permanent stamps are no longer available for sale.
Is it just me that laughed uncontrollably at that sentence?

It's right up there with "have you seen the invisible thread?" :lol: :lol: :lol:
To be fair, the stamps are still permanently good for first class mail -- they just aren't permanently on sale.

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by philcovex2 »

AMark wrote:
I was just at a PO and all the "P" Permanent stamps are no longer available for sale.

Is it just me that laughed uncontrollably at that sentence?

It's right up there with "have you seen the invisible thread?" :lol: :lol: :lol:
I appreciate English and Scottish humour - I get Little Britain, The Thick of It, Big School, etc. , but why you would find the statement dealing with P stamps hilarious is simply beyond my comprehension.

To me it reads like this:

"I was was just at my Royal Mail PO and all the 1st stamps are no longer available for sale."

What am I missing Gavin?

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by norvic »

Pending regulatory approval, these proposed changes will be implemented March 31, 2014.
Surely they mean, "Subject to regulatory approval...." "Pending..." means, "we will implement these changes on March 31 while we are waiting for (retrospective) regulatory approval."

Unless they already do it, look to Canada Post's parcels business to move to size-weight-based pricing, like the UK, meaning that large light-weight items cost more to send than small heavy.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by gavin-h »

philcovex2 wrote:
AMark wrote:
I was just at a PO and all the "P" Permanent stamps are no longer available for sale.

Is it just me that laughed uncontrollably at that sentence?

It's right up there with "have you seen the invisible thread?" :lol: :lol: :lol:
I appreciate English and Scottish humour - I get Little Britain, The Thick of It, Big School, etc. , but why you would find the statement dealing with P stamps hilarious is simply beyond my comprehension.

To me it reads like this:

"I was was just at my Royal Mail PO and all the 1st stamps are no longer available for sale."

What am I missing Gavin?
My twisted mind read it like this: "The permanent stamps are not as permanent as we thought they would be".

I guess it's just me - if I'd joined the army, I'd be the only one in the company who marched in step :wink:

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by philcovex2 »

Gavin

It makes sense now. But it is likely that the "P" stamps issued before March 31, 2014, i.e., those currently withdrawn, will be re-introduced for sale at 85 cents rather than 63 cents. They will still be Permanent!

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by mikeg »

I am looking forward to all the new postal forgeries that will be appearing :lol: :roll:

Since all the top management at Canada Post are our present dictators cronies, the 'approval' process for these changes has doubtless already been completed :twisted:

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Global Administrator »

Ken Lemke wrote:
With HST (Harmonized sales tax) of 13 per cent, the full cost of a domestic stamp will be $0.96 unless you just buy one and then it will be $1.13.

Cheers
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So even now a P stamp does not cost 63c .. but 63c PLUS taxes??

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Allanswood »

philcovex2 wrote:Gavin

It makes sense now. But it is likely that the "P" stamps issued before March 31, 2014, i.e., those currently withdrawn, will be re-introduced for sale at 85 cents rather than 63 cents. They will still be Permanent!


It's odd when something "permanent" is unavailable. Good old English. "We are always open except for Christmas Day". So no, your not actually always open are you?

I was reading a red book about reeds that I was asked to read. Having now read it, it is a good read and should be read by everyone.


Reminds me of the British road sign, shown on "Top Gear", that said "This sign is not in use." :lol:
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by AMark »

Global Administrator wrote:
Ken Lemke wrote:
With HST (Harmonized sales tax) of 13 per cent, the full cost of a domestic stamp will be $0.96 unless you just buy one and then it will be $1.13.

Cheers
Ken
So even now a P stamp does not cost 63c .. but 63c PLUS taxes??
Yes, in Ontario 13% HST (Harmonized Sales Tax) is added. So a 63¢ stamp costs 71¢.

I should add that taxes vary between provinces.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by philcovex2 »

It's odd when something "permanent" is unavailable. Good old English. "We are always open except for Christmas Day". So no, your not actually always open are you?
I think the term "Permanent" needs to be understood. Canada Post has provided this explanation:

The PERMANENT™ stamp, identified with the letter P in place of a value, is always accepted at the current domestic postage price. So if you buy a PERMANENT stamp today, you can still use it in at any time in the future—no more 1 cent stamps when the postal rates increase.

Canada Post can terminate the Permanent programme if it wants to but Permanent Stamps purchased to date will have to be honoured by Canada Post "at the current domestic postage price". I expect that my permanent stamps will be recognized as if they were 85 cents on March 31, 2014. If Canada Post breaches its contractual obligation then a class action suit can be expected. It would be great publicity for a litigation lawyer looking to make a reputation.

I think that posters are confusing "availability" with "lifespan". Permanent has never meant that these stamps would be available for purchase forever. However, an owner of a permanent stamp has the assurance that regardless of the rate changes, the stamp will be honoured at the current domestic postage price whenever the owner decides to affix the stamp to an envelope for mailing.

Canada Post may attempt to renege on its commitment but as I pointed out above, they will have a tough legal battle on their hands. I suspect that on March 31, 2014, all "P" stamps now being embargoed will be repriced to 85 cents. At that time, Canada Post may announce the end of the Permanent programme, i.e. no further P stamps will be printed but pre-existing P stamps will honoured.


To conclude, permanent does not mean that the stamps will be permanently SOLD by Canada Post but that they will be permanently HONOURED AT THE CURRENT DOMESTIC POSTAGE PRICE. We have probably seen the last of any newly printed "P" stamps.

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by drseg »

Another interesting point in the proposal for a "new" Canada Post is that there will be less philatelic products available in post offices; it is however mentioned that these will still be available online. Looking at the number of these "philatelic products" produced by Canada Post in recent years (i.e., souvenir sheets, souvenir packs, postcards, uncut sheets, etc...) I always wondered who buy all these and how their production can be profitable.

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Allanswood »

philcovex2 wrote:
It's odd when something "permanent" is unavailable. Good old English. "We are always open except for Christmas Day". So no, your not actually always open are you?
I think the term "Permanent" needs to be understood. Canada Post has provided this explanation:

The PERMANENT™ stamp, identified with the letter P in place of a value, is always accepted at the current domestic postage price. So if you buy a PERMANENT stamp today, you can still use it in at any time in the future—no more 1 cent stamps when the postal rates increase. etc etc.
That was the point of our play on words in red... you can't buy one today can you? :D
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by aethelwulf »

AMark wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:
So even now a P stamp does not cost 63c .. but 63c PLUS taxes??
Yes, in Ontario 13% HST (Harmonized Sales Tax) is added. So a 63¢ stamp costs 71¢.

I should add that taxes vary between provinces.[/quote]
Of course with no penny now, the rounding rule makes the stamp "only" 70 cents...

The whole GST/HST thing is such a confusion...Alberta for instance has never had a provincial sales tax. So stamps are cheaper in one province than another, government logic...you could make money while on holiday, taking advantage of "low tax regimes". Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where they tried to find a way to profitably take empty soda cans to Michigan to collect the deposit--worth 5 cents in New York, but 10 cents in Michigan.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by aethelwulf »

gavin-h wrote:
Berlin-Gus wrote:Image
Well, they're an attractive addition to any urban landscape. NOT!!!
The next few years will probably see mass outbreaks of NIMBY-ism (I guess in this case it would be NIMFY-ism). This is why the boxes were only installed in new residential developments, the architects could set aside a street corner for the boxes...where to put them in an older neighbourhood with houses packed close together, small front lawns. Will one person draw the short straw and get them stuck in front of their house, ruining the view from the living room window, and probably bringing down the house value a bit? A commenter on CBC suggested they could be placed in front of churches, along with utility boxes, to "complete the wall of ugliness".
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by mikeg »

Those boxes look pretty good :D

Normally after a couple of winters the cement pads have shifted, so all the boxes are at crazy angles, and since now the snow has to be cleared away from them, they have all been whacked by the plows a few times :roll:

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by philcovex2 »

That was the point of our play on words in red... you can't buy one today can you?
Actually I purchased a lot of them today at my local postal outlet. But that is beside the point. I would be laughing my head off at your joke (well perhaps smile) if at any time Canada Post had announced that "Permanent" stamps would ALWAYS be on sale. That's not what they said when the stamps were first issued in 2006.

Your comment though has reminded me of the Simpson's episode when Homer was kicked out of the ALL YOU CAN EAT restaurant for eating too much. He had this conversation with his lawyer Lionel Hutz:

Homer: All you can eat--hah!
Hutz: Mr. Simpson, this is the most blatant case of fraudulent advertising since my suit against the film, “The Never-Ending Story.”
Homer: Do you think I have a case?
Hutz: Now, Homer, I don't use the term “hero” very often. But you are the greatest hero in American history.

Fortunately for lawyers, the English language is marvelously ambiguous.

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by BarryM »

I was just perusing the Dec edition of Stanley Gibbons Monthly and there on the inside cover is a full age advertisement from Canada Post for the Prince George issue--which is a P stamp. So Canada Post spent a bundle advertising an issue that has been withdrawn while the issue with the ad is still on the stands.

I think it's clear that this was a very quick, almost panicked decision by Canada Post since they certainly weren't thinking ahead.

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by aethelwulf »

philcovex2 wrote:Your comment though has reminded me of the Simpson's episode when Homer was kicked out of the ALL YOU CAN EAT restaurant for eating too much.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Stewie1980 »

gavin-h wrote:
Berlin-Gus wrote:Community Mail Boxes are a large group of mail boxes located throughout a community. Postal patron's need to go to them to fetch their mail rather than a mail carrier dropping mail of at the patron's house.

The attached picture shows the community mail boxes at Bolsover, Ontario. Bolsover is a small rural community in Victoria County (Ontario)

Image
Well, they're an attractive addition to any urban landscape. NOT!!!
How long do these boxes survive?

Here in Western Europe these would be vandalised or robbed empty in no time!

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by librarianc »

Gavin, Gavin, Gavin..... :roll: :lol:
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by aethelwulf »

Stewie1980 wrote:How long do these boxes survive?

Here in Western Europe these would be vandalised or robbed empty in no time!
A lot of people talk about the boxes being broken into. Each box has its own lock & key; however, the posties fill the boxes by opening the entire front panel at once, so thieves crack it open that way. There are stories of how "coincidentally" the boxes would be robbed the same day government tax rebate cheques were delivered for instance... :roll: ("Fortunately", most people now get their refunds deposited directly to their bank accounts :oops:)
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Ken Lemke »

The proposed first class rate for mail to the USA is $1.20 (up from $1.10). With tax cost will be $1.35 in Ontario.

First class International rate will be $2.50 (up from$1.85). With tax the cost will be $2.83 in Ontario, and since we have no penny, I assume the Government will round up to $2.85 (I doubt if they will round down).

I'd be curious to know what is the cost of a first class letter to Canada from other countries.

Cheers
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by AMark »

Stewie1980 wrote:
gavin-h wrote:
Berlin-Gus wrote:Community Mail Boxes are a large group of mail boxes located throughout a community. Postal patron's need to go to them to fetch their mail rather than a mail carrier dropping mail of at the patron's house.

The attached picture shows the community mail boxes at Bolsover, Ontario. Bolsover is a small rural community in Victoria County (Ontario)

Image
Well, they're an attractive addition to any urban landscape. NOT!!!
How long do these boxes survive?

Here in Western Europe these would be vandalised or robbed empty in no time!
I think it depends on the neighbourhood. In the area I live in, they were replaced last year. There was nothing wrong with them but, they were replaced. I think it was a waste of funds.

Anyway, I like these graffiti style street letter boxes.

Image
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by philcovex2 »

These is a neighbourhood mailbox in a suburb northwest of Toronto.

Image

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by BarryM »

philcovex2 wrote:These is a neighbourhood mailbox in a suburb northwest of Toronto.

Image
The small grouping are much more typical of what I see in the Greater Vancouver area of British Columbia.

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by brcStamps »

philcovex2 wrote:
Canada Post can terminate the Permanent programme if it wants to but Permanent Stamps purchased to date will have to be honoured by Canada Post "at the current domestic postage price". I expect that my permanent stamps will be recognized as if they were 85 cents on March 31, 2014. If Canada Post breaches its contractual obligation then a class action suit can be expected. It would be great publicity for a litigation lawyer looking to make a reputation.
I suspect they can cap them at 63c and force users to add 22c postage for the 85c rate, or even 37c for the $1 rate. One rumour I heard from a postal clerk in a Vancouver area was that only stamps issued after the March increase will qualify for the 85c rate. Older stamps used on mail would have to add up to $1. It does sound a bit far fetched, but you never know...
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Wayne1951 »

Went to the Canada Post Office in the local drug store today and was told they had no stamps at all. They were told to send everything back. Had to use a machine label.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Canada stamper »

I just bought 2 booklets of definitives tonight from a pharmacy. I guess since they are not an official postal outlet but just sell stamps over the counter, they didn't get the notice to send the stamps back. I would stock up but they didn't have any commemorative stamp booklets and I don't like using definitives on my philatelic mail. These will be for the small amount of business mail I send out.

For the volume of mail I send out, I would not save a huge amount of money by stockpiling. However I can see how costs would go up significantly for businesses.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by gavin-h »

librarianc wrote:Gavin, Gavin, Gavin..... :roll: :lol:
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by aethelwulf »

brcStamps wrote:I suspect they can cap them at 63c and force users to add 22c postage for the 85c rate, or even 37c for the $1 rate. One rumour I heard from a postal clerk in a Vancouver area was that only stamps issued after the March increase will qualify for the 85c rate. Older stamps used on mail would have to add up to $1. It does sound a bit far fetched, but you never know...
I read the announcement as:

The postage rate will be 85cents, but if you only buy 1 stamp instead of a complete booklet, they'll charge you $1 for that $0.85 stamp, as sort of a 'handling charge'.

There would be no way for the sorting office to differentiate between stamps bought at $0.85 and stamps bought at $1.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by brcStamps »

aethelwulf wrote: There would be no way for the sorting office to differentiate between stamps bought at $0.85 and stamps bought at $1.
It could be the reverse - the stamps will have a face value of $1, but if you buy booklets or rolls, you will be charged 85c each for the $1 stamps.

What has not been announced is the minimum amount purchased to get the discount. Most booklets have 10 stamps, and rolls have 50. Will the clerks tear off two stamps from a roll and charge the 85c rate or do you have to buy the whole roll? It will be very interesting to see how this is all implemented.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Global Administrator »

BarryM wrote:
philcovex2 wrote:These is a neighbourhood mailbox in a suburb northwest of Toronto.

Image
The small grouping are much more typical of what I see in the Greater Vancouver area of British Columbia.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by stephane »

Recycling box. You can take your junk mail and put it directly in there without having to lug it home! I have seen several different types of these.

I used to have a community mail box just like those pictured here, and a few times I have found the large door (which gives the delivery person access to all the insides of the boxes) was left open, or unlocked.

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by mikeg »

That's the recycling box for all the junk Mail :roll:

Also generally used by the dog walkers who are picking up their mail :P

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by brcStamps »

mikeg wrote:That's the recycling box for all the junk Mail :roll:

Also generally used by the dog walkers who are picking up their mail :P
:lol:
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Global Administrator »

mikeg wrote:

Also generally used by the dog walkers who are picking up their mail :P
So the poor schmuck who has these rows of boxes on their sidewalk also has one part filled with doggy doo?? GREAT. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :roll:

Do you get a say if they dump these boxes in front of your place - the photo above looks like of a quiet suburban street.

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by brcStamps »

Global Administrator wrote: Do you get a say if they dump these boxes in front of your place - the photo above looks like of a quiet suburban street.
The boxes were only in new sub-divisions built after the policy was implemented, so when the house was bought, you knew the boxes were there. Older areas still get home delivery (for now).
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by mikeg »

There is a small park at the end of my street where the mail box is now, so I assume these will go there when they put them in.

Same applies where my parents live, so no issues there :D

In other areas, it will be interesting to see what happens :wink:

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by stephane »

Were I lived some time ago (Fournier, Ontario, a small village of about 50 houses) the post office was closed in the early 1990s. They then installed these community boxes in front of the village park, which was an area chosen so that no one would be bothered by stopping cars, etc. Often saw people congregating there to chat when they picked up their mail. They did this in many other places where post offices were closed. Not sure if Canada Post asked anyone before installing them in that particular place, but it was very well chosen in this case. I also remember the recycling box overflowing with junk mail (and not dog doo-doo).

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by aethelwulf »

brcStamps wrote:
aethelwulf wrote: There would be no way for the sorting office to differentiate between stamps bought at $0.85 and stamps bought at $1.
It could be the reverse - the stamps will have a face value of $1, but if you buy booklets or rolls, you will be charged 85c each for the $1 stamps.
It would be interesting to see a post office that sells stamps for below face value. :shock: Thought only stamp dealers do that with old scrap mint for postage.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by BarryM »

brcStamps wrote:
aethelwulf wrote: There would be no way for the sorting office to differentiate between stamps bought at $0.85 and stamps bought at $1.
It could be the reverse - the stamps will have a face value of $1, but if you buy booklets or rolls, you will be charged 85c each for the $1 stamps.

What has not been announced is the minimum amount purchased to get the discount. Most booklets have 10 stamps, and rolls have 50. Will the clerks tear off two stamps from a roll and charge the 85c rate or do you have to buy the whole roll? It will be very interesting to see how this is all implemented.
I strongly suspect that the new stamps will simply be a non-demoninated first class stamp, perhaps even using the existing "P" logo, since it's already familiar to consumers.

As for the amount to get the discount -- it would make sense that if you purchase an entire booklet, coil roll, or pane you get the discounted rate (worked into the price of the booklet/roll). If someone needs an individual stamp from a pane, you pay the higher price. This would certainly be the easiest way to handle the accounting.

As for the sorting office, given that over half of my stamped mail arrives unconcealed, I doubt they are checking the values of the stamps used on ordinary first class mail. On a larger parcel or a large mail out, perhaps they will, but if they can't even hit the thing with a canceller, they obviously are not that concerned about revenue protection.

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Stewie1980 »

Canada is not alone when it comes to high increasings:

Philippines 2013: P7.00 > P10.00 (42.9%)
Canada 2014: $0.63 > $0.85 (34.9%)
UK 2012: £0.46 > £0.60 (30.4%)
Hong Kong 2013: $1.40 > $1.70 (21.4%)
Italy 2013: €0.60 > €0.70 (16.7%)
Argentina 1-1-2013: $3.00 > $3.50 (16.7%)
Argentina mid 2013: $3.50 > $4.00 (14.3%)

Netherlands is a funny story, well, funny untill I get the bill for the annual collection... :(

2007-2010: €0.44
1-1-2011: €0.46 (4.5%)
1-1-2012: €0.50 (8.7%)
1-1-2013: €0.54 (8%)
1-8-2013: €0.60 (11.1%)
1-1-2014: €0.64 (6.7%)

I wonder how long the €0.64 will last...

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by aethelwulf »

Hong Kong raised rates 1st October (and this month for registration, from $13 to $15.50, along with things like PO box rentals).

The rate increases were the first for about a decade. :shock: There's the local rate, $1.40 to $1.70; then the first-step airmail, $3 to $3.70. Considering there hasn't been an increase for ages, it averages out.

Thailand did a rate increase a couple/few years ago, increasing the domestic rate 50%--2baht to 3baht...but it had sat at 2baht for probably half the reign of Rama IX. :lol:
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by librarianc »

mikeg wrote:That's the recycling box for all the junk Mail :roll:

Also generally used by the dog walkers who are picking up their mail :P
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by aethelwulf »

Well that solves the problem of "who's front lawn do we grace with the boxes?"...put an enormous long row of them on a main road with no houses apparently in sight...those boxes must serve a big chunk of a suburb subdivision.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Allanswood »

I notice that the personal boxes don't have "no junk mail" stickers on them? Can't you say no?


If I was in Canada though, that pile of paper would soon be keeping me warm at night by the fire.
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by The Pom »

What's the typical home > box > home distance for these community mail boxes?
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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by librarianc »

The Pom wrote:What's the typical home > box > home distance for these community mail boxes?
Unfortunately (or fortunately right now as we have have several cm. of snow) they are right at the edge of my property (not the above image, thank you :roll: :lol: ) We are now at the edge of a major subdivision.

We do find a bit more traffic because of them and we are expected to keep the sidewalks clear to the box. Canada Post does clear the snow from the immediate box placement, but as the adjacent property owner, we are expected to keep access clear.

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Re: Canada Post to phase out urban home mail delivery

Post by Allanswood »

3 beers and a poo.

In the dead of winter, 2 weeks and take a epurb locater beacon.
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